Targul Frumos Battle May 1944, Targul Frumos Battle May 1944

I know what the Soviet/Germans say. I too have the book but what about Romanian records? Know the 8th SS was in western Romania after the switch. People I talked to didn't know of any SS divisions around and I stayed in Roman as well.

Sorry, RHaught, but your question made no mention of Romanian records. You asked:

I don't have any romanian records from that period handy, but it seems to me that the existence of military Soviet and German records indicating the presence of the SS "T" division constitute a more reliable source than what veterans around Roman recall.

Anyway, sorry I couldn't be of more assistance. Perhaps someone else from the forum (maybe Victor or Dragos) have copies of Romanian military records dating back to the time of the Tg. Frumos battles.

Take care.

RHaught,

Here is a Romanian secondary source with respect to the SS T division.

Excerpt from Constantin Kiritescu's Romania in al Doilea Razboi Mondial:

"The Germans had control of two armored divisions - under the command of General von Manteuffel - behind the romanian fortified lines. The GrossDeutschland and the 3rd SS Totenkopf divisions were initially assembled west of the Siret River. Although weakened from previous engagements, the two divisions still held sufficient combative force. Their intervention was decisive against the Soviet attack conducted in the Pascani - Ruginoasa area.

Thanks! Now with the maps I have and the books along with other sources it looks like the next time I come to Romania will be able to track along in an SUV. The primary roads then on the maps are secondary roads at the most today. boonicootza, what are the rates for getting a rental 4WD vehicle in Iasi?

I don't know any rent-a-car company with 4wd cars in Iasi.
For the other cars the price is from 20 to 60 Euro per day.

Hmmm, since I saw some of the primary roads on the maps we looked at there I am going to say they might be a little rough. One looked like an old dirt road starting to grow up. Think that this might make it more accessable to areas as well.

hello,
congratulations for the forum! are a user daal'italia and information on the Battle of tg.frumuos.you have wrote a lot of things interesting.I propio my in-laws live near the front line (Icusesti)
you have news about the clashes that occurred in this place?
just go to see my father in law "the question you!
enclose another map of the area.
sorry for my bad enghlish!



This post has been edited by Hansen on November 12, 2009 10:09 am

NEW ! The first battle for Targu Frumos, 9-12 Apr.1944, on a russian site

This battle is known to us as part of Tirgu Frumos offensive of The 2-nd Ukrainian Front (April 8 - May 6, 1944), but the material on it, unfortunately, is not so much.
Western sources attribute it to the first Iasi-Kishinev offensive operation (April 8 - June 6, 1944) and divide into 3 battles :
The first battle for Tirgu Frumos (9-12 April),
The battle from Podul-Iolaiei (12 April),
The Second Battle for Tirgu Frumos (2-8 May 1944.),
assuming that the result of the operation was a victory of the Axis.
The first battle for Tirgu Frumos was characterized by a brilliantly conducted counterattack of The Panzer-Grenadier-Division Grossdeutschland. What was such brilliant is hard to understand - our position and supplies have been stretched because of bad roads, but the Germans managed to bring troops in time by railway. Well managed, yes.

http://wiki.sukhoi.ru/index.php?title=%D0%...%BC%D0%BE%D1%81

http://ludipopina.free.fr/Targu.html

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Fi...hinev_Offensive

http://www.tkinter.smig.net/Romania/Refere...Storm/index.htm

A translationion of the text from wiki.sukhoi.ru :
It is a kind of analisys for http://www.yogysoft.de/Bessarabia_2.htm

This post has been edited by Petre on March 03, 2011 07:24 pm

The 3rd Dive Bomber Group could not have taken part in the fighting since it was abandoning its aircraft in Crimea at that time. It's the 6th Dive Bomber Group.

On Wikipedia, the story is now much complete and continuously modified by users' contributions. Here they wrote : 1st Air Corps (5th Bomber Group, 8th Assault Group (Hs 129), 9th Fighter Group). Maybe somebody can help there with some posts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_T%C3%A2rgu_Frumos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle...C3%A2rgu_Frumos

I see that the losses are given as unknown.
In Krivosheev's reference work on Soviet combat losses, the figures must be given.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 05, 2011 05:45 pm

Very interesting, Petre, thank you for your effort.

I cannot help noticing that, in spite of the actual action reports done by the military, the news agency reported continuous advancing and teritorial gains for the Soviets.

From a book of memory :
Ivan Konev : "The Front Commander Notes"
Cpt.5 The Uman-Botoshani Operation.
There are some aspects about the circumstances and the conditions of the battle of Targu-Frumos :

Of all the operations, described in this book, the most difficult was the Uman-Botoshani. The history of warfare don’t know a wider and operationally complexe operation, which would be performed in a land with no roads and spring floods of the rivers …
......
Particularly alarming situation was in our neighbor left - 3rd Uk.F. who left far behind.
......
Stavka of The High Command demanded from me an offensive along the Dniester river, to the south, to Kishinev... As for the west, Stavka indicated me an offensive with minor forces.
I presented to Stavka the action plan…
The main strike supposed to apply in the direction of Bolotino, Targu Frumos, Roman, Bacau to take the line Radauti(?), Falticeni, Targu Neamt, Piatra, Bacau…
Stavka approved and on April 7 in its Directive recommended me to regroup west of Prut the 2nd or 6th (Sov) Tank Army. Unfortunately, this recommendation could not be performed because the 2nd and the 6th Army at that time had no tanks...
Stavka ordered me April 8 to perform the offensive operation of the 40.A and 27.A with the immediate task to go to the river Siret….
Perform tasks in accordance with the last Stavka Directive was clearly unaffordable for the 2.Uk.F. If at the right wing still were the possibility for an attack, in the center due to the lack of tanks, ammunition, due to the stretching of the rear, the artillery support, the troops fatigue, the operation must be stopped. We needed a break.
About this, being at the Gen.Rotmistrov Army HQ, somewhere in the Targu Frumos area, I reported by HF radio an opinion to Stalin.
I reported that our troops have exceeded all their objectives, have advanced with fights 320-400 km on field with no roads and in incredibly difficult circumstances. Being tired and having a stretched rear, they can't continue to actively carry out tasks; in addition, the left neighbor is very far behind, so all the enemy that is in front of us, throws only against the 2 Uk.F. troops. A respite is needed.
I suggested to shift to defence.
Stalin endorsed the proposal.
- That is right - he said. Shift to defense and bring the troops in order. As for further tasks, with special orders.
The Directive of Stavka on May 6, 1944 confirmed the shift to defense.
So, in late March - early April, the 2nd Uk.F. troops which entered the territory of Romania till the line Radauti, Ogreev, Dubasary, went on defensive.


This post has been edited by Petre on September 26, 2011 06:57 pm