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> Vienna, 30 August 1940 - Award or Diktat ?
Dénes
Posted: July 26, 2004 09:42 pm
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Also, \"Horty with his hungarian forces entered Transilvania\" (in Sept. 1940) because of the 2nd Vienna award of August 30, 1940, signed also by Rumania, which stipulated that Northern Transylvania became part of Hungary. Therefore Vice-Admiral Horthy and \"his\" Hungarian troops did not occupy Rumania either.

As usual, you make it seems that Romania agreed with the Vienna Diktat, not it was forced to sign it.

Both Rumania and Hungary had no other choice but to either sign, or refuse the document. Both parties signed it, therefore accepted it.
And I see that you reverted again to the "diktat" form. :roll: I thought we've discussed this in details on another thread and agreed upon the internationally used "award" or "resolution" form. "Diktat" is used exclusively by some Rumanian sources.
BTW, if it was a "diktat", then it was a "diktat" for both Rumania and Hungary, wasn't it? :)

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The Soviets did not occupy Bessarabia and N Bukovina either. :roll

:?:
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dragos
Posted: July 27, 2004 10:56 am
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Regarding the Vienna "arbitration", Marius may find the following pages hosted by the University of Bucharest very useful (only in Romanian):

Aprecieri privind evoluţia revizionismului maghiar şi România

Mihail Manoilescu despre dictatul de la Viena

Textul “arbitrajului” de la Viena (30 august 1940)

Problema acceptării “arbitrajului” de la Viena
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dragos
Posted: July 27, 2004 01:14 pm
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It was about the statement "Horty with his hungarian forces entered Transilvania". A topic on this already exist though.
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Bernard Miclescu
Posted: July 27, 2004 09:40 pm
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BTW, if it was a \"diktat\", then it was a \"diktat\" for both Rumania and Hungary, wasn't it?


Well , for the "Diktat" definition i agree withe Denes. A real Diktat, IMO was the Versailles treaty towards Germany. No German delegation was there to sign the Treaty. And BTW i don't remember if any Austro-Hungarian were too.

But like Dragos, my heart (Romanian) considerate the Vienna Treaty like a "Diktat" Romania having the choice of distroing its self as a State or to continue to exist mutilated.
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dragos
Posted: July 28, 2004 05:47 am
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Well , for the \"Diktat\" definition i agree withe Denes. A real Diktat, IMO was the Versailles treaty towards Germany. No German delegation was there to sign the Treaty. And BTW i don't remember if any Austro-Hungarian were too.


Pentru a evita o astfel de escaladare, Hitler a impus arbitrajul de la Viena, care a fost în realitate un dictat. (Mihail Manoilescu, ministrul de Externe al României nefiind lăsat măcar să facă o declaraţie, după ce fusese comunicată decizia arbitrilor – Ribbentrop şi Ciano – a leşinat).
http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istori...-1940/13-13.htm

The Romanian foreign minister was not even allowed to make a statement, he was announced the decision of Ribbentrop and Ciano.
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Marius
Posted: July 28, 2004 10:04 am
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At that time, German troops were allies of Rumania, thus were not occupying the country. Also, \"Horty with his hungarian forces entered Transilvania\" (in Sept. 1940) because of the 2nd Vienna award of August 30, 1940, signed also by Rumania, which stipulated that Northern Transylvania became part of Hungary. Therefore Vice-Admiral Horthy and \"his\" Hungarian troops did not occupy Rumania either.
Dénes


I am sorry but it was no award, Mihail Manoilescu was forced to sign the "diktat". He did not even read the lines. http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istori...-1940/13-11.htm
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Dénes
Posted: July 28, 2004 04:13 pm
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It's one thing to be young and inexperienced and another one not to read the given sources properly.

Manoilescu did not read the text because he was ill. Valer Pop read it (aloud) for him, so he knew what he signed:
"În clipa aceea, mi-am pierdut cunoştinţa. (...) Am început să văd din nou şi am avut puterea să duc mai departe calvarul.
Mi s-au prezentat actele spre semnare. (...) Am iscălit tot fără să mai citesc. Valer Pop citea pentru mine."


As for Manoilescu being forced to sign it, the decision to accept the Vienna award was taken by the Crown Council.

By the way, as mentioned in the links given by Dragos, neither parties were satified with the outcome. The Hungarians wanted a min. of 50,000 sq. km and received less, while the Rumanians (who already accepted the handover of approx. 6,000 sq. km) lost more, Therefore if you insist that it was a "dictat" (or "diktat"), then it was the same for both signatory parties.

Dénes
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Marius
Posted: July 28, 2004 05:46 pm
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That is exactly what i mean it was a dictat for both parts! I read the source properly. Why did he became ill? Isn't it because he saw all the cityes given away. He loocked at Brasov and it was still in Romanian hands... :)
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Marius
Posted: July 28, 2004 05:47 pm
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I haven't said: "he did not read it at all". I said: "he did not read it" (personaly) Anyway you can not call this an "agreement" because he was forced to sign it!
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dragos
Posted: July 28, 2004 06:46 pm
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By the way, as mentioned in the links given by Dragos, neither parties were satified with the outcome. The Hungarians wanted a min. of 50,000 sq. km and received less, while the Rumanians (who already accepted the handover of approx. 6,000 sq. km) lost more


Poor Hungarians :cry:
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Victor
Posted: July 28, 2004 08:53 pm
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The important thing, for Hitler, was none of teh parties was satisfied and thus he had room to manipulate both of them. I think the real winner was Germany.
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Marius
Posted: July 29, 2004 09:41 am
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The important thing, for Hitler, was none of teh parties was satisfied and thus he had room to manipulate both of them. I think the real winner was Germany.


I agree! :keep:
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MAB38
Posted: November 15, 2004 06:01 pm
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Well Romania loses Transylvania and Hungary gets it...looks more like a diktat towards Romania than towards Hungary.
The Hungarians give the Germans a big KOSSONOM and take over a part of Romania without having to fire a single shot!
It was really a terrible diktat for the Magyars :-)



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Dénes
Posted: November 15, 2004 08:38 pm
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I am not sure if you're serious or only joking.

Nevertheless, just to remind you several issues discussed earlier in the thread:
Hungary did not "get" Transylvania in 1940, only a lesser half (called Northern Transyvania). Rumania kept the larger half (called Southern Transyvania).
If you still insist to call the 2nd Vienna Award a "diktat", then it was a "diktat" equally for Rumania and Hungary alike, as Germany and Italy decided on the partition of Transylvania, without asking the two parties' opinion.
If you intended to write 'thank you' in Hungarian, it's actually köszönöm, not kossonom.

For more details, check the previous posts in this thread.

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 15, 2004 08:39 pm
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dragos
Posted: November 15, 2004 09:59 pm
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According to the meaning of diktat as "a harsh settlement unilaterally imposed (as on a defeated nation)" (source: britannica.com), for Hungary this settlement may have been unilaterally imposed, but not harsh, or Hungary was not the defeated nation in this business.
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