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> Attempting to defend Nazi Germany?
saudadesdefrancesinhas
Posted: September 16, 2006 09:20 pm
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QUOTE (Helmut Von Moltke @ September 16, 2006 12:52 pm)
This would be true in 1941, right after the fiasco of the Red Army's invasion of Finland. Stalin tried to re-organise the Red Army as quickly as possible. However in 1942 or 1943 the Red Army would surely be strong enough. What of their huge numbers of men, tanks, guns, and aircraft?

But, it was surely a defensive war against Bolshevism which had much to do with the fate of Europe after 1943 when the Red Army was on the offensive right? If the Wehrmacht totally collapsed then who would plug the gap and stop the Red Army? And about infamy, judging by the same token why dosen't the Soviet Union have infamy for taking over the Baltic States, Bessarabia and invading Finland? Or why idn't Britain infamous for having an Empire?

You do make valid points about Hitler and the British Empire. Most likely Hitler was more intrested in the conquest side of British colonialsm. But about numbers, I have already made the exception with my comment of an "enlarged version". But towards the end of the war, in 1943 and 1944 - yes, the Nazis set up a Russian liberation committe in Prauge, run by General Vlasov, and the Russian army of liberation, on which on the first day of it's founding 60000 volunteers joined for. Not mentioning, most of the Russian and Ukranian population welcomed the Germans as liberators in the beggining until the "Reichcommissars" came. Despite that fact, almost 1 million of the 2 million foreign volunteers of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS were Slavic or Eastern Europeans. And culture? Eventually, even Orthodox priests were allowed to preach to the Ukranian 14. Waffen Grenadier Division der SS. They were true patrioits. The US government recognized this after the war, by not stating they were criminals and I am grateful to them for it. However of course, I know that the Nazis did this out of circumstance and situation, as they were despierate for manpower in 1944 and 1945.

Regards,

K

Hi Von Moltke,

I think that in 1941 the Germans came very close to defeating the Russians, and if Stalin had actually attacked some country a bit later, I think the Western Allies might have helped the Germans, and I don't think, in that case the USSR would have stood a chance. But, the complicating factor is always the attitude of Germany. Adolf Hitler's policy meant that there could be no real European Front against 'Bolshevism', and indeed, that the Western powers and USSR were drawn together.

After 1943 the war was only a defensive war in so much as what had started out as an offensive campaign by the Germans had gone wrong, and it looked like the Russians were going to be able to carry the war into Eastern Europe. As far as I can tell the Russians were doing this because the Nazis had made the war a war to the death against both Bolshevism and the Russian people, this therefore gave the Russians a justification for coming into Europe to eliminate what was demonstrably a serious threat to them.

It is difficult to tell whether and how the USSR would have been aggressive without the existence of Nazi Germany. From what I have read about Soviet foreign policy, there were aggressive aspects, especially early on soon after the civil war, but there is also evidence that Stalin was distancing himself from this kind of revolutionary diplomacy throughout the 20s and 30s, though he was still prepared to use aspects of it (like the Comintern) to his own advantage if he could in his dealing with Foreign Powers. There is little evidence, as far as I know, that Stalin had any concrete plans for any major aggression in the 30s.
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saudadesdefrancesinhas
Posted: September 16, 2006 09:56 pm
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QUOTE (Helmut Von Moltke @ September 16, 2006 01:09 pm)
Well, naturally Hitler would be popular among Germans because he managed to throw off the shackles of the humiliating Treaty of Versailles, and made Germany rich and powerful again. Most Germans would support Hitler out of his foreign policies. I highly doubt that most Germans would vote for him if he said he wanted to kill Jews in concentration camps. He had a very effective propaganda sysmtem to keep check of such things. For example, a German veteran I know, said that his father was once arrested for making deragtory remarcks about Hitler, and spent some time in a KZ, yet when he was released, he still believed the propaganda of the KZs being rehabiliation centres. And didn't many German officers want their land back after they were taken by the Poles in 1919? And after all, when Hitler had his first confrence with Reichswehr generals in 1933 shortly after taking power, he made a speech about conquering Lebensraum, and the generals didn't care very much, and only supported his wants for a larger army. After all, didn't General Ludwig Beck, chief of staff, oppose Hitler's plans for Czechoslovakia?

QUOTE
If you want to see how the ordinary East Prussian peasant became a member of an einsatzgruppe, read the book 'Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution' by Christopher Browning, which is an attempt at giving an account of this.


The Einsatzgruppe was not that big. How is the Red Army raping a woman in Nemmesdorf or pretty much anywhere else in Eastern Germany revenge? And it can hardly be revenge when the Red Army raped many women in Poland, and their own women as well after they were released from forced labour in Germany.

QUOTE
It is bad to take personal examples, two members of my family were killed during the second war fighting the Germans, and one lost his legs, but this won't be uncommon.


I have nothing against soldiers in the Red Army or Allied armies, just as I have nothing against German soldiers or Japanese soldiers or whatever, as long as they didn't commit war crimes. My grandfather's brother was executed by the Japanese in 1942. Yet my grandfather and I don't hold any grudges against Japan. After all, my grandfather was saved by a Japanese soldier and my grandfather still speaks highly of him. No feeling of revenge there. This should apply to the European theatre of WWII as well. For heaven's sake, it was 60 years ago. Why can't people just forgive and forget?

QUOTE
If anything, those Germans who fought for such an evil and disreputable cause are a tragic example of how things can go wrong for people, and to be pitied, but not held up as a political example for today, or in anyway to whitewash the reputation of organisations that turned their back on morality.


German soldiers defending their country from the Red Army's advance in order to gain time for the Western Allies to advance, during 1945, isn't an evil cause. Kriegsmarine sailors rescuing refugees from surroudned areas isn't an evil cause. And turning back on morality? The Wehrmacht had chaplains. Kurt Meyer told the lads of 12. SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend' to ignore thr hogwash pagain crap of Himmler and keep to Christian ways. Willi Bittrich let his troops attend mass, despite the fact that the Waffne-SS was supposed to be 'Gottglaubig" before the war. And about examples. Well, it cannot be denied that men like Rommel, Guderian, Erich Hartmann, Erich Topp and Michael Wittmann were magnificent and strong men, even if the regime they fought under was evil. More men like these and we would not be afraid of so called "terrorists" today.

Regards,

K

With respect to the other points you made, here are a few more ideas.

(I forgot to mention in my other posts that I think the amount of infamy the Soviet Union attracts is quite large, and growing as more is revealed. There are now many books in the UK and in France at least about the cruelties of the Soviet system.

Also, the negative aspects of the British Empire are widely known and condemned here in the UK. There are always new TV programs and books exploring massacres and the evils of the colonial system, and debating these subjects.)

The things about helping Germany recover from WWI cannot be argued with, the only problem was that the way Hitler and the German people who supported him went about this was, I think, totally wrong and misguided. This is because it represented a more negative and aggressive return to what was the worst of Germany in WWI. The narrow and racist nationalism, greatness by conquest etc, a repressive totalitarian system, more war. It was not just about giving Germany respect back, but trying to subjugate every other country to German domination, and to a certain inflated idea of what Germany's position in the world aught to be.

I don't think the Red Army raping people was revenge for the Einsatzgruppen, or can really be justified. But, the probable rationale for it was that, since the Germans had (as Red Army soldiers were told) come to destroy Russia and enslave them, and, they could see with their own eyes the way this was being done as they reconquered the areas the German's had occupied, they would be angry and want vengeance. They were told that the German attack was unprovoked, and while lots of their propaganda was exaggerated and borders on the grotesque when read now, their was a lot of truth in the way Nazi aims were portrayed as well, unfortunately, as we can see from reading how Hitler and the Nazi leaders were thinking.

The times when the German soldiers were defending their civilians were the times when they were not acting immorally. It is the times when they were that I was thinking of, when the officers and men of the wehrmacht fought to fulfill Hitler's war aims. Here is an example of what I was thinking of: in Poland in 1939 Colonel-general Blaskowitz, commander of the Army in Poland, writes to Von Brauchitsch condemning the 'criminal atrocities, maltreatment, and plundering carried out by the SS, police and administration'. and condemning their 'animal and pathological instincts.' fearing that it will all lead to 'immeasurable brutalization and moral debasement'. Brauchitsch ignores the said report, and instead puts out a response saying that criticism endangering the unity and fighting power of the troops had to be prohibited. Indeed, he also endorsed all the measures taken by the SS, and this can be taken as the 'official' view of the Army on the matter (see Ian Kershaw, Hitler: Nemesis 1936-45 pp.248-249).


