When Romania buys its next M.B.T. which should be?

I found the poster from "Viata Armatei" - it is... a modernization of TR 125. TR125 is not romanian up-dated T-72? Scanner is in secretary biro - and this is bad. But, now i write the artcle, in original:

"In urma unui program de studiu realizat de firma Krauss-Maffei cu specialistii romani au rezultat trei variante de modernizare a tancului romanesc TR 125. Aceste variante nu au nume, ci doar indicative si difera intre ele prin complexitatea elementelor de modernizare propuse pentru aplicare. Varianta B2.4 este purtatoarea celomr mai ample si radicale modernizari, iar caracteristicile estimate ale acestui tanc il propulseaza in elita tancurilor moderne.
Le prezentam pe cele mai importante:
masa gata de lupt - 56,1t; echipaj - patru militari; capacitatea rezervoarelor exterioare; puterea specifica pe sol - 0,90 kg/cm2; viteza maxima pe sosea - 70 km/h; viteza maxima in teren framantat - 35-45 km/h; bataia maxima eficace a tunului la trageri directe - 1500m; unitatea de foc - 42 lovituri cuplate cu tuburi -proiectil combustibile; motor - MT883 Diesel, in patru timpi cu turbosuflanta, cu putere maxima de 1103 kw, cu moment maxim de 5000Nm si consum specific de 221g/kwh.
Armamentul principal va adopta calibrul de 120 m.m. si va avea teava lisa.
Armamentul secundar va fi o mitraliera cal. 12,7 m.m.
Tancul va dispune de sistem de stabilizare a armamentului principal, aparatura de vedere pe timp de noapte si prin termoviziune, sisteme de ochire, de protectie si de conducere a tencului dintre cele mai moderne."


Iama

If someone want to translaet in english.. is my guest. This is the original article - i dont know what no. of the "Viata Armatei" - i have only the poster.

The TR125 is a modified T-72. It has extra armor in the front a more powerful engine and different road wheels. Very few were actually produced, 3 prototypes if I'm not mistaking.It would be nice if we would already have it instead of the TR-85M1's but as a replacement I don't like it.

The cannon is too small. I should be at least 125 mm. The upcoming Russian T-95 has a 156 mm cannon.

The engine is too small; it only has 850 hp, which ironically is less that the original Tr-125 engine which had 880 hp. The hp to weight ratio is very bad 15.7hp/ton. Even the Tr85-m1 has a better ratio of 17hp/ton in a situation where modern battle tanks all have over 20hp/ton.

And again so few were produced that we'd have to build the tanks from scratch so if we have to start from zero we might as well come up with something good.

P.S. Please post the poster if you have it.

This post has been edited by Radu on November 11, 2004 04:50 pm

The TR125 is a modified T-72. It has extra armor in the front a more powerful engine and different road wheels. Very few were actually produced, 3 prototypes if I'm not mistaking.It would be nice if we would already have it instead of the TR-85M1's but as a replacement I don't like it.

The cannon is too small. I should be at least 125 mm. The upcoming Russian T-95 has a 156 mm cannon.

The engine is too small; it only has 850 hp, which ironically is less that the original Tr-125 engine which had 880 hp. The hp to weight ratio is very bad 15.7hp/ton. Even the Tr85-m1 has a better ratio of 17hp/ton in a situation where modern battle tanks all have over 20hp/ton.

And again so few were produced that we'd have to build the tanks from scratch so if we have to start from zero we might as well come up with something good.

P.S. Please post the poster if you have it.

Radu,
The TR-125 has a 125mm gun, it has good fire power. How many TR-125's were really built? and if only a handful were built, why? did Romania go through the trouble of Development. TR-125 if upgraded would be relatively cheap effective Main Battle Tank. If Romania proceed with the excellent TR-2000 M.B.T.

Thank You

Very little is known about the TR-125 because it never entered service so it hasn't been battle tested like the Tr-85. It is however safe to say it wasn't much better than the T-72 because the changes made to it were really not that radical (like the Polish PT-91). Why it never entered service it's hard to say maybe it didn't perform as expected or maybe it was too expensive or maybe the army realized that the difference between a TR-125 and a regular T-72 was negligible. The proposed 'new' TR-125 is outgunned and out powered by the best MBT's is service today and by the new generation of MBT's around the corner that's why we should stick to a modern design like the TR-2000.

