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> Allied equipment intended / send to Poland
Iamandi
Posted: January 03, 2005 12:24 pm
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At bottom of this post is a fragment from a polish forum. I have two questions:

1. What equipment was intended - send for Poland (from France, UK)? I found - by this time - some like a squadron of Hurricane. You guys, are knowing more?

2. I underlined some text. Comments?

Iama


"Mytzu, the explanation will not be pleasant for you... but hey - this is history...

As you know, Poland and Romania were making a lot of business in 1930s. But in 1939 Romania was slowly swaying on the Germany side... when the war broke out and we were loosing the battle, there was an agreement that was to allow Polish air force to regroup in Romania, take new planes - reinforcements sent from Britain and France, that were heading to Romanian ports - and strike back at the German-Soviet invaders. But Romania changed its mind (sometime around 15.IX.) and ships were turned back. When Polish planes landed on 17-18.IX., they were illegally seized by Romanian authorities, the Polish personnel was interned. There were many failed attempts to get those planes back - even if it meant buying them back from Romanians! Fortunately, we weren't really hostile towards each other and Polish soldiers and airmen managed to escape to France, to fight on.
Here's a great site listing many Polish airplanes used by Romania during the WW2:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/airplanes.htm" (Rola)
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woj
Posted: January 09, 2005 02:16 pm
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QUOTE (Iamandi @ Jan 3 2005, 01:24 PM)
At bottom of this post is a fragment from a polish forum. I have two questions:

1. What equipment was intended - send for Poland (from France, UK)? I found - by this time - some like a squadron of Hurricane. You guys, are knowing more?

2. I underlined some text. Comments?

Iama[/quote]

Hmmm... Below you can find fragment from original cypher telegram from FO to sir H. Knattchbull-Hugessen (Angora). Text was dated 18th September, 1939, 11 p.m. Need further, more detailed data?
Woj

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Iamandi
Posted: January 09, 2005 03:06 pm
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Thanks. For a time i say "oh, Woj dont see this topic" ... :D Thanks, again.

And, ignoring this, were other intended ships? Because is not so much in...

You know something about the second part of my message? That underline?

Iama
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Dénes
Posted: January 09, 2005 07:03 pm
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Very interesting document, Woj.
What happened eventually to those British warplanes? The Rumanians did not get them...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 09, 2005 07:03 pm
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woj
Posted: January 10, 2005 07:18 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ Jan 9 2005, 08:03 PM)
Very interesting document, Woj.
What happened eventually to those British warplanes? The Rumanians did not get them...

Gen. Dénes

OK - first some additional data - summary of British transports sent to Poland (see below)
...and then reply...
"On 1 July Rayski [chief of Polish mission to Britain, former commander of Polish AF - Woj] reported that no progress had been made in discussions concerning the purchase of materials for Poland. He further complained of the general unhelpfulness of the British, and quoted the example of having failed even to obtain a clear answer to the enquiry as to the calibre of the British artillery. He finally pointed out that all decisions were being made conditional on the outcome of the financial talks which were proceeding at the same time. The most urgent Polish request was for aeroplanes. Thus at a meeting which took place at the Air Ministry on 30 June, provsional agreements were reached concerning the purchase of 14 Hurricane fighter planes and 100 single-engine Battle bomber planes. The Polish delegation was neverthless warned that '[the supply of the above is dependent upon the amount of credit or loan to be granted by the Treasury'. [...] The Poles, who considered themselves to be the next most likely object of German aggression in Europe, protested at the fact that their requests received no prioirity. Rayski reported that their proposals were dealt with without any sign of urgency and were udistinguished among a number of applicanons fronm Bulgaria, Greece and other countries." [A Prazmowska, Britain, Poland and the Eastern Front 1939, Cambridge 1987, p. 124]
What happened with the planes?
1. Hurricanes - were offered for Turkey and then... I found two versions:
a/ transport came back to Britain, most of "ex-Polish" Hurricane figters (10) was sold to Finland in February 1940 (according to Andrzej Morgała)
b/ planes was unloaded in Gibraltar - then used by British squadrons in Near East (article "Spitfire over Poland" by W. Matusiak, "Aeroplane 1/1996, and - by the same author - an article published in "Militaria i Fakty", 1/2003)
2. Spitfire (serial nr 281, RAF nr - L1066) - purchased by Turkey
3 Battle bombers - offered for Turkey, probably with no success.
Additional information: http://www.historia.icenter.pl/psh/faq.php?id_cat=17

Woj

This post has been edited by woj on January 10, 2005 08:31 pm

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Iamandi
Posted: January 11, 2005 07:04 am
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Woj, you have strong information, man! Thanks for sharing them with us!

