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> Romanian subs activity
crolick
Posted: December 13, 2005 08:59 pm
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This is my 1st post here, so I would like to say hello to all! :)

I have some questions regarding the activity of Romanian submarines.

(1) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=249 on 9.IX.1941 Delfinul sighted and attacked with torpedos Soviet cruiser Komintern. Can I ask for some more details like: number of fired torpedos, range to the target or position of the attack?!

(2) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=250 on 29.IV.1944 Rechinul sighted near Batumi 2 Soviet cruisers. Then the question is - what was the identity of both units?! Maybe our Russian friends can help us here?!

(3) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=249 on 27.VI.1942 Delfinul received 240 DC and on 1.VII.1942 another 328. For me, the numbers seems way to high, hence the question arise what was the real number of dropped DC [again maybe our Russian friends will be able to give us the precise info?!]

(4) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=251 on 11.V.1944 Marsuinul received 420 DC from Croatian KFK. Again the number of DC in my opinion is too high. The second problem is with Croatian KFK. As far as I know UJ 301-310 and UJ 312-318 were only manned by Croation [therefor they were not 'officialy' Croatian - but here I may be wrong] but again in March 1944 ships were again manned by Germans and Croatians crews were sent to Adria. Anyone can clarify this!?

Best wishes from Warsaw,
crolick
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sid guttridge
Posted: December 14, 2005 11:59 am
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Hi Crolick,

The British annual publication "Warship" carried an article on all Romanian submarine operations about ten years ago. It was by Cristian Craciunoiu. This should answer your questions.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Victor
Posted: December 14, 2005 01:58 pm
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Welcome to the forum, crolick.

The articles were written a couple of years ago. Back then, the only source at hand regarding the operations of Delfinul was Dorin Mara, Marina regala a Romaniei in cel de-al doilea razboi mondial, Editura Economica, 2000. Not a very good book, but that is all I had at my disposal. This summer I have finally acquired the first volume of Nicolae Koslinki and Raymond Stanescu's Marina Romana in al II-lea razboi mondial, Editura Fat-Frumos, 1996, which deals with the 1941 events. Their work comprising of 3 volumes is probably the best source on the Romanian Navy in WW2 in existance. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to read it yet and make corrections on the site, where needed.

(1) That is what it said in Dorin Mara's book. Koslinski & Stanescu don't mention any attack. Just that the NMS Delfinul saw an cruiser it identified as the Komintern.

(3) The numbers are double checked by Koslinski & Stanescu, with the mention that this is the number of explosions counted onboard the sub. There weren't all DCs probably, as they were also attacked by aircraft.

(4) The figure is again double-checked in the second volume of Koslinski & Stanescu. 420 explosions were counted. They say that the KFKs were manned by Croatian crews and operated from the Bulgarian coast
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dragos03
Posted: December 14, 2005 10:08 pm
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Answer to (2): according to the Koslinski & Stanescu book, Rechinul didn't actually sight the two Soviet cruisers. It was announced by the headquarters that the cruisers might be in the area but didn't encounter them.
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crolick
Posted: December 14, 2005 10:28 pm
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Hello all!

sid - thnx for the tip. I'm aware of the existance of this article but still have no luck on finding it. Though my friend promised me that he will send me this article shortly. I hope he will keep his promise ;)

dragos03 - thank you. This explains the question :)

Victor -
(1) Yes this clear things out
(3), (4) About DCs. I agree that Romanians could count i.e. 420 DCs but I just buy the story as true. Typical BMO was carrying 16 DCs, OD 200 - 24 small DCs [or 16 big ones], destroyer of project 7 had 54 DCs onboard. My point is that the numbers from the Russian side just do not add...

