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> Romanian Army in Budapest 1919
Victor
Posted: January 06, 2010 05:57 pm
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contras,

The forum has clear rules regarding the posting of images. Please comply.
Thank you.

Regarding the debate, I really do not see any point in it. It is a historical fact that the Central Powers (including Hungary) took whatever they could find from Romania. When Romania occupied parts of Hungary, it acted in the same way: it took whatever it could find, including some of the Romanian goods taken by Hungary earlier. The difference was that while Hungary probably did not take the lion's share from the Romanian spoils, being the smaller ally, Romania took the lion's share from Hungary, being the main occupation force. From memory, this was one of the problems with the Western Allies who desired a division of the spoils according to the overall war contribution, which the Romanian government feared could have lead to Romania not recovering even the goods taken by Hungary from Wallachia (I remember reading this either in Leustean's book or Constantin Bratianu's book on the 1919 militry and political situation).
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ANDREAS
Posted: January 06, 2010 08:51 pm
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Regarding the issues in discussion,
need to say that I do not want to repeat dispute but there are some questions:
- did Hungary give back voluntary between december 1918 and april 1919 any goods stolen from Romania by A-H or German Armies (Mackensen Army Group for instance) which were stationed on his controlled territory?
- did Hungary need after her new borders (I mean here with his less territorial area) as many locomotives and wagons f.ex. as he possesed in late 1918? Don't want to justify a theft, no way, only to ask if in Transylvania were left sufficient locomotives and wagons after the hungarian (troops and administration) retreat from december 1918 -january 1919?
I am a person who judge the facts, not legends or vague memories, but the documents even real, but false set, could bring us to false conclusions! No intention to deny a robbery, even Romanian, if the took place, but first make the documents (or memories as well) speak, not statements subordinate to a purpose other than the truth! Than, if it proves true, no problem to accept it...
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contras
Posted: January 07, 2010 09:39 am
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QUOTE
contras,

The forum has clear rules regarding the posting of images. Please comply.
Thank you.


Sorry, the sorce of images I posted is Gen Mardarescu's book, Campania pentru desrobirea Ardealului si ocuparea Budapestei, apeared in 1921.
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dead-cat
Posted: January 07, 2010 10:16 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ January 06, 2010 09:51 pm)
- did Hungary need after her new borders (I mean here with his less territorial area) as many locomotives and wagons f.ex. as he possesed in late 1918? Don't want to justify a theft, no way, only to ask if in Transylvania were left sufficient locomotives and wagons after the hungarian (troops and administration) retreat from december 1918 -january 1919? 

rolling stock was a precious good in the immediate post-war era. a large quantity of railroad equipment was damaged and/or lost during the war. this coupled with a drop in rolling stock production during the war years led to a general shortage.
nobody had "sufficient" rail equipment.
it's precisely why you find rolling stock on the list of every reparation request.

This post has been edited by dead-cat on January 07, 2010 10:17 am
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contras
Posted: January 07, 2010 10:25 am
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If I upset somebody on this forum, I'm appologise.

About the debate, I think both me and Denes (which I respect very much), came with arguments and documents that must be noted. Both we have a decent language, and everything we said it come with proofs. That I apreciate very much. Just with some kind of debates, all we can find thruth.

Thank you,
And I appologise again if I upset somebody.
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contras
Posted: January 07, 2010 10:36 am
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About the sense of the debate, I think is important.
Because I find some sources about ww1 and regional wars, and it was written that Romanians looted Budapest in 1919. Same sources, don't said a word about lootings of Bucarest, Belgrad and even Brussels and other cities or towns under occupation.
I'm agree, there were some lootings, as everywere under occupation, whatever was the occupation. But looting of Budapest was so bad that it is important to be mentioned, only just looting?
That I want to know, and I need some arguments and figures.

On the other hand, I looked about pictures or other proofs about good gestures made by Central Powers army in Bucarest under occupation. I find none.
But I find many photos, reports, thanks, and other proofs about corect comportantion of Romanian Army in Budapest.
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horia
Posted: January 07, 2010 12:18 pm
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contras
Posted: January 13, 2010 08:46 pm
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I don't want to start another debate, but at this topic, I think it is important to know more about the facts, and proofs. Here is another proof about the Romanian army in Budapest (I had some more). This is again from gen Mardarescu's book, Campania pentrui desrobirea Ardealului si ocupatia Budapestei, 1922. Here are the poor children of Budapest, feeding by Romanian army.

(IMG:http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3674/f26.jpg)


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contras
Posted: January 29, 2010 07:32 pm
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QUOTE
Another sample of lootings (without quote marks):
1292 steam engines, 2006 passenger rail cars and 32,154 freight cars of the Hungarian National Railway (MAV) were taken to Rumania in 1919/1920 (obviously not empty). [Source: Encyclopaedia of Hungary in W.W. 1].
I don't have the relevant figures handy, but I would say this huge number exceeded the total train park of Rumania.
I can post more examples, if requested.

Gen. Dénes


I find some figures and I need your help, Denes. At 21 November 1918, a number of 6 French-Romanians boards were disposed at main passes in Carphatians mountains to had a surveillance at retreated Mackensen army. The retreat lasted in 28 November. I find some figures, that at least 260 steam engines and 5000 railway cars, 60 of them loaded with agricol machines, avoioded these commissions. These were stollen from Romania, only in 7 days. Before that date, during 2 years of ocupation, who knows?
In 5 december, at Ramnicu valcea was a meeting between military representatives of Romania (gen Ludovic Mircescu), French, Hungary and Germany (Mackensen army, col Schwarzkoppen, head of staff). He related that Mackensen army was listed along railway Brasov-Arad-Szolnok-German frontier, the bulk in Hungary, and there were about 170000 men and 50000 horses.
Mackensen was interned, or arrested, in Hungary, and many parts of these materials were retained in Hungary.
Do you have some figures about the cantities of steam engines and railway cars were retained in Hungary from Mackensen army?

Thank you.
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contras
Posted: February 22, 2010 10:26 pm
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I recomand the book written by Radu Cosmin, Romanii la Budapesta, apeared in 1922 and edited again, after 2000, about the wiews of Romanian corespondent in this war.
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contras
Posted: April 03, 2010 08:52 am
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It looks like the book written by Gen Gheorghe Mardarescu, Campania pentru desrobirea Ardealului si ocuparea Budapestei, was reedited, with other veterans memories from this war.

http://www.marist.ro/aparitii_campania_ardeal.htm
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21 inf
Posted: April 03, 2010 05:37 pm
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Thanks for the info! I ordered it following the link you posted! I just cant wait to read it! :) General Mardarescu is the one who named the two romanian soldiers who put the "opinca" on hungarian parliament in 1919 and described the event.
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contras
Posted: April 05, 2010 10:42 am
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QUOTE
General Mardarescu is the one who named the two romanian soldiers who put the "opinca" on hungarian parliament in 1919 and described the event.


Their names are sgt. Iordan and cprl. Bivolaru. It apears also in gen. Marcel Olteanu book, Huzarul negru, printed in 1926.
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21 inf
Posted: April 05, 2010 04:57 pm
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QUOTE (contras @ April 05, 2010 10:42 am)
QUOTE
General Mardarescu is the one who named the two romanian soldiers who put the "opinca" on hungarian parliament in 1919 and described the event.


Their names are sgt. Iordan and cprl. Bivolaru. It apears also in gen. Marcel Olteanu book, Huzarul negru, printed in 1926.

Yes, you are right. My mistake, citing from memory. Sorry :(
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