1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

an old school pal of mine used to gather with some friends at the Petöfi memorial in TM on the occasion.
is there any special greeting formula in hungarian for the day? i'd send him a SMS.

Nothing special. Perhaps the first line of Petofi's poem, Nemzeti Dal (Song of the Nation), and easy to spell :
"Talpra magyar!"

Gen. Dénes

thank you. apparently it was well received

Talpra magyar means "Sus, maghiare!". It is a part of a liric from a famous poem called Nemzeti dal, written by slav origin hungarian Petofi Sandor (Alexander Petrovici in his birth certificate), one of the promoter of hungarian revolution and one of those who was a fierce enemy of romanians.

One can find below the poem in hungarian original language and the translation in english.

Nemzeti dal

Talpra magyar, hí a haza!
Itt az idő, most vagy soha!
Rabok legyünk vagy szabadok?
Ez a kérdés, válasszatok! –
A magyarok istenére
Esküszünk,
Esküszünk, hogy rabok tovább
Nem leszünk!

Rabok voltunk mostanáig,
Kárhozottak ősapáink,
Kik szabadon éltek-haltak,
Szolgaföldben nem nyughatnak.
A magyarok istenére
Esküszünk,
Esküszünk, hogy rabok tovább
Nem leszünk!

Sehonnai bitang ember,
Ki most, ha kell, halni nem mer,
Kinek drágább rongy élete,
Mint a haza becsülete.
A magyarok istenére
Esküszünk,
Esküszünk, hogy rabok tovább
Nem leszünk!

The National Song

On your feet, Magyar, the homeland calls!
The time is here, now or never!
Shall we be slaves or free?
This is the question, choose your answer! -
By the God of the Hungarians
We vow,
We vow, that we will be slaves
No longer!

We were slaves up til now,
Damned are our ancestors,
Who lived and died free,
Cannot rest in a slave land.
By the God of the Hungarians
We vow,
We vow, that we will be slaves
No longer!

Useless villain of a man,
Who now, if need be, doesn't dare to die,
Who values his pathetic life greater
Than the honor of his homeland.
By the God of the Hungarians
We vow,
We vow, that we will be slaves
No longer!

This post has been edited by 21 inf on March 19, 2010 07:35 pm

Very good 21 inf,
I appreciate the translation which is very interesting! From the stories of my history teacher from high school, this poem was often associated with revisionist hungarian propaganda anti-Trianon (as child he was living in Bihor county, somewhere near Salonta, so he lived the cession of northern Transylvania in 1940) in the '40s, and more recently in the '90s, but this doesn't mean that the poetry bears some blame from that.

Thank you, 21 inf, for your translation. It is very instructive, after all.

Thank you, 21inf, for posting the poem also in English, so everyone can understand it.

Nemzeti Dal is not a simple poem, it's at the core of Hungarian mentiality and self-awarness. Due to this paramount importance, I started my book on the Royal Hungarian Army, published in Prague, Czech Republic [see: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=4425] with this very poem (in both languages).

Here is what I've written about this poem in the preamble of the aforementioned book: "The national importance of the poem ‘Nemzeti dal’ (Song of the Nation) – reverberating even today throughout the whole Hungarian nation, which comprises all ethnic Magyars within Hungary’s borders and abroad, regardless of their current citizenships – wrote by the Magyars’ most prominent national poet, Sándor Petöfi, on the eve of the Hungarian Revolution of 1848, can be compared to the meaning of what 'La Marseillaise' has for the French people."

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 20, 2010 07:43 am

Petofi was of slavic origin as much as the Rumanians' national poet Mihai(l) Eminescu (born Eminovici) was.
By the way, his family name, at birth, was Petrovics, not Petrovici.

Of paramount importance to understand him is that Petofi was not only a brilliant and prolific poet, but also a revolutionary, a patriot and warrior, who died in battle against the Russians, near Segesvar (Sighisoara, Schäßburg), Central Transylvania, when only 26.

As for Petofi being anti-Rumanian, can you give us some proof? I haven't read anything in his writings backing this allegation.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 20, 2010 08:13 am

nor did I. we even had some of Petöfis poems back in school.

Petofi was of slavic origin as much as the Rumanians' national poet Mihai(l) Eminescu (born Eminovici) was.
By the way, his family name, at birth, was Petrovics, not Petrovici.

Yes, his birth certificate stated his name as Petrovics, not Petrovici, it was my tipo fault.

