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> Abwehr vs. NKVD, All about spies and their missions
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Posted: October 23, 2004 05:53 pm
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Which one do you think was the best?
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Iamandi
Posted: October 24, 2004 12:11 pm
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Abwehr it was a "spy service", and NKVD was a "politicaly police" (*) - represion service... Maybe Abwehr vs. GRU is more like.


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^All^
Posted: October 24, 2004 04:40 pm
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thanks, but the Abwehr was the Werhmachts Inteligence service, and I've read that a section in the NKVD was doing the same thing as Abwehr.
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GEKADOS_SS
Posted: November 02, 2004 02:48 pm
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Abwehr(Amt Auslandsnachrichten Abwehr)-was repr. all the espionage-counter-espionage services of the army.At the begining of war the Abwehr was counting 15.000 titular agents dispersed in more then 500 areas of the world,and 60.000 informers.
-So they were very good informed :) -

N.K.V.D.-Norodnii Komisariat Vnuterih Del(The Peoples Commissary for Domestic Affaires)
-So N.K.V.D. and Abwehr can't be compared cause the line of activity was different-

NKVD's roll changed in a different direction during the war.They were left alone,to do whatever possible to keep the russian pessents under control,and to punish every traitor how helped the nazzi's.So they gained a very bad reputation soon;they were often compared with the german SS trups for their cruelty.

The NKVD soliders and the Komissars of Propaganda were the most hated russian soliders by the germans.

"The Victory is salvation!"

This post has been edited by GEKADOS_SS on November 02, 2004 11:28 pm
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udar
Posted: November 24, 2004 01:12 pm
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I think both services(Abwher and NKVD/KGB-GRU)was very close as eficiencie.Abwher action quite well against soviets before the begining the war,and in the first part(with Fremde Heree Ost part of Abwhere,lead by gen.Reinhard Gelhen)and against allies(take the D-Day plan from UK embassy from Turkey).Russian intelligence was to effective to:have couple strong spy agents in Germany(red chappele and Lucy organization),and especially in western allies countries(both UK and USA),from where stoll the atomic bomb secret,and other agents from that period(Harolld Philby for example)ocuppied in cold war period high function in secret services or scientific organizations.I believe russian was first and germans very close.British was next,but far from this two.
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udar
Posted: November 25, 2004 12:27 pm
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And,sorry i forgotten one of the best spy of russians,Richard Sorge.Thanks to him and the info who give to GRU,SU can bring a lot of siberian division in defence of Moscow,defeate the germans and change probably the entire curs of eastern war.
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^All^
Posted: January 23, 2005 09:34 pm
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one of the best spy of russians,Richard Sorge.Thanks to him and the info who give to GRU,SU can bring a lot of siberian division in defence of Moscow,defeate the germans and change probably the entire curs of eastern war.

Corect! But the russians used those divisions at Stalingrad. From what I know the Japanese had to strike the SU's south border at the same time the Germans launched their atack on Stalingrad.