Obviously, then, not all German soldiers agreed with Nazi methods and ideology, just like not all Germans would have in anyway approved of things the Nazis did in their name. However, rehabilitating the memory of people who fought for the Nazi aims and in defence of the Nazi cause, whether willingly or not, will always be a difficult and uncertain thing.
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Helmut Von Moltke
Posted: September 17, 2006 12:21 am
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Victor, I know the fact that most Red Army soldiers did not commit war crimes, just as most German soldiers didn't.

saudadesdefrancesinhas, you said

QUOTE
But, the complicating factor is always the attitude of Germany. Adolf Hitler's policy meant that there could be no real European Front against 'Bolshevism', and indeed, that the Western powers and USSR were drawn together.


European front agaisnt Bolshevism? Well, not officially, but there were 2 million foregin volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS and the majority of their motivations was to fight Bolshevism. Look at the battle at Narva in 1944 when Wallonians, Flems, Latvians, Estonians, Norwegians, Swedes, etc of the III. SS Panzer Korps fought and died side by side. Or how enthusiastically the famous Wallonian SS officer Leon Degrelle and the 5. SS Sturmbrigade 'Wallonie' was greeted when they returned to Brussels in 1944 after the breakout at Cherkassy. Or how the Danish government officially gave support to the SS Frikorps Danmark which fought on the Eastern front, was enthusiastically received yet got thier backs turned on by a turncoat government at the end of the war. Needless to say, many on the Allied camp feared a total victory of the Soviets as well. The USA wasn't eager to join the war in 1941 before Peal Harbour. Many Christian Americans sympathised wit the German cause on the Eastern front, although not with the Nazis, since they fought the Soviet Union. When the pan-European 5. SS Panzer Division 'Wiking', which had a clean record, surrendered to the Americans, I remember that the US commander who took them over said they were heroes. General Patton endoresed an attack on the Soviet Union together with the remnants of the Wehrmacht. The task of the Waffen-SS and the Wehrmacht was passed down to NATO.

QUOTE
As far as I can tell the Russians were doing this because the Nazis had made the war a war to the death against both Bolshevism and the Russian people, this therefore gave the Russians a justification for coming into Europe to eliminate what was demonstrably a serious threat to them.


Umm, Soviet soldiers actually didn't actually think that they were fighting for Communism. Stalin told them they were fighting for Mother Russia, knowing that the ideas of Marx would not inspire millions of Russians, despite the fact that no Russia existed. The Eastern front was just part of Bolshevism's greater ambitions. If they were so eager to eliminate a threat to them, then why did they try so desperatly to try to take more land in 1945?

QUOTE
It is difficult to tell whether and how the USSR would have been aggressive without the existence of Nazi Germany. From what I have read about Soviet foreign policy, there were aggressive aspects, especially early on soon after the civil war, but there is also evidence that Stalin was distancing himself from this kind of revolutionary diplomacy throughout the 20s and 30s, though he was still prepared to use aspects of it (like the Comintern) to his own advantage if he could in his dealing with Foreign Powers. There is little evidence, as far as I know, that Stalin had any concrete plans for any major aggression in the 30s.


True that Stalin did not have a concrete plan for a recreation of the Red Army's foiled attempt of the early 1920s. But then why else would there by hundreds of Soviet divisions?

QUOTE
(I forgot to mention in my other posts that I think the amount of infamy the Soviet Union attracts is quite large, and growing as more is revealed. There are now many books in the UK and in France at least about the cruelties of the Soviet system.


I haven't seen any in English bookstores I have been to, other than 'Gulag archipelago", which is hidden away in a corner, while books about the holocaust are all over the place. There are hardly any Hollywood type movies about Communist crimes, unlike the holocaust, with thr exception of 'The killing fields' about Pol Pot.

QUOTE
Also, the negative aspects of the British Empire are widely known and condemned here in the UK. There are always new TV programs and books exploring massacres and the evils of the colonial system, and debating these subjects.)


But they still hold Germany as the scapegoat right? And millions of dollars are still flogged out of Geramny each month in reparations to Isreal right? Adter 60 years it can hardly be said it was reparations. In this case, why don't the Russians give out reparations to minorities they deported to the Gulags? Or why don't the British give reparations to it's Colonies? They don't have to, and neither does Germany. It's all about money, yet again.

QUOTE
The things about helping Germany recover from WWI cannot be argued with, the only problem was that the way Hitler and the German people who supported him went about this was, I think, totally wrong and misguided. This is because it represented a more negative and aggressive return to what was the worst of Germany in WWI. The narrow and racist nationalism, greatness by conquest etc, a repressive totalitarian system, more war. It was not just about giving Germany respect back, but trying to subjugate every other country to German domination, and to a certain inflated idea of what Germany's position in the world aught to be.


This was not how the average German felt. They did not want war. Sure, would they feel wrong and misguided in 1936 when the Rhineland was re-militarised? It is important to understand the war from all viewpoints, whether you agree or disagree with it or not. History is open to interpertation.

QUOTE
I don't think the Red Army raping people was revenge for the Einsatzgruppen, or can really be justified. But, the probable rationale for it was that, since the Germans had (as Red Army soldiers were told) come to destroy Russia and enslave them, and, they could see with their own eyes the way this was being done as they reconquered the areas the German's had occupied, they would be angry and want vengeance. They were told that the German attack was unprovoked, and while lots of their propaganda was exaggerated and borders on the grotesque when read now, their was a lot of truth in the way Nazi aims were portrayed as well, unfortunately, as we can see from reading how Hitler and the Nazi leaders were thinking.


Ahem, many of the rapes were commited by rear supply troops drunk on vodka and propaganda, unlike the front line Soviet troops, who, although with many exceptions, many were civilised to the population. That myth is busted in "Berlin - The Downfall" by Antony Beevor. After all, didn't some Soviet troops even rape Russian women after they were released from German forced labour?

QUOTE
The times when the German soldiers were defending their civilians were the times when they were not acting immorally. It is the times when they were that I was thinking of, when the officers and men of the wehrmacht fought to fulfill Hitler's war aims.


The average Lander was not an aggressive animal who wanted to conquer the world. They, like all soldiers, just wanted to 'get it over with and go home'. Despite all causes or what they were fighting for, many soldiers at the end realsie they were misused by politicians, whether Hitler, Stalin, or Churchill, and "in the words of a Dutch Waffen-SS veteran i know, "marched together as a reminder of what war is".

QUOTE
Obviously, then, not all German soldiers agreed with Nazi methods and ideology, just like not all Germans would have in anyway approved of things the Nazis did in their name. However, rehabilitating the memory of people who fought for the Nazi aims and in defence of the Nazi cause, whether willingly or not, will always be a difficult and uncertain thing.


right. Read this:

QUOTE
German people have right to honor their war heroes
by:CHARLEY REESE
Charley Reese is a columnist for King Features Syndicate. You can write to him at P.O. Box 2446, Orlando, Fla.

It is time to consign World War II propaganda to the dustbin of history and allow the German people to revere their military heroes. They certain-ly had a lot of them in World War II.
I am not, of course, talking about the Nazi regime. I'm talking about the ordinary German soldiers who, like the ordinary American and British soldiers, went to war when their political leaders told them to go war. The battlefield exploits of the German army were outstanding.

As Americans, we should thank God that so many Ger-man divisions were being chewed up on the Eastern Front, because if they had been in Normandy, we'd probably still be trying to get ashore. Some British guy once said that nobody knows what real war is until he fights the Germans. The German soldiers of World War II certainly proved that.
Another British historian observed that whenever the Allies and the Germans were on an equal footing, the Allies lost.
It was America's industrial might and the Red Army that finally wore them down, disadvantaged as they were by loony leaders in Berlin. |
It's a truism among soldiers that once the war starts, nobody fights for political goals — they fight to save themselves and their comrades. All of those young Germans who died in that savage war deserve to be remembered for their cou-rage and their fidelity to duty and not be tarred by the sins of political leaders far from the battlefield.
Some German soldiers committed atrocities, but so did we all, as every side always does in wars. But the majority of the German soldiers were guilty of noth-ing but doing their duty, and there is no reason for any German today to be asham-ed of them. Most of them were fighting for their homes and families and not for Nazi ideology.
It's ironic that of all the wartime lead-ers, Josef Stalin profited most. Franklin Roosevelt died before the war ended. Winston Churchill was voted out of office shortly after the war. Adolf Hitler, of course, died in his bunker, a suicide. What did the war accomplish? Aside from removing two bad governments, it ac-complished the enslavement of half of Europe, the deaths of 55 million people and the beginning of the Cold War. That so many millions of young men, as well as millions of innocent civilians on all sides, died because of a bunch of politi-cians and despots is enough to make you weep.
This past week, there was a lot of silly talk about whether the Germans were conquered or liberated. They were con-quered and treated quite badly immedi-ately after the war by the Americans, the British and the Russians. Many died of starvation and illness. Several million Germans in western Poland were forced out of their homes as Stalin moved Poland's boundaries to the west to keep the eastern part within the Soviet Union.
Hitler had duped the German people just as our politicians dupe us. Nobody who has seen how easily Americans are swayed by demagogues should criticize the German people. The politicians in the old Weimar Republic made a fatal miscalculation when they appointed Hitler chancellor in 1933.
They were sure they could control him. Instead, he quickly got control of them.
But the rank-and-file German soldiers did just what ours do. When their govern-ment called, they responded. When their government went to war, they fought in it. It's very hard to see a conflict from the other's point of view, but everyone ought to try. What you find if you can succeed are human beings just like us.

