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> Romanian Waffen SS Kragenspiegeln
Panzermahn
Posted: September 17, 2005 04:02 am
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Hi,

I am currently doing some research on the Waffen SS kragenspiegeln and I would like to ask about the motive of Romanian Waffen SS kragenspiegeln

Here are the photos which I know which show the design of diagonally crossed pikes with iron cross. Anyone can help with the motive for such designs? It would be great if someone had a photo of this kragenspiegeln worn by Romanian Waffen-SS volunteers

Thanks for any help,

Joachim

(IMG:http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5052/collarpatchesforromanianandbul1.th.jpg)

(IMG:http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5831/romanianwaffensstabs9rr.th.jpg)

This post has been edited by Panzermahn on September 17, 2005 04:04 am
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Imperialist
Posted: September 17, 2005 07:03 am
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QUOTE (Panzermahn @ Sep 17 2005, 04:02 AM)


(IMG:http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5831/romanianwaffensstabs9rr.th.jpg)

In the picture on the left here, the iron cross design is that of the Legion/Iron Guard.
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Victor
Posted: September 17, 2005 07:40 am
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Second image is from Armata Romana 1941-45 by Cornel I Scafes, Horia Vl Serbanescu & others, RAI, 1996. The book however doesn't mention any explanation for them other that they were the neck and arm patches of the 1st Romanian Waffen SS Regiment.

As Imperialist already said, the left one has the symbol of the Iron Guard on it (3 vertical and 3 horizontal bars).
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sid guttridge
Posted: September 17, 2005 10:54 am
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Hi Guys,

I seem to remember some controversy in the past as to whether there was any evidence of what national insignia, if any, the Romanian Waffen-SS were allocated, let alone wore.

Do any publications give details of primary sources for the designs illustrated?

Cheers,

Sid.
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Panzermahn
Posted: September 19, 2005 05:08 am
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Hello Victor and Imperialist,

First of all, apologies because I did not named the source where I got the photos. I saved it from the internet and I had forgotten the URL. Thanks for the source for the 2nd photo. Do you know the source for the first photo.

By the way, the 2nd design (the one with 3 vertical and horizontal bars) were from the design of Iron Guard. But all the designs I saw was the first one. Do you know the motive for the first design. The one with diagonally crossed pikes in a circle and an iron cross?

Also, i checked the European SS map of February 1945 (the one with all the kragenspiegelns of the waffen SS foreign volunteers) that there are none, not even a design for Romanian Waffen SS volunteers which made me to conclude that these Romanian Waffen SS kragenspiegeln designs were actually not officially approved by the RSHA. I believed these Romanian Waffen SS kragenspiegeln designs were unofficially approved by the unit commander in order to create some sense of national identity and cohesion in order to motivate them patriotically that by volunteering in Waffen SS, these Romanian volunteers were fighting for Romania and Europe against Bolshevism.

What is your opinion on this? Also, if anyone had any photos of Romanian Waffen SS volunteers wearing these kragenspiegeln design, please contact me as I welcomed any contributions for our book project on the kragenspiegeln of the Waffen SS and SD Foreign Auxilliaries. All contributions would be fully credited to the contributor.

Thanks for any help

Sid,

I don't know if R.J. Bender, Andrew Mollo, H.P. Taylor, John Angolia, David LittleJohn or Robin Lumsden books had any info about Rumanian Waffen SS insignias. Anyone can help?

The only publications I knew (sorry for my shallow knowledge on Romanian Waffen SS) that deals with Romanian Waffen SS were

Richard Landwehr's Siegrunen Monograph on Rumanian Volunteers of the Waffen SS (very scarce, might be out of print). The cover of this siegrunen monograph shows the 1st design of the diagonally crossed pikes in a circle and an iron cross, not the 2nd design of 3 vertical and horizontal bars.

Carlos Caballero Jurado's National Army of Romania

I try looking at the Waffen SS handbook by Gordon Williamson but unfortunately nothing is known about Romanian or Bulgarian Waffen SS volunteer.

Mostly, the Romanian volunteers of the Waffen SS were from the cadre of Iron Guard members who escaped to Germany to avoid Antonescu's prosecution and they were imprisoned by the Germans. But in 1944, as the Soviets were poised to invade Romania, the imprisoned Iron Guard members were released by the Germans and asked to formed a Romanian Waffen SS regiment.

There is also a Romanian Waffen SS commando unit, Jagdcommando Rumanien, under Jadgverbande Suedost but I am not sure whether they wore the Rumanian Waffen SS kragenspiegeln.

Thanks again for all of your replies

Joachim

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Panzermahn
Posted: September 19, 2005 05:11 am
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Yes, I would like to ask if anyone knew the spiegeln for Romanian SD Foreign Auxilliaries. This subject is even more obscure compare to Romanian Waffen SS volunteers if I am not mistaken.

Thanks for any help

Joachim
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Victor
Posted: September 19, 2005 03:07 pm
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I don't know what is the source for the first image. It was posted by the member Maresal-06 on the Axis History Forum. I posted the second image in the same topic. Only Geto-Dacul (the unsername of Maresal-06 on this forum) knows it.

As for the symbolism of the other patch, I have no idea.

Also I haven't seen photos with Romanian troops wearing the patches, but it is also true that I haven't seen that many photos of Romanian Waffen SS.
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sid guttridge
Posted: September 20, 2005 09:22 am
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Hi Victor,

Do I presume, by reading between the lines of your last sentence, that you have seen SOME photos of Romanian Waffen-SS men?

Cheers,

Sid.
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Imperialist
Posted: September 20, 2005 11:15 am
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QUOTE (Panzermahn @ Sep 19 2005, 05:08 AM)


By the way, the 2nd design (the one with 3 vertical and horizontal bars) were from the design of Iron Guard. But all the designs I saw was the first one. Do you know the motive for the first design. The one with diagonally crossed pikes in a circle and an iron cross?


Hi Joachim,

the design of a cross and a circle is a legionary/iron guard design also, but I dont know about the diagonally crossed spikes. They were presumably added later. The romanian army, from what I know, did not undergo a major symbol and uniform reconfiguration like it happened in Germany after the nazis came to power, so presumably the symbols were later taken from where they were available, and that was the Iron Guard movement...

take care
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Dani
Posted: September 20, 2005 11:15 am
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Victor
Posted: September 20, 2005 03:22 pm
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QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 20 2005, 11:22 AM)
Hi Victor,

Do I presume, by reading between the lines of your last sentence, that you have seen SOME photos of Romanian Waffen-SS men?

Cheers,

Sid.

Armata Romana 1941-45 by Cornel I Scafes, Horia Vl Serbanescu & others, RAI, 1996 has some.
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