Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (2) [1] 2   ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> The attack of Delfinul
Victor
Posted: October 10, 2005 06:40 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



As we all know the NMS Delfinul submarine made an attack on a Soviet ship on 5 November 1941, Southeast of Yalta. The original victim was thought to be the cargo ship Uralles, but it was apparently sunk by Luftwaffe aircraft at Yevpatoria on 29 October. Another version was the motor-tank Kreml, which was damaged, but this was apparently torpedoed by the U-24 in 1943.

Recentlly I have come across some information about the icebreaker Stepan Makarov taht went missing in November 1941 en route to Sevastopol from the Caucasus.

Can anyone shed more light on the events on 5 November?
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
sid guttridge
Posted: October 11, 2005 05:45 am
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 862
Member No.: 591
Joined: May 19, 2005



Hi Victor,

Where does the new information about the loss of the Uralets come from?

Forgive my enquiry, but we seem to live in an age of compulsive revisionism and conspiracy theory. Look at the unlikely proposition that the Moskva was sunk by mistake by a Soviet submarine, even though she was in a minefield and under fire from both shore batteries and warships at the time.

Have you any details on the Stepan Makarov? Does she look like a merchant ship generally or Uralets in particular?

Did Delfinul claim Uralets specifically, or just an undetermined merchant vessel?

If the latter, when was Uralets attributed to Delfinul and by whom?

Cheers,

Sid

P.S. I will be away for a week, so I will not immediately be able to acknowledge any reply.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Andrey
Posted: October 11, 2005 08:25 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 13
Member No.: 399
Joined: November 25, 2004



Hello, Viktor!

“Uralles” really sank in Eupatoria during German air raid in Oct.1941.
Icebreaker “Stepan Makarov” left Tuapse on 17.11.41 and sank on minefield off Sevastopol next day with all crew.
No info about “Kreml” damage on 5.11.41. This ship left Sevastopol for Tuapse on 11.11.41
No any info on 5.11.41 about submarine attacks or so.
Nearest ship what might be object of “Delfinul” attack was minelayer (ex-cargo/passenger motorship) “Ostrovsky” – arrived Sevastopol 10:39 (Moscow Time) 5.11.43. But according to Rohwer “Delfinul” attack was on 08:45 (10:45 Moscow Time?).

It seems that unknown ship was attacked unsuccessfully and she don’t observe the attack.

Do you have a content of Costachescu attack report? Maybe details help to resolve this enigma.

Regards,
Andrey
PMEmail Poster
Top
Andrey
Posted: October 11, 2005 08:27 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 13
Member No.: 399
Joined: November 25, 2004



Sorry, “Ostrovsky” arrived Sevastopol on 5.11.1941, not 1943
PMEmail Poster
Top
Victor
Posted: October 13, 2005 07:15 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



I have found two different reports of the events. One is presented in the article on the website:

On 5 November, at 0818, it spotted SE of Yalta a large ship escorted by a gunboat and a submarine hunter. Delfinul started to maneuver for the attack and at 0844 it managed to get into a favourable position and fired its torpedoes and sank the target. The ship was attacked by submarine hunters. About 90 depth charges were launched against the Romanian submarine during the 10 hours of the chase. Finally, at 1840 it managed to lose them and sail home.

The other one:

On 5 November, at 0805 hours, the submarine spotted a transport sailing on an approximate course of 290 degrees towards Yalta. Costachescu passed by the ship's stern and at 0843 fired one torpedo from the aft-tube no. 6. The explosion of the torpedo was followed by the explosion of something inside the ship (maybe munitions or a steam engine) and teh ship sank, still firing its light AA guns in teh water. The first submarine hunters appeared at 0946 and until 1840 they made 23 attacks, launching between 80 and 90 depth charges.

PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Miroslav Morozov
Posted: October 13, 2005 08:44 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 37
Member No.: 141
Joined: November 15, 2003



Hello, all!

I'm fully agree with Andrey, but have to add, that Kreml' struck a magnetic mine in Streleckaja bukt off Sevastopol at 20.03 November 3rd, 1941. Of course she was not the victim of Delfinul.

Regards,
Miroslav
PM
Top
Victor
Posted: October 14, 2005 05:31 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



QUOTE (Andrey @ Oct 11 2005, 10:25 PM)
But according to Rohwer “Delfinul” attack was on 08:45 (10:45 Moscow Time?).

