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> The Battle of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, 60 Years Ago...
Victor
Posted: November 16, 2004 12:35 pm
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You guys are wandering off-topic here.
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Dénes
Posted: November 16, 2004 03:20 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ Nov 16 2004, 04:41 PM)
QUOTE (Denes)
Or, closer to home, would you advocate the usage (in non-Rumanian text, of course) of Chernovtsy, or Czernowitz, instead of Cernauti, or Kiliya instead of Chilia, both located in historical Bessarabia, when talking of the 1941-1944 period?


Yes, why not? For non-Romanian target audience it would be Chernivtsi (Cernauti in Romanian), Oradea (Nagyvarad in Hungarian, Grosswardein in German). However some localities in Bessarabia like Chisinau can be used as given, as they can be found under the same name nowadays.

QUOTE
the 3rd Army made a rapid advance and on 5 July liberated Cernauti
QUOTE
It liberated together with the 4th Mountain Brigade the region's capital, Cernauti

From: http://www.worldwar2.ro/portrete/?article=13&language=en

I smell double standards...

Col. Dénes

P.S. Obeying Victor's request, this is my last post regarding the proper usage of localities' names in historical context, as I believe I have proven my point.

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 16, 2004 03:21 pm
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dragos
Posted: November 16, 2004 04:37 pm
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Before addressing me you should have checked the author. However I don't advocate changing the article, because at least I don't pretend to be Mr. Objectivity.

Case closed from my side too.
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Victor
Posted: November 16, 2004 08:04 pm
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I wrote the article, not Dragos.
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Lysimachus
Posted: November 18, 2004 04:48 pm
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To come back to the original topic, does anyone has the oob of that battle?
Thank you
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Dénes
Posted: November 28, 2004 08:21 pm
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Death Card of a Wehrmacht soldier, KIA on Oct. 6, 1944.
Großwardein, anyone?

Col. Dénes

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Dani
Posted: November 29, 2004 01:55 pm
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It's Oradea known as Grosswardein,Oradea-Mare,Nagy-Varad,Nagy-Várad.
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Dani
Posted: November 29, 2004 02:01 pm
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QUOTE (Lysimachus @ Nov 18 2004, 04:48 PM)
To come back to the original topic, does anyone has the oob of that battle?
Thank you

Apologies for not posting as promised the oob. As soon as possible I'll post.
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BobM
Posted: December 01, 2004 08:05 am
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Gents

Found an online history of the Torda battle :-) cant read it though as its in Hungarian and the machine tramslator is awful :-(

http://www.hadakutjan.hu/tortenetek_tordai_csata.php

Cheers

Bob
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Ahmed
Posted: December 18, 2004 04:57 pm
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- Pusztacsán = Ceaunu Mic
- Komjátszeg = Comsesti
- Koppánd = Copaceni
- Mészkö = Cheia
- Keresztes = Oprisani
- A[ranyos]Polyán = Poiana
- Mezöörke = Urca

Mind you, I did not check a current detailed map of Rumania to see if all these localities actually are around Turda.


Actually, Pusztacsán should be Ceanu Mic, not Ceaunu. This is how everybody refers to it, and that's how it's spelled on the map. And yes, all these localities are in fact more or less close to Turda, except Mezöörke (= Urca) and Komjátszeg( = Comsesti) wich I couldn't find (I'll have to look on a more detailed map).

Couldn't help noticing the thread is dying, wich is a shame as this is an interesting topic.
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Dénes
Posted: December 18, 2004 06:34 pm
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QUOTE (Ahmed @ Dec 18 2004, 10:57 PM)
Actually, Pusztacsán should be Ceanu Mic, not Ceaunu. This is how everybody refers to it, and that's how it's spelled on the map.

That's exactly what I wrote in my earlier post.

QUOTE
Couldn't help noticing the thread is dying, wich is a shame as this is an interesting topic.


I posted what I know from the Hungarian-German side.

I am also very interested in continuing this thread.

It would be nice to read what the Rumanian side (and Soviet, of course) knows about this important and prolonged battle in Transylvania.

Col. Dénes
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BobM
  Posted: December 19, 2004 08:30 am
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Gents

Some of the above link translated bu my friend Chris

Cheers

Bob


_____________

On September 13 the advanced squadrons of the soviet 6. Guards Tank Army’s 5. Guards Tank Corps opened fire with tank guns on the 25. Infantry Regiment’s defences. This signalled the beginning of the battle of Torda. At noon at Bágy a group of 12 tanks broke into the Torda bridgehead. Lieutenant Karoly Szentágotai commanding 25. AT Company stopped the soviets with 3 shots. In the afternoon the Tordai bridgehead came under artillery fire. On the 14th the remaining 9 tanks, with Rumanian infantry, crossed the Aranyos, and attacked up the Hosszú [Long] glen on the southeast of Torda.