The descendants of those German sol-diers have every right to be proud of their ancestors' military accomplishments, just as we are proud of ours. They fought heroically under extremely bad circum-stances and deserve credit for their courage, their discipline and their com-petence. The young men in the German army, navy and air force gave their all for their country, even though some of them despised its leadership.
Sixty years after the fact, it's time for the world to get off Germany's back and let it assume its rightful place among the family of nations without people con-stantly laying a guilt trip on the German people. A war hero is a war hero, and Germany certainly has had its share of true heroes who deserve to be honored by their countrymen.


Best Regards,

K
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saudadesdefrancesinhas
Posted: September 17, 2006 11:25 am
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QUOTE (Helmut Von Moltke @ September 17, 2006 12:21 am)
European front agaisnt Bolshevism? Well, not officially, but there were 2 million foregin volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS and the majority of their motivations was to fight Bolshevism. Look at the battle at Narva in 1944 when Wallonians, Flems, Latvians, Estonians, Norwegians, Swedes, etc of the III. SS Panzer Korps fought and died side by side. Or how enthusiastically the famous Wallonian SS officer Leon Degrelle and the 5. SS Sturmbrigade 'Wallonie' was greeted when they returned to Brussels in 1944 after the breakout at Cherkassy. Or how the Danish government officially gave support to the SS Frikorps Danmark which fought on the Eastern front, was enthusiastically received yet got thier backs turned on by a turncoat government at the end of the war.


Umm, Soviet soldiers actually didn't actually think that they were fighting for Communism. Stalin told them they were fighting for Mother Russia, knowing that the ideas of Marx would not inspire millions of Russians, despite the fact that no Russia existed. The Eastern front was just part of Bolshevism's greater ambitions. If they were so eager to eliminate a threat to them, then why did they try so desperatly to try to take more land in 1945?

True that Stalin did not have a concrete plan for a recreation of the Red Army's foiled attempt of the early 1920s. But then why else would there by hundreds of Soviet divisions?

I haven't seen any in English bookstores I have been to, other than 'Gulag archipelago", which is hidden away in a corner, while books about the holocaust are all over the place. There are hardly any Hollywood type movies about Communist crimes, unlike the holocaust, with thr exception of 'The killing fields' about Pol Pot.

QUOTE
Also, the negative aspects of the British Empire are widely known and condemned here in the UK. There are always new TV programs and books exploring massacres and the evils of the colonial system, and debating these subjects.)


But they still hold Germany as the scapegoat right? And millions of dollars are still flogged out of Geramny each month in reparations to Isreal right? Adter 60 years it can hardly be said it was reparations. In this case, why don't the Russians give out reparations to minorities they deported to the Gulags? Or why don't the British give reparations to it's Colonies? They don't have to, and neither does Germany. It's all about money, yet again.

This was not how the average German felt. They did not want war. Sure, would they feel wrong and misguided in 1936 when the Rhineland was re-militarised? It is important to understand the war from all viewpoints, whether you agree or disagree with it or not. History is open to interpertation.

Ahem, many of the rapes were commited by rear supply troops drunk on vodka and propaganda, unlike the front line Soviet troops, who, although with many exceptions, many were civilised to the population. That myth is busted in "Berlin - The Downfall" by Antony Beevor. After all, didn't some Soviet troops even rape Russian women after they were released from German forced labour?

QUOTE
The times when the German soldiers were defending their civilians were the times when they were not acting immorally. It is the times when they were that I was thinking of, when the officers and men of the wehrmacht fought to fulfill Hitler's war aims.


The average Lander was not an aggressive animal who wanted to conquer the world. They, like all soldiers, just wanted to 'get it over with and go home'. Despite all causes or what they were fighting for, many soldiers at the end realsie they were misused by politicians, whether Hitler, Stalin, or Churchill, and "in the words of a Dutch Waffen-SS veteran i know, "marched together as a reminder of what war is".

QUOTE
Obviously, then, not all German soldiers agreed with Nazi methods and ideology, just like not all Germans would have in anyway approved of things the Nazis did in their name. However, rehabilitating the memory of people who fought for the Nazi aims and in defence of the Nazi cause, whether willingly or not, will always be a difficult and uncertain thing.


right. Read this:

QUOTE
German people have right to honor their war heroes
by:CHARLEY REESE
Charley Reese is a columnist for King Features Syndicate. You can write to him at P.O. Box 2446, Orlando, Fla.

It is time to consign World War II propaganda to the dustbin of history and allow the German people to revere their military heroes. They certain-ly had a lot of them in World War II.
I am not, of course, talking about the Nazi regime. I'm talking about the ordinary German soldiers who, like the ordinary American and British soldiers, went to war when their political leaders told them to go war. The battlefield exploits of the German army were outstanding.

As Americans, we should thank God that so many Ger-man divisions were being chewed up on the Eastern Front, because if they had been in Normandy, we'd probably still be trying to get ashore. Some British guy once said that nobody knows what real war is until he fights the Germans. The German soldiers of World War II certainly proved that.
Another British historian observed that whenever the Allies and the Germans were on an equal footing, the Allies lost.
It was America's industrial might and the Red Army that finally wore them down, disadvantaged as they were by loony leaders in Berlin. |
It's a truism among soldiers that once the war starts, nobody fights for political goals — they fight to save themselves and their comrades. All of those young Germans who died in that savage war deserve to be remembered for their cou-rage and their fidelity to duty and not be tarred by the sins of political leaders far from the battlefield.
Some German soldiers committed atrocities, but so did we all, as every side always does in wars. But the majority of the German soldiers were guilty of noth-ing but doing their duty, and there is no reason for any German today to be asham-ed of them. Most of them were fighting for their homes and families and not for Nazi ideology.
It's ironic that of all the wartime lead-ers, Josef Stalin profited most. Franklin Roosevelt died before the war ended. Winston Churchill was voted out of office shortly after the war. Adolf Hitler, of course, died in his bunker, a suicide. What did the war accomplish? Aside from removing two bad governments, it ac-complished the enslavement of half of Europe, the deaths of 55 million people and the beginning of the Cold War. That so many millions of young men, as well as millions of innocent civilians on all sides, died because of a bunch of politi-cians and despots is enough to make you weep.
This past week, there was a lot of silly talk about whether the Germans were conquered or liberated. They were con-quered and treated quite badly immedi-ately after the war by the Americans, the British and the Russians. Many died of starvation and illness. Several million Germans in western Poland were forced out of their homes as Stalin moved Poland's boundaries to the west to keep the eastern part within the Soviet Union.
Hitler had duped the German people just as our politicians dupe us. Nobody who has seen how easily Americans are swayed by demagogues should criticize the German people. The politicians in the old Weimar Republic made a fatal miscalculation when they appointed Hitler chancellor in 1933.
They were sure they could control him. Instead, he quickly got control of them.
But the rank-and-file German soldiers did just what ours do. When their govern-ment called, they responded. When their government went to war, they fought in it. It's very hard to see a conflict from the other's point of view, but everyone ought to try. What you find if you can succeed are human beings just like us.

The descendants of those German sol-diers have every right to be proud of their ancestors' military accomplishments, just as we are proud of ours. They fought heroically under extremely bad circum-stances and deserve credit for their courage, their discipline and their com-petence. The young men in the German army, navy and air force gave their all for their country, even though some of them despised its leadership.
Sixty years after the fact, it's time for the world to get off Germany's back and let it assume its rightful place among the family of nations without people con-stantly laying a guilt trip on the German people. A war hero is a war hero, and Germany certainly has had its share of true heroes who deserve to be honored by their countrymen.


Best Regards,

K

Hello Von Moltke,

It has been interesting discussing these things with you.

Concerning the foreign volunteers, this is not what I meant by a European Front against Bolshevism. Instead of collaborationist and extremist racist groups, which is where the Western European SS formations found most of their recruits, or Eastern European people who chose to fight from dislike of the Russians, but who were being exploited and misled by the Germans (there was no intention, on the part of the Germans, for allowing the Slavic peoples any real independence, or any kind of independent Nation, even for allied nations like Slovakia c.f. Mark Axworthy's recent book 'Hitler's Slavic Wedge'.), I meant a front involving independent Nations, supported by free democratic of national governments, not puppet governments set up by the Germans.

