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> 1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years
21 inf
Posted: November 30, 2007 09:50 pm
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Gentlemen,

I am proud to present a new site www.taramotilor.ro
were one can found info's about 1848/49 fightings, eyewitness reports.

Just click on the cover "Motii..." and choose your chapter.

Site still under construction, but one can find the answer for a question posted above: Who had military experience in romanian transylvanian army?

Well, I might say one was prefect Axente Sever (chapter 36)

His report indicates that he was experienced military and his men also had great military training: he conducted a night atack with a batalion sized unit, loosing very few men, chasing the enemy away - this enterprise was not posible with green guys from country side; he broke the circle around Alba Iulia three times - details of the tactics on text;
The most daring raid I like most was when he looted hungarian food depots from Geoagiu. This raid conviced me that they were military experienced troops:
Axente Sever with a force as big as 300 men marched from around Zlatna toward Geoagiu, a distance of 22 km in straight line (as a bird fly). On soil it is greater the distance. They atacked Geoagiu and chased the remnants of the hungarian garison 2 km until those were throwned into Mures river. He marched then almost 12 km to reach Rapolt, with 48 wagons of war spoils. Even if he had drivers for the wagons (in order not to use his fighters) his speed was limited by the loaded wagons.
The hungarians sent a force against him to regain the war spoils, but he already marched back in the mountains, from Rapolt to Bobalna 3,5 km, from Bobalna to Geoagiu 8 km, from Geoagiu to Bacainti 7 km (all in straight line) with even more war spoils. Hungarian chasing troops never touched his unit in this march.
For this kind of enterprise I believe that he need trained men who were able to march distances so long as a fighting unit, able to engage imediately the enemy after the march in order too keep the surprise efect and advantage. He also needed to be a well organised oficer to be able to drive such a force in enemy controled teritory, to manage such a big transport and to escape with it back into his own lines.

Enjoy!
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New Connaught Ranger
Posted: December 01, 2007 12:02 pm
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Hallo 21 inf

Having traveled that area, in fact I own a country house in Almasu Mic, number 13,

(IMG:http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8399/s3600168axg8.jpg)

which is between Zlatna and Geoagiu, the road goes via Balsa, believe me its impossible to march for any distance in a straight line.

The road from Zlatna climbs to a considerable height even before you get to Almasu Mari (Miners Museum located there) and then zig-zags down into Almasu Mijoc, then to Almasu Mic.

(IMG:http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4202/s3600175ank9.jpg)

in this picture taken from the bridge are looking from the Zlatna side, the road turns right and eventually wanders around to Brad, if you go left, eventually you will get to Balsa and Geoargiu, where at the bridge you would swing right to take the road to Rapolt

Even today the road, which follows the path it followed during that time, there is hardly a straight stretch or one that does not climb up and down hills.

(IMG:http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/7145/almash4axd3.jpg)
This shot is taken between Balsa and Geoargiu and shows some typical sceanery.


So I would have to take Mr.Axente Sever claim's with a pinch of salt.

The road from Geoagiu to Rapolt is fairly level and good progress could be made depending on the road surface back then.

Kevin in Deva :D

This post has been edited by New Connaught Ranger on December 01, 2007 12:09 pm
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21 inf
Posted: December 01, 2007 01:21 pm
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Dear NCR,

On the first hand, thanks for the reading of my article with atention, from begining to the end.

If you would read my poor english, I pointed that the distance is in straight line AS A BIRD FLY, also I mentioned that ON SOIL (or on road if you like more), the distance is MUCH LONGER! I didnt said that they marched in straight line!!! I just calculated a distance in straight line (which is shorter than on the road, so one can imagine the hardship of such a march with 300 men even in shorter distances)

NCR, you own a house in the area, I spent almost all my childhood on that mountains, so I like to believe that I know that no one is so stupid to march STRAIGHT over those peaks and valeys....

"So I would have to take Mr.Axente Sever claim's with a pinch of salt." -NCR
"22 km in straight line (as a bird fly). On soil it is greater the distance." - 21 Inf, initial post

Ax. Sever was anything one want, but not a lier....

