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> Ural bombers vs. Ural factories
Florin
Posted: April 20, 2005 05:02 am
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ Apr 19 2005, 01:38 AM)
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Germany had a type of plane which made an experimental flight, starting from Europe, and crossed the Atlantic, reached as far as 20 km from the shore of New York, then returned to Europe, without refueling. In a word, twice the width of Atlantic without refueling.


They had a plan for that kind of plane, but it never flew.

When I'll have time, I'll try to double check this.
If the results will contradict you, I'll answer. If I'll not be able to offer something on the contrary, I'll not answer at all, and automatically you'll have the last word.
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Imperialist
Posted: April 20, 2005 07:31 am
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QUOTE (Florin @ Apr 20 2005, 05:02 AM)

When I'll have time, I'll try to double check this.
If the results will contradict you, I'll answer. If I'll not be able to offer something on the contrary, I'll not answer at all, and automatically you'll have the last word.

OK, but I overstated with "it never flew".
I mean I dont know for sure, it might have flown during testing in Germany (though I doubt that too), but I know for sure that it never flew 20km off New York.
Thats some kind of legend.

take care
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Imperialist
Posted: April 21, 2005 11:58 am
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QUOTE (Ruy Aballe @ Apr 19 2005, 12:29 PM)
Gentlemen,

Two aircraft could do the job, but both were simply "too late":

- Ju 390

- Me 264

As for the Russian high-altitude fighters, their development started also as an answer to high-altitude, strategic reconnaissance flights performed in a state of relative impunity by the Germans since as early as late 1939, using especially modified aircraft and/or prototypes. Interestingly enough, the MiG OKB continued to develop high-performance, high altitude fighters (some w./pressurized cockpits) right up to the last stages of the war, with impressive results, the ultimate MiG high altitude fighter prototypes being the I-224, fitted with a large-chord four blade propeller to improve performance at altitude, and the superb I-225(5A), with a max. speed of 730km/h at 8.520m. This means that the Russians were always worried by high-altitude raiders, either bombers or recon birds.

Ruy

Ruy, from my modest research, the main German bombers used to attack Britain were Do215s, Do17s and He111s.
On the D0215s, the data I've found says that only 101 were built, and the last delivery was in January 1941. So its production apparently was desisted after the Battler of Britain.
However, using official RAF data, the number of Do215s destroyed by the British exceeds 150 in the first 3 months of the battle.

Even if there are small differences due to approximations or erroneous combat reports, is it true that the Do215s production ceased after the Battle of Britain? I mean is that bit of info accurate, if the others might not be?
Also, what were the main bombers used by Germany in Russia?

I've read that the soviets transferred to the Urals and even Siberia about 1,360 large factories.
If the Soviet cities became devoid of industry, the only role the german bombers could have had was city-busting, but I doubt they had the numbers for that kind of operation to be effective.

take care

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Ruy Aballe
Posted: April 21, 2005 12:45 pm
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Well, the planes I mentioned never progressed beyond the prototype stage, hence the use of the expression "too late". However, both had the autonomy needed to reach targets well deep into the Soviet Union. Their vulnerability to fighters is another subject, though.

The Do-215 was used also as a dedicated reconnaissance platform and this applies to the Eastern Front too. The aircraft was born as an export venture, but the course of events in the first stage of the war prevented the shipment of the first ready Do-215's to Sweden (where eventually a local equivalent was designed, using the same aerodynamic layout, the SAAB B.18 series...) and the batch was impressed into service by the Luftwaffe.
The R.A.F. data you quote, concerning Do-215 losses, concerns, most certainly the radial-engine Do-17Z, not the D.B., in-line engine Do-215...
Incidentely, the Do-215 was also used by M.K.H.L., four machines being supplied by the Germans to their Hungarian allies in 1942 (these aircraft fulfilled reconnaissance duties in the ranks of the Hungarian air arm).
As far as I know, the Luftwaffe keep using the Do-215 until 1942. The night-fighter version soldiered on until early 1944 with II/NJG-1, but that's another story.
The Germans continued to use the same basic bombers in the Eastern Front: the Do-17Z, the He-111 (on the verge of obsolescence by then...) and the ubiquous and versatile Ju-88, in multiple versions. This bomber force was adequate for conducting a short (at least, this was the original intention) campaign, fought rather at a tactical than at a strategic level.