Didn't the Germans kill Degrelle?

I think the comments you make about the motivations of the Soviet soldier are factually wrong. See Catherine Merridale's recent book 'Ivan's War', where she discusses in great detail the motivation of the Soviets soldiers and it's various facets.

One argument for the size of the Red Army is that Russia was a massive country. Also, Stalin was paranoid about a possible invasion by the Western Powers, as had happened during the Civil War. There are two possible explanations at least.

It seems that it is a long time since you have been in a UK bookshop, it sounds like pre-1990. Off the top of my head, recent books dealing with Communist History that I have bought, Anne Applebaum's book 'Gulag' (there were television documentaries about the Gulag in the last few years, including a three hour long one), Stasiland by Anna Funder, A People's Tragedy by Orlando Figes, Ivan's War by Catherine Merridale, Koba the Dread (biography of Stalin) by Martin Amis, Robert Service's biography of Stalin, Robert Service's book about the Purges whose title I forget etc. These are all things I have bought in the local bookshop.
A widely sold title in France and other countries is also the handy 'livre noir du communisme' a big compendium listing all the crimes of communist regimes.

I think there is a special reason for Germany paying reparations to Israel and it is the Holocaust. It is hard to find many equivalents to the Holocaust in world history, I don't think it is valid to draw comparasions either between the Holocaust and the British Empire, or even many of the USSR's crimes.

I don't know what evidence you have for disassociating so completely the Nazi regime from the German people as a whole. This seems absolutely crucial to your argument, but wholly based on assumptions about the German's of 60 years ago which you have no way of testing are valid. Again a number of books are useful here; particularly Ian Kershaw's book 'The Hitler Myth' which explores popular support for the Fuhrer and his policies. Even from the example I quoted, it was visible that while there were some Germans who opposed the Nazis, there were many, like Von Brauchitsch who were complicit and encouraged them.

While you are eager to praise the men who fought for the Fuhrer and his Europe, what if they had won? They were fighting to impose the Fuhrer's vision, and all the attitudes that went with it, on the world, and Nazi domination, whether they were personally in favour of it or not. It is important to remember that while they were fighting at the front, it was to protect and facilitate what the einsatzgruppen, what Mengele etc. the Gauleiter and the Nazi functionaries were doing in the rear areas.

This is why it is always going to be difficult to rehabilitate the memory of these men, however brave and heroic many were. It is also why many Germans would shy away from doing so, because how can you safely rehabilitate their memory without also rehabilitating the cause and mentality they fought for?

If you want German heros, there are many to be found outside such a controversial and bloodstained period, who were not involved in any degree in crimes such as that of the Third Reich.
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Helmut Von Moltke
Posted: September 18, 2006 12:41 pm
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Hi,

Actually about the Western European Waffen-SS volunteers, many were youthful patriotis who joined out of patriotism and anti-communism. Many had nothing to do with Nazi parties. Some were looking for advernture. Some were just old soldiers who wanted to fight again. Some, were officially encourraged by their governments, like the government of Denmark or the Vichy government, which at that time was recognized by the USA, judging that it was legitimate since the USA negotiated with it. And not mentioning, the brave Spanishvolunteers of the Spanish 250. Infantarie Division, "Divsion Azul", officially envouraged to join by Franco and the Spanish government, to take revenge on the country that had nearly taken Spain into Bolshevik anarachy. The anti Bolshevik cause that these volunteers fought for was noble, but the people in charge of controlling them and many of the people who encouraged them to join were evil and sisniter characters.

And no the Germans didn't kill Leon Degrelle, who was a holder of the Oak Leaves to the Knight's Cross, who fought until the end of the war then managed to escape to Spain in a plane where he lived in exile until he passed away in 1994.

Speaking of bookshops, I have been to the UK last year, and the first few things I saw in a bookstore were books on Auschwitz, maybe the 100000000th one.... also the English bookstores in my place confirm this. But of course, there may be exceptions with some bookstores who have more wider selction of books.

Well about why I praise German soldiers and the European volunteers? They were soldiers like any other. They have received 60 years of non stop defamtaion and libel from the victor's justice. Most of them fought for their fatherland and not Hitler. Have you read 'Black Edelweiss" by a former Waffen-SS soldier, who said that had the German people realised what the Nazis were doing the German people won't have ought for them. A first hand account, more reliable than some historian's, and many historians have a left wing bias when dealing with Nazi related issues, not being objective, etc. And if Germany won WWII? Most likely, the NS regime would topple after a 'cold war' with the Western powers, Gorbachev style. But Communism would have been eliminated as an ideology, with the destruction of it's main sponsor, the Soviet Union.

Many Germans shy away from honouring their war heroes since it is politcally incorrect, and of course not popular with the current left wing goverment run by fools who don't know what they are talking about. This was a much different story under Adenauer, a good German president who managed to get German POWs out of the Soviet Union and at least had a good word for German soldiers, and even truthfully said the truth that "The Waffen-SS were soldiers like any other". It will be a cold day in hell when Schroeder, Merkel, or Fischer would say this.

And heroes? Would you consider Stauffenberg a hero? A hero is a hero, no matter what cause he fights for, whether he wears a German, Soviet, Japanese, American or British uniform, and deserves to be respected and honoured as such, unless he commited war crimes. And fortuantely, among a considerable number of people Rommel and Guderian are still heroes, but it's most likely that in the near future left wing brainwashed youngsters who know nothing about the Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS would say "They were just huns!" Frankly, I wouldn't care what a person thinks whther it is appropiate or not, as long as he dosen't try to stop me or other people from respecting and honouring heroes of any country, then ok. I've had it with controversy and "sensitiviness".

And what is the 'special reason' that Germany pays compenstaion to Israel? 60 years of millions of Marks and Euros? Hasn't Germany apologsied enough already? It is offensive to millions of other victims of other genocides to say that the holocaust is unique. Sure, it was a terrible genocide, and anyone know denies it, like Enrst Zundel, should be ignored. But there is no need to drone aobut it for financial gain, which is still happening after 60 years. Can't anyone let sleeping dogs lie? Forgive and forget!

Peace!

K



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Victor
Posted: September 18, 2006 02:36 pm
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QUOTE (Helmut Von Moltke @ September 18, 2006 02:41 pm)
Many Germans shy away from honouring their war heroes since it is politcally incorrect, and of course not popular with the current left wing goverment run by fools who don't know what they are talking about. This was a much different story under Adenauer, a good German president who managed to get German POWs out of the Soviet Union and at least had a good word for German soldiers, and even truthfully said the truth that "The Waffen-SS were soldiers like any other". It will be a cold day in hell when Schroeder, Merkel, or Fischer would say this.

I seriously doubt that Germans "shy away" from honoring their fallen soldiers. They have invested time and money in taking care of German war graves outside Germany and are constantly trying to locate new graves (Schroeder's father's burial site was located in Romania only several years ago, for example). IMHO, they are doing a good job honoring their dead soldiers.

And Adenauer was not the German president, but the chancellor of the FRG.

Also I don't see what the fact that Germany still pays reparations to Israel have to do with the topic at hand. After all it's their money and can do whatever they please with it.
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saudadesdefrancesinhas
Posted: September 18, 2006 09:39 pm
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I think it is Jacques Doirot I meant, not Degrelle.
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saudadesdefrancesinhas
Posted: September 18, 2006 09:43 pm
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Also, on what grounds in a former SS soldier's opinion more likely to be truthful or accurate than a historian's? Since he had a close personal involvement it might be a valuable, but necessarily entirely reliable source, he may just be speaking for himself.



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New Connaught Ranger
Posted: September 18, 2006 10:15 pm
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"The majority of German soldiers and it's Romanian, Hungarian, Finnish allies and hundreds of thousands of foreign Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS volunteers on the Eastern front were fighting for a better Europe",

Would you care to post a breakdown on from what countries outside “Romania, Hungary, and Finland these troops came from? and in what numbers these soldiers were supplied.

I believe the Fins sat next to Leningrad however took no part in the attack on the city due to the fear of a massive Russian retaliation against Finland.

"a united Europe along the lines of Napoleon a century ago. There was nothing wrong with that dream, there was only something wrong with the National socialist regime in charge of making it happen.

Had it not been for these young men, Stalin's soldiers would be marching under the Arc de Triumph in Paris sometime in the early 1940s."


Very doubtful that the Russian Army could have made its way to the outskirts of Berlin in 1940 with the equipment and losses in leadership of officers in the Stalinist purges.