You can take the claims of Ax.Sever in the way you like, I have only to apologise for my english if I was not well understood what I mean. In romanian everyone would know what I wanted to describe in my small post...but rules of forum...

So, because I worked hard on the site mentioned, any good and carefully judged comment will be more than welcomed.


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New Connaught Ranger
Posted: December 01, 2007 03:53 pm
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Hallo 21 inf,

QUOTE
Axente Sever with a force as big as 300 men marched from around Zlatna toward Geoagiu, a distance of 22 km in straight line (as a bird fly). On soil it is greater the distance. They atacked Geoagiu and chased the remnants of the hungarian garison 2 km until those were throwned into Mures river. He marched then almost 12 km to reach Rapolt, with 48 wagons of war spoils. Even if he had drivers for the wagons (in order not to use his fighters) his speed was limited by the loaded wagons.
The hungarians sent a force against him to regain the war spoils, but he already marched back in the mountains, from Rapolt to Bobalna 3,5 km, from Bobalna to Geoagiu 8 km, from Geoagiu to Bacainti 7 km (all in straight line) with even more war spoils. Hungarian chasing troops never touched his unit in this march.


My highlight on words in brackets!! NCR :D .

Would it not have been a better idea to present the story in more detail?

Describing the condition of the surrounding landscape to the readers who are unfamiliar with the area??

The difficulty's encountered by Mr. Axente Sever would be more highlighted and

clear if a map or diagram of the area would have been used.

I am not sure I would entirely agree with your statement with regards green men from the country, the backbone of European armies was formed with these men, a lot of their experience came about with On The Job Training its true, but a leader sometimes does not have the chance to pick and choose the men available to him.

Can you recommend and books in English giving more details of these campaigns, as I am very interested in the military history of the local area.

Off Topic to:Axente Sever period.
(IMG:http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/9994/s3600213aok2.jpg)
Local Almasu Mic military history in the local Church yard.



By the way I never inferred that Mr. Axente Sever was a liar but depending upon when the written account was taken down with the passage of time there can be found slight inaccuracies, this is common through much early military history of many countries.



Kevin in Deva. :D

This post has been edited by New Connaught Ranger on December 01, 2007 03:58 pm
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21 inf
Posted: December 01, 2007 04:21 pm
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From now on I'm stoping to make any translation from romanian references from my site, giving the fact that it seems I dont speak enough well english. So, I dont want my work to be affected by my poor quality translations into english, leading in this way to misunderstanding from the part of the readers.

I am sure that a native romanian spoker will understand what I mean, so the articles will be posted in time on my site, in romanian language.

Unfortunatelly, I dont know any translations of those events (from romanian side) in english, maybe other forumists can give a clue if and where it can be found.
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New Connaught Ranger
Posted: December 01, 2007 06:59 pm
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If you care to check my posts you will not find anyplace that I or any other member of this forum have commented on your English writing abilities.

If you do not wish to post in English then thats your choice and our loss, but, you could always take a third option by asking those more in proficient in English to check what you write by PM before posting, I would be glad to help out where its possible.

Kevin in Deva. :D
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Imperialist
Posted: December 01, 2007 07:55 pm
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21 Inf, if you want I can translate some articles for you in order to make those stories accessible for foreign readers. No fees but no strict deadlines either. ;) You can contact me on PM if you are interested.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on December 01, 2007 07:55 pm
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21 inf
Posted: December 01, 2007 08:06 pm
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Thanks, Imperialist!

PM sent.

There are 3 chapters describing the fightings from 1848/49 in Apuseni Mountains, reports from the leaders of the battles.
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21 inf
Posted: December 02, 2007 12:04 pm
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Short text from my site, probably Imperialist will translate this small text into english when he have time:

[...]Ioan Sulutiu, care facuse ca ofiter austriac campania in contra lui Napoleon cel mare, a fost sufletul operatiunilor militare romane din muntii Abrudului si totodata inventatorul legendarelor tunuri de lemn, legate cu cercuri de fer. Prin el se trimeteau de catre comandantul cetatii Alba Iulia munitiunile necesare Motilor.[...]