Iama
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woj
Posted: January 11, 2005 01:41 pm
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QUOTE (Iamandi @ Jan 11 2005, 08:04 AM)
Woj, you have strong information, man! Thanks for sharing them with us!

Iama

Thanks. ;) For Romanian members (but not only) should be unteresting list of British priorities (The Deputy Chiefs of Staff, 5th July, 1939):
"List C. For air armament
France, Egypt, Turkey, Poland, Holland, Yugoslavia, Portugal, Iraq, Greece, Rumania, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Belgium, Hungary". :)
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Ruy Aballe
Posted: January 12, 2005 06:19 pm
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Egypt as the 2nd country in the list?? I am always amazed at this list, no matter how many times I look at it... it makes for a very interesting discussion topic on its own! I remember it from its first appearance in published form in the Iberian Peninsula, in an an interesting book by Eng. Mário Canongia Lopes, "Spitfires e Hurricanes em Portugal", Lisboa, Dinalivro, 1994 (ISBN: 972-576-099-9). When I got it, I was impressed not only by the text itself (which has been updated by the author in several articles published afterwards), but also by the sheer amount of original Portuguese and British documents made available to the reader, both in quoted form and also as fac-simili.
Hungary got the last place, by the way... :roll:

Ruy
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Victor
Posted: January 12, 2005 06:50 pm
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Egypt was under British control and controlled a vital communication line with the Asian colonies.
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Ruy Aballe
Posted: January 12, 2005 08:37 pm
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Obviously Victor, but the place granted in the list to Egypt was mostly symbolic: they got old aircraft mostly. Their fighter force relied on the Gloster Gladiator because it was supposed that the R.A.F. would provide the needed assistance in case of need, of course.
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woj
Posted: January 12, 2005 08:57 pm
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QUOTE (Ruy Aballe @ Jan 12 2005, 09:37 PM)
Obviously Victor, but the place granted in the list to Egypt was mostly symbolic: they got old aircraft mostly. Their fighter force relied on the Gloster Gladiator because it was supposed that the R.A.F. would provide the needed assistance in case of need, of course.

But there was some projects (and even talks) to buy modern aircraft in Poland just before the war.

This post has been edited by woj on January 12, 2005 08:57 pm
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Ruy Aballe
Posted: January 12, 2005 09:09 pm
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Didn't knew. Interesting... Mewa? P.24?? Or just liasion aircraft like the R.W.D. 13?

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on January 12, 2005 09:11 pm
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woj
Posted: January 13, 2005 11:11 am
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QUOTE (Ruy Aballe @ Jan 12 2005, 10:09 PM)
Didn't knew. Interesting... Mewa? P.24?? Or just liasion aircraft like the R.W.D. 13?

I wrote - modern. P.24 was obsolete even from Egyptian point of view. In the Polish project (kind of informal proposal...) you could find: P.37, P.46, "Mewa", RWD-13,17,21 (main list), or more (there was wider - additional list - with 17 types of Polish aircrafts and gliders).
Woj
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Iamandi
Posted: January 13, 2005 11:47 am
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About Mewa, Woj, you know how many of them were oredered by Bulagaria, and how many for Egypt?

And a bit more.. off topic: who was the best? Mewa or IAR 39?

Iama
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Ruy Aballe
Posted: January 13, 2005 05:14 pm
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Woj, maybe the P.24 was obsolete by the then, but it was better than the Gladiator anyway... ;)
Still, the Polish industry couldn't supply any really modern fighter by that time, so that's why I mentioned the P.24. The Bulgarians were still waiting to receive a later model (J) when the Germans invaded Poland.
I would like to hear Woj's opinion on the last question placed by Iama, though I do think that the I.A.R. 39 had an archaic conception when compared to designs like the "Mewa" or the Henschel Hs-126. But it was a sturdy dependable aircraft according to what I've read about it, and it provided good services to the A.R.R. On the other hand, it had an ancient pedigree, so to say: the Potez 25. The I.A.R. design shared the same general wing design and structure, with modified (rounded) tips. Anyway, it is always quite difficult to compare the merits and weaknesses of aircraft with very different destinies: one was cut short by the German invasion of Poland and it never saw active service or combat; the other was produced in sizeable numbers and was used in real, combat situations. :ph34r:

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on January 13, 2005 05:15 pm
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