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> 23 August 1944, 61 years ago...
Dénes
Posted: August 26, 2005 01:29 pm
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QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 26 2005, 06:05 PM)
Mother Russia,or better put,Stalin throw them in gulag because they were considered defectors even if they fought Germany until they became POWs.

I wouldn't mix the act of voluntary defection of the state of Rumania with what Stalin had perceived of his former soldiers who involuntarily became POW.

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Would you tell that to Di Cesare, Stoian, or whoever that they defected Axis in August 23rd?


They did not defect. The Rumanian Kingdom had defected. They just followed orders (and their King), as soldiers do.

The Rumanians who retraited with the German army, or flew out of the country, were the ones who actually defected.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on August 26, 2005 01:31 pm
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 01:36 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ Aug 26 2005, 01:24 PM)
The act of defection from the Axis was contained in the royal proclamation, aired in the evening of August 23, 1944.

Gen. Dénes

As V.Molotov answered to Patrascanu's question why the conditions were so harsh when USSR already offeren Antonescu's regime way easier conditions in previous negociations : Antonescu represented Romanian people.You represent nobody here.
Kings proclamation was an unilateral act. There was no armistice signed in 23. The king refused to even warn the Army about these.Hence 130.000 romanian troops were made prisoners instantly since they received the order not to fight against the sovietics.Soviet soldiers were also puzzled.What to do now in front of teh Romanians.Since there was no armistice but just an order to cease fighting,Soviets took them prisoners.Armistice came in September 12 same year.

This post has been edited by Zayets on August 26, 2005 01:37 pm
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Dénes
Posted: August 26, 2005 01:39 pm
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QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 26 2005, 06:54 PM)
Not quite exactly.Hungary was invaded immediately after Hitler found out that Horthy prepares to turn weapons against him. The same thing supposed to happen in Romania but Antonescu managed to convince Hitler that the situation was under control. Saying that Hungary continued to fight against USSR is like saying Austria and Czechoslovakia continued to fight against USSR.

Hungary was already occupied militarily by the German since March 19, 1944. After October 15, the Germans replaced Horthy and his political entourage (along with many pro-Horthy, anti-German superior officers) with Szálasi and his henchmen, as well as pro-German officers, and introduced a strict military supervision of the Hungarian Army (Honvédség). However, the Honvédség did continue to fight against the Soviets as a separate entity until the bitter end; therefore, the comparison with the (non-existing) armies of Austria or Czechoslovakia (states which did not exist during WW2) is inappropriate.

Gen. Dénes
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 01:51 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ Aug 26 2005, 01:39 PM)
QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 26 2005, 06:54 PM)
Not quite exactly.Hungary was invaded immediately after Hitler found out that Horthy prepares to turn weapons against him. The same thing supposed to happen in Romania but Antonescu managed to convince Hitler that the situation was under control. Saying that Hungary continued to fight against USSR is like saying Austria and Czechoslovakia continued to fight against USSR.

Hungary was already occupied militarily by the German since March 19, 1944. After October 15, the Germans replaced Horthy and his political entourage (along with many pro-Horthy, anti-German superior officers) with Szálasi and his henchmen, as well as pro-German officers, and introduced a strict military supervision of the Hungarian Army (Honvédség). However, the Honvédség did continue to fight against the Soviets as a separate entity until the bitter end; therefore, the comparison with the (non-existing) armies of Austria or Czechoslovakia (states which did not exist during WW2) is inappropriate.

Gen. Dénes

Yup,Honvédség was just a puppet in that period under total German control.Should Germany took control of Romania above Antonescu's head same thing would happened in Romania.Fight untile the very end against the Sovietics.
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 26, 2005 02:25 pm
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Of course the Russian soldiers behaved like savages.What would you expect? 12 milions deaths in your country , there's no more room for chivalry and fancy talks.


Ohh.. but what about the other 18 milion USSR citizens killed by Stalin ? :)
My grandfather on my mother side was also captured at Stlaingrad, he later returned with TV :unsure:

The point is: a decision was taken to reduce the dammage on our country, thus we got out of the Axis on 23rd August, but I again say - this is in no way an honorable thing, necesarry yes, but not honorable. My thoughts with all those who fought and died or suffered during ww2 (romanians, russians, germans, hungarians, americans, british), they were all human and all had feelings, I do agree that we should remember them no matter on what front and against whom they faught.
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 03:09 pm
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QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 26 2005, 02:25 PM)
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Of course the Russian soldiers behaved like savages.What would you expect? 12 milions deaths in your country , there's no more room for chivalry and fancy talks.


Ohh.. but what about the other 18 milion USSR citizens killed by Stalin ? :)
My grandfather on my mother side was also captured at Stlaingrad, he later returned with TV :unsure:

The point is: a decision was taken to reduce the dammage on our country, thus we got out of the Axis on 23rd August, but I again say - this is in no way an honorable thing, necesarry yes, but not honorable. My thoughts with all those who fought and died or suffered during ww2 (romanians, russians, germans, hungarians, americans, british), they were all human and all had feelings, I do agree that we should remember them no matter on what front and against whom they faught.

