Which new helicopter should Romania select?

IAR produces now the only helicopter design it has: the IAR 330 Puma, in different versions: VIP transport, Medevac etc. Last year they delivered a couple of them to Cote D'Ivoire, refurbished several EAU Pumas etc. The contracts were obtained through the partnership with Eurocopter.

Well the one from Cote d'Ivoire are no longer usable ... French airforce knocked them on the ground.

Victor,

Forgive me, if I'am wrong; but I believe that IAR also builds the EC-135 under license form Eurocopter, amongst few other designs. Why? are the EC-135 or related EC-635 not being purchased to to replace the old IAR-316 Alouette's.

Thank You

The several EC-135s that the police has aquired last year were not produced in Romania and IAR, at least at the moment, does not have the license.

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_m...defense1298.htm

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_m...e=0301civup.htm

I think are better now without that contract. Look at this article:



TDN Exclusive: Turkey Re-Launches Troubled Helicopter Competition


Source: Turkish Daily News

"Six international bidders obtain tender documents for the multi-billion-dollar contract for an eventual purchase of 90 attack helicopters New program involves an initial off-the-shelf purchase of 10 choppers; later, some critical subsystems, including the mission computer, electronic warfare suites and weaponry are to be installed on the remaining 20 platforms locally Some international heavyweights in the market may abstain from bidding because of too much local content.


ANKARA, Turkey --- More than eight years after Turkey kicked off its ambitious program to co-manufacture dozens of attack helicopters for its Army, procurement officials in Ankara are almost back to square one.

The “lost years” saw extended bickering with a leading U.S. helicopter manufacturer and wrangling with the Pentagon over technology transfer.

When Turkey originally launched the chopper program, it faced two options: first, buying a few dozen helicopters off the shelf and simply operating them, and, second, co-producing the systems and in the meantime gaining key technological capabilities for its defense industry. Turkey has ended up with neither.

Ankara is now once again inviting international defense contractors to a fresh bidding for the helicopter gunship business, but in the best case it may take another decade before the Army operates a strong fleet of attack helicopters.

Turkey's defense procurement office, the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM), on Feb. 10 released a long-delayed request for a proposal, or a detailed bidding document, for the attack helicopter program. Turkey asks contenders to submit their bids by June 10.

The 30 gunships are expected to cost anywhere between $1-2 billion, with Turkey eventually planning to buy some 90 helicopters.

Six foreign contractors have already obtained the tender document. Potential bidders are the U.S. Boeing, maker of the AH-64 Apache; the U.S. Bell Helicopter Textron, with the AH-1Z; the U.S. Sikorsky Aircraft, with an armed version of its S-70 Black Hawk; Europe's Eurocopter, maker of Tiger; Italy's Agusta, maker of the Mangusta A129; and Russia's Moscow Helicopter Plant, maker of the Mi-28 Havoc.

In the event Turkey, as expected, lifts procurement restrictions against South Africa soon, the country's helicopter manufacturer Denel, maker of the Rooivalk, is also expected to join the competition.

Officials said the new program involves an initial off-the-shelf purchase of 10 choppers. Later, some critical subsystems, including the mission computer, electronic warfare suites and weaponry are to be installed on the remaining 20 platforms locally.

One key matter is Turkey's insistence on indigenously developing and building those critical subsystems. Many analysts say some international heavyweights in the market may abstain from bidding because of “too much local content and related complications” for the program.

“There are problems particularly for American companies,” said one analyst. “As Turkey can remember from its previous and collapsed chopper program, the U.S. government, for its own reasons, doesn't allow for assembling too many locally-produced subsystems on U.S.-designed platforms.”

“And secondly how Turkey in the years to come will be able obtain a capability to develop, build, integrate and operate the subsystems it intends to make locally and assemble on purchased platforms is not clear at all.”

In the now-defunct program, Turkey in 2002 selected Bell Helicopter Textron for contract negotiations for co-production of 50 AH-1Zs.

But after four years of talks that failed to produce reconciliation on price and technology transfer, Ankara altogether cancelled the program last May and opted for fresh international competition.