Isn't Moscow time is GMT + 3? Bucharest time is GMT + 2 so that would mean the attack happened at 09:43 Moscow time.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Miroslav Morozov
Posted: October 14, 2005 05:51 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 37
Member No.: 141
Joined: November 15, 2003



I don't know the Romanian time, but the difference between Moscow and Berlin time in November - 2 hours.

Regards,
Miroslav
PM
Top
Andrey
Posted: October 14, 2005 06:36 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 13
Member No.: 399
Joined: November 25, 2004



Hello, Miroslav and Viktor!

I think 08:45 in Delfinul report is Romanian Time of cource, not Berlin Time. Had Romania in 1941 Summer/Winter Time?

Regards,
Andrey
PMEmail Poster
Top
Victor
Posted: October 19, 2005 10:45 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



I had no idea, so I looked it up on the Internet. Wikipedia says that there was a permanent summer hour between 1 April 1940 and 2 November 1942 and it was discarded from 1943 to 1978, while an astrological site (acvaria.com) says that between 1941 and 1978 there was no summer hour in Romania. I tend to believe the astrological website, because the hour of birth of a certain person is very important when making personalized horoscopes, from which the respective website makes money. So they probably know better in these matters.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
sid guttridge
Posted: October 19, 2005 12:27 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 862
Member No.: 591
Joined: May 19, 2005



Hi Victor,

What does the Koslinski/Stanescu book say on the subject?

Rohwer, I think, uses the Operations Diary of German Admiral Black Sea as his source. If so, then his information will originally be from the report of Delfinul's commander. Does this report still exist?

What does the Koslinski/Stanescu book say on the subject? They are most likely to have had access to the report of Delfinul's commander.

Cheers,

Sid.

PMEmail Poster
Top
Claudiu1988
Posted: December 12, 2005 06:18 pm
Quote Post


Colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 943
Member No.: 398
Joined: November 23, 2004



Hello my grand grand fathers brother was on Delfinu. He fought at the battle of Sevastopol, he was on the submarin when they where atacked by russians. In the eve of the battle they lost their radio and antena and they thought they where dead. His name is Petre Zamfir he is now a "contra amiral" in reserve. He was also on the "Rechinu" and on the distroyer "Regina Maria". He was decorated with the Military Virtute and the German natzi Crimea Sheald. If you want photos tell me.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Victor
Posted: December 17, 2005 10:59 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Oct 19 2005, 02:27 PM)
Hi Victor,

What does the Koslinski/Stanescu book say on the subject? They are most likely to have had access to the report of Delfinul's commander.

Cheers,

Sid.

I already posted it:

QUOTE
On 5 November, at 0805 hours, the submarine spotted a transport sailing on an approximate course of 290 degrees towards Yalta. Costachescu passed by the ship's stern and at 0843 fired one torpedo from the aft-tube no. 6. The explosion of the torpedo was followed by the explosion of something inside the ship (maybe munitions or a steam engine) and the ship sank, still firing its light AA guns in the water. The first submarine hunters appeared at 0946 and until 1840 they made 23 attacks, launching between 80 and 90 depth charges.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Victor
Posted: December 17, 2005 11:00 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



QUOTE (Claudiu1988 @ Dec 12 2005, 08:18 PM)
Hello my grand grand fathers brother was on Delfinu. He fought at the battle of Sevastopol, he was on the submarin when they where atacked by russians. In the eve of the battle they lost their radio and antena and they thought they where dead. His name is Petre Zamfir he is now a "contra amiral" in reserve. He was also on the "Rechinu" and on the distroyer "Regina Maria". He was decorated with the Military Virtute and the German natzi Crimea Sheald. If you want photos tell me.

Claudiu, obviously, photos are more then welcomed.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Victorian
Posted: November 17, 2006 04:27 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 23
Member No.: 894
Joined: April 30, 2006



Hello, all, in the last issue of Modelism (5-2006, number 100), page 4 you can see a facsimile of Bibi Costăchescu's original report about the attack.

The date is 2 November, hour is a bit doubtful due of superimposing, it may be either 8:00 or 8:30. The "3" is impressed harder so it may be the correct figure.

He says "we see a big ship of about 12000 tons making route to cape Aitador, coming probably from Batum." No mention about any name.

The place is somewhere south of Crimeea. Anyway, earlier, at hours 3.30 they were 5 Miles South of Yalta.
PMEmail Poster
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (2) [1] 2  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0196 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]