I am not counting here who killed more people.Is quite sick to do that actually. You release a whole pack of soldiers full of revenge feelings and you ask why did they rape,killed and destroyed? The winner takes it all.It was like that.Always.
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mabadesc
Posted: August 26, 2005 03:51 pm
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You release a whole pack of soldiers full of revenge feelings and you ask why did they rape,killed and destroyed?


Yes, I think you do have to ask why, and not expect it to happen naturally. Armies have discipline that can and must be enforced with rules and punishment.

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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 26, 2005 04:42 pm
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I am not counting here who killed more people.Is quite sick to do that actually. You release a whole pack of soldiers full of revenge feelings and you ask why did they rape,killed and destroyed? The winner takes it all.It was like that.Always.


Did the british and french soldiers act the same against defeaetd germany ? Do you see any behaviour difference here ? Did romanians behave the same while advaning/retreating through russia ?
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Imperialist
Posted: August 26, 2005 04:44 pm
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QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 26 2005, 04:42 PM)
QUOTE
I am not counting here who killed more people.Is quite sick to do that actually. You release a whole pack of soldiers full of revenge feelings and you ask why did they rape,killed and destroyed? The winner takes it all.It was like that.Always.


Did the british and french soldiers act the same against defeaetd germany ?

Did the germans do to them what they did to the russians?
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 26, 2005 04:54 pm
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You may like it or not, but the difference of mentality is clear. Russians knew very well that romanian troops behaved more then ok with local populations however they had orders after 23rd august to act like savage beasts and that's a fact.
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Imperialist
Posted: August 26, 2005 05:03 pm
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QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 26 2005, 04:54 PM)
You may like it or not, but the difference of mentality is clear. Russians knew very well that romanian troops behaved more then ok with local populations however they had orders after 23rd august to act like savage beasts and that's a fact.

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Then too, when they [romanians - my note] entered the war they thought they were betting on a sure thing, and they committed atrocities in the parts of Russia they occupied. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and they have to face Russian revenge.


http://www.historians.org/projects/GIRound...ns/Balkans4.htm

Are you sure the romanians acted more than OK in Russia?
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 26, 2005 05:04 pm
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What do you know about romanian military priests and doctors on the eastern front ?

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on August 26, 2005 05:04 pm
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 05:16 pm
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Guys,chill down a bit.The difference between mentalities is more than obvious.We can discuss over and over about this and never reach any conclusion but the fact that the war of any kind sucks.One could not tell that Russian people are savages when their culture and achievements overhelms any culture in Central and Eastern Europe.You can't account them for being indoctrinated ore uneducated when this was the tactic from the very begining.
I am the last one to speak for the Russians.The ones knowing me in person have heard what I have to say about Soviet Union and their people.But lets not confuse tem with what Russia did on other grounds than war etc.
I am sure that British,German,you name it have had their worst hours in their history at a certain point and that can be proven but whats the point now? You can't bring back the dead from the tomb you know.
We are talking about August 23rd here,that simple.From Romanian perspective as much possible.
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 26, 2005 05:31 pm
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Agree with this Zayets.
I already expressed my point of view that I see absolutelly no honor in switching sides at 23rd August '44 but I do agree it was something necesarry.
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Victor
Posted: August 29, 2005 06:15 am
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Zayets, why do you consider the conditions offered to the pre-23 August government "way better" than those offered to the post-23 August government? As far as I can tell they were about the same.

As for the 130,000 POWs, there is no certainty that the Soviets would have respected any previously signed armistice. Stalin, when in a position of power, wouldn't hesitate to break any treaty to achieve his goal. One of them was to install Communism in Romania and the Royal Army had to be disbanded. The USSR also needed a lot of cheap labor force. Taking "POWs" (it is inappropriate IMO to describe them this way, as they weren't fighting anymore) was a way of solving some of these problems.

Immediately after 23 August 1944, there was a joint Romanian-Soviet commission for the release of POWs in Moldavia. Only the Romanian generals were released, while the rest of the men were quickly moved eastward that when the commission finally arrived in the places were the camps were supposed to be, there was no one there anymore and the Soviets claimed there were no POWs taken. Furthermore, it took many years for the Romanian POWs to be returned home even after Romania became a "brotherly" Communist republic.

D13-th_Mytzu, such generalizations (Russian soldiers=savage barbarians) aren't welcome on this forum, so refrain from making more of them in the future. While it is true that there were many illegalities committed by Soviet troops on Romanian soil, it doesn't mean that all Soviet soldiers behaved like this. Many of them were dying on the front in Transylvania while some were looting or raping. So putting all in the same bucket is insulting.

The idea that Romanians behaved like angels on USSR territory is just a myth. Romanian troops took part in anti-partisan fights (which I don't have to tell you what it meant), looted etc. Again, it doesn't mean that every single soldier did it, but they weren't all angels.
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