Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (5) « First ... 3 4 [5]   ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Romania 1940 - the Possible War: Romanian Army, Romanian Army (land forces) in 1940
Victor
Posted: April 19, 2009 06:16 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4332
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



See MODEList no.2, just published.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
MMM
Posted: April 24, 2009 04:29 pm
Quote Post


General de divizie
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1463
Member No.: 2323
Joined: December 02, 2008



Or the same forum:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...hl=stahel&st=15
:) As usually, I saw it after the facts...
PMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteYahoo
Top
contras
Posted: February 15, 2011 11:56 am
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 730
Member No.: 2693
Joined: December 28, 2009



Not totally OOT, but interesting: Soviet-Nazi military parade at Brest Litovsk, after ocupation of Poland. Photos and a short movie.

http://www.george-damian.ro/pactul-ribbent...itovsk-300.html
PMEmail Poster
Top
Imperialist
Posted: February 15, 2011 07:47 pm
Quote Post


General de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2399
Member No.: 499
Joined: February 09, 2005



QUOTE (contras @ February 15, 2011 11:56 am)
Not totally OOT, but interesting: Soviet-Nazi military parade at Brest Litovsk, after ocupation of Poland. Photos and a short movie.

http://www.george-damian.ro/pactul-ribbent...itovsk-300.html

I don't see why GD calls that event "ocultat" since it was known at the time.
PM
Top
ANDREAS
Posted: February 15, 2011 10:51 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



QUOTE
I don't see why GD calls that event "ocultat" since it was known at the time.

Probably because from june 1941 onwards the soviets tried to hide all traces of their former friendship with the fascists... so, many of these images have been "lost" or ... "hidden", at least from us in Eastern Europe?
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
contras
Posted: February 16, 2011 08:37 am
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 730
Member No.: 2693
Joined: December 28, 2009



QUOTE
many of these images have been "lost" or ... "hidden", at least from us in Eastern Europe?


Of course were "hidden", before 1990 you can't find anything about this. Just oficial propaganda.
PMEmail Poster
Top
MMM
Posted: February 16, 2011 07:50 pm
Quote Post


General de divizie
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1463
Member No.: 2323
Joined: December 02, 2008



Actually Gorbachev admitted it in 1989; there even was a "committee" of some sort that declared the pact void. I have to recall its name (the Soviet committee, Imean)...
PMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteYahoo
Top
Agarici
Posted: May 26, 2012 11:44 am
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



QUOTE (Victor @ August 18, 2005 09:12 am)
QUOTE (Agarici)
What was the organization of the Moto-mechanized brigade (created in October 1939)? Was there a second unit of this type created until September 1940, as initially planned?


The 1st Mechanized Brigade, based at Turda, was made up of the:
-4th Motorized Vanatori Group
-11th Motorized Vanatori Group
-1st Motorized Artillery Regiment
-Special Tasks Battalion
-Recon Detachment
-Armored Car Company
-Motorized MG Platoon
-Motorcycle Platoon
-AT and AA Platoon

Each group was made of:
-2 vanatori battalions, each of 3 rifle companies, one machine-gun company, one heavy weapons company, one automobile company
-one tank battalion (31 tanks)

The artillery regiment had 3 battalions of 12 artillery pieces each.

There was a 2nd Brigade created in Targoviste for a short while.

QUOTE (Agarici)
   - What was the official doctrine of Romanian armoured&mechanized units? Even more specific, where were the young tank officers sent for specialization/studies abroad (if there was the case)?


Since October 1919, all the tank instructors were Romanians. The doctrine they taught was French as were the tanks (FT 17s).


Back to an earlier discussion, I wonder how come that, before June 1940, the sole Romanian (functional) mechanized brigade was located in Turda, together with the “Western front” units, as opposed to being part of the army group on the eastern frontier - in order to face the Soviet armored and mechanized might, which was more threatening than Hungary’s two rapid/fast brigades?
PMEmail Poster
Top
Victor
Posted: May 26, 2012 06:54 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4332
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



Good question. The unit was created in October 1939 and based in Turda and Alba Iulia, but was fully mobilized only on 28 June 1940. By then it was already too late.

However, not all the tanks were concentrated there. Some were used in support of the troops in Moldavia as well, assigned to the Cavalry Corps, if I am not mistaking. See for example the action at Giurgiulesti of cpt. Napoleon Popescu.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Agarici
Posted: May 27, 2012 02:58 pm
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



What happened with the second brigade? From what I know, the formation of two motorized/mechanized brigades was planned in 1938, along with other measures to introduce the motor transport at different levels, in the Romanian army. By 1939/1940, if I’m not mistaking, there was enough material available to constitute them - enough transports for several (independent?) motor infantry regiments. As it can be seen from Victor earlier post, there were also enough tanks (R 2s) for the organization of a second mechanized brigade. The fact that it failed to materialize wasn’t a wise thing, since both the previous experiences (on the Polish and French fronts) and the ulterior Romanian actions on the Soviet theatre starting 1941 proved that the specialized armored/mech. units (including tanks, support infantry, motorized artillery) fared better (even if rather small in size) as opposed to using the tanks as support for other separate units.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Agarici
Posted: May 27, 2012 03:35 pm
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



QUOTE (Victor @ May 26, 2012 06:54 pm)
Good question. The unit was created in October 1939 and based in Turda and Alba Iulia, but was fully mobilized only on 28 June 1940. By then it was already too late.

