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Petre
Posted: February 17, 2013 08:03 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ February 17, 2013 06:23 pm)
[QUOTE]'Goltz' Kavalleriedivision - (I can't identify this unit!) cavalry division (German)

From the Net
QUOTE
Nachdem die aus der 3. bulgarischen Armee herausgezogenen Verstärkungen eingetroffen waren, wurde unter dem Befehl des Generals Kosch die Donau-Armee gebildet, zu der die 217. deutsche Infanterie-Division, die 1. und 12. bulgarische, die 26. türkische Division traten, sowie eine aus deutschen, österreichisch-ungarischen und bulgarischen Truppen zusammengestellte Kavallerie-Division unter dem Befehl des Generals Grafen v. der Goltz.

That is something like :
Dupa ce au sosit intaririle trimise de A.3 Bulgara, a fost formata Donau-Armee sub comanda Gen.Kosch, din D.217 Inf. Germana, D.1 si D.12 Bulgare, D.26 Turca, deasemenea o Kavallerie-Division, compusa din trupe germane, austro-ungare si bulgare, sub comanda Gen. Graf von der Goltz.
But nothing here :
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCdiger_..._%28Offizier%29
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Florin
Posted: February 17, 2013 08:04 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ February 17, 2013 01:47 pm)
Florin, here is the link: http://www.miwsr.com/2005/downloads/20050501.pdf

Thank you.
Also my thanks for the inputs posted by "Petre".

This post has been edited by Florin on February 17, 2013 08:06 pm
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contras
Posted: February 17, 2013 08:44 pm
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1) disastrous defeat of the Romanian Army; 2) partial defeat of the Romanian Army, as a significant part of it was saved; 3) operative success but strategic failure of German plans as I understand that the objectives were the total destruction of our army and the occupation of the entire Romanian territory?


I'll put here 3) too, because the strategic goal for Germans was the total destruction of Romanian army. The importance of that goal we could see in next year, when the goal of Mackensen army was occupation of Jassy (Iasi) in two weeks to make the way open into Ukraine. But in summer of 1917 Romanian army could resist to Mackensen offensive.

About "So what", I believe the lenght of the borders to defeat are really important, and we had to defeat a front line larger than entire Eastern Front, and this it was important.
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ANDREAS
Posted: February 17, 2013 09:47 pm
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Petre, thank you again! I was not even able to find the full name of the german General in question (searching the command of German and Austro Hungarian Cavalry Divisions) so your help is welcome!
About "So what" I join the astonishment because to me it seems obvious that with 23 divisions (more then 1/3 of them were cobbled together in 1916 from militia units and other 1/5 inadequately equipped if I'm not wrong!) we didn't have enough forces to cover a frontline so large! Sure our High Command have made ​​major mistakes especially in late august - early september 1916 when we enjoy superiority in Transylvania but... we don't talk about that right now! For the beginning I had in mind an overview of the 1916 campaign reported to the strategic goals of the two sides!
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Imperialist
Posted: February 17, 2013 11:01 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ February 13, 2013 06:55 pm)
Long article, missing a "little" detail: the length of the frontlines around Romanian borders facing the Central Powers was double the length of the Western Front.

Are you talking about the length of the frontlines or the length of the pre-war border? Because after the Romanian Army entered Transylvania the frontlines started to get smaller.

And they should have continued to get smaller but the people in charge panicked and stopped the offensive, throwing everything into chaos.

As for the southern front, why didn't the general staff planners order the units to make an orderly withdrawal northwards into Dobrogea if unable to hold their ground, thus lowering the length of the frontline? Instead they ordererd them to stand their ground. Moreover, if I remember right, in the initial plan they were even supposed to take the offensive into Bulgaria!

I choose 1) disastrous defeat of the Romanian Army. And I think it was mostly the fault of the general staff in planning and executing the war. Maybe Romania would have lost anyway, under great pressure from Germany, but not so quick and not in such a blunder-like way.

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aidan zea
Posted: February 17, 2013 11:54 pm
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As in any army, the units have different quality. I don't know where they were assigned - "those who served in the army during the communist time and some years after".
Aidan, I am one of "those who served in the army during the communist time..." in the mid 1980's - arguable the peak moment for the strength of the Romanian Communist army.
The standard equipment per unit was matching the standard equipment of comparable units from the Warsaw Pact. And in regard to "...those who served ... some years after" Communism, you should think in a reasonable way: all over Eastern Europe was quite a chaos in the few years following 1989 ! For Romanian Army, that meant abandoning all kind of research and developing programs. Many brilliant Romanian engineers involved in these programs fled the country and easily got employment in Western Europe, The United States and Canada.

Off-topic but I must tell you my friend story: A few years before the revolution (1989) his friend was a trooper in a mechanized infantry unit, but was in charge with the maintenance of combat equipment (namely the armored amphibious vehicles TAB in romanian). He said that only one was operational of the 10 vehicles of his company, for training, he was requested at a time, because of a visit of a foreign military delegation to operationalize two other vehicles in just a week! He has managed (with the tehnical NCOs) to operationalize only one vehicle, using parts from the other 8! But there were not big problems, in the end they were handled well with the two vehicles that worked! If that was the general condition in the army then what is more to say?
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aidan zea
Posted: February 18, 2013 12:09 am
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Still those who have read a bit about the pre-war activities of the Evidenzbüro, the a-h (I purposely written with lowercase the name this monstrosity called state!) secret service, and his branch from Bucharest led by major Randa in 1914, does not make any illusions about the "surprise" from august 1916 when Romania entered the war against Austro-Hungary!