Another interesting discrepancies:
a/ Marsuinul
1) In the begining of the patrol at 6:30 boat was attacked by German plane and MG by it. What is the exact date - 11 or 12 May 1944?!
2) Are you sure that on 20 May 1944 Marsuinul evaded 3 torpedos fired by Soviet sub?! To my knowledge none of them reported such an attack.
3) On one day sub recieved 82 DCs from Soviet planes. Was it on 22 or 23 May 1944?! Or maybe both?!

b/ Rechinul
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 August 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 August 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 August 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!

c/ Delfinul
1) Regarding Komintern I found that it was sighted 5 Nm off Orczanok Cape. Can our Russian friends confirm that it was in fact Komintern and not another vessel!?
2) Sub left the base for her 4th patrol on 2 September 1941 or 3 September 1941!?
3) After unsuccessful attack on Ostrovskij Delfinul was haunted by surface Soviet units. How many DCs were dropped 90 or 809?!
4) Sub left the base for her 5th patrol on 2 November 1941 or 3 November 1941!?
5) Sub left the base for her 8th patrol on 8 May 1942 or 18 May 1942!?
6) On 1 July 1942 sub was hanuted for many hours. How many DCs were dropped 268 or 328?!

Of course all questions regarding DCs are asking for the Romanian numbers of counted dropped DCs.

Lot of questions, but subject is very interesting and worth of a time to dig it!

Best wishes,
crolick
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Victor
Posted: December 17, 2005 09:32 am
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QUOTE

Another interesting discrepancies:
a/ Marsuinul
1) In the begining of the patrol at 6:30 boat was attacked by German plane and MG by it. What is the exact date - 11 or 12 May 1944?!
2) Are you sure that on 20 May 1944 Marsuinul evaded 3 torpedos fired by Soviet sub?! To my knowledge none of them reported such an attack.
3) On one day sub recieved 82 DCs from Soviet planes. Was it on 22 or 23 May 1944?! Or maybe both?!


1). It was on 11 May. The German seaplane dropped 4 bombs.

2). The crew reported to have seen torpedo wakes during the night. They probably assumed it was a Soviet sub.

3). On 22 May, between 0445 and 0825 they were pursued by submarine hunters 45 miles WNW of Batumi. 82 explosions were counted, of which 74 in the vicinity.

QUOTE

b/ Rechinul
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 August 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 August 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 August 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!


1). As far as I know, the sub ended his second patrol on 29 July and didn't leave the port again.

2). See above

QUOTE
c/ Delfinul
1) Regarding Komintern I found that it was sighted 5 Nm off Orczanok Cape. Can our Russian friends confirm that it was in fact Komintern and not another vessel!?
2) Sub left the base for her 4th patrol on 2 September 1941 or 3 September 1941!?
3) After unsuccessful attack on Ostrovskij Delfinul was haunted by surface Soviet units. How many DCs were dropped 90 or 809?!
4) Sub left the base for her 5th patrol on 2 November 1941 or 3 November 1941!?
5) Sub left the base for her 8th patrol on 8 May 1942 or 18 May 1942!?
6) On 1 July 1942 sub was hanuted for many hours. How many DCs were dropped 268 or 328?!


2). 3 September

3). The first submarine hunters appeared at 0946 and until 1840 they made 23 attacks, launching between 80 and 90 depth charges.

4). It left in the evening of 2 November

5). I have found both versions., but I tend to believe the 18 May variant.

6). Between 0725 and 0800, it was spotted by the VVS-ChF patrols and 12 bombs were dropped. Then, between 0800 and 1030 hours, 95 bombs fell down around it. Around 1300 hours another 20 and around 1540 around 24. In the evening, between 1920 and 2000 hours, 82 fell nearby and 35 farther away. If we add them we obtain a total of 268.
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crolick
Posted: December 17, 2005 01:21 pm
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Hello Victor!

Many thanks on your answer, working with you is a pleasure B)

Of course I have made a stupid mistake about Rechinul. The correct version should be:
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 July 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 July 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 July 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!

Though I have find another discrepancies regarding Marsuinul:
1) Sub left the base for her patrol on 10 or 11 May 1944!?
2) Sub was attacked by German R-boot [any chance fro identyfing the R-bot number?!] by accident on 10 or 12 May 1944?!