The Eastern front is a cause I am deeply sympathetic too, even though I have nothing but contempt for National Socialism and Adolf Hitler. Communism was the black death of the 20th century. Even General Vlasov, commander of the Wehrmacht Russian Army of liberation, found National Socialism less repugnant. That is why so many Estonians, Latvians, Ukrainians, etc volunteered to fight the black death of Bolshevism despite the cruel occupation of the "Reich commissars".


The Bolsheviks wouldn't have stopped in Poland in 1939, when they met the Wehrmacht during the uneasy Ribbentrop Molotov pact. The Bolshevik Satan inspired disease had swallowed the Baltic Nations, Bessarabia followed by a frenzy of mass murder by the NKVD, tried to take Finland and almost gained control in Spain, where they committed numerous crimes. Bolshevism was committed to global expansions and world wide conquest, as stated by Marx, who wanted a one world state, which ironically some neo cons are pressing for right now.

What is a neo con ?? another new German word?


We owe a debt to the men from 30 different nations who served in the Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS and the armed forces of Hungary, Romania, and Finland who died in the struggle against Stalin.

Would you care to list the 30 Nations? Let me help you start:

Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS = 1, Hungary = 2, Romania = 3, Finland = 4, only another 26 to go.

So the troops who died fighting against the Poles, Czechs, Dutch, Belgians, French, Greeks, British, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders etc., count for nothing.

The fact that the National Socialist regime and Adolf Hitler were evil and genocidal does not detract from this. In a society free of globalization and communism and political correctness, they would surely go down as a triumph of the human spirit engaged in a fight against Communism.


So the fact that the soldiers who were firm believers in Adolf Hitler and the N.S regime, which you yourself stated were evil and genocidal, does not make them evil and genocidal too ??


To this day, veterans of the Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht are still being harassed by a vocal group of nutjobs, who considers their service on “the losing side” renders them fair game for harassment. To this day veterans of the Waffen-SS do not receive veterans’ pensions from the German government, despite the fact that they gave up their youth for their country.

What is a “nutjob” ?? did you just invent a new word ?? or is it German??

They get harassed for being a bunch of sadistic, murdering swine, who were on the losing side and why should the German taxpayer pay a bunch of criminals a pension for giving up their youth to go on a killing spree in other countries following the orders of a madman.


The son of the famous Jochen Peiper was harassed in Germany just because of his father. Hopefully he is having a better life in the USA now.

I am sure you meant to write “infamous” Jocheim Pieper, because of the fact he ordered the execution in cold blood of American P.O.W. in Malmeday. As for his son I doubt if he is running around the US shouting of his mouth about what a great dad he had and about his murdering father, there are still a few American Ww2 veterans alive in the USA who would close it for him.

Look at what happened with John Demanjuk in the USA. He now faces possible deportation despite the fact that he was innocent of the charges he was accused of.

John Demanjuk, is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and if it is decided there is a case for him to answer to then that’s the way it is. Nobody has condemned him to his remaining life in prison yet.

The numbers of “nazi hunters” has sure increased. I am proud of presenting these men as they were, nothing more or less than men who who put on a uniform and fought for their country.

Not only has there been an increase in Nazi-Hunters, but there has been a global increase in the mentally retarded who call themselves Neo-Nazi, especially those who would not pass the racial criteria that was laid down by adolf and his gang of idiots.

Of course you are proud to present these men as they were, nothing more or less than the men who donned a uniform and fought for their country totally ignoring the Geneva convention, carrying out mass murder of POWs and torture, rape, & extermination of many ethnic people who didn’t come up to their standard of the Arian super mench (I am not so sure what they would think about yourself as you don’t quite fit into this racial category either.)

I know I will be considered a neo-Nazi by some idiots who don’t know what they are talking about, but frankly I don’t care. Were I am neo-Nazi, many of the people I call friends would drop me like a stone in the water.

Many of the people you call friends?? Can’t be all that many asian neo-Nazis out there, you must stand in a corner with a bag over your head at the rallies, or do you conduct all your business online via websites afraid of what the arian nation would do to you if they met you in person.



Then it comes to the question of all the lies and abuses thrown at the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS.

Of course it must be all lies and abuses, however could you explain the defeat of such a glorious fighting force, how could these wundermench loose??

Even if some soldiers in the Wehrmacht, though not a small amount but definitely far from the majority, mistreated and shot people, it hardly speaks out as the holy truth of the Wehrmacht.

There was no “even if” about it, not only did the Wehrmacht mistreat and shoot people they were stupid enough to allow themselves being filmed doing it.

Anyone with knowledge of the German military ethos understands that these actions run contrary to the German military code of discipline, order, and honour. See all the German court martials.

Obviously you have no idea, because the ss didn’t follow the old military code of discipline and order, that was for the Junker Class old farts in the Heer, they the ss, were Adolfs golden boys, who could do as they liked when on the rampage on the Western or Eastern Fronts, they were going to re-write the rule book, and unfortunately for them they LOST.

Read "The Wehrmacht war crimes tribunal" by Alfred de Zayas. Don't forget the fact that rape was punished by death in the German military.

Rape was punishable by death in all armies, only you had to be caught in the act, and then you had to have a military procedure, willing to follow through with a court-martial. But most of the offender’s officers were busy doing the same thing so not much chance of a trial there.

Just check out the "10 commandments of the German soldier", on the Soldbuch of every German soldier, which stated:

As was pointed out your “10 Commandments of the German Soldier” on the Soldbuch seems to have shrunk to 5 in reality, and were not worth the paper they were printed on.

It all boiled down to one rule “Try not to get caught doing any of this 5, Thieving, Looting, Thuggery, Buggery or Rape.”

In many memoirs of German soldiers and officers there are many instances of the good relations that existed between the Wehrmacht / Waffen-SS and the civilian population until the Gestapo and the Nazi party arrived.

Of course in the memoirs of the German soldiers and officers they wrote of the many instances of the good relations that existed, between themselves (the conquering heroes) and the vanquished losers, after all a book full of looting, murder, killing and raping would hardly make a best seller, it was a way for them to present themselves in a new light to the people back home, after all they were hardly going to admit to breaking all the normal rules of civilisation were they.

Have people not forgotten all the children produced by the romances of local girls and German soldiers? German soldiers were not the ruthless Nazis as portrayed by the mass media.

I am sure there were children produced by liaisons with females in occupied countries it would be interesting to know the statistics for children born out of rape inflicted by German soldiers, after all not many rapists were in the habit of putting on a preservative first.


Most were not Nazis and good natured, ordinary people.

Most common excuse encountered by the Allied forces as they moved into Germany, fact was unless you were a member of the party, served with the HJ, BDM or the RAD or the Partei you had no chance to do anything or be anybody in the new Reich.

The fact remains that many objective military historians agree that overall generally with exceptions, despite the attempts of the Bartovs, the Wehrmacht is deemed to have fought a clean war by the standards of the time, despite some people not knowing what the Geneva Convention back then. They sound cruel to us, but the rules of war back then were tougher. This applies to WWII, as the Geneva conventions and the laws of war have changed.

What a load of crap, where is this FACT stated?? it is only in recent years, after much study, that it has been discovered just how much the Wehrmact was implicated in the atrocities of WW2, including those committed by the Police Division Units made up exclusively of former German City, town & country policemen, who would have had a larger and greater understanding of the rights and wrongs of the law both civil and Military.
Along with this the murders and killings as reprisals of Greek civilians by Gebergjäger Divisions while stationed in Greece, as well as the civil populations who generally suffered in the Adriatic and Balkans under Nazi occupation.

The basic principles of the Geneva Convention remain the same today as when they were first formed, (which any person with a degree of sanity could never refer to as “They sound cruel to us”) what’s cruel about respecting the life of prisoners of war, respecting the use of a white flag, respecting the red cross symbol, what’s cruel about respecting the life of civilians who are caught between opposing forces.
Remember it was the Germans who perfected the art of machine-gunning refuges in Holland & Belgium during there invasion.

The problem with discussing such issues is that one often finds himself dealing with persons who close themselves to anything else than propaganda and what they believe is the truth, and they degenerate to throwing insults like "neo-Nazi", etc. Add on the facts that these people have the control of the mass media.

There is no problem discussing this issue, but you do not discuss, you lecture, the most closed person on this post is yourself and you have swallowed the nazi propaganda hook-line and sinker, you infer that every historian and writer, is wrong, you reject history for the sake of your narrow minded views, they must be wrong because that’s the only way in your tiny mind you can overcome the sad deep disappointment of your dream world being defeated.

