Farman Goliath in ARR service?

Did ARR anytime use Farman Goliath bombers?

I don't know if the military used Farman Goliath's, but the CFRNA (Companie Franco-Roumaine de Navigation Aeriene) did use them in civilian transports. After the company ceased to exist in 1924, the airplanes were passed on to LARES, the new Romanian state-owned air line.

Thanks! Do you (or any other member of this forum) know anything about types of bomber aircraft used in ARR in the second half of 20's? I found documents concerning French-built Goliaths which could be sold to Romania in 1927. I wondered if this transaction could be realized.

This post has been edited by woj on April 10, 2005 12:30 pm

Woj,

One example is the Potez XV, also used by Poland. The relative success of this biplane paved the way for the mass-produced and exported Potez 25. I am not aware, however, of heavy bombers being used by ARR in the second half of the 20's. Other forum members certainly know better.

By the way, one of the civilian Farman Goliath used in Romania had the register CV - FAR.

Just a remark: the Compagnie Franco-Roumaine de Navigation Aérienne changed its name to Compagnie Internationale de Navigation Aerienne (CIDNA for short) in 1925. In spite of the fierce competion from other operators, namely German ones, Franco-Roumaine managed to maintain an excellent service record through the 1920's and it ranked itself among the most important European airlines carriers of the decade. By 1925, 50% of the company share was made-up of French capital, while the rest was divided between Romania, Czechoslovakia and other nations (I think Poland too, but I am not sure about this detail). The planes used for the transportation of mail and passengers were Caudron C 61's, Caudron 92's, Spad 56's (the later version with a Jupiter radial - I have two interesting photos of CIDNA's 56's), Farman-Jabirus, Potez 32's and even Dutch-made Fokker F VII's, and Fokker VIIb's. The efficiency of the company was such that one of their slogans (better described as an unofficial name), "Fléche d'Orient", served as a title for an interesting novel by Paul Morand, whose plot is set between Paris and Bucharest!

Ruy

P.S.: Sorry, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I could resist posting this poster from CIDNA (I have a soft spot for 1920/30 graphic design) - from http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.com/

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on April 10, 2005 08:10 pm

Attached Image

Thanks Ruy!

Of course, I know some facts about ARR aircraft in the 20's. But I'm interested in this particular type (Farman Goliath). In addition - I found in the book written by G. Zaharia., C. Botoran., entitled Politica de apărare naţională a României in contextul european interbelic, 1919-1939, (Bucureşti 1981, mention about heavy bombers close to Goliath's characteristics in ARR service: "7 avioane cu motoare "Jupiter 420 H.P.", inapte pentru misiunile de bombardement" (p. 142).

The closest to a dedicated bomber airplane ARR used in the 1920s-1930s would be the Lioré-et-Olivier LeO 20BN3 biplane. The type indeed was powered by two 420 hp G&R 9Ady Jupiter radials, which propelled the bomber to max. 198 km/h.*

Gen. Dénes

* damn, pretty slow, even I did "fly", once, with over 200 km/h on the back of a motorcycle. Probably never again

In the report sent by Polish military attaché to General Staff, dated 1st May 1928 I found mention about 3 Farman-Goliath bombers in ARR.

This post has been edited by woj on April 10, 2005 06:22 pm

Woj and Dénes,

When I posted my message I was thinking of smaller, multi-purpose two seat, single engine biplanes which were mostly employed as light bombers, for reconnaissance duties and army co-operation, a concept later epitomized by the ubiquous Potez 25.
I did mean "light bombers".
As for heavy bombers, Dénes has answered: the Lioré et Olivier LeO 20BN3 fits that category, but perhaps not exactly in the time frame you mentioned, Woj. The flight of the first prototype took place in September, 1926 and the first 50 aircraft ordered by the Armée de l'Air were ready by the end of the year (apparently, no big modifications were needed to jump from prototype stage into production). Many LeO 20 were still in service as night bombers by the end of the Thirties and some were even found in flyable conditions by the Germans troops in 1940.
The aircraft became fully operational at unit level by 1927. The sale to Romania must have happened somewhere during that year or after.
It was an ungainly but dependable machine, in spite of its sluggish performance.

Ruy

P.S.: Dénes, once I also "flew" at a speed reasonably well above 200km/h in the back of a motorcycle and I do not intend to repeat the experience!,

A summary report on the ARR strength, compiled at the end of 1923, mentions 3 existing bombers, "without any value". No type is mentioned. The ARR would have needed 40 bombers at that time.

Could these 3 "useless" bombers be the mentioned 'Goliaths'? I did not research yet the Rumanian aviation of the 1920s, so my knowledge is limited.
Are there any other details also on other airplane types in that Polish intelligence report?

Dénes

According to the article: Rădulescu D. C., Politica militară a statului român între anii 1922-1924, [in:] Din istoria militară a poporului român. Studii. Vol. 8, Bucureşti 1980, p. 50 three bombers "without any value" were Berg aircraft.
I couldn't find more details in the Polish report mentioned in my last post, unfortunately.

Goliaths listed as "useless" in an early date as 1923? I doubt... for the series production of the F.60 bomber version had started just an year before, in 1922. Deliveries to the French air arm started then. Several military versions of the Goliath were built during the Roaring Twenties, being to several nations, including Poland (F. 68 BN 4, with Jupiter radials) and the USSR (F. 62 BN4, with Lorraine-Dietrich radials), among others.

On the other hand, could these three machines - mentioned in the summary report quoted by Dénes - be W.W. I left-overs?

Ruy

P.S./edit: Ok, Woj confirmed my suspicious about the three "useless" aircraft!

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on April 10, 2005 08:26 pm

Woj,

I just called my friend José Sales, who is the lucky owner of an old French book from the Docavia series, on Farman aircraft. He confirmed the existence of a specific variant, specially studied for export to Romania, the F. 66 BN3, fitted with Jupiter radial engines!

Ruy

Here is what I found quickly on the F.66BN3:
"Jupiter-powered variant, intended for Rumania, at least one built".

What does the mentioned French book say: was the type actually delivered to Rumania, or it remained a project ony? If the former happened, how many pcs. were exported and when?

Gen. Dénes

Polish military authorities tried to sell to Romania four bombers in F. 68 BN4 version. I supposed that this type was newer (and better?) then F. 66 BN3. Am I right?

This post has been edited by woj on April 11, 2005 08:48 am

About this bombers ( Berg aircraft ) could be a confusion with Aviatik DI - Berg fighters in romanian service after the WWI .

Dan.