On the 14th the Aranyosegerbegy bridgehead was attacked for the first time. The Rumanian 7. Infantry Division, with Soviet tanks, pushed back the 26/III. battalion, but did not break through the main line of resistance along the Aranyos. The Rumanian 18. Infantry Division, again with Soviet tanks, crossed the Aranyos, seized the [foothills? Dike?] along the river, and penetrated the main defensive line in the valley of the Szent János brook 3km east of Torda. The 3/5. Motorised Rifle Battalion gave up the Marosludas crossing, after the arrival of Soviet infantry.

By dawn on the 15th the Soviets had thrown bridges across at Keresztes, by which reinforcements crossed, and during the day 6. Guards Tank Army’s 9. Guards Motorised Corps entered the fray. The Soviet-Rumanian Mihajlov-group with 25 tanks occupied Torda-Sósfürdo, and reached the southernmost edge of the Szalonnás hills, the northernmost point of Torda. The Rumanian 7. Division occupied the Aranyosegerbegy bridgehead, the 26. Infantry Regiment was forced up the Péterlaka dales into the hills along it to the east. The 2. Panzer Division’s 3. Motorised Rifle Regiment (commander Colonel István Vaska, September from the 26th Colonel Jeno Altorjay Jeno) launched a counterattack in two directions, in the the Szent János and the Péterlaka glens but did not reach the original main defensive line. By evening the two soviet bridgeheads combined.

On the 16th the 25. Infantry Regiment and the 6. Motorised Rifle Battalion started an attack to clear the junction of the Szent János and the Péterlaka glens, but did not achieve its aims. Next day the 4. and 6. Motorised Rifle Battalions renewed the attack, but it was stalled by very strong defensive artillery fire.

On the 17th between the Gyalui alps eastern foothills the soviet 35. Guards Corps latched onto the attack, and at Torda so did the 104. Rifle Corps. Between the mountains, in the Jara stream valley, the Soviet spearheads reached the 2. Mountain Replacement Brigade’s line of battle at Magyarpeterd at the Torda gorge’s northern exit.

On the 18 Sperrverband Kessel took over the direction of operations in the mountains, and command of the Hungarian 1. and 2. Mountain Replacement Brigades. Lieutenant-general Mortimer von Kessel’s group was created from the 905. Panzer group, the 1015., 1176. Assault Gun Battalions, the 721. AT Battalion, the Brandenburg Infantry Regiment III. battalion, the II/241. Luftwaffe AA Battalion, the 92. Panzer Pioneer Battalion, the 52. Pioneer Battalion, as well as the Heckle-, the Gradient- and the Eder-group. The 25. Infantry Division, the 2. Panzer Division, and the 7. and 9. Field Replacement Division remained under the Hungarian II. Corps.

September 19-étol, independently the csapatrészek hovatartozásától, the defence direction the 25. gyaloghadosztály, the counter-offensives the 2. páncéloshadosztály commander vette through. THE II. legion mickle ereju counterattack started. Colonel Géza Böszörményi, the commander of 25th Infantry Regiment commanded the western group comprising the 25/II. and III. Infantry Battalions, the Hungarian 10. Assault Artillery Battalion, the German 6. and 1179. Assault Gun Battalions; Colonel László Balsay, the 3. Tank Regiment commander’s eastern group included the 3/I. and II. Tank Battalion, the 4. and 6. Motorised Rifle Battalions, the 52. Armoured SPAA Battalion and the 2/2. Armoured Pioneer Company. The reserve comprising 25/I. Infantry Battalion, 25. Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion, 5. Motorised Rifle Battalion, 2/1. Armoured Pioneer Company and one section of the 3. Tank Regiment was deployed in Torda-Sósfürdo, or Mezoörké, under Colonel István Vaska. The defence of Torda was entrusted to the 1. Infantry Regiment commander, Colonel Lipót Kelety. The fire of the supporting artillery group was directed by the 2. Panzer Division’s artillery commander, Colonel Károly Merényi.

The western group reached the [dike? Ridót] 1 km north of the Aranyos between Sósfürdo and the Szent János stream, but was stopped by the heroic death of the Torda-born Colonel Böszörményi near Sósfürdo. The eastern group also initially gained ground, but although the 5. Motorised Rifle Battalion was thrown into the fight, the attack stalled before it got out of the hill line into the Péterlaka glen. Rumanian aircraft also took part in repelling an attack [by predominantly German aircraft?]. The next couple of days were relatively peaceful, while the two sides were "licking their wounds".