And another 2 questions:
- Is there any source which gives the number of agreggate DCs dropped on Romanian subs?!
- On some pictures of Romanians subs I have noticed some emblem on their coning tower. What is it?!. Were all boats carring this emblem during their service?!

Greeting from Warsaw,
crolick
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Carol I
Posted: December 17, 2005 07:03 pm
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QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 02:21 PM)
- On some pictures of Romanians subs I have noticed some emblem on their coning tower. What is it?!. Were all boats carring this emblem during their service?!

Could you please post an image of the emblem? It could have been the Romanian coat-of-arms in use at that time.
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crolick
Posted: December 17, 2005 08:30 pm
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QUOTE (Carol I @ Dec 17 2005, 07:03 PM)
Could you please post an image of the emblem? It could have been the Romanian coat-of-arms in use at that time.

Hello Carol I

here you go:
(IMG:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/449/emblem19eo.th.jpg)

(IMG:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3460/emblem25az.th.jpg)

(IMG:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9783/emblem33jd.jpg)

Indeed this is an eagle [like in Romanian coat-of-arms] but the drawing inside doesn't look like that one in Romanian coat-of-arms :unsure:

Cheers,
crolick

Edit: Sorry didn't know that I have to put source :ph34r:
Axworthy & Craciunoiu - Romanian Submarine Operations in the Second World War

This post has been edited by crolick on December 18, 2005 07:15 pm
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Carol I
Posted: December 17, 2005 08:33 pm
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QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 09:30 PM)
(IMG:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9783/emblem33jd.jpg)

Indeed this is an eagle [like in Romanian coat-of-arms] but the drawing inside doesn't look like that one in Romanian coat-of-arms :unsure:

Thanks Crolick. This is indeed the eagle in the Romanian coat-of-arms.
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Carol I
Posted: December 17, 2005 08:39 pm
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Carol I
Posted: December 17, 2005 08:50 pm
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QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 09:30 PM)
(IMG:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/449/emblem19eo.th.jpg)

(IMG:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9783/emblem33jd.jpg)

It appears that both these images are reversed. As seen in the reference image of the Romanian coat-of-arms, the Wallachian eagle should be in the first quarter, not in the second.
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crolick
Posted: December 17, 2005 10:03 pm
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QUOTE (Carol I @ Dec 17 2005, 08:50 PM)
It appears that both these images are reversed. As seen in the reference image of the Romanian coat-of-arms, the Wallachian eagle should be in the first quarter, not in the second.

Yes, you are quite right Carol I!
I haven't noticed that - thank you :)
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Carol I
Posted: December 18, 2005 10:16 am
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QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 11:03 PM)
QUOTE (Carol I @ Dec 17 2005, 08:50 PM)
It appears that both these images are reversed. As seen in the reference image of the Romanian coat-of-arms, the Wallachian eagle should be in the first quarter, not in the second.

Yes, you are quite right Carol I!
I haven't noticed that - thank you :)
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Victor
Posted: December 18, 2005 01:34 pm
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QUOTE ("crolick")
The correct version should be:
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 July 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 July 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 July 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!


1). Actually, both may be right. On 5 July 1944 it was hunted for between 0135 and 0730 hours in the area near the Idokopass Cape. On 18 July Rechinul returned to the same area. They reported tha tthey heard DC explosions farther away, but the ship wasn't in danger.

2). 43, out of which 21 in the vicinity of the sub

QUOTE ("crolick")
Though I have find another discrepancies regarding Marsuinul:
1) Sub left the base for her patrol on 10 or 11 May 1944!?
2) Sub was attacked by German R-boot [any chance fro identyfing the R-bot number?!] by accident on 10 or 12 May 1944?!


1). 10 May. It left Constanta in the morning, but only in the afternoon it passed the mine barrage.
2). 11 May. It started at 0830 hours and there were probably more than one ships, because it lasted until the evening.

From what I read there isn't an aggregate number of DCs calculated.
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