Andreas, beyond the misplaced comments about the Dual Monachy which was a more civilized and developed state than was ever Romania, I agree with your statement being known for a long time at the level of political and military leadership of A-H Monarchy the Romanian military preparations of entry into the war! Romanian offensive in Transylvania was therefore no surprise, although military countermeasures taken were not sufficient!

QUOTE
from my point of view, independent of the eventual sarcasm (I could be wrong!) of Aidan post...

:blink: You are wrong I was not at all sarcastic I posted a link of an article published in a Romanian magazine?
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aidan zea
Posted: February 18, 2013 12:15 am
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And, by the way, I also choose 1) disastrous defeat of the Romanian Army being clear that halving of combat forces available in august 1916 after only four months of fightings and loss of two-thirds of the territory including the capital can not be characterized otherwise!
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Florin
Posted: February 18, 2013 12:35 am
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QUOTE (aidan zea @ February 17, 2013 06:54 pm)
QUOTE
As in any army, the units have different quality. I don't know where they were assigned - "those who served in the army during the communist time and some years after".
Aidan, I am one of "those who served in the army during the communist time..." in the mid 1980's - arguable the peak moment for the strength of the Romanian Communist army.
The standard equipment per unit was matching the standard equipment of comparable units from the Warsaw Pact. And in regard to "...those who served ... some years after" Communism, you should think in a reasonable way: all over Eastern Europe was quite a chaos in the few years following 1989 ! For Romanian Army, that meant abandoning all kind of research and developing programs. Many brilliant Romanian engineers involved in these programs fled the country and easily got employment in Western Europe, The United States and Canada.

Off-topic but I must tell you my friend story: A few years before the revolution (1989) his friend was a trooper in a mechanized infantry unit, but was in charge with the maintenance of combat equipment (namely the armored amphibious vehicles TAB in romanian). He said that only one was operational of the 10 vehicles of his company, for training, he was requested at a time, because of a visit of a foreign military delegation to operationalize two other vehicles in just a week! He has managed (with the tehnical NCOs) to operationalize only one vehicle, using parts from the other 8! But there were not big problems, in the end they were handled well with the two vehicles that worked! If that was the general condition in the army then what is more to say?

I believe you and your friend. I do not say this case was an exception.
***
The most important thing for the 1980's was the ability of the Romanian Socialist industry to supply the army with all needed equipment - with some important exceptions, i.e. supersonic airplanes and radiolocation equipment.
In both "missing links" there were research and development programs.
I could see with my eyes how the engineers made trials for a radiolocation station that was finished prototype in 1992 - of course a project continued since the late 1980's. I happened to work in a neighboring factory. As I did my military service in radiolocation, it looked to me smarter than the equivalent Soviet units. Then the project was flushed away, as we started to buy from West.
***
My understanding is that after 1989 the factory that pursued the Romanian supersonic program ended making full scale operational copies of FW-190 for a German marketing firm.
***
From the official TV show of the Romanian Army, that continued in the early 1990's, I heard how they abandoned the laser guided missiles programs (AA and anti-tank) and how the engineers in charge fled to work in the West.
And in that factory where I was young / beginner engineer, the smartest guys there already emigrated - even though they mostly worked for civilian matters.
P.S : Sorry, I know it is off topic, but Aidan deserves an answer.

This post has been edited by Florin on February 18, 2013 12:38 am
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contras
Posted: February 18, 2013 01:07 pm
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QUOTE
And, by the way, I also choose 1) disastrous defeat of the Romanian Army being clear that halving of combat forces available in august 1916 after only four months of fightings and loss of two-thirds of the territory including the capital can not be characterized otherwise!


That is the matter! They needed four months to defeat Romania. Troops from Germany, AH, Bulgaria and Turkey against 23 Romanian divisions, poorly equiped with artilery and machine guns, poorly led by our HQ.
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Florin
Posted: February 18, 2013 02:29 pm
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With the map of Romania in 1916 as reference, I checked in "Google Earth", using "Path", the length of the borders facing the Central Powers.
It was about 1400 km.
60 kilometers per available division...
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Victor
Posted: February 18, 2013 02:40 pm
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The IAR 95 discussion was moved to a different topic. Please stop going off-topic.
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Victor
Posted: February 18, 2013 02:41 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ February 18, 2013 04:29 pm)
With the map of Romania in 1916 as reference, I checked in "Google Earth", using "Path", the length of the borders facing the Central Powers.
It was about 1400 km.
60 kilometers per available division...

A large part of that border was not suitable for military operations.
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Dénes
Posted: February 18, 2013 06:54 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ February 18, 2013 08:29 pm)
With the map of Romania in 1916 as reference, I checked in "Google Earth", using "Path", the length of the borders facing the Central Powers.
It was about 1400 km.
60 kilometers per available division...

Victor is right. In the mountaneous region you have to count only the passes, not the entire mountain chain. This way, the total length surely drops to a fraction of what you've calculated.

Gen. Dénes
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MMM
Posted: February 18, 2013 08:20 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ February 18, 2013 09:54 pm)
QUOTE (Florin @ February 18, 2013 08:29 pm)
With the map of Romania in 1916 as reference, I checked in "Google Earth", using "Path", the length of the borders facing the Central Powers.
It was about 1400 km.
60 kilometers per available division...

Victor is right. In the mountaneous region you have to count only the passes, not the entire mountain chain. This way, the total length surely drops to a fraction of what you've calculated.

Gen. Dénes

...and that fraction was supposed to be "filled" also with our allied Russian Army, as well...
To make it more clear, Florin: what's the point comparing these lengths? It's pretty clear there were different circumstances, different armies, different goals and different tactics. Then why the comparison? Why not compare it to the African war theater, as well?
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