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> Romanian Army in Budapest 1919
Victor
Posted: July 28, 2003 07:31 am
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Sounds very much like the \"looting\" of Budapest in 1919.  


There was looting in Budapest in 1919. Just like the Central Powers did in all Romania during the war.
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Geto-Dacul
Posted: July 28, 2003 02:22 pm
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Victor wrote :

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There was looting in Budapest in 1919. Just like the Central Powers did in all Romania during the war.


This is a very "fast" comment... Is there any list of the looted objects / things by the Romanians in Budapest?
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Dénes
Posted: July 28, 2003 03:35 pm
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Geto-Dacul wrote:
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Is there any list of the looted objects / things by the Romanians in Budapest?

When researching the air war over Hungary in 1918-1919, I came upon original documents preserved in the Hungarian Military Archives, detaling hundreds or airplanes, aero engines, machine tools, etc., taken away by Rumanian troops in 1919. Even the serial numbers of the railway cars (also captured MAV waggons), heading towards Rumania, are noted, including the date of their departure, etc.

The fact of well over one hundred ex-Hungarian serviceable airplanes existing in Rumanian inventory from 1919 on (including individual serial numbers, etc.) is confirmed by a ground-breaking article, signed by Dr. Valeriu Avram, published in the Aeronautica magazine. AFAIK, he was scorned soon after by his military superiors for this article...

Dénes
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Victor
Posted: July 28, 2003 06:59 pm
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This is a very \"fast\" comment... Is there any list of the looted objects / things by the Romanians in Budapest?


The armistice imposed by Romania to Hungary asked for the following:
-the Hungarian Army must be reduced to 15,000
-all the equipment that remained unused was confiscated
-the munitions factories and their equipment were confiscated
-half of the rolling stock was confiscated (including the equipment necessary for their maintenance)
-30% of the cattle and other living stock was confiscated
-30% of the agricultural machines was confiscated
-20,000 wagons of grain, 10,000 wagons of corn and 5,000 wagons of barley were also taken
-all the Romanian ships that had been taken between 1916-18 were to be returned and half of the Hungarian river ships were confiscated
- the Hungarian side was going to take care of the expenses for the support of the Romanian troops during the occupation and for their moving on the railroad
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Csaba Becze
Posted: July 28, 2003 08:19 pm
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The Rumanians collected and confiscated everything: from raincoats till bycicles... I have very long official lists, inahurry.
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inahurry
Posted: July 29, 2003 08:55 pm
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Typical.

Of course imposing harsh compensation conditions can be considered an act of robbery but I would like to know when was 'loot' used in serious historical writings to describe the conditions from an armistice agreement.

The peace treaty imposed to Germany after WW1 and many other examples can be considered pure robbery but, strangely, in the historical references they are mentioned in many ways but not 'loot'. Not even the occupation of Bucharest, that was mentioned before, is to my knowledge, described as 'looting' even if it may have all the charactheristics.

The choice of this word and its later circulation is successful Hungarian propaganda relying on the known effect the word has on the reader.

Checking an english dictionary for those less familiar with the english language nuances could help. Looting is synonym with sacking or plundering a city in times of riots or wars. To be more graphical the Los Angeles riots showed what looting means. This didn't happen in Budapest.

Congratulations anyway to the Hungarian propagandists, they knew their job well.
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Dénes
Posted: July 29, 2003 09:48 pm
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Excerpt from the diary of Gen. Harry Hill Bandholtz, titled 'An Undiplomatic Diary', ed. by Fritz Konrad Kruger (New York: Columbia University Press, 1933), p. 30:
"(...)in my opinion, the Roumanians were doing their utmost to delay matters in order to complete the loot of Hungary (...)"
P.33 "The Roumanian on their part immediately begun to loot Hungary, removing all (...) war material they could find, and then proceeded also to clean the country (...)"
Etc., etc.

General Harry Hill Bandholtz of the United States Army was appointed to head the Military Mission to Hungary, along with three other Allied Generals.
You may find further details in his aforementioned diary, available on-line: http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/bandh/bandh.pdf

Dénes
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Csaba Becze
Posted: July 29, 2003 10:14 pm
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inahurry:

this is offtopic here, but I have some comments (BTW, I didn't use the looting expression before)
The Rumanian troops' behavior was not sympathetic at all for the Entente officers (British, Italian, Ameriacan) also. About the looting a British officer said, that the Rumanians stole everything (from individual persons too), he said:"they took the nails from planks also".
The American general Bandholtz knocked out Rumanian general Serbescu and his guys with his riding-whip from the Hungarian National Museum, because the Rumanians wanted to loot this also, etc... I think, the 'loot' expression in not exaggeration at all (gen. Bandholtz used this expression also in his diary).


