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> The encirclement of Army Group South at Stalingrad
Dénes
Posted: July 29, 2004 02:12 pm
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I just recalled that there were Transylvanian-Rumanian nobles, too. For example: George Pop de Basesti, leader of Partidului National Român, or Rumanian National Party (of Transylvania).

"George Pop de Basesti este descendentul unei familii nobiliare, fiu a lui Petre Pop de Basesti si al Susanei Pop de Turt , nascut la 1 august 1835."

Dénes
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Carol I
Posted: July 30, 2004 05:41 pm
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Miklós Horthy of Nagybánya (Baia Mare)

Do you happen to know when and why he received this particular title? Was he (or one of his ancestors if he inherited the title) from the area?
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Bernard Miclescu
Posted: July 30, 2004 05:55 pm
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It is off topic but since we are speaking about it... I read about a war veteran VR that he graduated the St Cyr military academy. Well, he took this name and now his family name sounds like this: Ionescu-Saint Cyr. But maybe you know about him....

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C-2
Posted: July 30, 2004 07:14 pm
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Corect,he was a friend of Gen Balta.
He died last year at about 90.
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Dénes
Posted: July 30, 2004 08:40 pm
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I think the above case is different, as that person simply took the name of a city, and did not own extended lands there (presumably was not a noble, either). While in the cases I mentioned the nobles had their names inherited after the lands their ancestors owned (notice also de difference in their names, namely the nobles had 'of' suffix after their family names, not just a hyphen). I'd say, for example, Prince 'Bâzu' Cantacuzino could have used as a suffix to his name 'Tescani', thus 'Cantacuzino of Tescani'. But I think this practice was used only in Transylvania, not in the 'Regat'.

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Carol I
Posted: July 31, 2004 06:57 pm
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I think the above case is different, as that person simply took the name of a city, and did not own extended lands there (presumably was not a noble, either).

Then it was something like the name of the Romanian actor Ştefan Mihăilescu-Brăila who was born in Brăila. Do you know why Miklós Horthy had Nagybánya (Baia Mare) added to his name? Was it his high rank in the Austro-Hungarian Army/Navy that brought him the 'von Nagybánya' or some other circumstance?

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While in the cases I mentioned the nobles had their names inherited after the lands their ancestors owned (notice also de difference in their names, namely the nobles had 'of' suffix after their family names, not just a hyphen). I'd say, for example, Prince 'Bâzu' Cantacuzino could have used as a suffix to his name 'Tescani', thus 'Cantacuzino of Tescani'. But I think this practice was used only in Transylvania, not in the 'Regat'.

I think the origins of the noble titles are somewhat varied. In the beginning they were indeed related to the lands owned by the person, but there are many cases, especially in the modern period when the noble titles had no relationship to the possessions of the person. This is because creating noble titles remained the privilege of the sovereign even in a period when the concept of private property was establishing more strongly. Thus, the title was nothing more than an indicator of status, not of origin.
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Dénes
Posted: July 31, 2004 11:57 pm
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Do you know why Miklós Horthy had Nagybánya (Baia Mare) added to his name?

No, vitéz nagybányai Horthy Miklós inherited it, as his noble ancestors had their lands around Nagybánya (Baia Mare). He was born at Kenderes, located in today's Hungary, though.

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Was it his high rank in the Austro-Hungarian Army/Navy that brought him the 'von Nagybánya' or some other circumstance??

No, he received only the vitéz (literally 'brave', approximately 'knight') title for his wartime deeds.

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I think the origins of the noble titles are somewhat varied. In the beginning they were indeed related to the lands owned by the person, but there are many cases, especially in the modern period when the noble titles had no relationship to the possessions of the person. This is because creating noble titles remained the privilege of the sovereign even in a period when the concept of private property was establishing more strongly. Thus, the title was nothing more than an indicator of status, not of origin.

Back then, in the XIXth Century and beyond, the noble title was still connected to land and thus to wealth.

Dénes
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Carol I
Posted: August 01, 2004 09:11 am
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No, vitéz nagybányai Horthy Miklós inherited it, as his noble ancestors had their lands around Nagybánya (Baia Mare). He was born at Kenderes, located in today's Hungary, though.

Thanks for the answer Dénes.
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Der Maresal
Posted: August 07, 2004 03:37 am
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What is that \"von\" anyway? Is it a title (decoration)?

It's a title, a 'von' belonged to a noble familly. It's the same in romanian, with 'de', such as Contele de Monte Cristo.

I even heard the name 'von Hitler' - his own translator called him that.. :D
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