Pics of downed allied fighters over romania...

And below the "original scans" of P-38 nr 32 color profile. Source Aeromagazin

I think I may have just found my next USAAF skinning project...

BTW Denes, I'm assuming you'd know being the expert, but is it possible that that photo was originally taken from Bazu's logbook or a diary and thats where they got the s/n information? My guess would be that or just detective work based on where the wreck was and any P-51Bs that went down in that area that day to a2a combat.

Would be hard to even tell the unit from that little bit left over. Without that wing stripe it could be any group in the 15th AAF, or even the 4th FG of the 8th AAF.

SELF EDIT- I almost forgot, its possible that they got the s/n off the bits left over, as ground crews (at least in the 8th, not sure about the 15th) would frequently stenclin a planes s/n on the removable portions of the engine cowling to keep them from getting mixed up when they were being serviced or painted in the hangars.

All your suppositions might be valid. However, I just realised that I don't have any real proof that this particular photo actually shows the wreck of Lt. Mumford's mount. I took the info as granted, without any proof.

Gen. Dénes

It's very simple Denes. Why do you have to take the hard way all the time.

How many P-51 Mustangs did Bazu shot down ? Do you think Bazu ( a proud man)would make a picture standing near a Mustang shot by others ?
Did you bother to read the circumstances of the Mustang shot down by him near Vardita Tighina on 6 june '44. The plane had a force landing ( in the picture the engine is intact so no crash in to the ground) and the pilot had some time to leave the plane before exploding ( possible blow up by the pilot, US pilots do that many times).
The story of how was that picture taken is in the book "Bazu Cantacuzino-Printul Asilor de Tudor Vasile ( page 148) and is based from archivs reserch with also Bazu after combat report.
Bazu flown toghether with Lt av Ion Petrescu (Fiesler pilot) and photographer cap.Petre Stere from SMP ( Propaganda military service-wich the picture belongs) with a Fiesler to the place of crash. They found the P-51 still burning, and local people tell them that pilot was seen leaving to the est ( no doubt to american airfield in USSR from wich 325th FG took off that day).
Because they were two Mustangs shot down (by 9th FG pilots) near Galati on 6 june'44, the question is why is this Mumford plane and not Mc Donald P-51 ( the second one).

The answer is quite simple. Mc Donald was bailed out with parachute (and taken POW) and his plane must free fallen from 7000m altitude and buried (with all his engine) in to the ground near Traianu vilage (Ismail county).

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 31, 2007 12:47 am

Thanks C-no, but you didn't write anything new. Logic doesn't always lead to the (historical) truth. Hard facts do.

What I was hoping for is the actual SMP photo, with the date on the verso, or a crash report, with the aircraft's serial number mentioned, or the pilot's personal artifact (his helmet, grabbed by Bâzu as trophy) found on site.

By the way, Lt. Mumford's fate is still unknown. The search to find his grave is currently going on...

Gen. Dénes

It was not necessary to write news.

A special request from you I will find that picture and I will write myself on the back the serial number of Mumford P-51 and I will take all the responsability signing with my name.

The truth is not allways simple to find. You have pictures, archivs documents, you have combat reports you have pilots diaries. The only hard work is to put toghether. That why you need history reserchers otherwise a simple librarian (who can look on the back of the pictures) could write the history.

Is another confirmation that P-51 from the picture was Mumford plane. All local people witnessed that pilot leave the plane and run to the est. His missing was possible due to many reasons: killed by thiefs ( in forest ) or killed by russians mistaken with a spy . It's difficult to find his grave because nobody knows how far he walks to escape.

On the other hand for the same day we have the confirmation that second P-51 pilot Donald Mc Donald bailed out and was taken POW near Galati. In his after combat report it's not mentioned that he leave his plane walking by foot.
And speaking of pilots helmets. In the aviation Museum at Pipera they have an american fighter pilot helmet found at one guy from Galati who said it is from american pilot POW in Galati summer '44 ( I suspected it is Mc Donald's helmet )

I want to add that no other american plane ( fighters or bombers) were lost in the area on 6 june '44. The fight was between 9FG with B-17 and P-51 escort from 325FG ( first shutlle)

Only two 325FG Mustangs were lost in the area ( confirmation from US archivs).
In romanian archivs you will find two american planes found on romanian soil on 6' june '44 near Galati.
One at Vardita Tighina ( claimed by Bazu ) and another one at Traianu ( no claim but possible shot down by Adj.Miron)

But to find the truth as Denes mentioned we need to check the back of pictures of the two P-51 wrecks. Until than we have to wait

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 31, 2007 09:41 am

Here I agree with you 100%.