One reason why the talks collapsed with Bell was related to the mission computer, a device integrating a helicopter's electronic and aviation systems. Citing obstacles in U.S. export regulations, the Pentagon did not allow Turkey to install a nationally-designed mission computer in a U.S. helicopter.

But Turkish officials say that gaining the capability to locally manufacture the mission computer and many other subsystems is critical to the development of a stronger defense industry.

The government has already ordered the Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TUBITAK) to begin work to develop the mission computer. TUBITAK will receive some $30 million in R&D money for the process.

“The American position is clear on the issue, but Turkey is still is insisting on a local nature for the mission computer,” said one industry source. “In addition there are other major critical subsystems Turkey wants to manufacture itself. So, it will be very difficult for a U.S. company to meet these requirements if the Turkish government selects an American option.”

Indeed there are early indications that the three potential U.S. contenders will evaluate the Turkish criteria in a very detailed way before deciding whether to bid for SSM's tender.

Also it is not clear how Eurocopter and Agusta, two Western European defense powerhouses, will receive the Turkish position. Analysts said the Russians, however, are likely to agree to SSM's conditions.

The Turkish Army presently has less than 10 AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopters, manufactured by Bell and purchased in the 1990s, and 20 earlier models of the Cobra family.

“We don't know at this point if the SSM model will be successful, or if it will become another failure like the previous case,” said an industry source. "

You see against IAR Brasov had to compete? And with what? With the oldest attack helicopter? Against Mi 28? Mangoose? Tiger??? Even Rooivalk and S-70 armed helicopter are superior in some domains to "Dracula". I think - this was to be a "tzeapa" to Romania.
And you see how was the history line of the turks programe...


Iama

My god... what a deep conclusion. Do you actualy know anything except COPY/PASTE in most Unapropriate Topics?
What do you know about AH-1Ro? It was supposed to be AH-1W version build here. A modern version of what used in Vietnam . USMC only now Upgrade them to 1Z standard. Why do you thing they didn;'t jumped on the AH-64 bandwagon? They already had a very good chopper.
First prototype flew in 1985 . Cobra is one of the Battle tested attack chopper in the world, still flew by many airforces.

And one more corection , Russia participated with Ka-50-2 Erdogan prototype.

Why would we buy a chopper that they already operate from many years?
Bulgaria just had the money to fly something ... most of their fleet was old russian stuff.

Not again this Grippen crap. Grippen got mauled baddly in air maneuvers by your truly F-16 of Norway.

Finally, someone else besides me who doesn't think the Grippen is the most spectacular invention since sliced bread.

Most people in this thread have been talking about the Grippen like it's God's gift, not just another fighter - and not the best one, at that!

Way to go, Tomcat!

Tomcat1974,

What!!! The F-16 superior to the "mightly" JAS Gripen. You must be joking! It is very likey that a well-flown Mig-29 Fulcrum, could best a F-16 one on one almost every time. Now, before you start with some tired old claims of F-16's shooting down Mig-29's. I would like state that so far the Mig-29's combat record is poor, for one reason, the Mig-29's that seen combat have been flown poorly trained pilots. If the Mig's had flown by Isreali or British Airmen, instead of some poorly trained pilots then result would be reversed.
Now back to F-16 vs the Gripen. The Gripen is a far more advanced and agile fighter then F-16, could every hope to be. Also the F-16 has reached a age where its design has neared its max. potential, while the Gripen has ample room for improvement. When the Romanian Air Force eventually gets the Gripen, we will see our Gripens whip, NATO F-16's in training exerisce's.
As for Norway AF's F-16 besting the Gripen air to air combat,I heard the complete opposite.

Thank You

Not again this Grippen crap. Grippen got mauled baddly in air maneuvers by your truly F-16 of Norway.

Verry nice reply, mr. tomcat! Because you and me don't have an apropriate opinion is a good motivation to begin a pesonal attack, no?

Thanks! You are impressed, no?

Yes. Unfortunatelly i don't have enough english skills to write more than short comments. Fortunatelly i understend from "context" what i read, and is enough - when i read others opinions. Aaaa, when i read an opinion different than myne i don't jump to his troat (i think).