The Russians, on the other hand, had an adequate strategic, four-engined bomber, the Pe-8, but its production was reduced to only 93 machines because the H.C. attributed the highest priority to what was called in Soviet terminology "frontal aviation", i.e. single-seat, single-engine fighters and twin-engined bombers capable of tackling the tactical demands of the war in the East.
If you are specifically interested in the Do-215, I can provide more data.
Yours,

Ruy
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Florin
Posted: April 22, 2005 04:44 am
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From "Ostfront: Hitler's War on Russia 1941-45", by Charles Winchester:

April, 1944: One flight from Odessa to Mukden, Manchuria bringing to the Japanese 4 tons of detailed optical equipment and bringing back a consignment of molybden.

From "Der Japanfug", by Peter Herde, printed 2000:

Flight: Rome - Tokio - Rome, leaving Rome June 29, 1942 and returning July 20, 1942. "El Duce" Mussolini was at arrival airport "Guidonia".

Flight: Tokyo - Singapore - Sarabus - Berlin - Tokyo, leaving Tokyo on June 7, 1943, but disappeared over the Bengal Gulf. No enemy action involved.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Long range planes:
Ju-390. Range of 6,000 miles.
Me-264 Range of 9,315 miles , endurance of 45 hours.
He177 A5/V38 Range of 8000 kilometers.

PS: About that flight: Europe - 20 km from New York - back to Europe.
I learned about it on www.feldgrau.net It seems it was in the first half of 1944.
I was not able to re-discover the topic. In the topic was mentioned the exact day of the flight, the type of the plane and the book being the source of the information.

This post has been edited by Florin on April 22, 2005 05:05 am
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Imperialist
Posted: April 22, 2005 09:43 am
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QUOTE (Ruy Aballe @ Apr 21 2005, 12:45 PM)

The Germans continued to use the same basic bombers in the Eastern Front: the Do-17Z, the He-111 (on the verge of obsolescence by then...) and the ubiquous and versatile Ju-88, in multiple versions. This bomber force was adequate for conducting a short (at least, this was the original intention) campaign, fought rather at a tactical than at a strategic level.

The Russians, on the other hand, had an adequate strategic, four-engined bomber, the Pe-8, but its production was reduced to only 93 machines because the H.C. attributed the highest priority to what was called in Soviet terminology "frontal aviation", i.e. single-seat, single-engine fighters and twin-engined bombers capable of tackling the tactical demands of the war in the East.
If you are specifically interested in the Do-215, I can provide more data.
Yours,

Ruy

Thanx for for that very interesting info Ruy.

No, I'm not interested in a particular plane, but more on the production and deployment numbers.

I was reading a vintage book, published in the 70s about WWII, and the disappointing fact is that the author gives the raw numbers of planes the Luftflotte used in the east, but it doesnt give their type, not to say anything about name.
Actually this happens in most of the books I;ve read, even regarding the Battle of Britain. The authors just give the rough totals without differentiating between types and capabilities, as if the planes were potatoes or something...

So its a big blur about how many bombers there were in the east, in what missions they were used or from what bases.

Ofcourse, I'm not asking you for those numbers or details, but for the big picture, if you have it. How large a role were the bombers (not the dive-bombers) assigned in the east at the start of the campaign? 1/3 of the whole force? 1/4?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 22, 2005 09:43 am
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Florin
Posted: April 23, 2005 01:45 am
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About He-177, the German strategic bombers, with 4 motors coupled in pairs in 2 nacelles:
It is good to remember that all versions of He-177 were produced in about 700 pieces, which may not be a lot, but is neither a little. Also, most of them were used on the Eastern Front, and not in the West, as it may be expected.

QUOTE (Imperialist)
So its a big blur about how many bombers there were in the east, in what missions they were used or from what bases.

Ofcourse, I'm not asking you for those numbers or details, but for the big picture, if you have it. How large a role were the bombers (not the dive-bombers) assigned in the east at the start of the campaign? 1/3 of the whole force? 1/4?

Try to follow the "Luftwaffe" group of topics, in www.feldgrau.net
Browsing the hundreds of topics may bring any answer you need.

This post has been edited by Florin on April 23, 2005 01:51 am
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Huck
Posted: May 09, 2005 09:19 pm
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QUOTE
About He-177, the German strategic bombers, with 4 motors coupled in pairs in 2 nacelles:
It is good to remember that all versions of He-177 were produced in about 700 pieces, which may not be a lot, but is neither a little. Also, most of them were used on the Eastern Front, and not  in the West, as it may be expected.


