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> Hungarian Air Force vs. bombing raids
Iamandi
Posted: December 16, 2004 09:16 am
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How successfull was Hungary in defence against bombing raids?


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Dénes
Posted: December 16, 2004 02:17 pm
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Excerpt from a manuscript, under work:
According to one of the very few official MKHL documents that survived the war, between April and August 1944, during 626 combat sorties, a total of 111 USAAF aircraft were claimed as destroyed by Hungarian pilots. In turn, 22 Hungarian fighter pilots were killed and 11 wounded in action.
By the end of war, the 101. Fighter Wing performed an additional 105 sorties and added 19 more claims against USAAF warplanes.

As comparison – based on Hungarian sources – the Luftwaffe performed 932 daytime sorties over Hungary approximately in the same time period and achieved 73 confirmed victories, while losing 88 aircraft and suffering 43 pilot casualties.

Comparing the two performances, it appears that the enthusiastic and determined Hungarian fighter pilots were more efficient in combating the daytime air intruders than their German comrades.


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alexkdl
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:14 pm
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Thanks you victor yes I mean HE-111 ..not Dornier...just to jump quickly to an other topic ...perhaps you / Dragos can post additional older photos from the TIDALWAVE era....eventhough they may not be simple to the viewers eyes....in smilar to the one posted by Dragos from the Archives or Museum related to the aircrew member of the SAND-WITCH

Regarding the Lake Balaton air kill I guess the Russian historians confused ARR wit Hungarian AF pilots...though Hungarian didnt have as competent pilots as ARR did and I doubt it if the air kill can be accredited to a Hungarian . Maybe was shot down by AA


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This post has been edited by alexkdl on January 10, 2005 04:14 pm
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Dénes
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:18 pm
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QUOTE (alexkdl @ Jan 10 2005, 10:14 PM)
though Hungarian didnt have as competent pilots as ARR did and I doubt it if the air kill can be accredited to a Hungarian .

And on what source are you basing your opinion on?

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alexkdl
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:33 pm
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Denes , what I meant is that Hungarian AF of WWII didnt have the number of aces as ARR did and their AF wasn't infrastructurally as big as ARR...although they had enough pilots I simply doubt that they brought the exprienced Russian ace down which according to my views could have been the work of a highly experienced pilot such as Cantacuzino ...though as Victor said there could be the possibility of an Hungarian pilot or AA.....I have same date base on the Hungarian AF but is not as detailed and resourceful as ARR

Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on January 10, 2005 04:34 pm
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Dénes
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:50 pm
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Of course the Royal Hungarian Air Force (MKHL) was smaller. And no, they did not have enough pilots (remeber, until 1938, officially there was no Hungarian air force due to post-war restrictions). Moreover, it spent less time on the Eastern Front than the Rumanians, therefore did not have the same number of aces. But your previous note:
QUOTE
I simply doubt that they brought the exprienced Russian ace down which according to my views could have been the work of a highly experienced pilot (...)

simply does not hold ground. See, for example:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1651

Alex, for your previous allegation:
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(alexkdl @ Jan 10 2005, 10:14 PM)
though Hungarian didnt have as competent pilots as ARR did and I doubt it if the air kill can be accredited to a Hungarian .

I award you the following badge:

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 10, 2005 04:52 pm

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alexkdl
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:52 pm
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Denes, out of the known 5 Hungarian AF Aces ,only Debrody (27) and Hepes ( 12) who had some major air kills it couldn't point out towards similarities with ARR , to my opinion the Hungarian AF was rather less operational and not as good equipped as ARR and less infrastructre ....please let me know your opinion...again I reffer to quantity , quality and operational status and not the personal abilities of a known Hungarian pilot who were rather restrained due to the small size of the AF

Al

Posted bellow is the photo of Hepes and Debredy

This post has been edited by alexkdl on January 10, 2005 05:37 pm

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alexkdl
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:55 pm
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Alright Denes, I understand the point though it was not an allegation but rather a remark related to quantity and not the capabilities of a well trained and well equipped Hungarian AF pilot of WWII

Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on January 10, 2005 05:05 pm

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Dénes
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:56 pm
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QUOTE (alexkdl @ Jan 10 2005, 10:52 PM)
Denes, out of the known 5 Hungarian AF Aces (...)

For a list of Hungarian ace pilots, see following link:
http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/ww2hun.htm
I counted 38 aces...

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alexkdl
Posted: January 10, 2005 04:59 pm
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Denes do you have a photos and details of the air kills of Giorgy and Dezso and Toth Lazoj ?

Al
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Dénes
Posted: January 10, 2005 05:09 pm
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QUOTE (alexkdl @ Jan 10 2005, 10:59 PM)
Denes do you have a photos and details of the air kills of Giorgy and Dezso and Toth Lazoj ?

Al

Well, Alex, you listed the (misspelled) Christian (given) names of the pilots, not their family names...

I assume by 'Giorgy' you actually meant György Debrödy with 24+ kills. I wrote a detailed article about him, published in the French magazine 'Avions' (translated into Rumanian and published in Aero Magazin).

Similarly, I believe by 'Dezso', you actually meant Dezsö Szentgyörgyi, the top-scoring Hungarian 'ace', and by 'Toth Lazoj', Lajos Tóth, another top scoring Magyar fighter ace.

All their 'kills' can be found in the book of György Punka, 'Hungarian Ace Pilots of World War Two', published by Osprey, in the UK:
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_deta...e=S4361&ser=ACE
(IMG:http://www.ospreypublishing.com/osp_img/titlecovers/S4361AL.JPG)

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Admin., can you move these few posts in the main thread dealing with the Hungarian Air Force? As co-moderator, I don't seem to have this option.
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Dénes
Posted: January 10, 2005 05:11 pm
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Here is the text from the rear cover of the aforementioned Hungarian book, which gives you a quick snap shot of the MKHL:
Like Germany, Hungary was forbidden from having an air force following the defeat of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the end of World War 1. However, again like Germany, the new state of Hungary created an air arm in secret during the 1930s. Hungarian fighter pilots first saw action against their Slovakian neighbours in early 1939, following the annexation of Czechoslovakia by Germany. In June 1941, Hungarian armed forces joined the Germany in the invasion of Russia, and pilots from the I/I Fighter Group saw continuous action into 1942. Flying CR.42s, Re.2000s and Bf 109Es, pilots scored a modest number of kills. However, when the Bf 109G-equipped Hungarian 101 ŒPuma1 Fighter Regiment was committed to action over Kharkov in April 1943, numerous aces started to rapidly build there scores. One year later the unit returned home in order to defend Hungarian cities from American heavy bombers, and pilots such as Dezsö Szentgyörgyi and György Debrödy scored the bulk of their kills in desperate battles against American fighters and bombers. Unlike most of Germany1s Eastern European allies, Hungary did not capitulate during the Russian advances of 1944, and its fighter pilots fought on until May 1945.

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alexkdl
Posted: January 10, 2005 05:26 pm
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Hello Denes

Thank you , yes I misspelled their names as I have unclear data base on HUAF nor is one of my strengths ...I did buy however from osprey the BF 109 aces on the Western Front and German aces in the Russian front and I gonna buy the HUAF book too now, thank you
Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on January 10, 2005 05:34 pm
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