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> PZL P.37 Los in Romanian AF - info needed
Antoniu
Posted: April 02, 2012 05:44 am
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Photo Denes received from Dan Anthony and Razvan Bujor, 80% are registered in the name of Denes, declined to follow the convention.
Incorrect procedure!
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Dénes
Posted: April 07, 2012 10:10 am
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QUOTE (Antoniu @ April 02, 2012 11:44 am)
Photo ... 80% are registered in the name of Denes...

I counted the photos included in the book, showing Rumanian P.37's:
Bernad: 10
Antoniu: 5
Bujor: 4
Tulea: 4
Kopanski: 2
Moisescu: 1
Andrei: 1
No name (asked not to be named): 6
Total: 33 photos.

Of these, photos coming from my collection represent 30%, Antoniu: 15%, Bujor: 12%, Tulea: 12% and so on. So your claim is not valid.

Gen. Dénes
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Antoniu
Posted: April 13, 2012 07:17 am
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Argument not valid!
Percent of the collection are not talking Denes, Photo published with reference to the name Denes, but coming from Antoniu si Bujor, etc.
Method used in the percentage of 82%, alleged fault publisher, false!

sorry for the translation
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Florin
Posted: September 13, 2015 06:15 pm
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From Wikipedia, under title
Polish Air Forces in France and Great Britain

Quote from paragraph History :
"After the joint German-Soviet victory in the Invasion of Poland of 1939, most of the flying personnel and technicians of the Polish Air Force were evacuated to Romania and Hungary . . . . "

I am a bit puzzled for Hungary being mentioned there.
Most non-Romanian English language sources do not mention Hungary as escape route for the Polish refugees. Also in September 1939 the Romanian government's affinity was toward France and Great Britain, while the Hungarian government's affinity was toward Germany.
The fact that myself I am puzzled does not mean much.
So if there is more specific information about Hungary as escape route for the Polish military or civilian refugees, this topic would be a good place to input some words and data.
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Radub
Posted: September 13, 2015 09:37 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ September 13, 2015 06:15 pm)
From Wikipedia, under title
Polish Air Forces in France and Great Britain

Quote from paragraph History :
"After the joint German-Soviet victory in the Invasion of Poland of 1939, most of the flying personnel and technicians of the Polish Air Force were evacuated to Romania and Hungary . . . . "

I am a bit puzzled for Hungary being mentioned there.
Most non-Romanian English language sources do not mention Hungary as escape route for the Polish refugees. Also in September 1939 the Romanian government's affinity was toward France and Great Britain, while the Hungarian government's affinity was toward Germany.
The fact that myself I am puzzled does not mean much.
So if there is more specific information about Hungary as escape route for the Polish military or civilian refugees, this topic would be a good place to input some words and data.

Well, there was little choice. Germany was attacking from the west and the USSR was attacking form the east. The Baltic was at the north. Basically, they chose the countries on the southern border because they were the only countries that did not attack them. By far, Romania was most helpful to Poland and a very large number of personnel and equipment went there. The Polish treasury and government went through Romania too. There is a book about Polish planes in Romania, in Polish, that tracks the fate of a lot of these planes and pilots (as much as it is known), written by Dan Antoniu. I translated it into English and then it was translated from English into Polish. An English version of the book was scheduled and it may be released at some stage in the future.
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Radub
Posted: September 14, 2015 09:01 am
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Sorry, I forgot to post a link to the book: http://mmpbooks.biz/ksiazki/266
The video shows the book contents.
HTH
Radu
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Dénes
Posted: September 14, 2015 05:57 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ September 14, 2015 12:15 am)
I am a bit puzzled for Hungary being mentioned there.

You should not be. Hungarian-Polish friendship and camaraderie is centuries old.

In September 1939, thousands of Polish refugees (military and civilians alike) poured into Hungary, as back then there was a common Polish-Hungarian border. Several aircraft, armour, many trucks, guns, etc. arrived in Hungary as well. Later on, the military and most civilians went further to Western Europe.