His parents were of serb and slovac origins, so Petofi was not hungarian born ethnic. Anyway, even if so, I didnt intented to be malicious, just stated a known fact. It is Petofi's problem if he wanted to declare himself hungarian, despite his slavic roots.

It is not the case of Eminescu's parents, who were romanian ethnics, with slavised family name (Eminovici), wich is in use even nowadays to some romanians living in Ukraine or Bessarabia.

The greatest biographer of Eminescu, great scholar G. Calinescu, debated his origins, showing that Eminescu was romanian, eliminating with proves the acusations that Eminescu was turkish, armenian, polish, ukrainian or whatsoever some told during time.

The same slavic origins as Petofi (slovac) had the leader of hungarian revolution, Kossuth Lajos. His family, altough having a small hungarian nobility title, was of slovac origins. The name of Kossuth's mother was Karoline Weber, of german descendents. The uncle of Kossuth, Juraj Košút, was a strong slovac patriot and nationalist, as some (not me) are saying. Kossuth Lajos considered himself hungarian and acted acordingly during his life.

This info are only for the record, not being intended to create "waves". If this info are wrong, it would be for everybody's benefit to be corected, for a better understanding of common hungarian-romanian events from 1848-1849.

This whole debate of someone's ethnic roots is irrelevant.
One is whatever he/she declares he/she is and acts accordingly.

Gen. Dénes

What one consider him/herself to be, it's his/her own problem. If Petofi and Kossuth were of slovac origins, but declared themselfes hungarians, I dont care, as I said before. It's just historical reality and information.

Also only for historical acuracy, from all 13 generals from hungarian army from 1848-1849 only a few were hungarians by born. The others (most of them) were other nationalities which joined hungarian army. I also dont care what they considered themselfes.

But for historical acuracy, when celebrated at Arad, Romania, each year, it would be corect to be said about (at least for a part of) them that they were generals in hungarian army, not hungarian generals, just for the care not to be confused that austrians executed 13 high ranking hungarians: austrians executed a number of austrians, germans, a serb, a croat-turkish, at least one of romanian roots and some hungarians who joined hungarian army in 1848. Some of the 13 generals were previously profesional soldiers in austrian army and were executed by austrians (as stated in their death sentences) for breaking their oath as soldiers for the austrian emperor and fighting for a foreign armed force.

I say again that I dont want to heat the spirits, I am only curious how one of other origin as hungarian can join with so enthusiasm to a national revolution, not only for freedom purposes. And if this revolution was really for freedom purposes, why to fight other nations as serbs, croats, romanians and others and not only with austrians and eventually with russians? Serbs, croats, romanians and other nations from 1848-1849 wanted only their own freedom, they wanted as much as hungarians to be free of austrian rule.

apparently the hungarian cause appealed to many back then, to a degree that some choose to become hungarians. the germans in banat were also divided on the issue.

That's exacty the point. The ideals of revolution, liberty and independent statehood appealed to many people, irrespective of their ethnicity (including most Rumanians from mainland Hungary and some from Transylvania). That's why they joined the Hungarian Revolution (even if some were not Hungarian ethnics), fought and many died for it"s ideals.

When talking about an army, one should not mix ethnicity with the uniform the soldiers wear. Everyone enrolled in a particular army is a soldier of that country. For example, when I was drafted in the Rumanian army, I wasn't a Hungarian soldier, but a Rumanian one, wasn't I?

This having been said, the martyr Generals executed by the Austrians near Arad you are referring to were Hungarian Generals, not by their ethnicity, but by their loyalty and paid the ultimate price for it. Questioning this is rather preposterous.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 21, 2010 10:24 am

It would be great if those generals executed at Arad would be remembered as hungarian generals, not as hungarian ethnics.

Denes, can you detail a little more about the most romanians from mainland Hungary who adhered to hungarian revolution? And about the few from Transylvania who did the same? I refere only by those who joined hungarian revolution by free will, not drafted by force. In romanian books there are virtually no reference about them, at least from my knowledge.

In romanian history works there are speaking only about hungarians who adhered to romanian transylvanian revolution and one have to recognise that their number was very small. Those transylvanian hungarians adhered to romanian revolution by personal reasons and hardly can be considered as a general intention. Only those who make propaganda can consider a big deal their joining to romanian landsturm.

It will be usefull to know this aspects in order to learn more about 1848-1849 revolutions, both hungarian (from Hungary and Transylvania) and romanian (from Transylvania).