And not to mention, the heresy of mentioning Stalin's crimes, which in some people's eyes automatically assigns the person who said it into a category of revisionists and holocaust deniers. The Bolsheviks murdered far more innocent people than the Nazis did, this does not excuse or minimize what the Nazis did, but it does give an insight into why some people feel that victims of Nazism are somehow more special and more important than victims of Bolshevism, by never mentioning them in the mass media, which is offensive in the extreme to Gulag survivors, just as much as a holocaust denier would offend holocaust survivors. Yet, Gulag survivors hardly have any mass media at their control. You see, it's all about money. They make money out of this, so they drone about it. The world is run by money nowadays. Which brings me to the final question which brings this to an end. What makes the murder of a Slav or a Jew any worse than a murder of a German or anyone else for racial, religious or political reasons?

Of course there were crimes committed under Stalin, not only against the peoples of the USSR but to the peoples of the occupied Soviet satellite states as well, but do you really think the Western Allied Nations, who had just suffered collectively millions of deaths fighting the Nazis, then go on to fight for the rights of the oppressed Russian peoples?

One has to be very realistic here, if the great aryian nation had just got its ass-kicked by a bunch of sub-humans from the steppes of Siberia and Mongolia, the Allied Nations knew they were no match for the USSR.

There is only a certain amount of things people can do in this situation, the Western powers needed time to regroup and strengthen their armies, but in this time of build up, the Soviets managed to match the power and the strength of the Allied Nations, once the Soviet states had access to atomic weapons then it was a whole new ball game, nobody wanted to risk a Global Nuclear war and so a massive game of Standoff, with Bluff & counter-Bluff was played and continued to be played to the end of the Cold War.

Now the USSR has been dismantled the true story of what happened behind the Iron Curtain can come out, true, its to late to help the oppressed victims of communism. But in all reality could the west have done anything sooner? I don’t think so.

A complex issue indeed. Have you forgotten the case in Poland where an SS-VT man was tried by a Wehrmacht court martial for burning down a synagouge and killing 40 Jews and was sentanced to death, but unfortuantely Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler managaed to cancel the order? Actually about the Commissar order, althought they were issused by Feldmarschall Keitel, many German commanders chose to not pass it on, with notable brutal exceptions like Feldmarschall Reichenau. Feldmarschall von Rundsdedt managed to contain the Commando order, with an exception of a Kriegsmarine execution or hand over to the SD.

One case of a SS-VT man whom you cite, who suffered no punishment at all is a pathetic attempt to whitewash all the crimes committed by Nazi-Germany

so to you Germans can't be victims eh? I wonder how you would feel if your family was German, you were in WWII and they all died via an Allied bombing raid or Red Army brutality? What if one of the murdered Germans there was your father, mother, brother or sister?

No. I am not a German, and neither are you, not matter how much you wish it was otherwise, I am of English decent and my sympathies would naturally fall towards my Mothers people who bore the brunt of nazi air-raid attacks on their country, and why would I feel so much sympathy for the nation that started the war??

Of course there were German victims, the mentally handicapped and physically handicapped the German doctors were ordered to kill off in order to strengthen the flower of German youth, to weed out the racial impurities, the German Jews, the common German people who protested about Hitler and his bunch of nazi criminals, and who disappeared in the dark of night in the back of a Gestapo car, the members of the opposition political parties who were sent to re-education camps like Dachau, for daring to oppose that Austrian corporal.

And of course my sympathy lies with the millions of people from the various nations of Europe and the world that had to suffer and die while the Third Reich lived the big lie of the Thousand Year Reich. Thankfully Germany will never have the chance to succeed again, all that will remain are little pockets of simpleminded morons, who will be crying into their beer about the good old days, of which 90% of them were never born to know anything about.


And the thousands of men women and children who faced death and injury fighting against the Axis, including those on the other side of the world fighting the Yellow Peril, who were busy perusing their own plans of racial supremacy (and all along turned out they were just a branch of the Korean family tree, Bushido my ass).

Well, naturally Hitler would be popular among Germans because he managed to throw off the shackles of the humiliating Treaty of Versailles, and made Germany rich and powerful again. Most Germans would support Hitler out of his foreign policies.

Anybody who managed to delude the German people into thinking they had been mistreated by the Treaty of Versailles would have been considered good, it has to be remembered that all through WW1 despite the loss of Thousands of German men and boys to the meat-grinder of WW1, and including the deaths of many civilians through malnutrition caused by all food stocks being appropriated for the armies, and deaths through the dreaded Spanish Influenza, Germany had suffered very little actual war damage, there was no fighting on German soil per say, no artillery dropping shells or aircraft dropping bombs on German cities, towns or villages, unlike the Graff Zeppelin attacks on the UK or the long range bombing by artillery of Paris. When the Armistice was called whole units of the German army marched off to their home in cities towns and villages unscathed by war, only sparsely populated in men folk.

How easy for the Prussian / German population to feel indignation when the Allies demanded and got recompense for the damage and destruction of their property, Also at the end of WW1 the class barriers were broken, men who had fought in the trenches for years suddenly experienced a new sense of freedom, no longer under the thumb of the upper classes, new political beliefs were offered to the people, and some felt the dangers of communism, how easy for an Austrian upstart ex-corporal, failed student-painter, mamas boy, to weave and twist the minds of the deluded, to explain the wicked treacherous defeat of Germany and who was behind it, and how Germany was the victim, how Germany had a right to express itself politically and militarily.

I highly doubt that most Germans would vote for him if he said he wanted to kill Jews in concentration camps. He had a very effective propaganda sysmtem to keep check of such things.

In the early days of the NSDAP there was no discussion about camps, re-education or otherwise, for the “Jewish problem” he proposed to remove them from their place in German society, for having stabbed Germany in the back, for making Germany to poor to continue the fight in WW1, they must give up their positions in society, the jobs, their business, their bank accounts, and pay to leave the country. This was the propaganda mission embarked upon and for a time he managed not only to fool the world, but the German population until his bully boys had the power, the guns, the army.


For example, a German veteran I know, said that his father was once arrested for making deragtory remarcks about Hitler, and spent some time in a KZ, yet when he was released, he still believed the propaganda of the KZs being rehabiliation centres.

Many persons went through Dachau in 1934 when it was a re-education camp, after a taste of the hospitality provided by the ss nobody who went back for a second treatment survived.

Those who spent their time there, upon release were to scared to talk for fear of being sent back, a nonconformist in Germany was a marked man or woman, always watched, always waiting for the sound of a knock on the door in the middle of the night

And didn't many German officers want their land back after they were taken by the Poles in 1919? And after all, when Hitler had his first confrence with Reichswehr generals in 1933 shortly after taking power, he made a speech about conquering Lebensraum, and the generals didn't care very much, and only supported his wants for a larger army. After all, didn't General Ludwig Beck, chief of staff, oppose Hitler's plans for Czechoslovakia?

What an inconsistent statement are you asking a question with regards the needs of German officers or telling us?

And after all? What? Hitler made many speeches cleverly designed to tell people what they wanted to hear, if the Generals were interested only in military expansion then that’s what they wanted to hear, and you make a big thing out of one General, who opposed Hitler’s plan for Czechoslovakia, through the course of the war many officers in high rank opposed Hitler’s mad schemes, his total lack of knowledge to grasp the reality of the situation on the ground, after all he was a mere corporal in military training, who though that by transcribing a few lines on a map in his HQ, miracles would happen on the ground.

The Einsatzgruppe was not that big. How is the Red Army raping a woman in Nemmesdorf or pretty much anywhere else in Eastern Germany revenge? And it can hardly be revenge when the Red Army raped many women in Poland, and their own women as well after they were released from forced labour in Germany.

Again you attempt to use the actions of one small group to cover the multitude of crimes, The Einsatzgruppe were convicted killers, and rapists the scum of the German jails and military prisons, their job was to inflict terror on the populations of the occupied countries, they were given free hand to do as they liked, their actions along with the actions of the other animals in the Heer, the ss and other units especially in Russia, were observed by the Russian people, and the Russian military, and as history shows what you sow you reap, the Red Army gave back many times what they had seen done to their own people by the Nazis, I neither praise it or condemn it but I understand it. It is part of the mentality of war. But the point of fact is the German military inflicted this on the Russian and Slavic peoples first.

Another slip up you admited to there being forced labour, thats a nice word for Slavery isnt it!

I have nothing against soldiers in the Red Army or Allied armies, just as I have nothing against German soldiers or Japanese soldiers or whatever, as long as they didn't commit war crimes. My grandfather's brother was executed by the Japanese in 1942. Yet my grandfather and I don't hold any grudges against Japan. After all, my grandfather was saved by a Japanese soldier and my grandfather still speaks highly of him. No feeling of revenge there.
This should apply to the European theatre of WWII as well. For heaven's sake, it was 60 years ago. Why can't people just forgive and forget?



Again you make an inconsistent statement: the fact is German & Japanese soldiers did commit war crimes, if anything the Japanese have got away with their portion of crimes, for what they did in China, Korea, and the Philippines etc. But slowly and surely the truth emerges.