German influence on Hungary was not overwhelming as it is generally thought (until the occupation of March 1944).

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Agarici
Posted: September 14, 2015 10:12 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ September 14, 2015 05:57 pm)
QUOTE (Florin @ September 14, 2015 12:15 am)
I am a bit puzzled for Hungary being mentioned there.

You should not be. Hungarian-Polish friendship and camaraderie is centuries old.

In September 1939, thousands of Polish refugees (military and civilians alike) poured into Hungary, as back then there was a common Polish-Hungarian border. Several aircraft, armour, many trucks, guns, etc. arrived in Hungary as well. Later on, the military and most civilians went further to Western Europe.

German influence on Hungary was not overwhelming as it is generally thought (until the occupation of March 1944).

Gen. Dénes

There are many aspects to be discussed, some of them off-topic. There was indeed, even by 1938-1939, an affinity between Poland and Hungary, even if Poland was an important ally of Romania an an increasing opponent of Third Reich Germany. The Romanians even criticzed, at some point, the level of that affinity, for example in 1938 when (both) Hungary and Poland become involved, carving out regions of the new State of Slovakia, and again in March 1939 when Rydz-Smigly and Josef Beck (the Polish foreign affairs minister) welcomed the Hungarian intervention in Carpatho-Ucraine, urging Romania to do the same (which did not happen).

On the other hand, in early September 1939 (I'm quoting from memory), R. V. Bossy, the Romanian ambassador in Hungary, mentions, in his memoirs, being received by either Teleki or Csacki (the Hungarian premier and foreing affairs minister at that time), and both (Bossy and his host) deplored the war and praised the courage and heroism of the Poles.

After the Soviet invasion of Poland (17 september 1939), the word of order for the Poles was to delay (if possible without engaging) the Soviets while the officials, the army and its materiel was supposed to withdraw from what was then called ("the Romanian bridgehead") to Romania. For various reasons, many civilians (but also several thousand military personnel) choosed to seek refuge in neighbouring Hungary. Also some pieces of military hardvare and personal weapons are mention in several sources - thus, some Renault 35 tanks, PZL fighters (and probably some other planes too) and some other AFV (not to mention personal weapons, artillery pieces etc) ended the Polish campaign in Hungary. However, there is no comparison between the ammount of refugee and the magnitude of the operation in their favour in which the two countries (Romania and Hungary) got engaged - Romania, in spite of several severe and vehement protestations of W. Fabricius and other German officials.

As for the German influence in Hungary "not being owewhelming", I have only two things to say:

1. Hungary would probablly not have achieved ANYTHING, from 1938 to 1941, without the German protection/blessing/direct support (in that order), and without the defeat by the Third Reich of its enemies and/or of the rival povers of Hungary in the area (Czechoslovakia, the victory in France, Romania, Jugoslavia). Not only that "the german influence was owewhelming", but from 1938 onwards Hungary (as it was) depended on Germany.

2. Another measure of the German overwhelming influence was the fact that, in spite the amicable support from the USSR towards Hungary (starting al least from 1939) and the good, non-controversial relations between the two countries, Hungary choosed to attack the USSR in 1941. Pherpaps the gesture is the most stupid one done by a (signifcant) German ally on the Eastern Front, rivaling only with the Slovakian intervention...

This post has been edited by Agarici on September 14, 2015 11:18 pm
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Florin
Posted: September 14, 2015 10:45 pm
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QUOTE (Agarici @ September 14, 2015 05:12 pm)
...................
2. Another measure of the German overwhelming influence was the fact that, in spite the amicable support from the USSR towards Hungary (starting al least from 1939) and the good, non-controversial relations between the two countries, Hungary choosed to attack the USSR in 1941. Pherpaps the gesture is the most stupid one done by a (signifcant) German ally on the Eastern Front, rivaling only with the Slovakian intervention...

Trying to be fair, I am reminding here that Denes wrote in another topic that Soviet bombers dumped bombs on some Hungarian towns / cities in June 1941, while Hungary was not yet part of the anti-Soviet conflict, and that triggered a war declaration on behalf of Hungary.

