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> Sources on Danube Naval Actions 1944-45
PT Dockyard
Posted: August 08, 2003 11:35 pm
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Soldat
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Can anyone point me to books or websites that would detail operations of Hungarian, Romanian, German and Soviet naval vessels on the Danube during 1944-45. I am specifically looking for:

-Details and pictures of any Hungarian craft
-Descriptions in English of battles
-Use of Soviet "Air Glissers"-small armed boats with aircraft engines. The Romanians captured one in 1941.

I have books covering the Romanian Navy but very, very, very little on the Hungarians. Any help is appreciated.
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Csaba Becze
Posted: August 09, 2003 12:51 am
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Fruntas
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You don't find any English books about Hungarian river forces.
A good Hungarian work Károly Csonkaréti's book (Haditengerészek és folyamőrök a Dunán)
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Wawrzyniec
Posted: August 09, 2003 10:00 am
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Hallo Dave,
Contact me, please:

marwaj@poczta.onet.pl

I could help you a bit.
Greetings from Poland,
Wawrzyniec
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Dr_V
Posted: August 09, 2003 08:53 pm
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The Hungarian Honoved River Force (created in 1922 for river police purposes) :

River patrol vessels:
- Godollo : jan. 1915 Budapest, 60 tons, 11 knots, crew 18, Armor bullet-proof belt, guns: 1x70mm, 1x 1 pounder pom-pom AA, 3 MG.

- 4x Debrecen class ( Debrecen, Gyor, Baja, Sopron) 1918 Budapest, 140 tons, 15 knots, crew 44, guns: 2x70mm, 2MG.

- 2x Szeged class (Szeged, Kcskemet) 1915-16 Budapest, 133 tons, 15 knots, crew 44, guns: 2x70mm, 2MG

Depot ship: Csobank : Budapest 1928, 305 tons, 8 knots, crew 18, no guns

Training ship : Badacsony 10 knots [I don't have details]

3x ML : Honved, Huszar, Tuzer: 17 tons, (?) 1MG AA [have no more details about them]


I have pictures of 4 patrol vessels (Godollo, Debrecen, Sopron, Szeged) and the depot ship. Tell me your e-mail and I'll send them to you.

Dr_V
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Dénes
Posted: August 09, 2003 09:12 pm
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Here you can find more detailed info on the Danube ships of the Honvéd Folyami Erök (although the info is incomplete and sometimes erroneous, but it's in English):
http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/axis-hu-navy.htm

Dénes
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PT Dockyard
Posted: August 10, 2003 01:22 am
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Wow- what a ton of information on my first post. I LOVE this forum. Thanks Wawrzyniec for the drawings and the map! :D

I see that the Debrechen was modified with a German quadruple 20mm in 1944. Were the others in her class also modified in this way?

Also, I note that the armored gunboat PM-1 was in an action in 1944. Were the PM-2 to 6 also built?

Were there any actions between the Hungarian and Romanian/Soviet river flotillas in 1944/45?

Thanks,
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Victor
Posted: August 10, 2003 06:36 am
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Immediately after 23 August 1944, the Romanian river forces entered action against the German vessels which were attempting to retreat on the Danube, attacking Romanian ports on the way. They were reorganized like this:
-1st River Group (NMS Catargiu and NMS Lahovary monitors)
-2nd River Group (NMS Bratianu and NMS Catargiu monitors)
-3rd River Group (NMS Ardeal, NMS Basarabia and NMS Bucovina monitors)
-Dredging Flotilla (19 ships)
-Security Flotilla (7 ships)
-Upper Danube Detachment
-Middle Danube Detachment

The 1st and 3rd River Groups captured between 28 and 30 August: 16 armed tugs, 3 artillery pontoons, a medical convoy, 68 barges. They also blocked German ships in the Calafat (97), Gruia (3),Corabia (27) and Bistret ports (21), where they were seized.

The NMS Sborul torpedo-boat was at Cernavoda on 23 August. On 25 August it sunk a German armed tug and captured 9 supply ships near Harsova.

The Upper Danube Detachment took part in numerous actions, mainly in support of Romanian or Soviet ground forces. It also laid two mine barrages at km. 910-911 and 913-914 blocking two German convoys (about 60 ships), which were scuttled. On 21-22 September it sunk four German vessels near Turnu Severin. After that the Romanian forces were mostly used for dredging, loosing quite a few ships in these actions.

