Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (5) « First ... 3 4 [5]   ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Tanks or Aircraft, An alternate-history poll
 
Would WW2 Romania have been better off with a modest tank industry? Or the aircraft industry it had?
The aircraft industry which actually existed. [ 7 ]  [25.93%]
A tank industry along the lines of Czechoslovakia or Poland. [ 13 ]  [48.15%]
Split the difference -- repair and license-building of both. [ 7 ]  [25.93%]
Total Votes: 27
Guests cannot vote 
Victor
Posted on July 14, 2005 03:44 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



Well, I mentioned the fact that Romania eventually received the license for the DB engines along with the rest of the Bf-109G. But it was too late.

Out of curiosity, when were the first DB engines produced at IAR?
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
PanzerKing
Posted on July 15, 2005 12:22 am
Quote Post


Sergent major
*

Group: Members
Posts: 216
Member No.: 29
Joined: July 07, 2003



I wonder why Romania didn't try to put the DB engine in an IAR-80? This seems like a simpler solution since the IAR 80 was already in production and only the engines and new noses would have to be produced. Why couldn't they have produced a plane like that when they had already successfully tested an IAR 80 with a DB inline engine?
PMUsers WebsiteMSN
Top
Florin
Posted on July 15, 2005 03:55 am
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1870
Member No.: 17
Joined: June 22, 2003



QUOTE (SiG @ Jul 14 2005, 04:23 AM)
...... all you guys talking about the grand Romanian war industry are forgetting one thing. When they entered the war, all the axis countries believed/hoped/wanted for the war to be short (about 6 months). They knew they had to spend all available resources in producing what wheapons could pe produced, and not to invest in new factories. It wold have been hopeless anyway, to try to beat the allies in an industrial competition.
Just my two (new) "bani".

I did not forget. I realized after writing the previous note.

If the Axis would understand in 1940 that it will be a long war, it would not be so hopeless as Sid wrote, regarding an industrial competition with the Allies.
But at least 3 very precious years were lost, each of them with the hope that that year will be last of the war (1940, 1941, 1942). Actually it took Stalingrad and El Alamein for this) before Germany, and to a lesser extent the other European Axis, started to gear up with the industrial output.
Needless to add, the 3 lost years were even more important regarding all those "wonder weapons", and here I would add to the countless German inventions the Italian jet plane made by Caprini-Caproni.
However, even if the German and Italian industries would mobilize seriously in 1940, the scarcity of available raw materials would remain a problem. It is funny to remember that in North Africa the Axis searched to find water, but they did not search and did not find any petroleum.

Also it is interesting to see that after a Romanian, Henri Coanda, designed, built and tested in flight in 1910 the first airplane with turbojet in history, the Romanian engineers completely forgot this event and eventually bought licenses for motor jet technology in the 1970's, like any other country with second class industry.
PM
Top
Florin
Posted on July 15, 2005 04:02 am
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1870
Member No.: 17
Joined: June 22, 2003



QUOTE (PanzerKing @ Jul 14 2005, 07:22 PM)
I wonder why Romania didn't try to put the DB engine in an IAR-80? This seems like a simpler solution since the IAR 80 was already in production and only the engines and new noses would have to be produced. Why couldn't they have produced a plane like that when they had already successfully tested an IAR 80 with a DB inline engine?

You have the answer in few messages posted before yours.
PM
Top
SiG
Posted on July 15, 2005 12:20 pm
Quote Post


Fruntas
*

Group: Members
Posts: 86
Member No.: 616
Joined: June 29, 2005



QUOTE (Florin @ Jul 15 2005, 03:55 AM)
If the Axis would understand in 1940 that it will be a long war, it would not be so hopeless

United States 41.7%
Germany 14.4%
USSR 14.0%
UK 10.2%
France 4.2%
Japan 3.5%
Italy 2.5%
Seven Powers (total) (90.5%)

