Farman Goliath in ARR service?

It might be. I knew nothing about Berg bombers. But in the Romanian table was written:
Tipul Materialui: Avioane de bombardement
Denumirea: Berg
Nr.: 14 (? - Woj)
Observaţii: Numai 3 sunt in bună stare. Urmează a se declasa.
(Source: Arh. M.Ap.N., Direcţia 8 armament. dosar nr. 248, f. 82-83)

This post has been edited by woj on April 11, 2005 09:26 am

The aircraft were pratically contemporary and both used the same Jupiter radial engine. Maybe the price has something to do with it - do you know if the Polish proposal was cheaper? Maybe it was. Or at least it should be.
Besides, there's another hint in the designation of the aircraft: BN4 means "Bombardier nocturne, quatre places", i.e. night bomber, four seat (crew of four), and, logically, BN3 means "Bombardier nocturne, trois places", three seat - a smaller crew. I just don't know why there was this difference between the two versions which must have been quite similar, but...
I will try to dig more.

Ruy

According to the documents of the Polish General Staff our offer was much cheaper then French.
Now I understand the difference BN 3/BN 4. But F.66 contra F.68? Does anybody know?

Could these be actually Bréguet Bre.14s? But I doubt they were "unusable" as early as 1923.

Gen. Dénes

Here is what I have:

The difference between the BN3 and BN4 versions were described properly.

Gen. Dénes

Gentlemen,

I just got an answer from Mr. Lucien Morareau, a noted French aviation historian, whose main field of interest, besides from the French naval air arm, concerns French aircraft of the inter-war era. lt is a bit disappointing - apparently, the aircraft wasn't devised at all for the Romanian military market, but for the French Aeronautique Navale...

"Proposé à l'Aviation maritime française, le Farman 66 était en fait une cellule de type 65 équipée de moteurs Salmson au lieu des Gnome-Rhône. Les essais comparatifs ne firent pas apparaître de différences significatives et ce modèle d'appareil ne fut pas construit en série. Les deux F.66 prototypes furent affectés à la CEPA en 1925. L'un d'entre eux fut rapidement détruit par accident et le second fut condamné en 1926. Je ne sais rien d'une éventuelle exportation de ce modèle vers la Roumanie."

Translation:
Originally proposed to the French naval aviation, the Farman 66 was in fact a model 65 airframe, equipped with Salmson engines instead of the Gnome-Rhône (note: in fact, Jupiter radials built under British - from Britol - licence by the French firm). The comparative essays didn’t show any significant differences, and this model wasn’t built in series. The two F.66 prototypes were delivered to the CEPA (which means, if I remember correctly, Centre d’Études du Parc Aérien) in 1925. One of the machines was destroyed in an accident after a short stat, while the other was dismantled in 1926. I know nothing about a possible export of this model to Romania.

Well, it seems that no F.66 was actually supplied to the A.R.R. after all...
Besides, the info provided by Mr. Morareau contradicts both the info provided by my friend José Miguel Sales (from an French book on the Farman firm…) and the details found by Dénes: the engines were Salmson, not Jupiters...
I think we must wait for a new book/article on the Goliath family to see this riddle sovled.

Ruy

I have photos of Farman 'Goliath' in Rumania (true, in civilan markings, CV-FAR and C-REGA, but the latter is in military livery).

It would be very nice to sort out this intriguing issue.

Gen. Dénes

As for CV-FAR, it is a civilian transport machine, with a more or less “modern” passenger cabin and a stepped, enclosed canopy for the crew. Can't recall exactly now its correct model name, but I can find it.
I have also photos of CV-FAR, in full civilian livery, but I haven't seen any of C-REGA. Can you please post a low res. version or tell us if the aircraft has an open canopy?
Thanks!

Yes, this is a intriguing and very interesting riddle...

Ruy

These Bréguet aircraft weren't "unusable". In the list from Romanian archives I found:
"Tipul materialului: Avioane de bomardement
Denumirea: Breguet
Nr. 19 (again: ? - Woj; it couldn't be rather Breguet XIX?)
Observaţii: Numai 10 sunt in serviciu. Materialui este uzat. Se păstreăza in serviziu".
No more Breguet aircraft in this list.

This post has been edited by woj on April 11, 2005 06:00 pm

ARR did use Bre.14 B2s, some received shortly after the war. Possibly the last three survivors are mentioned in the list.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Bréguet 19 is the same with Bréguet XIX.

Of course - I know!
But - did ARR use Breguet 19 during years 1923-1924?

ARR did use the Bre.19 in small numbers, six IIRC. Since when - I have to look it up (currently I am at work).

Gen. Dénes

I don't think so. That is a too early date...
The first serial production Breguet XIX's started to leave the assembly line in August, 1922. Back then, the aircraft caused quite a stir in the aeronautic milieu.
It was the first "new" (not a W.W. I left-over) French combat aircraft to sell abroad and briskly so, if I might say! The first foreign order came from the central chinese government - the various warlords that ruled in regions beyond the control of the government also possessed their own "air arms" - in 1924.
According to a relatively recent monograph by Vladimir Kotelnikov on the Breguet biplane (Aviamaster, 4/2001), the A.R.R. got its first Breguet 19's in 1926. Still according to same author, who certainly has drawn much of his info from French sources, these were recon/bombers of the A2/B2 sub-types (50 planes in total). Later on, and still quoting the same article, the A.R.R. ordered the improved 19.7 variant in 1930, also used by Turkey and built under licence by Yugoslavs at Kraljevo.

Ruy

It now appears certain the the Bre.19 was not in service with ARR in 1923. The first units arrived to Rumania probably only in 1930. Also, there is no way 50 pcs. (or 108 pcs., as a French magazine reportedly wrote) were in Rumanian service.

Therefore I'd return to my original theory, the obsolete machines in 1923 were probably the last surviving Bre.14s.

Gen. Dénes

Here's the scan.
The type written on the rudder is F.16_ (last digit illegible).

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 12, 2005 12:15 am

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