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> Soviet Biological weapon, WW2 ~ PRAVDA, Infected rats used to spread disease
Der Maresal
Posted: February 23, 2005 06:32 pm
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http://www.node707.com/archives/003100.shtml

Read the above link, as well as this thick book published by "someone who knows what he's talking about" (" ;) , ;) ")


QUOTE
(IMG:http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0385334966.01._PIdp-schmooS,TopRight,7,-26_PE30_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/038...8156129-4639018


http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0385334966...018#reader-link !

This post has been edited by Der Maresal on February 23, 2005 06:33 pm
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cipiamon
Posted: February 23, 2005 07:59 pm
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QUOTE (Curioso @ Feb 11 2005, 08:43 AM)
First, let's throw away the IHR wares. That's an infamous revisionist organ with a very clear neo-Nazi agenda. So anything coming from there has to be treated as damaged goods.

Thouse guys are not just sitting there plotting propaganda like you think, maby you are a victim of the old jewish anti-nazi propaganda.
If they can suport theyr theory is nothing wrong whit that.
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Curioso
Posted: February 26, 2005 11:18 am
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QUOTE (Der Maresal @ Feb 23 2005, 06:28 PM)
http://cns.miis.edu/research/cbw/tula.htm
Tularemia, Biological Warfare, and the Battle for Stalingrad (1942-1943)
An editorial from Military Medicine, Vol. 166, No. 10, October 2001.

Guarantor: Eric Croddy. MA
Contributors: Eric Croddy. MA: Sarka Krcalova MA

(snip)

Although no doubt exacerbated by wartime conditions at Stalingrad we believe that the tularemia epidemic of 1942-1943 was a natural outbreak. With regard to the high percentage of pleural involvement reported by Alibek (and others) one should note that even in the 1960s the mechanism of the disease process was not well understood nor was it certain if there was a primary pulmonary form of tularemia.[4] The fact that a large percentage of tularemia infections were associated with pleural involvement--an outcome that could have been induced via other portals of entry--may not he very helpful in identifying the route of the initial infection.

Second the Rostov region alone already had 14,000 tularemia cases in January 1942, several months before the major Panzer assault on the city.

(snip)


Got that? The source _you_ quote does _not_ believe that the tularemia epidemic was man-made. Don't you find it comical that you yourself quote a source that demolishes your point?
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Curioso
Posted: February 26, 2005 11:21 am
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QUOTE (cipiamon @ Feb 23 2005, 07:59 PM)
QUOTE (Curioso @ Feb 11 2005, 08:43 AM)
First, let's throw away the IHR wares. That's an infamous revisionist organ with a very clear neo-Nazi agenda. So anything coming from there has to be treated as damaged goods.

Thouse guys are not just sitting there plotting propaganda like you think, maby you are a victim of the old jewish anti-nazi propaganda.
If they can suport theyr theory is nothing wrong whit that.


But they can't. Whenever they write anything, it's full of half-truths, distortions and bald-faced lies. Sometimes there is a truth in there, but since you have to wade through their muck to reach it, it's normally not worth your time.

BTW, don't you have things upside down? The "Jewish anti-nazi propaganda"... You surely meant we should beware of the _Nazi_ _anti-Jewish_ propaganda, right?

This post has been edited by Curioso on February 26, 2005 11:22 am
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Der Maresal
Posted: February 26, 2005 09:29 pm
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QUOTE (Curioso)
Got that?

No not at all -
I put it so we can see the dispute between the Russian head of Biological Weapons program (who knows what he knows) and 'others' who try to find gaps in his story and discredit him.

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Based on past clinical cases and the nature of the pathogen we propose that an outbreak resulting from natural causes is more likely.

read the phrase before that phrase:
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In a recent book, Dr. Kenneth Alibek has suggested that the Soviet Red Army used tularemia (causative agent: Francisella tularensis) as a biological weapon during the battle of Stalingrad (1942-l943).


Everybody had his own conclusion. The big question is: Were Rats used?? (Even if they did not spread disase, even if it occured naturally)

Were the Rats unleased to spread disease? That's what matters - the 'intent'!
Doctor Alibekov confirms it.

So who should we trust? The Chief of Russian Bio programm or the king of Logic? :roll:

Only Russian archives can tell.
(and they are probably not open for everyone to see)
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Imperialist
Posted: February 27, 2005 11:25 am
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QUOTE
Were the Rats unleased to spread disease? That's what matters - the 'intent'!


Well, if the intent is what matters then we know that the Black Plague was a muslim biological weapon used to depopulate Europe and facilitate the Ottoman invasion.
The muslims probably unleashed some contaminated rats in christian ships and the latter sailed home with WMDs on board without even knowing it.

This would actually be a good story... but if you want to turn it into history, you'd need to have some proof, some documents etc. Otherwise it remains just another interesting story.

Following the same logic, I'm waiting for Pravda to say that the harshest winter in Russian history coincided with the German invasion because the Soviets used some kind of weather weapon...
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Curioso
Posted: February 28, 2005 09:40 am
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Fruntas
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QUOTE (Der Maresal @ Feb 26 2005, 09:29 PM)

So who should we trust? The Chief of Russian Bio programm or the king of Logic? :roll:

Only Russian archives can tell.
(and they are probably not open for everyone to see)

Very well. So you quote a competent professional, an author that could rely on modern knowledge and methods, who happens to think you are totally wrong.

On the other hand, we have Alibek, who might have had ulterior motives, could not rely on modern knowledge and methods, and never gave us a bit of factual evidence. You know, something like "Doctor A developed a fesible weaponization on day 00.00.1942, at the B lab, and xxx unit of the Red Army deployed the infected rats at locations C, D and E on day 00.00.1942.". Never seen anything like that.

But of course there are the secret files. Your last resort in many other threads. Secret files in Moscow, secret files in Bucharest - and they would all support your most extravagant claims, but we can't see them, unfortunately. It's a matter of faith, with you.

No thanks. I do prefer logic, or, better yet, undisputable documentary evidence. You can't come to grips with logic and have no such evidence. So you'll pardon those of us who'll think your claims are, to use an euphemism, questionable.
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Curioso
Posted: February 28, 2005 09:42 am
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Fruntas
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ Feb 27 2005, 11:25 AM)

This would actually be a good story... but if you want to turn it into history, you'd need to have some proof, some documents etc. Otherwise it remains just another interesting story.

Following the same logic, I'm waiting for Pravda to say that the harshest winter in Russian history coincided with the German invasion because the Soviets used some kind of weather weapon...

I'm glad you also see on what kind of ground Maresal's tale is built. Thank you.
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