1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

Aidan Zea, because, honestly speaking, I do not expect you to read books dedicated to 1848/1849 revolution/civil war/ written by non-Hungarian authors, noting your lack of interest in asking 21inf about such books, I will mention a few facts which can be verified also from Hungarian sources, waiting for your comments to the subject, and not moving the conversation on other topics, as you did with 21inf!
In Hungary, since the late 18th century, begins a great movement of awakening national consciousness. This phenomenon occurs especially when the measure taken by Emperor Joseph the IInd to introduce German as the official language instead of Latin, hitherto used as the official language. By setting the Hungarian Academy, the National Theatre and the University of Pest the century ideas are spreading more and more among the Hungarian public opinion. But under the influence of the radical current of the Liberal Party, the Hungarian nationalism is becoming intolerant towards nationalities. The first stage is in 1836 when the Diet decides the introduction of Hungarian language in administration and justice. That same year is decided the establishment of a Hungarian-language department at the Romanian Preparandia first Romanian pedagogical school (to prepare teachers and priests), establishment delayed by Romanians, but immediately imposed in the spring of 1848 by the Hungarian Government by a law! Few years later, by 1839, the Diet decides that Hungarian language should be used as well as in the correspondence between the church and civil authorities! Trough this law it was established the obligation that until 1843 the church registration books must be written in Hungarian, being irrelevant whether the churches were Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant or the parishioners were ethnic Hungarians or other nationalities! This measure produced a strong reaction in the Non-Magyar communities from Hungary, but the law was not amended despite strong protests! The measure is strengthened by the decision of the Diet from 1843, to introduce Hungarian as the language of instruction in all schools (including schools of the nationalities!) where, until then, the serbian or romanian language was used! By 1847 the Liberal Party began to prevail in political life of Hungary. The ideal of the liberals was to assimilate the other nations living in Hungary, being freely expressed the fact that a strong Hungarian nation could be imposed free in this part of Europe only in this way! The foremost representative of this trend will be precisely Lajos Kossuth, the future leader of the Hungarian Revolution! He managed to be elected deputy of Pest in the Diet of Poszony (Bratislava), where he advocated exactly this ideas, consequently attracting more and more supporters! The Poszony Diet debates from January 1848 and the statements of Kossuth were presented in detail in the newspaper "Gazeta de Transilvania" and which if you want I can also present later!

The sessions of the Poszony Diet from January 1848 are relevant to understand on whose hands has reached Hungary between March 1848 and August 1849! The diet session agenda had three points: 1. the assimilation of nationalities into the Hungarian nation, 2. the abolition of separate status of Croatia and Slovenia, 3. the union of Transylvania with Hungary. All this points were strongly sustained by Kossuth, which in the diet session of 14 January, speaks for an hour and a half on the Transylvanian problem, obtaining the adhesion of both parties! On the first point it is relevant the fact that in the diet session of 7 January, Kossuth accused the government of failing to introduce the Hungarian language in all the nationalities schools, and that in the border regiments the Hungarian language is known by almost nobody! In the next day session Kossuth requires the establishment by law of the obligation that ritual religious books to be translated into Hungarian, and in the Ortodox Churches should hold religious services in Hungarian instead of Greek, Slavonic or Romanian language! The opposition newspaper "Pesti Hirlap" had criticize the radical positions of Kossuth, expressing the right of nationalities to language and education, but keeping Hungarian statehood! But by the pressure of the Liberals the Hungarian language law has been adopted, imposing Hungarian as the official language in schools and churches, the strongest reaction would came very soon from the South Slavs (Croats and Serbs).

The discussion is steering towards an aggressive tone. Please keep it calm.