This is an often repeated error. He-177 was a 99.99% Western Front plane, where it saw action mostly in antishipping role, helped by its enormous payload/range capability. It also served during Steinbock raids against England in first half of 1944. There were however plans to use it on Eastern Front to knock out Soviet powerplants.

Jeschonnek successor made clear in late 1943 that he will pursue strategic long range strikes as long as they could be made cost effective. Carpet bombing against Soviet industry located in the Urals were ruled out because Germans knew that such strikes were not effective from their own experience with Allied strategic bombing campaign. The only plan considered potentially effective was to employ precision strikes (using guided bombs) against the Soviet powerplants.

For this task KG1 began conversion to He-177 in early 1944, and started combat trials deep into Russian territory in early summer. A few "full effort" 100 He-177 long range raids were flown for a month or so, with no losses (conventional bombing was used; most likely the bombers flew without escort). By that time the situation on the front was becoming catastrophic, and 4 engine bombers operations were soon cut short. The remnants of KG1 began conversion to Me-262 in later summer, to form the famous JG7 jet fighter unit.

It is true that He-177 was a true "Ural bomber", with its 3000kg/5500km capability, although most German mediums could carry unmodified a small 1000kg load for almost 3000km (but having potential for much more, if required).
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mr.bluenote
Posted: June 19, 2005 01:45 pm
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QUOTE (Florin)
An example: MiG-3, in the moment it flew over Moskow at parade, as prototype, was the fastest plane in the world: faster than Spitfire, faster than the Me-109. Its Russian made motor was more powerfull than the Rolls-Royce Merlin of the Spitfire, and more powerful than the Daimler-Benz of the Me-109.


Hmm, your statement regarding the MiG-3 is true with some modifications, Florin! The Spit (mk1) flew at between 350-360mph, while the MiG-3 flew at some 320mph at ground level. Its speed increased as it gained altitude, though, but at "normal" levels the Supermarine Spirfire - even Mk1, would outfly it. The later marks would outfly the MiG-3 at any hight! While you are right that the Mikulin V12 was more powerful than the R-R Merlin II (1350 hp vs. 1013hp), please bear in mind that the R-R Griffon produced a whopping 2050hp.

Furthermore the V12 engine of the Me-109, the DB 6-something - produced 1350hp, which is equal to Mikulin's output. The Me-109 topped at nearly 390mph, which at most hights is more than the MiG.

Talking about engines, I believe that the Mikulin AM-35 was not used for, or canibalized, the IL-2 Shturmovik, rather the MiG-3 was adapted - unsuccessfully, for the AM-38 - I think it was - engine used for the Il-2, because Frontal Aviation had priority regarding both engines and planes. It was also attempted to use a bigger radial engine, but that was unsuccessful as well, so the whole scheme was dropped and the MiG-3 phased out.

In regards to the MiG-3's usefullness as an interceptor. To the best of my knowledge the MiG-3 was armed with nothing more than machine guns two of which were light MG's if memory servs me right. The be truly effective against bombers - as seen in the BoB - the intercepting aircraft needs to be armed with cannon.

It's also important to consider the great expanses of the USSR and the scattered nature of the moved factories, or industrial clusters if you will. The VVS - Red Army Air Forces -had a relative poor 3C&I, which mean that they could not hope to protect all of their factories, if any, from air attacks.

That said and done, I find it very hard to believe that the Germans were able to field a strategic bomber fleet sufficient in size to matter. Bombers were bloody expensive and used fuel and resources like nothing else. Had the leadership of Luftwaffe planned differently from the get-go - say, 1935 - things might have been different, but as of September, 1939, it was more or less to late to develop a startegic bomber force. A series of He-177's and a few He-277's were built, though, but contributed little - other can catching fire and getting shot down. I btw believe the range of the disastrous He-177 was around 6,000km and the He-277 - the true four engined version - was about 7.000km and the payload somewhat bigger than 3 tons.

Best regards!

- Mr.B.

This post has been edited by mr.bluenote on June 19, 2005 01:47 pm
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Kiwi
Posted: December 30, 2008 10:09 am
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The Ju-89 had been intended before the war as a true Ural bomber, but with the death of General Weber, Udet convinced Goering to cancel the Ju-89 project.