Btw, Dr_V you can see another member's e-mail under his post where there is a button email :D
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Csaba Becze
Posted: August 10, 2003 09:08 am
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Dave,

The Hungarian ships had a lot of new AA weapons in late 1944/early 1945 (and some others).

Between the Hungarian and Soviet ships was not any engagement in Danube.
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Th. Dorgeist
Posted: August 10, 2003 02:05 pm
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Fruntas
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Hallo Viktor,

in sehr vielen Quellen kann man lesen wie viele Schiffe die rumänischen Fluss – Monitore auf der Donau im August und September 1944
erbeutet und / oder versenkt haben.
Ich bzw. vermutlich auch viele andere Leser, habe eine riesig große Anzahl Schiffe mit den Vermerk :
„24.August 1944 im unteren Donaubereich in Verlust geraten“
oder
„Beim Umsturz in Rumänien geblieben“

Wenn man so genaue Anzahlen über die erbeuteten usw. Schiffe hat ist es nicht wahrscheinlich das es Kriegstagebücher und vielleicht andere Quellen gibt wo die Namen der einzelnen Schiffe zu finden sind?

Ich habe, wenn die Namen bekannt wären zu praktisch allen Schiffen, Fahrzeugen, Leichtern und Booten genauere Angaben und würde diese
Jederzeit austauschen und weiter geben.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen


Theo

Hello Viktor,
in very many sources one can read like many ships the Romanian rivermonitors on the Danube in August and September 1944 captured and/or sank.
I and/or probably also many other readers, have an enormous large number of ships with the note:

„ 24.08,1944 within the lower Danube range in loss turn out“
or
„Beim revolution remained in Romania“

If one so details number over the captured etc.. Has is does it sail not probably it war diaries and different sources perhaps gives where the names of the individual ships to find is ??

I have, if the names were to practically all ships, vehicles, lighters and boats more exact data and

this admits would exchange at any time and would continue to give.

Yours sincerely

Theo
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Dr_V
Posted: August 10, 2003 08:11 pm
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Thanks for the tip Victor, but user "PT Dockyard" has no e-mail posted on the public forum. No offence, but i did looked for it.

Regards!

Dr_V
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Der Maresal
Posted: August 12, 2003 03:16 am
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May I ask if Hungary has a navy, however small it may be...?
Hungary is a land-locked country with no access to water or sea, except Lake Balaton the largest in east europe and also the danube where could hungary develop a navy?

* Why was "Admiral" Horty of Hungary named "Admiral", I din't think it has anything to do with Navy...



" köszönöm " :wink: :P
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Geto-Dacul
Posted: August 12, 2003 03:29 am
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Der Maresal wrote :

QUOTE
* Why was \"Admiral\" Horty of Hungary named \"Admiral\", I din't think it has anything to do with Navy...  


During World War I (1914-1918) he became admiral of the Austro-Hungarian navy. He retained this title even after the partition of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, until October 1944, when he was removed by a German coup d'état, for trying to conclude an armistice with the USSR.

Best regards,

Getu'
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Dénes
Posted: August 12, 2003 03:41 am
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Getu's is right: Rear-Admiral Miklós Horthy received his rank while he was enrolled in the Austro-Hungarian Navy. In fact, he was the overall Commanding Officer of the A.-H. Navy from Febr. 28, 1918.
Horthy lead many naval battles, was even wounded in one such battle; however, he stayed in command despite his wounds and lead the battle from his stretcher...
He kept his rank throughout his life.

Dénes

P.S. Seeing that many questions regarding the Hungarian Armed Forces, it would be beneficial if we could open a separate forum, dealing with the Honvédség...
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Victor
Posted: August 12, 2003 05:54 am
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QUOTE
Thanks for the tip Victor, but user \"PT Dockyard\" has no e-mail posted on the public forum. No offence, but i did looked for it.  

Regards!

Dr_V


Sorry. I forgot that what is visible to me, could be invisible to you.
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Csaba Becze
Posted: August 12, 2003 04:59 pm
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Fruntas
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Horthy's last rank was not rear-admiral (ellentengernagy), hi was an ... admiral (altengernagy) the next, highest rank, after the rear-admiral (I don't know the exact English word).

Maresal, maybe it is unbelievable for you, but Hungary had a lot of excellent sailors :D :P
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