Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (4) [1] 2 3 ... Last »  ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Horthy - war criminal ?
udar
Posted: September 16, 2005 03:02 pm
Quote Post


Plutonier
*

Group: Members
Posts: 281
Member No.: 354
Joined: September 24, 2004



QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 16 2005, 02:40 PM)

You should not mix Horthy with Mussolini (or Hitler).
Now that you mentioned the Nuremberg Trials, Horthy was present there only as a witness. He was not convicted as a war criminal.

Gen. Dénes

A history mistake.For many romanians(and for others),was a war criminal,compared with Hitler or Mussolini.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Dénes
Posted: September 16, 2005 03:47 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4356
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



QUOTE (udar @ Sep 16 2005, 09:02 PM)
A history mistake.For many romanians(and for others),was a war criminal,compared with Hitler or Mussolini.

O.K., Radu.
Let's see then, in your opinion why wasn't Horthy tried as a war criminal, once he was already at Nuremberg?

Gen. Dénes
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
tomcat1974
Posted: September 16, 2005 05:09 pm
Quote Post


Plutonier
*

Group: Members
Posts: 263
Member No.: 427
Joined: December 20, 2004



I think many bad things happend from both sides of the war.
PMEmail Poster
Top
dragos
Posted: September 16, 2005 05:18 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 2397
Member No.: 2
Joined: February 11, 2003



Denes, let's see what's the excuse for invading Yugoslavia.

Does Horthy qualifies for crimes against peace?
PMUsers WebsiteYahoo
Top
Dénes
Posted: September 16, 2005 07:03 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4356
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 16 2005, 11:18 PM)
Does Horthy qualifies for crimes against peace?

This topic is pointless. The answer was already given over 50 years ago, when Horthy was not indicted by the Nuremberg Trial, as they didn't have any charges against him.

Now, if you wanted to find out "why do you think Horthy was a war criminal?", it's totally different...

As for the initial question, FYI, Horthy refused Hitler's offer to joint the attack against Yugoslavia on April 6, 1941 (similar to Antonescu, BTW).
Hungarian troops crossed the former Yugoslav borders only when Yugoslavia de facto ceased to exist.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 16, 2005 07:04 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
dragos03
Posted: September 16, 2005 07:03 pm
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Member No.: 163
Joined: December 13, 2003



The massacres commited by Horthy's armies against Romanians are enough to qualify him as a war criminal. He also deported Jews, although on a small scale.
PM
Top
Dénes
Posted: September 16, 2005 07:07 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4356
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 17 2005, 01:03 AM)
The massacres commited by Horthy's armies against Romanians are enough to qualify him as a war criminal.

That's your opinion, I believe. Apparently, those in charge right after the war thought differently.

QUOTE
He also deported Jews, although on a small scale.

Hungary was an occupied country by then. The Jews were deported on Berlin's orders.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 16, 2005 07:09 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
dragos03
Posted: September 16, 2005 07:10 pm
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Member No.: 163
Joined: December 13, 2003



You mean your opinion is that these massacres didn't make him a war criminal?

And Horthy also deported Jews, before the Germans occupied Hungary. On a small scale but he did.
PM
Top
Dénes
Posted: September 16, 2005 07:16 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4356
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 17 2005, 01:10 AM)
You mean your opinion is that these massacres didn't make him a war criminal?

That's not my opinion. It's those ones', who were in charge right after the war.

BTW, I am not aware Horthy being asked to be extradicted by Rumania or any other country (including Israel).

QUOTE
And Horthy also deported Jews, before the Germans occupied Hungary. On a small scale but he did.

Can you be more specific?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 16, 2005 07:17 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
dragos03
Posted: September 16, 2005 07:19 pm
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Member No.: 163
Joined: December 13, 2003



You dodged the question. What is your opinion?
PM
Top
dragos03
Posted: September 16, 2005 07:27 pm
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Member No.: 163
Joined: December 13, 2003



Some details about the crimes against the Jews.

"Three anti-Semitic laws completed the exclusion of the Hungarian Jews between 1938 and 1941. The first two laws made their economic situation more and more difficult; the Third Jewish Law, which was passed in 1941, however, was a real, Nuremberg-type, racial law introducing "race-protective" orders.

In July and August of 1941 nearly 16,000 Jews regarded as aliens or whose citizenship was stated to be unresolved, were deported to territories under German rule in Galicia where the Germans massacred them in the vicinity of Kamenec-Podolskij."

"In January 1942 in the Southern region (Délvidék, which was reclaimed from Yugoslavia) during an action taken against Serb partisans Hungarian gendarmeries murdered nearly 3,500 people. There were about 800 Jews among them. The gendarmeries shot their victims and threw their bodies into holes blown in the ice of the frozen-over Danube. Evidently, in order to frighten the civilians, they also hanged people in the public squares as we can see in the pictures."

(IMG:http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/791/hunjews4kj.jpg)

Source: www.holocaust-history.org
PM
Top
Dénes
Posted: September 16, 2005 08:17 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4356
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



Your examples don't fit the original claim.

First, those Jews deported to Galicia in 1941 were staying in Hungary illegally and were returned where they come from. Then they were killed by the Germans - as your quote clearly says - not by Hungarians.

Second, the well-publicized Újvidék (Novi Sad) executions were directed not against Jews, but generally partisans and, unfortunately, local civilians, as reprisal for many sabotages and sniping. Among the civilians executed were Jews, too.
The officers resonsible for those tragic events were prosecuted by Horthy's administration. Some were jailed, some escaped justice, seeking refuge in Germany instead.

Here is an excerpt from a book manuscript, which will hopefully help you understand better the events (if you're interested in it at all):
QUOTE
On March 9, 1942, Horthy replaced László Bárdossy with his confidant, Miklós Kállay, in the seat of the Prime Minister. Bárdossy was replaced because of his increasingly pro-German attitude and the right-shifting internal policies, including the introduction of the so-called 3rd Jewish Law, which caused further hardship for Hungary’s sizeable Jewish population. He was also partially responsible for the failure to prevent the January 1942 mass execution of approximately 3,755 armed partisans and mostly Serbian, but also some Jewish, civilians in Southern Hungary, at Újvidék (today Novi Sad, Serbia). The executions were ordered as reprisals after sharp increase in ambushes, sniping and sabotage by Serb partisans sent by Tito from outside Hungary. Following the mass executions, partisan activity in the mentioned Délvidék Region practically ceased for the following three years.


Any other 'proofs' up in your sleeve?

Gen. Dénes
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Imperialist
Posted: September 16, 2005 08:28 pm
Quote Post


General de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2399
Member No.: 499
Joined: February 09, 2005



QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 16 2005, 07:03 PM)
The massacres commited by Horthy's armies against Romanians are enough to qualify him as a war criminal. He also deported Jews, although on a small scale.

If he wasnt found guilty at Nuremberg, he wasnt a war criminal.
PM
Top
dragos03
Posted: September 16, 2005 08:29 pm
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Member No.: 163
Joined: December 13, 2003



As long as you continue to dodge my question, i have nothing more to add.
PM
Top
Zayets
Posted: September 16, 2005 09:07 pm
Quote Post


Plutonier adjutant
*

Group: Members
Posts: 363
Member No.: 504
Joined: February 15, 2005



I am the last one to speak for Horthy,but I say this : if he wasn't found war criminal by a recognized/legitimate court then he isn't a war criminal.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (4) [1] 2 3 ... Last » Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0249 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]