Regarding the "Romanian bridgehead", I am adding some specific numbers regarding the Polish gold and the Polish military personnel:
- the gold of the Polish Republic evacuated through Romania : 65 tons worth $64 million in 1938
- the Polish infantry, motorized troops and air force personnel evacuated through Romania - up to 120,000 people

This post has been edited by Florin on September 14, 2015 10:48 pm
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Agarici
Posted: September 15, 2015 12:41 am
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I don't think that the bombing of Kosice/Kassa was more than a pretext. I understand that, on some Hungarian websites, some say that the bombing was done by the Romanians (to what puropse? I cannot refrain myself asking). Actually, I think it was more of an effort from the "independent" Hungary not to fall out of favor of the Reich, in the situation in which Romania joined the invasion from the beginning, for the (not so unlikely) situation of a re-partition of Transylvania at the end of the war.

This post has been edited by Agarici on September 15, 2015 12:44 am
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Florin
Posted: September 15, 2015 02:20 am
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Some of the memoirs of the Romanian ambassador to Moscow in June 1941 were published in a "Historical Magazine". Considering the information, I think it was published after 1989.
Regarding the very first days of the conflict, when Romania was already deeply involved while Hungary was still neutral, he wrote:

1. He (i.e. the Romanian ambassador) was called in an audience where the Soviet foreign minister asked him an equivalent of: "What did we do to deserve this from you ?" :lol:
2. The Hungarian ambassador informed the Romanian ambassador that he was also called in an audience with the Soviet foreign minister where he was told that Soviet Union will not do anything against Hungary if she will intend to take from Romania the other half of Transylvania.

This post has been edited by Florin on September 15, 2015 02:23 am
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Dénes
Posted: September 15, 2015 05:55 am
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A picture is indeed worth a thousand words (September 1939):
(IMG:http://i61.tinypic.com/el5law.png)

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 15, 2015 05:56 am
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mirekw
Posted: December 23, 2015 03:33 pm
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Photos is well know, this is TKS with nkm 20 mm from 10 Brygada Pancerno-Motorowa płk Maczek in Hungary second part of IX 1939 (18-20 IX 39 ?), printed in Poland around 1996 or 1995 in article about Polish TKS with nkm 20 mm by Leszek Kumuda (magazine Militaia, Mariusz Zimny Paweł Sembrant) , later it was reproduced several times in Poland too.

Nothing special...

regards,
mw
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Florin
Posted: December 24, 2015 01:52 am
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QUOTE (mirekw @ December 23, 2015 10:33 am)
Photos is well know, this is TKS with nkm 20 mm from 10 Brygada Pancerno-Motorowa płk Maczek in Hungary second part of IX 1939 (18-20 IX 39 ?), printed in Poland around 1996 or 1995 in article about Polish TKS with nkm 20 mm by Leszek Kumuda (magazine Militaia, Mariusz Zimny Paweł Sembrant) , later it was reproduced several times in Poland too.

Nothing special...

regards,
mw

"mirekw", you missed the idea (no offense intended ).
The point in posting this photo is not that if it is well known, or less known.
Maybe it is "Nothing special" as source of information, but just try to guess why it is shown.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 24, 2015 01:52 am
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mirekw
Posted: December 25, 2015 01:07 pm
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This is not any offece the poin ti sthat when you giving a picture witout any data is is total nonsens, empty.

There are two soldiers a Polish and Hungarian, such called brathers in arms between to nations, and the intersting things is behind a TKS with 20 mm cannon inż. Jurka, there were about 20-30 such modified TKS in 1939, if I am right there were 3 such vehicele in 10 Brygada Pancerno-Motorowa plk Maczek.

Some of guys who see it to not know even who and what is on it?

So empty speculation, more put it in a section of ARR, maybe the Hungarian soldiers is someone important later for Rumanian in ARR?

regards,
mw

PS I see this picture as a Pole and see it as value for as.
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