Full text soon on my site, at http://www.taramotilor.ro/cap38.html

This post has been edited by 21 inf on December 02, 2007 09:28 pm
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contras
Posted: January 10, 2010 06:43 pm
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QUOTE
Ioan Sulutiu, care facuse ca ofiter austriac campania in contra lui Napoleon cel mare


I think there is a mistake. Ioan Sulutiu was born in 1796. Last campaingn against Napoleon took part in 1815, without participation of Austrian troops, when Sulutiu has 19 years old. I don't think at this age he could be officer in Austrian army. Maybe he was fighting in campaigns against Napoleon, and later became officer in Austrian army.
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21 inf
Posted: January 10, 2010 07:40 pm
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Napoleon was oficer (sublocotenent or locotenent, I dont rem well) in french army at age 16 and he was of corsican origin. Who knows if what not the case of Sulutiu, too? His family was of transylvanian romanian noble origin and wealthy, also.

Maybe he was austrian oficer but joined another army, maybe german, or russian, who knows?

In years 1780's or some, a romanian peasant from my grandfather's village, from Zarand, was soldier in imperial austrian guard, so for a noble man as Sulutiu was easier to join army even if very young for today standards for being an oficer.

Or, you can be right, Ioan Sulutiu went into campaign against Napoleon as a young boy and only later he became oficer.
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21 inf
Posted: January 10, 2010 07:46 pm
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Updated the site with daily chronicle of fightings from 1848-1849, compiling a number of sources, some of them lately discover in archives and published. Even if it is for sure not 100% complete, it is, I believe, one of the most comprehensive cronicle of the events which involved romanian forces I ever readed.

Can be readed at http://taramotilor.ro/istorie.html
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contras
Posted: January 10, 2010 09:13 pm
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I read it, and it is very good! Perhaps it could be showed some maps with OOB, and the main direction of advance of opposing forces. I know there might be some work on it!
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21 inf
Posted: January 11, 2010 05:50 am
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I was thinking to make a "map of operations", but I still have to gather informations about OOB of romanian legions and to consult some hungarian memories, too.

The OOB of romanian legions I was told by profesionist historians that is not existing as nobody kept evidence of it in 1848-1849. For my surprise, I found unintentionally, looking for something else, the OOB for one of the romanian legions, including the following informations about romanian combatants: name and surname, vilage, age, marital status, profesion, weapons carried on the battle by own suply. If this evidence exists, it is probable that exists for other legions, too, but I need time to found it on the libraries by myself, as no person I know can point me were are to be found.

The hungarian memories usefull for this project are of Kemeny Farkas colonel and Czecz major. I found Kemeny colonel's memories, but I have to confront it with other sources, because there are some info which are not coresponding with the romanian ones. One example of inadvertence: in a certain date, let's say 4 of november 1848 romanian sources point that a romanian unit atacked and took a certain village, beating hungarian troops. In the same time, Kemeny colonel point that he deliberatelly atacked the same romanian unit and heavilly defeated it. Even for the 3rd battle from Abrud, romanian sources point that romanians earned a great victory against Kemeny, while Kemeny says that he managed to beat the romanians (but he had great loses in men and artillery, no food at all and lost Abrud, having to retreat in haste).

I didnt managed to find Czecz's memories.

Other romanian battles are not recorded by hungarian sources, even if they were of relatively great extent.
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contras
Posted: January 11, 2010 10:24 pm
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21 Inf, just put them there, and let others to think about them. Let me help you with some information, I read some books by Ilie Furduiu, both published by Editura Altip, Alba Iulia:
1. Revolutia dela 1848-1849, martiri si eroi
2. Abrud, pagini de eroism.
Published in 2001 and 2002.
I believe they are help you to make a better wiew about these historical events, very important to us.
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