"What-if"...

[PanzerKing]

Lets say:

It is 1941, Germany realizes that Romania's tank arm is severly weaker than their own and needs modernizing. They make a deal with Romania, similar to the arms for oil programs, so Germany gives Romania 250 Pz IIIs, 150 Pz IVs, and 150 Stug IIIs in exchange for oil. Germany also promises that they will help provide replacements and spare parts so Romania's armored corps are pretty much the same strength all the time, around 400-500 vehicles.

How would this have effected the war? Would having 3 capable armored divisions at Stalingrad have made a difference? I do know this, 400 good battle tanks would have been a hell of a lot better than a bunch of 37mm armed toy cars.

Thanks! Make it interesting!

[mabadesc]

I can't say if it would have made a difference at Stalingrad. In my opinion, Stalingrad was lost due to poor strategic and tactical planning on the part of the German High Command and Hitler himself.

With regards to your "What if..." scenario, I think you touched a good point. As allies, Germany should/could have helped equip Romanian troops much better than they did. Instead, Romanian troops were forced to fight with old, obsolete equipment, and they still performed well, in my opinion.

Even in this equipment shortage situation, however, I think that the Romanian Army would have performed even better if German Commanders hadn't interfered constantly in field operations. Romanian CO's were much more familiar with the way their own troops behaved in battle (logically) and would have obtained better results with their Romanian armies.

Unfortunately, although polite and civilized, German officers repeatedly tried (and often succeeded) in overriding orders given by Romanian CO's. They considered Romania more as a subordinate rather than as an ally, and I think this produced unfavorable results for both sides.

[PanzerKing]

Well with Stalingrad, I was thinking maybe Romania wouldn't have had to retreat so far if they would have had something to fight back with. Maybe the incirclement would have never happened or maybe wouldn't have been so bad.

That's interesting that Romanian Co's were interferred with so much, I never really thought about it.

[inahurry]

So an extra 400 hundred german tanks available for the Romanian army sometime in 1942. Couldn't hurt. Well, it would have hurt the Russians a bit.

But I don't think the Germans could supply them, they had problems with their own supply and the german tanks were constanly technically inferior to the russian in the first years of the war.

The only solution was licensing to Romanians for a reasonabl price and with full technical support so the Romanian industry can roll out the tanks quickly. But I don't know if let's say less than 2 years (end of 1940 - middle of 1942) was long enough for an industrial programme of that complexity.

I think much more anti-tank guns (75mm or 88mm) delivered to the infantry units could have proven more valuable at Stalingrad.

I agree the OKW strategy there was faulty so with better equipment the defeat might have been less severe but still a defeat.

[luer]

I agree on the point that Germans were just simply unable to supply any significant number of tanks at this point, their resources were completely overextended due to their complete underestimation of Soviet military power.

I think that even the Czech tanks / licences for Czech tanks the Romanians asked for (CKD 7.5 ton, 37mm; T-21, 47mm) wouldn't have made a huge difference at Stalingrad (they would have made a difference, albeit not a decisive one during the offensive before, I guess). Also, adequate AT gun power wouldn't have done much difference. I say that because I am of the opinion that Stalingrad was such an enormous strategic error that it was bound for catastrophe anyway. German forces at the flanks of Stalingrad would have equally crumbled under the Soviet onslaught like the Romanian, Italian and HUngarian forces did. Germany was only succesful in putting the blame on her Allies, thereby masking the real reasons for the defeat: German errors, German arrogance, German fatal strategic misinterpretations.

just my two €cents... l.

[Geto-Dacul]

inahurry wrote :

QUOTE

So an extra 400 hundred german tanks available for the Romanian army sometime in 1942. Couldn't hurt. Well, it would have hurt the Russians a bit.

The problem was also when they were delivered... Germany delivered some Pz III's and IV's in October-November 1942... The new Romanian crues hadn't the time to learn adequately to manoeuver the tanks. So 400 just before the offensive... :wink: But its clear that the Romanians being in defensive, this would have facilitated their task. And also, at Stalingrad, oil was rationed, and the Germans tooked many oil from the Romanian motorised units.

[PanzerKing]

No I said 1941, let's make it before Barbarossa while we're at it. The Romanian tank crews would have had plenty of experience by now.

[88mm]

:!: My opinion is that at Stalingrad the front line held by the Romanian 3d & 4th army was so stretched, that even an armoured division equiped with Pz III and Pz IV woulldn't make a big diference. A well organized defence in depth whit AT guns (like the 75 and 88mm) is another story, only if the German Army had the intention to retreat.

[tjk]

It seems to me that you are wanting to trade 3 German panzer divisions for 3 Romanian armored divisions, since you are wanting to take 500 tanks from German production and transfering them to Romania. Since the better overall equipted Germans could not stop the Soviet offensive what makes you think the Romanians would have ? Plus the Romanians would have to develop a supply and repair system to keep the tanks operational. Did the Romanians have that capability ?

[88mm]

Just one division and I was the adept of for AT guns to be supplied and not Pz.

[dragos]

The problem is that not only more/better equipment was required. The troops were too spread out. To effectively defend the assigned lines, at least a double number of units was required, not to speak of mobile reserves. The lines would have been broken in face of any decent assault supported by armor.