Some people have a great capacity to forgive the sins of their enemies, most do not.
When somebody hears the rantings of a neo-nazi idiot why should we be quiet, time does not deminish the enormity of the crimes commited by the Nazis.

Why then you should want to sing the praises of an regime that was seen as evil by many during the years 1939 - 1945, you do not want to forgive or forget, you profess to having no problems with the Japanese, but you have no time for the Russians, you stated in a previous post the following:

“Just as the modern EU governments drone aobut globalization and "mulit culturism" and let in hordes of fast breeding immigrants who instead of assimilating, choose to join in with the EU in hurling several thousands years of the highest Western cultures in the world into the traschcan to make room for themselves and to make more money.”

Now if thats not Racist, ignorance I dont know what is.

German soldiers defending their country from the Red Army's advance in order to gain time for the Western Allies to advance, during 1945, isn't an evil cause. Blah! Blah! Blah!

The Germans weren’t waiting for the Allies to come and save them, the Allies were busy killing as many of the fanatics as the Red Army were, you make it sound like the were waiting for the Allies to come and fight the Red Army and evil communism. The evil that was Nazi Terror had been in existence from the days before they marched over the Polish Border,

Kriegsmarine sailors rescuing refugees from surroudned areas isn't an evil cause. Blah! Blah! Blah!

But the German Navy was already part of the Nazi terror, a few” good deeds” at the end of the war was not enough to whitewash their record.


And turning back on morality? The Wehrmacht had chaplains. Kurt Meyer told the lads of 12. SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend' to ignore thr hogwash pagain crap of Himmler and keep to Christian ways. Blah! Blah! Blah!

These same murderers in the ss only had one god adolf Hitler and he failed them, in their hour of need.


Willi Bittrich let his troops attend mass, despite the fact that the Waffne-SS was supposed to be 'Gottglaubig" before the war. BLAH! BLAH!

Before the shit hits the fan, God can be rediscovered at the bottom of a fox-hole, but its after you die you have to pay for the sins you commit in your life.


And about examples. Well, it cannot be denied that men like Rommel, Guderian, Erich Hartmann, Erich Topp and Michael Wittmann were magnificent and strong men, even if the regime they fought under was evil. More men like these and we would not be afraid of so called "terrorists" today.

Out of your list, there was only one man who saw the path of destruction Germany had embarked upon, one who had fought a relatively clean war in Africa, one who had the courage to be involved in the assasanation attempt on the Austrian corporal, one who had the strength of conviction to take his own life to spare his wife and son the concentration camp, and that was Erwin Rommel, who even earned the respect of his enemies.

As for the rest the names you cite Nazi scum, Hartmann only saved his neck by volunteering his services to the Americans, scum like Wittman only good till his luck ran out in Belgium. All they have in common is that they were losers.


This type of drivel is the same sentiment spewed out by the Nazis and their sympathizers, by your own mouth you have confessed to being a neo-Nazi, therefore you have broken the rules of the forum, and by your own confession should be banned, it is now up to the administration to take the appropriate action, to remove you and any others of your type from a history forum. [b]
[b]NAZI RAUS.


Kevin in Deva

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Victor
Posted: September 19, 2006 07:15 am
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New Connaught Ranger, please calm down. There is no need to be so aggressive. I am sure that you can find a more civil way of voicing your opinions, without insulting other members.
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New Connaught Ranger
Posted: September 19, 2006 07:36 am
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Dear Victor :D

I am very calm, but highly amazed, at the way the administration here tolarate flagrent breaches of forum rules with regards the open posting of extreme right-wing views and denials of history.

How can it be insulting to give my opinion on what is posted by a self-confessed neo-nazi?* I have put my opinion alongside everyone of his statements.

* His own confession, not my unfounded accusation.


With regards insults, His posts are an insult to the very memory of the people who lived and died fighting the Nazi regime.

Kevin in Deva :D
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Victor
Posted: September 19, 2006 09:44 am
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I think you should re-read the passage involving the supposed Neo-Nazi confession. He actually states that he isn't one, even though some people may accuse him of it.

He hasn't denied Holocaust or German warcrimes.

The only rules he is close to breaching are those regarding civility and posting a rather racist comment about immigrants in Europe. But I can think of others who aren't too civil either.

I know "Helmut von Moltke" (btw, it's Helmuth, with an H at the end) from AHF, where the forum staff (of which I am part of also) decided to ban him following several nonsense posts. He has also been banned from Feldgrau recently, as I understand. However, these are not reasons enough to ban him here also, without a flagrant breach of the guidelines. Who knows, maybe he will learn something from an argumented discussion. After all, putting the fist into the mouth of people who think different was the way of the Nazis and of the Communists and to honor the memory of those who died to eliminate such regimes from the face of the Earth between 1939 and 1989 it is appropriate IMHO to act in a democratic way.

If this discussion is to continue in a proper manner, I would like to start seeing some sources when talking about warcrimes, as required by the forum rules. Generalizations won't lead us anywhere nice.
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saudadesdefrancesinhas
Posted: September 19, 2006 10:49 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ September 19, 2006 09:44 am)
After all, putting the fist into the mouth of people who think different was the way of the Nazis and of the Communists and to honor the memory of those who died to eliminate such regimes from the face of the Earth between 1939 and 1989 it is appropriate IMHO to act in a democratic way.

If this discussion is to continue in a proper manner, I would like to start seeing some sources when talking about warcrimes, as required by the forum rules. Generalizations won't lead us anywhere nice.

I have noted that as I became frustrated with the argument, I started posting my sources for every comment (because, my ideas are only as good as the books I have been reading to get the information).

However, the subject is quite emotive in itself. I have noticed that increasingly a line of argument I think Helmuth Von Moltke uses is to quote individual examples of German suffering, or to invoke the memories and suffering of German soldiers, in order to imply that anyone who criticises, or points out the ambiguities of the cause they were fighting for is in some way callous or inhuman etc.

For example, whilst I would not argue with the need to honour the dead of each country and not forget them, nor the fact that not all Germans were Nazis or believed strongly in the Nazi cause, even though they fought for it, rehabilitating en-masse the memory of that particular generation of German soldiers is fraught with political and social difficulties.

It seems to me that while some people go too far, or exploit for their own ends, the memory of the crimes committed by the Germans, it does not mean that everyone who condemns them is 'brain washed' or 'politically correct', or a 'communist'. I would think that confronted with what is available in terms of evidence anyone would start to have doubts about the era, and the behaviour of many Germans in it.

Von Moltke was going too far with simplistic generalisations, ignoring anything that challenged his views as 'Communist' or 'allied propaganda', or else trying to unilaterally and artificially seperate Hitler and the Nazis from German society as a whole. I do not think there is any credible evidence to allow such definitive judgements.

One thing not raised is also the contextualisation in the Nazi regime in an era of paranoia and world struggle left over from the first world war and the Russian Revolution, as attempted by German historians like Nolte. Still, instead of exploiting the memory of the dead of that era, or trying to bring back their attitudes and mindsets, you could let them rest in peace.

Honour them as far as they were honourable and did honourable things, but don't forget the bad they did either, and try and learn from what they did wrong and why they did it. If you have a religion you can pray for them.

Simplistic generalisations of the type 'the allies claim they were good and perfect, they weren't, therefore the Germans in fact were, or there was nothing odd about Nazism.' are not helpful, because they ignore so much.

There, I have finished my sermon,
AMEN!
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Helmut Von Moltke
Posted: September 19, 2006 11:23 am
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QUOTE
Would you care to post a breakdown on from what countries outside “Romania, Hungary, and Finland these troops came from? and in what numbers these soldiers were supplied.


QUOTE
Would you care to list the 30 Nations? Let me help you start:


Countries that had volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS.

Britain.
France.
Spain.
Switzerland.
Italy.
Wallonia.
Flanders.
Denmark.
Norway.
Sweden.
Finland.
Croatia.
Bosnia.
Ukraine.
Estonia.
Latvia.
East Caucasians.

No doubt, I could dig up into countries which had a few volunteers, but basically...

QUOTE
Very doubtful that the Russian Army could have made its way to the outskirts of Berlin in 1940 with the equipment and losses in leadership of officers in the Stalinist purges.


I didn't say 1940. No doubt though, that after 1941-42 there would have been have improvements.

QUOTE
What is a neo con


neo-conservative.

QUOTE
So the fact that the soldiers who were firm believers in Adolf Hitler and the N.S regime, which you yourself stated were evil and genocidal, does not make them evil and genocidal too ??


A person, no matter what uniform he wears, is not evil or genocidal until he acts that way. The average Lander who was conscripted was no way near like this.