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Victor
Posted: January 23, 2005 10:15 pm
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^All^, do not use deragatory terms such as Japs or Nips.
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^All^
Posted: January 24, 2005 05:56 pm
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K, sorry I didn't knew.
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Petre
Posted: December 03, 2014 06:13 pm
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From the book of V.Udylov "The Counterspy's notes"
The soviet military counterintelligence already knew about the existence in Romania of secret deposits with weapons, explosives and radios.
The counterintelligence of 3rd. Ukrainean Front, some time ago, had managed to capture the deputy chief of Abwehrgruppe 201, lieutenant Bidermann.
Some short fragments from his interogatory :
Q : In the last statement you sayed that, as official member of «Abwehr-2», you had mission to set up some special deposits in the romanian teritory. Specyfi for us, what was stored there and with what purposes they were set up ?
A : Following the Germany defeat in winter 1943–1944, the political situation in Romania, an ally of Germany, became instable. It became evident, Antonescu was basing just on an insignificant minority. The germans were expecting, at the moment when the mil.actions reach the romanian teritory, this will try to get out of war from the german side.
I dont know what sources of «Abwehr-2» pointed that british agents from «Intelligence Service» and «Secret Service» had activated in Romania a subversive movement against the germans and were conducting its work for prepairing a coup. For this reason, «Abwehr-2» activated its own actions against Romania, mainly to set up stealthly some deposits whit weapons on the romanian teritory and to form clandestine groups, in case if Romania tryes to get out of war, to initiate an internal uprising.
Me, together with leut. Ponter and leut. Kurtius, were sent in Muntenia region to a amenaja the deposits. To travel unimpeded by country I had a document showing I am diplomatic courier of the embassy…
They sent for me, from Wien in Romania, 600 automatics with 12 cartridge boxes. In the meantime, Ponter set up three deposits where the weapons were put.
In May, the Red Army units reached Romania, thats why «Abwehr-2» was taken to create conditions for actions of the diversion groups, in case of a retreat. The purpose of the deposits changed. They were serving now to arm the diversionist groups who will acţiona in Romania after the retreat of the german troops. So, the deposits were completed with explosives and other materials. In three deposits, near weapons and amunitions, they put 40 boxes with mines, three boxex with infernal devices and some radios.
Q : Where are the places of each deposit you pointed ?
A : One deposit was amenajat aprox. at kilo 132 on the road Bucarest to Brăila; an other is north-west of Buzău and the third is in the area Turnu-Roşu Pass (the place where Olt river cross through Carpaţi Mts.).
The counterintelligence workers had checked what Bidermann pointed and seeing those were true, they confiscated by night the content of the deposits, placing nearby hidden surveillance posts. The «Ceka-men» supposed, sooner or later some people will come at this deposits of weapons and amunitions. They were right. Night of nov. 19-20, 1944 at two deposits they came some people. But the soviet soldiers, being as guards in these sectors, opened fire too soon; it followed a shooout. But, thats the war, necunoscuţii had their esscort, who started shooting from behind to the soviet soldiers, the people who came managed to disappear and at the fight place they remined only the shovels. There was reason to think those people were of Petraşcu-Schmidt Group.

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Florin
Posted: December 04, 2014 03:30 am
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QUOTE (Petre @ December 03, 2014 01:13 pm)
.................... the people who came managed to disappear and at the fight place they remined only the shovels. There was reason to think those people were of Petraşcu-Schmidt Group.

Can you detail a little about the "Petraşcu-Schmidt Group" ?
I do not remember to be mentioned before on this website.
Thanks.
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Petre
Posted: December 04, 2014 01:03 pm
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It is the author's style, it was not really a group
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Din dispoziţia lui Horia Sima, conducător al întregii mişcări legionare clandestine a fost desemnat N.Petraşcu, care a zburat cu grupul din 9 nov 1944. Scopul spionajului german şi al gardiştilor era acelaş - reunirea tuturor forţelor reacţionare din România...
...  în compunerea grupului de spionaj-diversiune trimis în România a fost inclus şi maiorul german Andreas Schmidt, cunoscut sub pseudonime Titze şi Moldovan. Oficial, misiunea lui era să înfiinţeze în rândurile etnicilor germani din România o rezidentură de informaţii. Cum spera spionajul german, Schmidt putea face asta uşor, pentru că trăise mulţi ani în oraşe din România, ştia perfect româneşte şi, important, fusese multă vreme liderul Grupului etnic german. În al doilea rând, dar nu mai puţin important pentru Schmidt, el avea sarcina să controleze modul de desfăşurare a detaşamentelor clandestine de legionari şi acţiunile lor...
Lansarea paraşutiştilor s-a dovedit nereuşită. Paraşutat în noaptea 6-7 nov 1944 în raionul Alba-Iulia, primul grup s-a împrăştiat pe un teritoriu mare. Diversioniştii nu au reuşit să se adune la un loc, fiind nevoiţi să-şi găsească adăpost singuri. Dar principalul, se pierduse Georgescu, radistul grupului...
Petraşcu şi Schmidt au sărit cu al doilea grup în noaptea 9 noiembrie, între Alba-Iulia şi Vinţul-de-Jos. După trei zile, în locul stabilit ca variantă de rezervă a avut loc întâlnirea dintre Schmidt şi Petraşcu. Ultimul era furios....  pierderea lui Georgescu cu staţia radio...
... la serviciul român al siguranţei din Bucureşti se afla învinovăţit mai sus amintitul Georgescu. La interogatoriu acesta a arătat că în momentul capitulării României, făcea parte din grupul de informaţii român condus de maiorul de informaţii Balotescu. Balotescu servea ca radist la contrainformaţiile A.8 germane ...
Serviciul Siguranţei românesc l-a predat pe Georgescu organelor sovietice de contrainformaţii SMERŞ. Date despre trimiterea pe teritoriul României a grupurilor de cercetare-diversiune au fost primite de organele SMERŞ şi din alte surse.
...  Schmidt fusese multă vreme rezident al informaţiilor germane în raioanele Bucureşti, Sibiu, Ploieşti şi putea să încerce să se folosească de alţi agenţi-radişti, care să fi fost lăsaţi de organele fasciste de informaţii pe teritoriul României, după capitulare. Probabil că Schmidt îi ştia.
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Florin
Posted: December 05, 2014 01:39 am
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When the Cold War started, in late 1940's, the U.S. suddenly realized that her network of spies in the countries of the Warsaw Pact was non-existent . . . zero !
So they enlisted former leaders of Abwehr and SD, employing them in the American OSS.
These "recruits" reactivated their former networks, for their new master.
That included Romania, where the German minority survived as non-displaced ethnic group (compared with Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia).
Retirement was not an option - for the former German agents that wanted to quit, other people were sent under disguised reasons just to kill them.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 05, 2014 01:40 am
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Dénes
Posted: December 05, 2014 07:01 am
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QUOTE (Florin @ December 05, 2014 07:39 am)
That included Romania, where the German minority survived as non-displaced ethnic group (compared with Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia).