Andreas, I know the events you described above but I have a different understanding of them of them as you two (taking into account 21inf too!) have! But I understand also the one of yours, being normal from your perspective! Without giving me superior, as as a member of a minoritary national community, I understand perfectly how the Romanians felt back then, knowing the fact that they were not recognized as a nation, they did not had the support of any great power and/or neighboring country, were poorly represented in the Diet or in the Transylvanian nobility... but all these were changed (in spring 1848) or were about to change soon (after the success of Hungarian Revolution)! Why do I say that? I have read about a discussion of Prime Minister Batthyány with Kossuth in early October 1848 about ongoing events in Transylvania, the military rebellion of Colonel Urban, the Romanians arming process and their military organization and the peasant movements of northern Transylvania. In this last problem the Prime Minister said to Kossuth that he was informed that in the Inner-Szolnok and Doboka counties hungarian and romanian peasants rebelled and even Hungarians from Zsibo act together against properties of Baron Miklós Wesselényi, the authorities lacking any possibility to restore order because military units of the Imperial Army voluntarily withdrew towards Cluj and national guards disbanded! He informed Kossuth that he was demanded for military aid and did not know what to do. Kossuth said that it is necessary to find a peaceful solution, that is understandable that peasants so long kept in misery and exploited to rebel, still seeing the nobility still rule the country, but he can not remove these noblemen as he like because they are the ones who own land, power and money! This is the true Kossuth, but he did not have time to change the country's leadership, under the maneuvers of the Imperial camarilla, the war in the south, Count Josip Jelačić and his army invading Hungary, a.o. So I say that Romanian revolution from Transylvania fallen into the arms of the Imperial camarilla had sufficient reasons to do so, the nobility from Transylvania (mostly Hungarian) maintaining their positions in leading the province and repressing with brutality the social and national movements which bothered them! But the Hungarian revolutionary government showed enough willingness to negotiate with all the nationalities which were not too interested because they felt they would be supported by the Emperor and will easily get whatever they want! So happened in Transylvania as it happened before in Croatia!

This post has been edited by aidan zea on January 12, 2013 10:17 pm

Aidan, if you want to have a profesional discussion and a scientific one, please suport your statements in the following manner, to avoid misundertandings: for example, when you say "Hungarian revolutionary government showed enough willingness to negotiate with all the nationalities" please present a DOCUMENT (or a precise reference, not an entire book!). When you state "which were not too interested because they felt they would be supported by the Emperor and will easily get whatever they want" please DO THE SAME.

In this fashion everything will be clear and we can talk.

Aidan, it's normal to think like that from a logical and common sense perspective, and not of a nationality or another perspective! Facts are facts, you can not interpret them differently, unless you are malevolent!

I am interested in a proof in this respect (a document, a meeting, anything!) before October 1848 from the Hungarian revolutionary government or its authorized representatives!

It's a novelty for me as I know that Count Jelacic was at one time outlawed by the Emperor (which I don't know have happened with Comitetul National Roman from Sibiu) and later to be recognized as army commander in Hungary, while the Romanian revolutionary leaders never received firm promises from the Emperor until end 1848! Can you give us more details?

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on January 13, 2013 03:34 pm

Comitetul Naţional Român from Sibiu was never outlawed by the Austrians.

Romanians received only promises from the Austrians, who in October 1848 were recovering and feeling strong, were not anymore to accept anything from the nationalities from the empire, as was the situation with Hungarians at the outbreak of their revolution, when they cornered the Austrians in the spring of 1848, when they have bog problems at home, in Wien and other sides of the empire.

The following excerpt from the book by Sándor SZILÁGYI: A MAGYAR NEMZET TÖRTÉNETE (1894) contradicts these statements.
"Betraneanu, Simunics és Papp Sándor tribunokat lázadásuk miatt Vay valóban már október 12-ikén kivégeztette, mire az oláhok másnap Balázsfalva vidékén öt, 15-ikén pedig Kis-Enyeden 141 magyart vágtak le s máshol is dúltak, kegyetlenkedtek. Október második felében az erdélyi lapok gyilkosságok, rablások, gyújtogatások hireivel voltak tele."
[Source: http://mek.niif.hu/00800/00893/html/doc/c400543.htm]

Machine translation:
"Betraneanu, Simunics and Sandor Papp tribunokat Vay has executed because their rebellion on 12 October, the next day, Vlachs Blaj five-part, 15-one and small-Enyedi 141 Hungarians were slaughtered and raged elsewhere. Second half of October in Transylvania papers were full of news of murder, robbery, arson."

Although the language is a bit archaic, the whole page is an interesting read, as it looks at the events that happened less than 50 years earlier, taking into consideration all sides' versions of the events.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 13, 2013 09:41 pm

In October 1848 the troops of Transylvanian Romanians organized by Avram Iancu, who were supporting the Austrian Emperor and the Imperial Army, moved to disarm by force the legally organized Hungarian National Guards from Zalatna (today Zlatna) and Körösbánya (Baia de Criş). During the disarmament process of the Hungarian National Guards from Zalatna, in October 1848, following an incident, about 640 (Magyars) citizens of the town (mostly civilians) were killed, including the teachers, priests, doctors and merchants of the town. Each side has denied trigger the armed incident but the result was monstrous! Sad is the fact that the Romanian Commander of the Romanian troops Petru Dobra is still seen today as a hero by the Romanians for his performance in the fightings of 1848-49 War!

At a second thought, I decided to edit my answer, as the above info posted are not of a 100% good faith. Sweet dreams!

