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> The Battle of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, 60 Years Ago...
aerialls
Posted: October 25, 2004 08:51 pm
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That's a great description.
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dragos
Posted: October 25, 2004 08:52 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 20 2004, 06:35 AM)
60 years ago was the battle of of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, where the largest combat in Transylvania took place. Overall, the battle lasted from September 5 to October 8, in three phases, between the German 8th and Hungarian 2nd Armies, against the Soviet 27th and Rumanian 4th Armies.

60 years ago today, on the 19th, was one of the fiercest combats between German-Hungarian and Soviet-Rumanian troops.

Gen. Dénes

Many sources give Oarba de Mures as the most dramatic and bloodiest confrontation between Romanians and the Axis troops.
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Lysimachus
Posted: November 05, 2004 06:54 am
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Thank you for this great description. I will try to make a campaign for The Last Crusade ame out of these informations. :D
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BobM
  Posted: November 05, 2004 11:57 am
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Map :D

Cheers

Bob

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Dénes
Posted: November 05, 2004 04:53 pm
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Very nice and detailed map, Bob M. Thanks.
What is the source?

The main problem with it is the lack of Rumanian and German names of the localities and geographic points, which hinders the pinpointing of the action to current Rumanian, or wartime German maps.

This reinforces, once again, my view that when dealing with multi-ethnic territories, as Transylvania is, a scholarly historian should always mention the names in all local languages and represent the borders as they were in that particular time period - as I try to do in my writings and for which receive heavy flak from some people with narrow views.

Lt. Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 05, 2004 04:54 pm
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dragos
Posted: November 05, 2004 05:52 pm
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Anyone interested can find the Romanian names on this map easy.

QUOTE (Denes)
This reinforces, once again, my view that when dealing with multi-ethnic territories, as Transylvania is, a scholarly historian should always mention the names in all local languages


Is this for Transylvania or in general, because theoretically local ethnicity and combatants does not necessary cross each other? In order to be consistent with this method, you should happen to use, let's say 4-5 names for each locality (the official name, the names used by ethnic minorities, the name used by combatants etc)

Let's be honest and say that such things as the names used will always remain at the latitude of the author.
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Dénes
Posted: November 05, 2004 06:36 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ Nov 5 2004, 11:52 PM)
Anyone interested can find the Romanian names on this map easy.

I doubt that, mainly for those who were not born in that region. Here is a quiz for anyone. Try to find the Rumanian name for 'A GYERES', shown on the map. The German name would be next...

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QUOTE (Denes)
This reinforces, once again, my view that when dealing with multi-ethnic territories, as Transylvania is, a scholarly historian should always mention the names in all local languages


Is this for Transylvania or in general, because theoretically local ethnicity and combatants does not necessary cross each other?

This rule of thumb is obviously valid for all Europe, not only Transylvania. I just gave it as an example because the above map does deal with Transylvania.

Now putting your attemp of irony aside, by local languages I meant of course the languages widely used locally, which have historical roots. As you may know, in Transylvania these languages are Rumanian, Hungarian and German, or in Bessarabia: Rumania, Russian, Ukrainian and sometimes German (see, for ex. Cetatea Alba, Belgorod, Bilhorod, Akkerman - all denoting the same city).

What I failed to note, because it was obvious to me, is that the usage of names in different languages is recommended mainly for texts written not in these languages (for example, I don't expect a Rumanian text to write anything but Cluj, or Cluj-Napoca - but not Cluj-Napoca in historical context - a Hungarian text Kolozsvár, or a German text Klausenburg), languages which have wide international spread, e.g. English, or French.

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In order to be consistent with this method, you should happen to use, let's say 4-5 names for each locality (the official name, the names used by ethnic minorities, the name used by combatants etc.

You hit the nail on its head, albeit probably inadvertently, when raising the issue of "the official name". By "the official name" - in my view, at least - one should use as the main form the official name existing on the very time period the action takes place in history, which might be different today. For example - to move a bit away from Eastern Europe - I think the historian should use the name Königsberg when describing a W.W. 2 era action (mentioning the city's Polish name as well), and not the current official Russian name of Kaliningrad.

QUOTE
Let's be honest and say that such things as the names used will always remain at the latitude of the author.

Of course, every author uses his/her approach to history. It's a free world after all - honestly.
However, ignoring such historical details, may put in doubt his/her thoroughness or impartiality in tacling a historical topic.

Lt. Col. Dénes

P.S. I would like to hear other people's opinion too about this topic.

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 05, 2004 07:23 pm
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dragos
Posted: November 05, 2004 08:58 pm
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Szind = Sănduleşti
Szt Mihalyfalva = Mihai Viteazul
Sinfalva = Moldoveneşti
Tur = Tureni
Aranyoslona = Luna
A-Gyeres = Câmpia Turzii
Egerbegy = Viişoara
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Dénes
  Posted: November 05, 2004 09:00 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ Nov 6 2004, 02:58 AM)
Szind =

Can you be more specific?

Lt. Col. Dénes
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dragos
Posted: November 05, 2004 09:05 pm
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Sorry, keyboard problems.

See above.
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Dénes
Posted: November 05, 2004 09:11 pm
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I have to check my lists for the matching Rumanian names.
Now, how about the German names? ;)

On the other hand, what if the names of the villages are embedded in text, so one cannot simply guess them by connecting the dots of identified larger localities shown on the map?

And I am still looking forward to hearing other peoples' opinions.

Lt. Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 05, 2004 09:12 pm
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dragos
Posted: November 05, 2004 09:17 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ Nov 6 2004, 12:11 AM)
Now, how about the German names? ;)

Who's asking for them? :roll:
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Dénes
Posted: November 05, 2004 09:21 pm
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Whoever has access to German documents or books related to the 'Schacht am Thorenburg'...

Lt. Col. Dénes

P.S. You did not address my explanations and clarifications given to your earlier points.

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 05, 2004 09:33 pm
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dragos
Posted: November 05, 2004 09:46 pm
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The principles expressed by you here sound fine.

Please refresh my memory and tell me about your book "Rumanian Air Force The Prime Decade 1939-1946", on the cover map, how did you use the names for the localities in Bessarabia?
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Dénes
Posted: November 05, 2004 09:55 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ Nov 6 2004, 03:46 AM)
Please refresh my memory and tell me about your book "Rumanian Air Force The Prime Decade 1939-1946", on the cover map, how did you use the names for the localities in Bessarabia?

Since the map shows the situation existing at start of 'Operation Barbarossa', June 22, 1941 - as mentioned in the footnote - the main names of localities in Bessarabia are in Russian, while the Rumanian and German ones, if any, in brackets.

Lt. Col. Dénes
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