Tis is the share of the seven major powers out of the global warmaking potential in 1937. The source is the book by Paul Kennedy "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers"
As you can see, the US totally dwarfs the competition, even if it wasn't yet fully recovered from the effects of the great depression. Even if the Axis decided to build up their economy for a long war, it is very unlikely that they could catch up with the US by 1941. The only solution for winning was indeed blitzkrieg strategy, combined of course, with the use of highly advanced weapons. And even so, it would be a very difficut war.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Imperialist
Posted on July 15, 2005 02:12 pm
Quote Post


General de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2399
Member No.: 499
Joined: February 09, 2005



QUOTE (SiG @ Jul 15 2005, 12:20 PM)
QUOTE (Florin @ Jul 15 2005, 03:55 AM)
If the Axis would understand in 1940 that it will be a long war, it would not be so hopeless

United States 41.7%
Germany 14.4%
USSR 14.0%
UK 10.2%
France 4.2%
Japan 3.5%
Italy 2.5%
Seven Powers (total) (90.5%)

Tis is the share of the seven major powers out of the global warmaking potential in 1937. The source is the book by Paul Kennedy "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers"
As you can see, the US totally dwarfs the competition, even if it wasn't yet fully recovered from the effects of the great depression. Even if the Axis decided to build up their economy for a long war, it is very unlikely that they could catch up with the US by 1941. The only solution for winning was indeed blitzkrieg strategy, combined of course, with the use of highly advanced weapons. And even so, it would be a very difficut war.

SiG, thats a very important piece of info. Can you please tell me the page in the book where this statistic appears?

thanks a lot!
PM
Top
SiG
Posted on July 15, 2005 08:15 pm
Quote Post


Fruntas
*

Group: Members
Posts: 86
Member No.: 616
Joined: June 29, 2005



Sorry, but I don't have the book at hand at the moment. I had to copy the info in my previous post from another website, but I don't know the exact page in the book. :(
PMEmail Poster
Top
Imperialist
Posted on July 15, 2005 08:20 pm
Quote Post


General de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2399
Member No.: 499
Joined: February 09, 2005



QUOTE (SiG @ Jul 15 2005, 08:15 PM)
Sorry, but I don't have the book at hand at the moment. I had to copy the info in my previous post from another website, but I don't know the exact page in the book. :(

OK SiG, thank you, the info is useful anyway. I'll try to find the book.

take care
PM
Top
PanzerKing
Posted on July 16, 2005 12:39 am
Quote Post


Sergent major
*

Group: Members
Posts: 216
Member No.: 29
Joined: July 07, 2003



QUOTE (Florin @ Jul 15 2005, 04:02 AM)
QUOTE (PanzerKing @ Jul 14 2005, 07:22 PM)
I wonder why Romania didn't try to put the DB engine in an IAR-80? This seems like a simpler solution since the IAR 80 was already in production and only the engines and new noses would have to be produced. Why couldn't they have produced a plane like that when they had already successfully tested an IAR 80 with a DB inline engine?

You have the answer in few messages posted before yours.

Victor stated that they eventually recieved the license for the DB and Bf-109G in '43!
PMUsers WebsiteMSN
Top
Florin
Posted on July 16, 2005 06:10 am
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1870
Member No.: 17
Joined: June 22, 2003



Sid,

Your statistics are impressive, but I still dare to keep my idea.

As you know, Albert Speer took over the Minister of Weaponry in early 1943, after Alfred Todt died in a plane crash in Russia. In one year and a half, he obtained the impressive productions which set 1944 as the record year of Nazi Germany industry, in spite of all that bombing.
Just imagine that the "speed up" would start in 1940, and you will have in 1942 the production which was in 1944. And then bigger and bigger.
Also try to imagine that instead of 3 years of pursuing slowly various inventions, Germany would set the highest priority for them. Think of the "wonder weapons" making impact in 1943, and not in late 1944...early 1945.