Hmm, Plutonier Dénes was faster
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inahurry
Posted: July 29, 2003 10:22 pm
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Thank you for proving my point so quickly.

Now the 'looting' extends to the entire country, great. At least when refering to a country you add a literary dimension which, well, brings as into literature's realm. More of this a bit later.

I know for a Hungarian is infuriating. As it is infuriating for a Romanian who can say, unfortunately, after many bitter experiences Romania was looted repeatedly, many, many times in history.

Doesn't matter you pretend you didn't get my point. You certainly know the exact meaning and when the word 'loot' is to be used.

Still, the 'looting' of Budapest is the most often encountered piece of successful Hungarian propaganda in terms of language subtleties. Obviously because the 'looting' of an entire country would have no impact for an english speaking person because then he would immediately understand it is not actual loot but a figure of speech.

Looting = sacking or plundering of a city in times of riots or war. It implies violence perpetrated in a disorderly fashion either by soldiers or civilians. Otherwise, except for desired emotional impact, everything in history is 'loot' - a peace treaty forcing the losing side to pay heavily, cession of a province, confiscation of a national treasury, like archives for example (hint), and so on.
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inahurry
Posted: July 29, 2003 10:33 pm
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Certain "anecdotes" if the word lies seems too harsh are just that even when only one party kept a diary (or especially then). Americans again, hmmm, they must have a thing with museums. Brave man though, he succeeded better than his grand-sons. How many anecdotes about the Hungarian army behaviour do you want ?
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Dénes
Posted: July 29, 2003 11:06 pm
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I am sure, Gen. Bandholtz, as an American, doesn't need a dictionary to know the exact meaning of loot(ing) and when to use it.
I am also convinced that the General, being an actual eye witness, doesn't recall the facts he experienced in an anecdotal manner.

It's another issue that you, 'inahurry', apparently cannot be convinced of the untrue nature of your pre-set opinions, no matter the proofs (not personal opinions) lined up to sustain a certain point. This appears to be valid for all controversial issues you've raised throughout this forum. Therefore I suggest to you to return to the actual profile of this forum, namely the military aspects of the Rumanian Armed Forces in W.W. 2. Shall we?

Dénes
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Csaba Becze
Posted: July 30, 2003 12:18 am
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inahurry, I quoted objective foreigner eyewitnesses (actually they were not really objectives, because they were allies of the Rumanians, NOT the Hungarians). If you want Hungarian remembrances, I'll enclose some (or official reports) For example not just about looting depots, firms, factories, inhabitants: about killing innocent people also...
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inahurry
Posted: July 30, 2003 01:31 am
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Denes,

We are there already. Thank you for monitoring my posts, maybe I’ll reciprocate.

But your post is very revealing and shows I hit a nerve.

Not everything you (or others) quote is true or, to be very clear, the content of what you or others quote isn't always true.

I was merely ironic about the 'fact' but this stirred a storm.

Propaganda is not done by Hungarians for the Hungarians only. Most often is by foreigners for foreigners but serving Hungarian purposes.

'Looting' of Budapest is not WW2, ok, so I end this here.

Unfortunately, the entire orientation of this site sometimes is not so clear. Too bad for some genuine effort to gather elements of military information but you will allow me to suspect other purposes are not so candid. Up to a point it’s understandable as we all have parti-pris.

If I choose to ignore some of the posts is entirely my decision. There are certain controversies that never bear fruit. Also, as you know, devil is in the details and devil tempts us all so, please, allow me from time to time to run away from this temptation. I can as I’m no historian so I don’t have a professional obligation to be extremely thorough. Sure I can bring my share of quotes and sources, though I don’t carry them in my map, and especially where these are electronically available it’s common courtesy to do it. If I extended the scope in other topics is again my decision because, as we plainly see these days, some events in the past have direct and critical consequences in the present. If you can't stand this reality check with the present times, which justifies my previous assertion, I very much doubt you are interested in finding unbiased information as long some authors have rather transparent interests in presenting their reality serving other purpose than history. You can ban me anytime you want as long this is your site. If I can’t say, in a polite manner, that some author is lying, even if I may be wrong, then there’s not much to be added.

While some topics are certainly technical and probably raise no polemics, other are very sensitive as the irritation to a little “sting” proved. My interpretation was logical and I didn’t dispute much of the assertions just one word. Well, as I made my point and because I don’t find any pleasure in this polemic I shall stop here.

For other topics concerned address your criticism there, shall we ?
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inahurry
Posted: July 30, 2003 01:34 am
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Not necessary Csaba, I have my own sources too, far more direct than any book or diary. And you don't want to be off topic from something already off topic. We probably both select what hurts us most.
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Dénes
Posted: July 30, 2003 02:00 am
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Amen, inahurry.

Dénes

P.S. To add credibility to your posts, I suggest using your real name, so we would know whom are we having the pleasure to...
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