I know. You are not the only one who knows that. Be sure. And it was supposed to be sell to Turkey - who like i posted upper, she abandoned the programe of aquisition, and now reopened. After some years! Years, mr. tomcat! I think you are a romanian person and you know well the monetary situation of Romania... We don't have the possibility to sustain a programe of 96 or 120 Dracula, and with some exports maybe the precise was lowered -> but like in may COPY + PASTE article writes, turcs abandoned that programme...

See? You ignore that!!!

USMC only now Upgrade them to 1Z standard. Why do you thing they didn;'t jumped on the AH-64 bandwagon? They already had a very good chopper.

No! You are not quite right here! Look: i don't say Cobra is not good... But is just like now Romania starts to produce MiG 21 LanceR and hope to sell some because is battle tested, up-graded ( and with new chinese engines could not fall from skyes too often!), etc. Sounds familiar? Its like "your" Dracula / Cobra... LanceR 2 like!
And they don't go to Apache because they don't want to trow to scrap yard they fleet of Cobras. They up graded Cobra fleet because:

- was more cheap to do that, then to trow them away and to aquire enough Apaches;
- was battle tested; and Apache too; but... Cobra is more stronger, can take more punches than ... Apaches glasses (*?);
- was another programme in development - you remember? and for that reason they don't start a quick exchange programme - > Cobra for Apache

etc. - i think you catch the point, anyway.

Hehehe. Not realy. Cobra's prototype flew his maiden flight more years than that. What you want to say is - the first modified Cobra in that new variant flew for the first time in 1985....

Like F-16, MiG-21, and other types of brothers with Cobra apropriate age! And are F-16 with MLU, MiG-21 LanceR and "93", etc. And all of them are old concepts, old birds, even if are produced in '80 or '90 for last series, even if they are (some of them) yet capable to do his jobs, but don't capable to beat up in performance the new birds.

Source: Turkish Daily News - they write that; you are sure you don't reffered to first programe with Kamov?? I'm not sure about that. But i promise you i make some extra searches.

And that Grippen thing.. Grippen is new. 100 %. LanceR new built (ippotethichall), Dracula, they are not so ... new.

SO: Mr. tomcat9174 i read with pleasure your posts; i will read with the same pleasure your next posts, because i don't have bad feelings for/against you. You know? We are just two forumists with different opinions.
Anyway, let down that COPY + PASTE thing. Its pretty hard for me to write/speak in english. It takes much time, and for me is maybe most valuable thing. It is more easy for me to put a press release or something and to read others opinions - who are more better correct in language than myne. If i put some in wrong topics, sorry to everyone. My fault! I take more care in future.

Peace!

Iama

tomcat1974 and Iamandi, stick to the hellicopter topic and drop the aggressivity.

Roger on that Victor. Sorry for the tone.. Iamandi just pay attention the plane versions the AH-1W proto flew in 85 ... AH-1Ro wold had been a Romanian Version of the 1W. Which differe quite much from the early Cobra's ...More armor , a lot more power in engines, new weapons systems etc .. is not the same. Like the Lancers ..intitialy where Mig 21MF which where 4th generation Mig's 21.
Cheers

Ok. I respect your point. But myne is different.

According to what you write in this new message - i say -> a 4 th generation of MiG-21 is finally a MiG-21. That 2 engines chinesse plane born from MiG-21 is just a MiG-21, something different, but a "21".
So, a Dracula better than AH-1W variant is not so good as Mangoose, Tiger, Mi-28 or Ka-50/2. Is just a better "W".

Iama

yes ... the AH-1w would had been better that Mangusta ..not sure about Mi28 is not in same class as AH-1W

What you mean by sayng "in same class"? I think they are.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/agusta/

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mi28/

Iama

Mi28 is in the same class as AH-64 Longbow .. all weather attack helicopter ...Radar guided missiles.
The Ah-1W, Augusta are more like light attack helicopters. Take a look at the Maximum takeoff weight.

This post has been edited by tomcat1974 on March 08, 2005 08:43 am