You're kidding, right? Thousands of German ethnics - men, women, even teenage ones - were rounded up post war and taken to the Soviet Union for hard labour. Others were persecuted by Rumanian authorities. Many changed their names to avoid unwanted attention. And so on.
DeadCat, whom I have not seen here for long, perhaps can tell more.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 05, 2014 07:02 am
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Petre
Posted: December 05, 2014 12:34 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ December 05, 2014 01:39 am)
U.S. suddenly realized that her network of spies in the countries of the Warsaw Pact was non-existent . . . zero !
So they enlisted former leaders of Abwehr and SD, employing them in the American OSS.
These "recruits" reactivated their former networks, for their new master. That included Romania...

Again the book :
CODE
... la încheierea războiului, pe 1 mai 1945, la staţia radio ... pe adresa lui Petraşcu, aflat încă în libertate, a venit o radiogramă de la Horia Sima, care i-a alarmat pe cekiştii sovietici.
Se putea înţelege că Horia Sima nu pierdea vremea degeaba, încercând să treacă de pe corabia germană ce se scufunda, pe o alta mai sigură – vaporul englezesc. Se simţea că ceva paşi practici reuşise să facă.
«Noua situaţie nu modifică poziţia noastră, rămânem fermi. Nicio îndoială în succes. Victoria va fi a noastră. Lupta creştinească este importantă şi pentru europeni. Englezii îi vor pe radiotelegrafiştii noştri. Este recomandabil să îi satisfacem, dar să dăm numai oameni de încredere».
(...)
Nici spionajul american n-a rămas în urmă. Doar că ei, recurgând la încercări de a crea în Balcani o reţea proprie de spionaj, au preferat să folosească serviciile spionilor germani, care intrau în rezidentura lui ...
La 7 mai 1945, ... a primit prin radio de la centrul de informaţii german ordin să îl cheme la locuinţa sa pe ... pentru o convorbire radio, iar pe 8 şi 9 mai, pe numele său au venit următoarele două mesaje :
« 1. Urmare schimbării situaţiei, gazdele încearcă să intre în contact cu americanii pentru o activitate comună de organizare a rezistenţei în România. Aceasta se face cu acordul lui Horia Sima. Dacă primiţi telegrame de la gazdele noastre, să ştiţi că ei se află sub controlul americanilor. Informaţiile ilegale de la gazdele noastre vor fi semnate "Gigantul". Acum misiunea constă în trecerea noastră contra Uniunii Sovietice şi nu contra anglo-americanilor. Pe această cale sperăm să menţinem şi să continuăm activitatea...
2. Locul nostru de activitate a fost ocupat deja de americani. Încercăm, cum ne-au informat deja, să ne executăm activitatea cu ei. Este nevoie urgentă de materialele care interesează pe anglo-americani. Pentru activitate se încearcă înfiinţarea aici a unui centru clandestin... »
Peste 25 zile, pe 4 iunie 1945 reprezentantul informaţiilor americane, dintr-un motiv anume, a hotărât singur să ia legătura cu rezidentura germană din Bucureşti. (...) a fost transmisă următoarea radiogramă:
«După ce sunt îndepărtate toate obstacolele refaceţi legătura obişnuită».
La indicaţiile cekiştilor ... a răspuns la radiogramă... A doua zi radistul necunoscut a transmis :
«Din motive tehnice şi alte cauze legătura se întrerupe până la 9 iunie ».
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