Romanian contribution to the shortening of the war

[Florin]

QUOTE

QUOTE QUOTE 2, under Communism, in Hungary it was strictly forbidden to talk about Transylvania and generally the Hungarian ethnics abroad. Let alone revisionist attitude. Something similar to Communist Rumania and the \"hot\" topic of Bessarabia. Well, a book as "History of Transylvania", also translated in English and distributed in West, was published in the 80's. Yes, indeed. But what makes you think that series of books advocates current revisionism? The book is dealing with the history of Transylvania. Dénes

Well, the Romanians were annoyed by many paragraphs in that book. They were annoyed enough to publish in the Romanian newspapers, as top headlines on the front page, answers and arguments against some parts of that book. And that was in the 80's, when both Hungary and Romania were Communist states, both were in the Warsaw Pact, both were in CAER.

Florin

[Bernard Miclescu]

[quote="Dénes"]
Not good, as it has double meaning, i.e. "cel cu casca", or "om cascat"...

I used this "moniker" just for amusement Sometemes it was, it is, and it will be like this.

BM

[dead-cat]

[quote]
By the way, that part of Eastern Prussia was not a part of Germany, as it was after WWI, but before September 1939.
[/quote]

http://www.mapsarchives.com/cgi-bin/bv.pl?...ost=1975.150000

the border of that province shifted only marginally. for example the village of Soldau (place of the battle of Tannenberg) belonged to Poland 1939. the old imperial border was around 10km south in 1914.
so yes, Eastern Prussia was invaded in WW1 and the region i'm talking about still belonged to Germany 1939.

[quote]
What about the 1.5 million Armenians (men, women, children) killed in the Ottoman Empire?
[/quote]

you are correct. however, i was talking about Europe. somehow i doubt the turks wouldn't have massacred the armenians if it wasn't for WW1.


[quote]
REALLY?... You should try to explain this to my grandmother. At age 5, she saw her brother, 4 years old, dying, and her baby-sister dying.
They were forced to leave her native village in the middle of winter, during freezing temperatures, because the Germans transformed that village into a prisoner camp.
Almost everything hidden in the ground by the villagers was discovered and looted by the POW's.
[/quote]

while your grandmothers experience is sad, it's not representative numberwise. if you search long enough, you'll find reports of ppl being tortured shot etc during WW1. but their number was not comparable to WW2.

[quote]
What about the Serbians killed in the occupied Serbia?
[/quote]

there wern't that many. most of them died during the attack on Belgrade in fall 1915 (i read about something like 5000 civilian casualties). the larger number probably starved, but their situation was little diffrent from the rest of the population of the central powers who starved as well. besides, Serbia was overrun in about 2 months.

[quote]
So 3 quarters of the Romanian territory, as it was before August 1916, "enjoyed" the "next to the front" status.
[/quote]

then please give examples of cities razed to the ground by artillery or aerial bombings. there won't be many. once the front passed (and the war in RO wasn't a stalemate as it was in France) there was no more combat action.

[inahurry]

No revizionists in Hungary today ?!? Really!

Why bother though when one has them here. The present has such an ironic way to bring people back to reality: aren't some "hot heads", "rogue" elements etc. from the UDMR (Hungarian minority party in Romania) organizing elections for an autonomist, non-fictional although quite surrealist, "Tinut al secuilor" exactly these days ? Are they excluded from the party that half-heartedly admits they are extremists? No way. This is the PRESENT. The same with the insulting, for Romanians, monument in Arad. And now the sinister farce of the so-called referundum that was extended to 2 days, maybe-maybe with all the unlawful propaganda enough people will be convinced to go to vote so the last UDMR-PSD pact is fulfilled. This is "democracy" at work, exactly the same kind as the "history" according to some who really misinterpret Romanian patience with eternal gullibility. Don't count on it.

[inahurry]

Someone seems to believe all arguments contradicting his views and/or, most often 'and' than 'or', Hungarian propaganda are, I quote him, "ridiculuos". He fakes then he is surprised when someone, who didn't find his uncalled for characterizations too amusing, answers back. Always very rigid when his image seems threatened (see the "but he has no hat" as in the bear, the wolf and the rabbit joke like accusation about a minor typing mistake). There is obviously no point in hoping the biblical "the straw in others eye vs the beam in his own eyes" could ever apply to him. All the more when this follows a topic where the discussion was centered on labels or "labels". He has the right to call for strictly objective, even politically correct, descriptions when Hungary is concerned, yet, when the targets of Hungarian propaganda effort dare to point out all is not so rosy-dory and Horthy did have something to do with Hungary, Hungarian army, well, even with certain episodes Romanian won't forget too soon then the same rules he demands to be followed by others suddenly don't apply for himself. The point of this post ? Regarding a certain person, none. Regarding the way Hungarian propaganda operates, a lot. And, because I sometimes have to live up to my nickname, I hurry to say all types of propaganda operate the same.