On September 22 the climax of the struggle began, the second stage of the battle of Torda. To the west of Torda in the Jara and Hasada valleys one Soviet and two Rumanian divisions, and two motorised [mechanized?] brigades broke through. The Tordai gorge was lost. A further one soviet and two Rumanian divisions supported by the 6th Guards Tank Brigade and Soviet aircraft broke out from the bridgehead seized north of the Aranyos. The 4th. Motor Rifle Battalion held a blocking position in the Péterlaka glen, the 3/II. Tank Battalion blocked the Sos glen. The former to the north-west, and the latter to the north-east […]. […]. The Soviet tanks breaking into the Sos glen were 4 km from the Rumanian 18th Infantry Division to the north-west of Torda at Szind, on the threshold of Torda. The eastern attacker groupment reached the Fibulae- mounts.

The 1/I. Infantry Battalion and the 10/2. Assault Artillery Battery’s counterattack started the closing of the Sos glen. The counterattack surprised the Soviet 46th Guards Tank Brigade. Captain? Janos Bozsoki’s 6 Zrínyi-II assault howitzers knocked out 18 T-34 in the Sósfürdo glen, then scattered the infantry surrounding the 25th Reconnaissance Battalion. In the Sósfürdo area 5 Zrínyi crews were killed or wounded. Their commander Bozsoki fought his way back with his vehicle, got the casualties to the two assault guns still mobile, they pulled out, then the 10/1. Assault Artillery Battery with 4 Zrínyis drove the Russians from the vicinity of Sósfürdo, and extracted the 3 knocked out vehicles as well. This action, which earned the Hungarian Officer the Gold Medal of Valour, stopped Torda from being encircled.

In this critical situation, on the morning of the 23rd the German 23. Panzer Division launched a counterattack. The eastern group reached the Aranyos at Aranyosegerbegy, drove three divisions back behind the river, then turned west towards the bogged down western group. They broke out into the completely flat south of the [floodplain?] between Torda and Aranyosegerbegy, where [?-general] Josef von Radowitz, the divisional commander halted the attack. That advance exposed the AFVs to the direct fire of the Soviet artillery. According to Norbert Számvéber’s research the 23. Panzer Regiment, the 126., 128. Panzer Grenadier Regiments and the 23. Panzer Reconnaissance Battalion had altogether 36 Pz.V Panther, 6 Pz.IV, 2 Pz.III, 16 StuG.IV and StuG.III assault guns, as well as 4 Marder, 4 Wespe and 3 Hummel, to which Lieutenant-colonel Alajos Sághy’s 3/II. Tank Battalion with 7 Turan I tanks was attached. On the 24th part of the division carried out a counterattack to clear the Kolozsvár-Torda highway through the Turi glen, then next day redeployed to the Nagyvárad area.

On September 24 one soviet rifle division and two Rumanian infantry divisions, with a mechanized brigade, the Plane- alps foot-hill between, Szelicsén through the shed northerly side run into, s adown already only 10 km elected off Kolozsvártól. 25-am I further teret won in the mountains, where he comes from began more German group subtraction the szászrégeni line of battle averment. Helyüket the 7. camp póthadosz- abscess vette through. The e in the day extradited soviet straight the Southeast- Plain kialakítandó csapásméro groupment parted be the 6. gárda-harckocsihadsereget. The 2. Cavalry- Motorised Group of 5. Guards Cavalry Corps took up position by Torda.

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Ahmed
Posted: December 19, 2004 10:57 am
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Good post, BobM.

Unfortunately there are a lot of names in this story that sound realy unfamiliar (i.e. Szelicsén, Hosszú, Mezoörké, etc). This is why I definitly support Denes's ideea to provide names in all relevant languages.
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dragos
Posted: January 28, 2005 10:37 pm
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The disposition of Romanian troops at Turda

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Dragos1984
Posted: July 21, 2005 01:37 am
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hey guys.. just to let you know that ill be comming to Romania on Aug 25th and ill be staying there for University (6 years) and im bringing my metal detector with me, i was wandering if any of you guys are interested in going and searching around Turda and all the other battle sites such as Oarba de Mures etc for battle relics ,. let me know if any one wants to tag along for the hunt. ill be staying mostly in Cluj and Sibiu.. let me know what u think... my email is : dragos_aikido@yahoo.com

Dragos B)
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