This post has been edited by Radu on November 12, 2004 07:33 pm

My understanding is that the T-95 is more of an assault gun/self propelled heavy artillery vehicle rather than a tank.

It's a tank currently being tested at the Uralvagonzavod plant in the Urals. It should have entered service in the late 90's but the Russians lacked $$$$.

This post has been edited by Radu on November 13, 2004 09:43 pm

I voted for TR-2000, becuase I believe it best choice overall for Romania to purchase. It is said to be an excellent tank and everyones knows that the Germans design the best tanks in the world! And it would built in Romania.

TR-2000 is not even on the Drawing boards... it was just an concept that will never happend ... and despite the intention we are not capable to do that kind of complex tasks. The money sum needed for such a project is quite large. Unless we want to have some crappy tanks like TR-85, which was OK in the 70's maybe. When WP block switch from T55 to T72 we didn do that..so we had only a hanfull of T-72.

Our ONLY chance will be to develop some spare parts for a foreign build and design tank, what ever that will be. Leopard 2 A6 looks to be what we might need, assuming that we have the money for it.

Maybe a "colecta publica" for new MBT, aircraft, helicopter, etc... Some like "Dati un leu pentru tancul meu..!"

Iama

Hmmmm! I think i find the right solution for new aqusition...

Like that would work:) ... we are talking here on billion dolars amounts

A good and long enough campaign can give us what we need.

Iama

tomcat1974
You stated that Romania should purchase the Leopard 2-A6, I'am sure that the TR-2000 would quite similar the Leopard 2-A6. Since the TR-2000 is itself a varient of Leopard family. Why? should'nt Romania build it's own major weapons systems. It will cheaper to build the tanks in Romania, then to buy them directly from Germany. Germany has already given license production rights for the Leopard 2 to the Sweden and Switzerland.
Also the public fund raising idea good help, it will not fully fund production, but it can be of great help.

This post has been edited by Stephen Dabapuscu on January 06, 2005 07:14 am

What would be the purpose to do that. We are talking about Capitalist economy. Assuming that we Buy a licence. What can we do with it after we produce let say 300 Tanks. We are not capable to marked a damn thing (see IAR99).. SO we will have a big ugly plant that will not produce a damn thing. We are not capable to mantain truck production more over complex MBT. Any way it is a very long way from drawing board to a actuall tank.Not many countries are capable to do so. We just can't.
Can you think about the costs of designing and building and testing(is one thing to do acceptance test and a different to test a new design and then accept it into the AF). It is cheapper to buy them and produce some parts and the ammo(that might be problematic also APFSDS need special technology transfers ..meaning more costs )

Public fund... hmm allow me to have a different opinion... we are talking about Billions of dollars here. Our Defense Budget was a little over one Billion.

This post has been edited by tomcat1974 on January 06, 2005 08:43 am

I believe too is the best idee to build our tanks here.Is not necesary to build a new plant who produce only that tank.We have plants,who produce tractors or tracks,and who will be able to build tanks too.And we benefits the modern technology too.And the nomber of tanks who is need for us,conform with NATO and ex Warsaw Pact acord on begining of 90`,is more than 1000,1400,if i remeber corectly,not just 300.Just think about in case of war(i hope will not to be the case),how will be replace quicly the loses(tanks and ammo,or other weapons category),if you dont have such posibility in your country?Israel dont haved that option in 1973 war,and need a strong help from US.You ar sure we will have this help in case of war?I dont think sow(see the problems with Bastroe channel and border with Ucraine).

My god.... we are no longer producing Tractors and Trucks.They where old tech factories that where not profitable anymore. There is quite a BIG difference from making truck and making Tanks. There is a need for special tools , special alloys , special ceramics, etc.
That number is maximum allowed for Romania by European dissarmament treaty. We are allowed to have 100 attack(not gunship) helicopters .. we have none ...
The number is not realistic for our army to have modern tanks. Heck the M1A1(not the upgraded one , just the old M1 with 120mm smoothbored gun) is considered to cost 2.5-3 million USD.
Rarelly the Tanks are destroyed beyond any capabilities to be recovered . tanks are usually recovered and repaired.