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> 1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years
21 inf
Posted: January 12, 2010 03:24 am
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Any help is more than welcome!! Thank you!
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contras
Posted: January 13, 2010 09:52 am
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For a start, here is a map, from Lt-col Draganescu Constantin, Campaniile din 1848/1849 si 1919 din Transilvania si Ungaria, 1930.

(IMG:http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/791/hartaw.jpg)

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21 inf
Posted: January 13, 2010 11:01 am
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Many thanks!
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ANDREAS
Posted: February 04, 2010 01:01 am
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Hallo everybody,
A short question : the hungarian detachments who fight the moti legions were part of the Józef Bem army, or independent units organised by the Hungarian nobility from Transylvania?
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21 inf
Posted: February 04, 2010 03:41 pm
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Some hungarian units were hungarian army regulars, others were militia. I dont know if the hungarian militia was raised by hungarian nobles or by others.

Some hungarian militia fought independently, some side by side with hungarian regulars, depending on the situation.

The name under the hungarian militia was designated was "szabadcsapatok" in hungarian language or, in english translation "free corps".
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contras
Posted: February 04, 2010 06:48 pm
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Like a completation, here is OOB in December 1848 (Austrian and Hungarian troops):

Austrians:
a) at Hungarian western frontier
3-4000 men at Teschen
5000 at Goding (gen. Simunic)
45 000 at Wien, under direct command of Windisch Gratz
6-8000 men at Stiria's frontier (Gen. Nugent)
B) in South (Austro-Serbian forces)
15 000 in Bacska county, on the Frantz Canal
28 000 in Banat (from which 8000 in Timisoara and 5000 in Arad garrisons)
c) 15-18 000 in Transylvania, under gen Puchner, at that forces must be added Romanian guards
d) 10-12 000 men in North, arrived from Galitia, under gen. Schlick
Supreme comander, prince Windisch Gratz

Hungarians:
a) at western frontier, 3-5000 men in Leopoldstadt area
30 000 men in Pressburg area, under Gogey
10-12 000 at Stiria's frontier (gen. Perczel)
B) in south, in Bacska county and in Banat, 25-30 000 men
c) east, 8-10 000 men under gen. Bem (Oradea), there must be added 4 brigades in Transylvania
d) in north, 3-4000 men in Maramures
8-10000 in Kachau area (gen. Pulszki)
e) hungarian garrisons (25 000 men) at fortresses Komarom, Leopoldstadt, Esseg, Neusatz.
Total hungarian forces, about 130 000 men, from whom 50 000 were Honved, the rest was formed by militia and national guards.
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ANDREAS
Posted: February 04, 2010 10:08 pm
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Thank you contras, useful additions!
I found in a e-book "AZ 1848–-1849-ES FORRADALOM ÉS SZABADSÁGHARC 150. ÉVFORDULÓJÁRA" by BONA GÁBOR - that the honved troops from the hungarian army were organised in december 1848 like this : 62 hungarian infantry battalions raised from mainland Hungary, 10 hungarian national guards battalions, 1 polish and 1 german infantry battalions, with unknown numbers of troops from Transylvania. There were also 9 huszar (cavalry) regiments with 82 squadrons. The artillery was organized in 32 batteries with a total of 260 guns, without counting the batteries of the Komarom, Petervarad, Eszek, Lipotvar fortresses. Other 3 pioneer battalions and 4 squadrons were raised. There were 85.000 man in the infantry, 10.000 men in the cavalry, 4.500 men in the artillery and 2.500 men in the engineer troops. I'll try to found informations over Bem's army to see if the troops send to crush the moti romanian legions were regular or militia.
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contras
Posted: February 04, 2010 10:16 pm
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I'm sorry about my reply, I intended to counter the troops, I put the letter b and I added the brakes, ), and I found later thet it apears a smiley face! Sorry about this, and please read this smiley face like b and ).
Thank you.
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21 inf
Posted: February 05, 2010 05:37 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ February 04, 2010 10:08 pm)
Thank you contras, useful additions!
I found in a e-book "AZ 1848–-1849-ES FORRADALOM ÉS SZABADSÁGHARC 150. ÉVFORDULÓJÁRA" by BONA GÁBOR - that the honved troops from the hungarian army were organised in december 1848 like this : 62 hungarian infantry battalions raised from mainland Hungary, 10 hungarian national guards battalions, 1 polish and 1 german infantry battalions, with unknown numbers of troops from Transylvania. There were also 9 huszar (cavalry) regiments with 82 squadrons. The artillery was organized in 32 batteries with a total of 260 guns, without counting the batteries of the Komarom, Petervarad, Eszek, Lipotvar fortresses. Other 3 pioneer battalions and 4 squadrons were raised. There were 85.000 man in the infantry, 10.000 men in the cavalry, 4.500 men in the artillery and 2.500 men in the engineer troops. I'll try to found informations over Bem's army to see if the troops send to crush the moti romanian legions were regular or militia.

I can tell you for sure that the hungarian units sent against moti were both militia and regulars. Examples: Hatvany's troops from 1st battle from Abrud, early June 1849 were in most part militia, no evidence of regulars. Hatvany himself was apointed major, but unoficially, as he was in reality a lawyer and volunteered to fight. Regular officers didnt apreciated him at all cos he has no military preparation and skills.