Too often, historians, mainly amateur ones, are limiting themselves to listing data and facts without giving any explanations, or the larger context, as well as drawing the conclusions: who was better, who was worse, or which aircraft or tactics was better and which one less perfect. This approach is well illustrated in most aviation books published in Rumania. For example, the topic of overclaiming by Rumanian pilots is still a tabu for Rumanian aviation historians...

Is another confirmation that P-51 from the picture was Mumford plane. All local people witnessed that pilot leave the plane and run to the est. His missing was possible due to many reasons: killed by thiefs ( in forest ) or killed by russians mistaken with a spy . It's difficult to find his grave because nobody knows how far he walks to escape.

You're right, again. However, it's possible that he reached Soviet lines and ended up in one of the concentration camps. In this case, there are chances to find a trace of Lt. Mumford's fate in Soviet archives.

That's what I was actually hoping for.

Gen. Dénes

I hate to say it, but its also entirely possible (evem probable) his grave will never be found, as the Russians didn't record the locations of people they shot and buried for the most part. Although the numbers were far less for the Allies than the Germans, they were just as notorious for having "friendly" airman and escaped POWs disappear into their areas of control never to be heard from again as they were with the Germans. But I'm sure people who grew up in a Soviet satellite state are far more familiar with that than I am here in the US. We just read about it, you lived it.

I still think thats the real reason your government arranged for the transfer of all those USAAF POWs- it wasn't primarily about the Germans, they knew full well what would happen if the Russians got hold of them.

Most Americans have forgotten those chapters of WWII history, but those of us who remember will always be grateful that SOMEONE did the right thing.

Hi Treize,

You are right, the main reason for US POW transfer was the menace of Soviets advancing troops to Bucharest. It is know what they did on romanian teritory ( many rapes, shooting of civilians by drunken soviet soldiers etc.)
One of the " SOMEONE did right thing " was Bazu Cantacuzino who took the message ( from royal family for POW transfer ) to 15thAF command in Italy flying with col James Gun III in a BF 109.

Unfortunetly Mumford was not aware that pilot who shoot him down was a romanian prince and would had a wellcome treatment as a POW ( like all americans POW in Romania) instead choose to escape to unknown future towards soviet lines.
Bazu made all was possible not to kill him in the air. He wanted to fly a Mustang and ofcourse needed the pilot alive to land the plane safely.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 31, 2007 01:32 pm

The "SOMEONE" was more of an "its about time someone did" than saying I didn't know who. I know Bazu flew to Foggia with Lt. Col. Gunn crammed into the fuselage of his Gustav, unfortunately its a story not very well known here in the States, even among avid aviation enthusiasts.

I keep suggesting it to the programmers at the History Channel, but so far I have never gotten a response. I'm also trying to convine the producers of the "Dogfights" series to do an episode on the ARR before there are no surviving Vanatoare to talk to for it.

A big part of his not knowing he would be well treated was probably that the USAAF never told its pilots that the Romanians kept their POWs seperate from the Germans and would treat them much better than if they had gone down over, say, Austria. Perhaps they were afraid of more situations like the pilots and crews who were accused of landing in Switzerland and Denmark in order to get out flying combat and sit out the war in relative luxury, I don't know for sure.

I have even seen reference to the fact that US Intelligence was unaware that the smaller Axis nations, like Romania, Hungary and Craoatia operated their own air forces semi-autonomous fron the Luftwaffe. They do seem to have dropped the ball all the way through the war in identifying the IAR-80/81 as a completely different aircraft from the FW-190...

This post has been edited by Treize on May 31, 2007 02:51 pm