QUOTE
I am sure you meant to write “infamous” Jocheim Pieper, because of the fact he ordered the execution in cold blood of American P.O.W. in Malmeday


I suggest that you read "The Devil's Adjuant" by Michael Reynolds first. And about the son thing, I was stating that it is hopeful that he wouldn't be harrased because of his family lines.

QUOTE
but there has been a global increase in the mentally retarded who call themselves Neo-Nazi, especially those who would not pass the racial criteria that was laid down by adolf and his gang of idiots.

Of course you are proud to present these men as they were, nothing more or less than the men who donned a uniform and fought for their country totally ignoring the Geneva convention, carrying out mass murder of POWs and torture, rape, & extermination of many ethnic people who didn’t come up to their standard of the Arian super mench (I am not so sure what they would think about yourself as you don’t quite fit into this racial category either.)


Neo-Nazis? Nothing more than a bunch of disatisfied idiots, really. All they do is shave their heads, paint swastikas, etc. It amazes me how people are so afriad of such a minroity of the extreme political spectrum. Sad that so much of the EU taxes are being wasted on a virtually non existent threat, instead of trying to make Europa better. National Socialism does not suceeded while a nation is rich, as shown with the 'well ebing' of the Weimar Republic from the middle to the end of the 1920s when the Great Depression started.

And making such wild claims about German soldiers isn't very wise for your case. Saying that they were that is like saying that all Soviet soldiers were Communists and raped and killed while all British airmen bombed innocent civilians. Generalisations aren't the best thing, you know. They are the one of the reasons that led to the holocaust and numerous other crimes in history. It's amazing how some politically correct people never learn lessons from the past. And not mentioning too, that many people that the Nazis considered as subhuman served in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS due to wartime manpower shortages. I'm sure you would have a difficult time branding them with your brush as well.

QUOTE
They get harassed for being a bunch of sadistic, murdering swine, who were on the losing side and why should the German taxpayer pay a bunch of criminals a pension for giving up their youth to go on a killing spree in other countries following the orders of a madman.


Again a generlisation. There were 18 million men who served in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS. Until you manage to come up with 18 million crimes, then you are wrong. Germany should be proud of her fighting men, great sons of her nation, just as Britain or America is.

QUOTE
Many of the people you call friends?? Can’t be all that many asian neo-Nazis out there, you must stand in a corner with a bag over your head at the rallies, or do you conduct all your business online via websites afraid of what the arian nation would do to you if they met you in person.


Amusing, really. I expected these insults all along. Not mentioning that some of my friends are Jews, and have a more objective approach to history than you. One of them even said that he had nothing against German soldiers, only against Hitler.

QUOTE
Of course it must be all lies and abuses, however could you explain the defeat of such a glorious fighting force, how could these wundermench loose??


What about Hitler's incompetent military decisions?


QUOTE
Obviously you have no idea, because the ss didn’t follow the old military code of discipline and order, that was for the Junker Class old farts in the Heer, they the ss, were Adolfs golden boys, who could do as they liked when on the rampage on the Western or Eastern Fronts, they were going to re-write the rule book, and unfortunately for them they LOST.


I would suggest you read "Hitler's Generals' edited by Corelli Bartlett or "Hitler's Field Marshals' to gain a better insight into the German officer corps. Please write in proper English, thank you.

QUOTE
Of course in the memoirs of the German soldiers and officers they wrote of the many instances of the good relations that existed, between themselves (the conquering heroes) and the vanquished losers, after all a book full of looting, murder, killing and raping would hardly make a best seller, it was a way for them to present themselves in a new light to the people back home, after all they were hardly going to admit to breaking all the normal rules of civilisation were they.


Tell me have you read any memoirs and do you happen to have any specific evidence refuting each claim?

QUOTE
I am sure there were children produced by liaisons with females in occupied countries it would be interesting to know the statistics for children born out of rape inflicted by German soldiers, after all not many rapists were in the habit of putting on a preservative first.


And what about a case when a soldier of the 12. SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend' was put on court martial by Kurt Meyer and sentanced to death and executed by firing squad with the mayor and priest as wittnesses since the soldier raped and killed a Belgian girl? If you look more deeply into this aspect, you will find many other instances.

QUOTE
Most common excuse encountered by the Allied forces as they moved into Germany, fact was unless you were a member of the party, served with the HJ, BDM or the RAD or the Partei you had no chance to do anything or be anybody in the new Reich.


Your statement 'The new Reich' already destroys any sense of seriousness. It's quite humorous, actually. ;)

QUOTE
sad deep disappointment of your dream world being defeated.


The Third Reich isn't my dream world. I'm did not last long. But just because one does not swallow Allied propaganda and dose not hold anything against the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS does not mean one is a Neo-Nazi.

QUOTE
But in all reality could the west have done anything sooner? I don’t think so.


Actually, the main Allied nations, the US and UK, did not suffer millions of deaths. Maybe re-arming the Wehrmacht and attacking the Soviets? Being sarcastic here.

QUOTE
you do not discuss,


I think it's the other way round.

QUOTE
It is part of the mentality of war. But the point of fact is the German military inflicted this on the Russian and Slavic peoples first.


If one day the Scottish had a revolt and marched into England and did pretty much the same thing in retaliation for the deaths of William Wallace and his followers would you feel the same about 'mentality'?

QUOTE
No. I am not a German, and neither are you, not matter how much you wish it was otherwise, I am of English decent and my sympathies would naturally fall towards my Mothers people who bore the brunt of nazi air-raid attacks on their country, and why would I feel so much sympathy for the nation that started the war??

Of course there were German victims, the mentally handicapped and physically handicapped the German doctors were ordered to kill off in order to strengthen the flower of German youth, to weed out the racial impurities, the German Jews, the common German people who protested about Hitler and his bunch of nazi criminals, and who disappeared in the dark of night in the back of a Gestapo car, the members of the opposition political parties who were sent to re-education camps like Dachau, for daring to oppose that Austrian corporal.

And of course my sympathy lies with the millions of people from the various nations of Europe and the world that had to suffer and die while the Third Reich lived the big lie of the Thousand Year Reich. Thankfully Germany will never have the chance to succeed again, all that will remain are little pockets of simpleminded morons, who will be crying into their beer about the good old days, of which 90% of them were never born to know anything about.


I have sympathy for all victims of the war on all sides. Can't say the same applies to you, though. What about the little toddler incinerated in Dresden?

QUOTE
fighting the Yellow Peril


Who is the rascist here again?

QUOTE
The Germans weren’t waiting for the Allies to come and save them, the Allies were busy killing as many of the fanatics as the Red Army were, you make it sound like the were waiting for the Allies to come and fight the Red Army and evil communism. The evil that was Nazi Terror had been in existence from the days before they marched over the Polish Border,


I suggest you read Grossadmiral's Doenitz's announcments after he became Reichspresident.

QUOTE
But the German Navy was already part of the Nazi terror, a few” good deeds” at the end of the war was not enough to whitewash their record.


I haven't heard of any major war crimes of the Kriegsmarine.

QUOTE
As for the rest the names you cite Nazi scum, Hartmann only saved his neck by volunteering his services to the Americans, scum like Wittman only good till his luck ran out in Belgium. All they have in common is that they were losers.


Not mentiong that Harmtann was the highest scorign ace in hsitory with 352 kills, and Wittmann was the highest tank ace in history. False again. He was KIA in Normandy.

QUOTE
These same murderers in the ss only had one god adolf Hitler and he failed them, in their hour of need.


Most Waffen-SS soldiers were innocent, just as most soldiers of any other country were.

I have contained myself in this post. I only hope that you do the same. I'm not a willing participant in a flame war here.

K
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New Connaught Ranger
Posted: September 19, 2006 12:00 pm
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" I know "Helmut von Moltke" (btw, it's Helmuth, with an H at the end) from AHF, where the forum staff (of which I am part of also) decided to ban him following several nonsense posts. He has also been banned from Feldgrau recently, as I understand.

So you knew what he was like and yet you let him join this forum :blink:

And in case there is any misunderstanding, he spelt it like that "Helmut Von Moltke",not NCR, Ignorance is bliss. :D

However, these are not reasons enough to ban him here also, without a flagrant breach of the guidelines.

The reasons he was banned from other forums would be more than a perfectly good reason to impliment a ban here. :roll: people look at and join forums for inteligent discussion not to hear a load of recycled pro nazi propaganda.

Who knows, maybe he will learn something from an argumented discussion.

Can a Leopard change its spots.

After all, putting the fist into the mouth of people who think different was the way of the Nazis and of the Communists and to honor the memory of those who died to eliminate such regimes from the face of the Earth between 1939 and 1989 it is appropriate IMHO to act in a democratic way.

This part of your statement has me lost, I cant understand the connection between fists in mouths and.......???????

Kevin in Deva :D
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