This post has been edited by 21 inf on January 14, 2013 08:59 pm

Andreas, you asked for a proof that the Hungarian Batthyány Government or its authorized representatives was willing to negotiate with all the nationalities so I give you: given the growing disagreements with Ban Jelacic of Croatia the Hungarian Government appealed to the arbitration of the Emperor, and on 26 July 1848 they met in Wien. In front of absurd and also destructive demands of Jelacic the Hungarian delegation led by the Prime Minister Batthyány had to leave the conference, but in 4 September a delegation of the Hungarian Diet was in Wien again to appeal again to the Emperor to find a solution to avoid a destructive civil war! But the Ban and his army moved to attacking Hungary and the war started!
Such availability to dialogue would have taken place in Transylvania too if a legally constituted representative body of the Romanians would have existed before October 1848! But instead to sit at the negotiating table Avram Iancu and his supporters gathered again at Balázsfalva (the third time) in mid-September 1848 now armed and organized military! As Hungarians leaders understood that the Imperial Army is the one who incite the Romanians to choose the path of confrontation, they meet Colonel Urban on 22 September 1848 and try a deal with him. Without success as his book was already made by the Imperial camarilla!

21inf, in mid September 1848 the National Guard from Zalatná was abandoned by members of Romanian ethnicity, she remains with some 250 men (only 50 were armed with flintlock rifles and bayonets, the rest had only altered (for war) farm tools!) so there is no logic for which this poorly armed and trained militiamen would provoke a battle with the much larger Zalatná Legion to see themselfs later hunted like animals in the mountains while retrating to Gyulafehérvár! So it is not excluded the possibility of a revenge action of the Romanians (mostly peasants -serfs) against their richer neighbors from the city (Hungarians, Armenians, a.o.) the purpose could be also that of robbery! To give you another example I tell you that in Abrudbányá although the National Guard had only 240 men half of them had flintlock rifles and bayonets others had hunting rifles also only a few had war scythes they have avoided battle. Despite the fact that they were better armed they laid down their arms to the ultimatum received from Avram Iancu and his Legion on 24 October 1848, to avoid a bloodbath! It is true that Avram Iancu has kept his men under control so that there were no murders, robberies or other misfortune! The source of information is the same that I previous quoted!

This post has been edited by aidan zea on January 14, 2013 10:07 pm

Andreas, it is a waste of time to speak to them

Aidan, I suppose you realize, as I do, that you avoid any response that might casts doubt on your theories in which only the Romanians were the vile, manipulative, murderers and robbers, but the Hungarians are not liable for the first massacre of Transylvania after the "unification" with Hungary -Mihalt, (Alba county) from 2 June 1848, followed by other criminal acts (Bara, Hâdab, Luna, a.o.) in the same summer of 1848. What I mean is that you do not put in the balance what was done wrong on the Hungarian side, which is not correct, and does not respect historical truth, as you said that you would like to do! The vengeance is never right, but can explain some atrocities occurred in late October 1848, when Romanians, after many decades of persecution, beatings, serfdom found themselves in freedom (relative freedom, indeed in the spring of 1848) to be beaten, persecuted and even shot again (summer of 1848), on the same orders of the Hungarian nobility, now legitimized as being by the side of the Revolution (Hungarian)! And you want me to share your opinions, in which the Romanians were were the vile, manipulative, murderers and robbers? Unfortunately I can not, so I retire from this so-called dialogue! Live well!

21inf, I regret, but I came to the same conclusion as you! A dialogue is not possible as long as one side supports its point of view, biased and unjustified, without conclusive evidence and no desire to answer uncomfortable questions, accusing the other side by all evil without bringing evidence in this regard!

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on January 15, 2013 09:31 pm

I'm sorry to say but ceasing the dialogue demonstrate only that you two do not have arguments or even worse, hate us (me and Denes) because we have different opinions than you! Remember that I admitted that serious mistakes with tragic consequences were committed by both sides, but as soon as I underline the major mistakes committed by Transylvanian Romanians leaders which severely affected the Hungarian nation from Transylvania and other minorities who stood by her side, you accuse me of holding side of the Hungarian nation and ignore the suffering and injustices Romanians endured! Sure I read what Andreas posted on January 22, 2012 11:46 am

and as a member of a national community different from the majority, I can feel annoyed when somebody throw a blame over my people! This is the reason why I insisted to highlight the Transylvanian Romanian leadership responsibility in killing innocent Hungarian civilians as I also admitted major mistakes made by Hungarian nobility from Transylvania!

If people would apply mathematics, physics and chemistry customized for each nation, as they do with the only one version of real history, humankind would still be in the Bronze Age.