[tempesta]

inahurry wrote:

QUOTE

No revizionists in Hungary today ?!? Really!   Why bother though when one has them here. The present has such an ironic way to bring people back to reality: aren't some \"hot heads\", \"rogue\" elements etc. from the UDMR (Hungarian minority party in Romania) organizing elections for an autonomist, non-fictional although quite surrealist, \"Tinut al secuilor\" exactly these days ? Are they excluded from the party that half-heartedly admits they are extremists? No way.

UDMR is, technically, a romanian party, so UDMR "revisionism" is not the oficiall policy of Hungary.
The "hot heads" deserve to be excluded from UDMR!. With these stupid elections they actually hurt UDMR's afforts to obtain "collective rigths" (whatever these mean :roll: ) for the Hungarian minority by insulting the Romanian population and enraging the Romanians against the Hungarian minority. And I really don't know what good could brig an "Tinut al secuilor" to the people living in it.
But this is pollitical sfuff, and here we discuss history, not politics. I think history is too often mixed with politics and propanagda.

[Victor]

The topic will be closed if the discussion continues off topic and with personal attacks.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

With these stupid elections they actually hurt UDMR's afforts to obtain \"collective rigths\" for the Hungarian minority by insulting the Romanian population and enraging the Romanians against the Hungarian minority.

For the benefit of better comprehension I offer hereby a translation intended for visitors from far away countries less used to the complexities of local customs :

"Exercising their democratic rights, they actually hurt UDMR's efforts to obtain Rumanian rights for the Rumanian population of Hungarian origin by insulting the Rumanian population (presumably from other origin, phanariot for example) and enraging those Rumanians against the (Hungarian) Rumanians. "

No thanks.

And now something actually on topic (before Victor close the folder and everybody says it's my fault) :

I don't understand the topic title. "Contribution to shortening war" . When was that ever an objective ? Why not "contribution to lengthening the war" ?

[dragos]

QUOTE

And now something actually on topic (before Victor close the folder and everybody says it's my fault) : I don't understand the topic title. \"Contribution to shortening war\" . When was that ever an objective ? Why not \"contribution to lengthening the war\" ?

It's contribution to shortening the war because it is about the period Romania fought against Germany.

I urge Victor to start a real moderation of this forum. Instead closing otherwise interesting topics, we should give penalties to those who made a habit in going off-topic.

[Najroda]

[quote]No revizionists in Hungary today ?!? Really!

Why bother though when one has them here. The present has such an ironic way to bring people back to reality: aren't some "hot heads", "rogue" elements etc. from the UDMR (Hungarian minority party in Romania) organizing elections for an autonomist, non-fictional although quite surrealist, "Tinut al secuilor" exactly these days ?[/quote]

No. the DAHR did not hold such elections. You are misinformed.

(DAHR is the appropriate abbreviation on an English language forum, not UDHR or RMDSZ)

[quote] Are they excluded from the party that half-heartedly admits they are extremists?[/quote]

1) Since they are not DAHR members they cannot be banned.
2) DAHR did not say they are extremists. They are unhappy with a division within the Transylvanian Hungarian community, in light of the 5% electoral treshold.

[quote]No way. This is the PRESENT. The same with the insulting, for Romanians, monument in Arad.[/quote]

Why insulting? Elaborate.

Why would Romanians be insulted by a Hungarian statue and the Transylvanian Hungarian not be insulted by the hundreds of Romanian statues all over Transylvania, including towns with a Hungarian majority.

BTW, the Arad town council, in which DAHR has no majority, had agreed to re-erecting this statue that was removed in 1925.