The Ju-89 Ural bomber
(IMG:http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/Ju-89flying.jpg)

The third Ju-89 was completed not as a bomber, but as an airline transport, the Ju-90. From the Ju-90 V5 prototype the wing design was changed and by the Ju-90 V11 prototype the aircraft became the four engined Ju-290 transport. There were plans to develop the Ju-290 into a bomber for the Japanese, but Japan would not allow them to overfly the Soviet Union because Japan feared provoking war with Russia.

The aircraft intended to bomb New York and then ditch in the sea was the FW200 Kondor, but that plan never happened.

Italy also planned raids on New York in 1943 by four engined Cant flying boats.

QUOTE
They had a plan for that kind of plane, but it never flew.


Not true Imperialist. the six engined Ju-390 first flew at Bernberge in August 1943 and the Me-264 even earlier. The Me-264 required an unreasonable 2,400 metre runway, but it did operate from Petsamo in Finland after September 1943 and flew test flights from Lechfeld before this and later in 1944.

The Ju-390 performance was better than 6,000nm

The Ju-390 could fly with 10,000kg to New York and back from Brest in France. The mission was flown in January 1944. These are the Ju-390 performance details:

Dimensions:
V1 Fuselage 31.1 metres
V2 Fuselage 34.4 metres (112 ft. 2.5 in)
Height 6.89 metres (22 ft. 7 in)
Span 50.3 metres (165 ft)
Wing area 254 m² (2,730 ft²)

Weights
Gross MTOW 75,500kg (166,448 lb) / 80,500kg (post May 1944)
Design payload 10,000kg ( 22,046 lb)
Empty 36,900kg ( 81,350 lb) / 31,900kg (after May 1944)
Fuel Weight 28,600kg ( 62,995 lb) 10,500 US gal / 39,740 Litres
Consumption Cruise 275 US gal /hour (1650 litres/hour) @ 1800 rpm

Speeds
Max Cruise 272kt (505 kph)
LR Cruise 232kt (430 kph)
Landing speed 66kt (122 kph)

Runway performance
Take off distance at Gross weight 550 metres (1,833 ft)
Landing distance at Gross weight 510 metres (1,700 ft)
Aircraft Classification Number 7.5 ACN @ Gross weight
Estimated Single Wheel Load 8,389 kg ESWL

(the Ju-390 had 6.5 ACN runway load at Gross weight equivalent to a modern Bombardier Dash 8-100)

The Ju-390 had amazing fuel performance at slow speeds, but this degraded with speed or altitude. The Ju-390 was intended to carry two piloted Me-328 parasite fighters, one under each wing to attack New York to make up for it's slow speed. Eventually RLM decided in July 1944 that the wings were not strong enough to carry two fighters. The Ju-390 project was cancelled in September 1944 after two prototypes were flown.

Range @ maximum cruise speed (272 kt) 2,800 nautical miles ( 5,194 km)
Range @ long range cruise speed (232 kt) 7,400 nautical miles (13,760 km)

The Nazi strategy was all wrong. If Ju-88, or Do-17 aircraft been used in the dive bomber role to take out rail bridges and railway lines from the Urals, they could have achieved the same results as with bombing factories. The Nazis could have done this quite easily from the Crimea which they held until early 1944.

The Nazis could have also disabled fuel shipments north from Astrakhan to starve the Soviets of fuel for their tanks and fighters.

This post has been edited by Kiwi on December 30, 2008 10:39 pm
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Kiwi
Posted: December 30, 2008 10:36 pm
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I went to Photobucket and uploaded some pictures so that I could display them here. They are from the personal collection of Ret.Oblt Erich Sommer Versucksverband Obd.L

These disclose Karl Gartenfeld and Wolfgang Nebel disembarking with an SS officer from Ju-290 T9+FK at Sarabus in 1943 as a reception committee for the Tachikawa Ki-77 aircraft expected to arrive from Singapore.

Hauptmann Karl Gartenfeld Obd.L:
(IMG:http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/HptGartenfeld.jpg)


Oblt Wolfgang Nebel Obd.L (left foreground) with Lt Gotz:
(IMG:http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/ObltNebel_LtGotz.jpg)

Lt Horst Gotz later became the second operational Arado 234 jet reconnaissance pilot flying long range reconnaissance over Britain and later the commander of 1.(F)123

These were all fairly high powered people in the business of long range reconnaissance to be visiting Sarabus in 1943.

This post has been edited by Kiwi on December 31, 2008 12:19 pm
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Victor
Posted: December 31, 2008 08:41 am
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Kiwi,

We have a clear policy on posting images. Sources like "my computer" or "the Internet" are not good enough. Thank you.
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