If the picture is not clear enough, remember that in the most important day of the "Battle of England", which was on September 15, 1940, Germany lost a little more over 60 airplanes. In 1944 they produced on average 106 planes every day, all year long.

Remember that the design for the last generation of German submarines, re-made by Great Britain in 1955, started only after mid of 1943, and just one submarine made its maiden voyage in May 1945, to... surrender to the U.K.
If the design would start in 1940, it would be ready by 1943.

And so on... Open for replies.
PM
Top
Florin
Posted on July 16, 2005 06:21 am
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1870
Member No.: 17
Joined: June 22, 2003



QUOTE (Imperialist @ Jul 15 2005, 09:12 AM)
QUOTE (SiG @ Jul 15 2005, 12:20 PM)
..............
United States 41.7%
Germany 14.4%
USSR 14.0%
UK 10.2%
France 4.2%
Japan 3.5%
Italy 2.5%


Yes, but that was in 1937.

Japan succeeded sometimes in 1943...1944 to produce 28,000 airplanes per year.
Germany made in 1944 38,000 airplanes and equipment able to equip 40 Panzer divisions.

Obviously, in the Allied camp not only the U.S. succeeded an outstanding industrial output, but also Soviet Union.
The Soviet industry had an output far bigger than the one to result from your statistics.

PM
Top
SiG
Posted on July 16, 2005 11:18 am
Quote Post


Fruntas
*

Group: Members
Posts: 86
Member No.: 616
Joined: June 29, 2005



Yes, the numbers are from 1937. At that moment, the economy of the US was still afected by the depression, while the economies of Germany and Japan were in full swing. So the differnce between them is actually minimal.
Yes, the Japanese and Germans did produce that many airplanes in 1944, but the US produced 96000 the same year.
Yes, the Germans produced a lot of tanks during 1944, they actually produced more that the US, but that's because the US were allready reducing their wheapons production in anticipation of their victory. They could have produced many more.
You might want to read this page: Grim Economic Realities
It's a comparaison between USA and Japan,a bit off-topic but it gives a good ideea about the economic disparity between US and its adversaries.

You are right about the "Wonder Weapons". The German economy certainly did have the posibility to produce them in significant quantities if they selected the best designs. The problem is that in the real world it's not like in a computer game where you know exactly what you get when you research something. The Germans did not know which new designs would work and which not, so it was hard to decide how to allocate resources.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Jeff_S
Posted on July 18, 2005 05:17 pm
Quote Post


Plutonier
*

Group: Members
Posts: 270
Member No.: 309
Joined: July 23, 2004



QUOTE (SiG @ Jul 16 2005, 11:18 AM)
You are right about the "Wonder Weapons". The German economy certainly did have the posibility to produce them in significant quantities if they selected the best designs. The problem is that in the real world it's not like in a computer game where you know exactly what you get when you research something. The Germans did not know which new designs would work and which not, so it was hard to decide how to allocate resources.

I believe you may be giving the Germans too much credit here. German behavior suggests that they just did not take actually producing their technically advanced weapons seriously. The problem was not that they chose the wrong wonder weapon, over one that was even more wonderful. It is that they did not build either of them. (Those who have worked in engineering organizations can sympathize with this problem. Having a release date or due date focuses the mind). In addition, they continued production of civilian products (private automobiles and grand pianos most notoriously) for far too long.
PMYahoo
Top
Victor
Posted on July 18, 2005 05:49 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4336
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



Let's return to the Romanian war industry, because this was the initial topic.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
PanzerKing
Posted on July 25, 2005 08:15 pm
Quote Post


Sergent major
*

Group: Members
Posts: 216
Member No.: 29
Joined: July 07, 2003



I was just saying that if they had the license for the DB in '43 then why no new upgraded IAR 80 like the one that was succesfully tested!?!
PMUsers WebsiteMSN
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (5) « First ... 3 4 [5]  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0316 ]   [ 17 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]