However, not all the tanks were concentrated there. Some were used in support of the troops in Moldavia as well, assigned to the Cavalry Corps, if I am not mistaking. See for example the action at Giurgiulesti of cpt. Napoleon Popescu.


In the Giurgiulesti bridge episode, as far as I know ( http://www.9am.ro/stiri-revista-presei/200...lui-stalin.html ) the Romanians engaged one tank company.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Victor
Posted: June 02, 2012 06:30 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4332
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



QUOTE (Agarici @ May 27, 2012 04:58 pm)
What happened with the second brigade? From what I know, the formation of two motorized/mechanized brigades was planned in 1938, along with other measures to introduce the motor transport at different levels, in the Romanian army. By 1939/1940, if I’m not mistaking, there was enough material available to constitute them - enough transports for several (independent?) motor infantry regiments. As it can be seen from Victor earlier post, there were also enough tanks (R 2s) for the organization of a second mechanized brigade. The fact that it failed to materialize wasn’t a wise thing, since both the previous experiences (on the Polish and French fronts) and the ulterior Romanian actions on the Soviet theatre starting 1941 proved that the specialized armored/mech. units (including tanks, support infantry, motorized artillery) fared better (even if rather small in size) as opposed to using the tanks as support for other separate units.


I am not so sure that there was enough equipment for a second brigade. In 1941, the 1st Armored Division went into combat with only one motorized infantry regiment, made up of one battalion from each of the two regiments. There were also many shortages of men with the many different technical skills such a unit required.

Also, very important, there was a shortage of generals who could understand how to employ armored units. :)

The 4th Army had several tank companies assigned to it. Not all were deployed at Giurgiulesti though.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Victor
Posted: June 04, 2012 10:29 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4332
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



See Petre Otu, Imbratisarea anacondei, page 102. Apparently there wasn't enough material to form a 2nd Brigade.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Victor
Posted: June 04, 2012 11:56 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4332
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



Let's try to paint a picture of the Romanian deployment, using the data from the above mentioned book and the map of the deployment from 15 November 1939 in Romania in al doilea razboi mondial, Ed. Meridiane, 1995.

The Operative Directive no. 14/17 December 1939 issued by the General Staff instructed the 1st Army Group (3rd and 4th Army) to fight on the Ceremus - Prut River (until Ungheni) - Cornesti Massive - Dnestr River line. This meant abandoning Northern Bessarabia without much fighting.

The 1st Army Group, facing the Soviet Union (my theory):

1. 3rd Army in Bukovina and Northern Moldavia:
- 10th Corps in Cernauti: 7th Infantry Division (left wing), 8th Infantry Division (right wing, in Cernauti), 34th Reserve Infantry Division (west of Radauti)
- 8th Corps (Dorohoi and Botosani area): 6th Infantry Division (Dorohoi, link with 10th Corps), 5th Infantry Division (Botosani)
- 4th Corps (Iasi): 35th Reserve Infantry Division (left wing, link with 8th Corps), 14th Infantry Division (North of Iasi), 15th Infantry Division (across the Prut, North of Ungheni)
- 31st Reserve Infantry Division near Tg Frumos as 3rd Army's reserve
- 2nd Cavalry Division in Northern Bessarabia, to slow down Soviet advance, set up ambushes etc.
In total: 9 infantry divisions + 1 cavalry division (according to P. Otu Imbratisarea anacondei, page 119)

2. 4th Army:
- 3rd Corps (Cronesti Massive, North of Chisinau): 33rd Reserve Infantry Division, 21st Infantry Division
- 11th Corps (Chisinau, Tighina): 26th and 27th Reserve Infantry Division
- Cavalry Corps (Bolgrad): 12th Infantry Division, 32nd Reserve Infantry Division, 3rd Cavalry Division
In total: 8 divisions (according to P. Otu Imbratisarea anacondei, page 102 + 119)

3. 13th Infantry Division in reserve of the army group

4. 1st Mountain Brigade on the mountainous border at the junction with the 1st Army in Transylvania. In March 1940 the brigade was subordinated, together with the 4th Mountain Brigade to the newly formed Mountain Corps. On 17 May, the Mountain Corps command was stationed at Vatra Dornei, in Bukovina, to bolster the defense of the area. It is unclear though if the 4th Mountain Brigade had been taken out of its previous positions in Maramures.

5. 1st Corps: 2nd, 3rd and 11th Infantry Divisions, on the Siret River, in reserve of the 1st Army Group and then of the General Staff

This week, if there's enough time, I will try to make a map with my theory.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (5) « First ... 3 4 [5]  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0277 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]