[quote]And now the sinister farce of the so-called referundum that was extended to 2 days, maybe-maybe with all the unlawful propaganda enough people will be convinced to go to vote so the last UDMR-PSD pact is fulfilled. This is "democracy" at work, exactly the same kind as the "history" according to some who really misinterpret Romanian patience with eternal gullibility. Don't count on it. [/quote]

I don't see why a referendum lasting for 2 days (shame! shame!) would be undemocratic...[/quote]

[Najroda]

[quote]UDMR is, technically, a romanian party, so UDMR "revisionism" is not the oficiall policy of Hungary.[/quote]

How is the DAHR being revisionist? Can I have the relevant excerpts from their party program or quotes of their politicians?

[quote]The "hot heads" deserve to be excluded from UDMR!.[/quote]

They are, see bishop Tõkés.

[quote]With these stupid elections they actually hurt UDMR's afforts to obtain "collective rigths" (whatever these mean :roll: )[/quote]

Check the European charter fro minority rights if you don't know what it means. To give you a hint: it corresponds with what the Transylvanian Romanians desired (but never got) pre-1918.

[quote]for the Hungarian minority by insulting the Romanian population and enraging the Romanians against the Hungarian minority.[/quote]

Can I ask for examples of these "insults"?

[quote]And I really don't know what good could brig an "Tinut al secuilor" to the people living in it.[/quote]

What about stopping the ongoing assimilation and emigration of the Transylvanian Hungarians (dropped by almost 200.000 between the last 2 censuses). You also might also want to consult the recommendation by the Council of Europe called "Positive experiences of autonomous regions as a source of inspiration for conflict resolution in Europe"

Summary:

Most present-day conflicts no longer occur between states but within states and are rooted in tensions between states and minority groups whichdemand the right to preserve their identities. These tensions are partly due to the territorial changes and the emergence of new states which followed the two world wars and the collapse of the old communist system, and also reflect the inevitable development of the concept of the nation-state, which, hitherto, viewed national sovereignty and cultural homogeneity as essential.

Autonomy as applied in states governed by the rule of law can be a source of inspiration inseeking ways to resolve internal political conflicts. Autonomy allows a group which is a minority within a state to exercise its rights, while providing certain guarantees of the state’s unity, sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Autonomous status may be applied to various systems of political organisation and means that autonomous entities are given specific powers, either devolved or shared with central government, while remaining under the latter’s authority.

In order to provide the right conditions for the permanence of autonomy, the report recommends compliance with a number of basic principles, including the creation of a legal framework for autonomous status, a clear division of powers and the establishment of democratically elected legislative and executive bodies in autonomous regions."

[quote]But this is pollitical sfuff, and here we discuss history, not politics. I think history is too often mixed with politics and propanagda.[/quote]

OK, but I felt I had to clear up some misconceptions. I feel a lot of unfounded anti-Hungarian sentiments on this board, and it is only in your own best interest to come to terms with it.

[dragos]

I understand your intention, but stop posting off-topic. You posted right after two warnings.

[Najroda]

[quote]I understand your intention, but stop posting off-topic. You posted right after two warnings.[/quote]

I apologize. I will, and I trust those that I addressed will stop posting nationalistically biassed and plain incorrect "information". If anyone wants to respond to my posts, please do so in the general forum, I will try to keep an eye on it.

Otherwise, congratulations, you have an excellent board, very informative, sometimes entertaining, and the overall majority of the posters here are of a quality that most internet forums can only dream of these days. I hope I will find some time to read further into it.

[dragos]

The German war production minister, Albert Speer, said about the consequences of the Romanian volte-face of 23 August 1944:
"Beginning with June 1944, we could supply 50,000 tons of petrol per month, but from August 1944, when our troops had to leave Romania, the quantity dropped to 20,000 tons. It was clear that we were heading to disaster. This was the cause of defeat. Not because of the strategic bombings of British and American air forces (...), but because of the loss, after 23 August 1944, of our supply sources from Romania (...). It is undeniable that the day of 23 August 1944 was the turning point of the war production, therefor of the war itself."

[dragos]

This is based on a statement in the yesterday show on OTV. In the balance of the post war negociations, Romania was refuted the contribution for shortening the war with 200 days, as having lengthening the war much more in the previous three years. But someone stated (sorry, I can't remember the name) that the shortening of the war with 200 days in the end was much more important, because the Americans were initially preparing the A-bombs for Germany, and if the war in Europe was a little longer, Germany would have been the test grounds for the Atomic bombs, thus turning the center of Europe into a nuclear wasteland with the horrendous consequences in the years to follow.