In second battle from Abrud, late June 1849 there was again Hatvany with other militia (from the first battle almost no militia survived) and regulars. In this battle one identified regular unit was a german company, called Totenkopf german company. It was probably from Austria, Wien. Only 6 of them survived. Another unit was of bandits, having as comander the famous Rozsa bandit. This last unit was not identified for sure during or after the battle, even if it is said that Rozsa himself was KIA during fightings.

As far as I understand from what I read, the troops of Kemeny Farkas colonel at the 3rd battle from Abrud, July 1849, were mostly regulars. They included some 20 canons and some rocket batteries together with pioneer units. I didnt managed to find out the identity of the units, but their results and smalest loses in comparison with Hatvany's 2 disasters show better military skills.

Vasvari Pal's 3000 men unit heavily defeated at Fantanele battle in 1849 was almost entire raised from militia, although a small number of regulars is not excluded, but not proved.

Czecz major troops operating on Crisul Alb valley around Halmagiu area I believe is both regulars and militia, but no evidence so far.

Militia was also defeated in battles from Iara, around Teius and other locations.

In Aiud was also garisoned regulars and militia in late 1848 and early 1849.

The siege of Alba Iulia fortress from April-August 1849 was conducted by both regulars and militia and this ones colided with Axente Sever's units a few times.

In total, Klapka general apreciated in his memoires that almost 50% of hungarian army from Transylvania was imobilised by operations against moti and was an important reason that hungarian were beaten by russians, cos these troops were unable to engage the czarist army when invaded Transylvania.
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Dénes
Posted: February 05, 2010 06:27 am
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QUOTE (21 inf @ February 05, 2010 11:37 am)
...these troops were unable to engage the czarist army when invaded Transylvania.

This is the first time I see the main factor of the Hungarian Revolution's demise is mentioned in this long thread: the Russians.

The Hungarian troops were not defeated by the Austrians, Croats, Slovaks, or Rumanians, etc., but the Russians.
This was the first time the Russians intervened in Central Europe against Hungary in a sinister chain of three events, crushing the Hungarians (the others being in 1944/1945 and 1956).

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 05, 2010 06:36 am
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21 inf
Posted: February 05, 2010 04:21 pm
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Of course that the russian crushed the hungarian revolutionary armies. The austrians were too weak to do so. Speaking about Transylvanian campaign, the austrian armies were driven off into Wallachia by hungarian regulars. The only austrian-controlled place remaining in Transylvania was Alba Iulia fortress, for the entire length of the civil war.

Romanian militia, as also croat, serb and other militia, were not able, due to poor equimpment, armament and military skills, to gain a decisive victory against hungarians. They were also not enough in number of fighters to face for long open regular battles against hungarian army. They were able to conduct a guerilla war, with it's characteristics.

This romanian, serb or croat militia were only contributing, sometimes esentially, but not decisivelly to the defeat of hungarian revolutionary armies.
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dead-cat
Posted: February 05, 2010 07:35 pm
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Temesvar was also held by the austrians through a 3 month siege until relieved by Haynau after the battle of Temesvar in august '49.
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21 inf
Posted: February 05, 2010 08:06 pm
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I didnt mentioned Timisoara because it is in Banat and my interes is only in Transylvania's 1848/49, but any suplementar info is welcome. Thank you!
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ANDREAS
Posted: February 06, 2010 12:53 am
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Many thanks 21 inf,
Really useful informations you gave!
I also found something, translated below, about the troops of colonel Kemény Farkas who fought the battle from 16 june 1849 in the Abrud area :
"In June 16, 1849, Avram Jancu Romanian rebel troops launched a new attack against Abrud defended by the army (hungarian army), but because of food and ammunition shortage it had to retreat, than the rebels startled the city and destroyed it. The retreat was covered by the Colonels Forró 11th (Honved) Battalion soldiers, 300 of whom were killed or wounded in the battles."
Source : "AZ 1848–-1849-ES FORRADALOM ÉS SZABADSÁGHARC 150. ÉVFORDULÓJÁRA" by BONA GÁBOR
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21 inf
Posted: February 06, 2010 05:04 am
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Kemeny Farcas entered Abrud after a series of battles which delayed him on the road to this city. He left Brad, Hunedoara county, and headed toward Abrud, which was considered the key of the mountains. Capturing it, he was practicaly stoping any organised resistance in the mountains.

After several days on the road, and battles, Kemeny was deliberately let by moti to entered Abrud. This allowance to capture Abrud without fight was part of romanian strategy, because the moti knew extremelly well what they were able, after two succesfull battles against Hatvany, in the exactly same city.

Imediatly after Kemeny's army went toward Abrud, the units of Simion Balint prefect atacked the rear of the hungarian column. Balint atacked an important convoy of food and ammo and captured it. This was the first step to the defeating of hungarian army.

Once in Abrud, Kemeny found it already devastated after the previous 2 heavy fightings against Hatvany. Kemeny barely found shelter into a romanian priest house, wich was still good enough to be inhabited.

Kemeny tried to make his way towards Campeni, so the fight started. Battle rages for several days, until Kemeny, seeing that he has no food (he already had several soldiers died from starvation in Abrud), low on ammo and with his retreating way toward Brad cut, he decided to retreat toward Zlatna. He did so, leaving behind a covering force and pushing some decoy atacks in diferent direction to camouflage his real direction of retreat.

Romanians didnt destroyed the city intentionally. At that time, Abrud was in most part in ruins due to previous battles and it was hit again during confrontation with Kemeny. Kemeny loses were more than thise 300 men, it is evaluated at more than 500 men.
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