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> The final assault on Berlin - Why did Germany loose the war?
Marius
Posted: July 23, 2004 11:30 pm
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On the 9th of June 1945, allmost one year after the allies land in Normandy, Germany was finally brought to its knees in front of the allied armada surrounding them.
There are still a few questions which remain unanswered:
1 Why did Germany atack the United Kingdom?
2 Why did Germany atack Russia without finishing the UK first?
3 Why did the Japoneese atack Pearl Harbour on the 7th of December 1941 instead of atacking Rusia from the east?
Kan anyone answer those questions???
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Dénes
Posted: July 24, 2004 03:33 am
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[quote]On the 9th of June 1945, allmost one year after the allies land in Normandy, Germany was finally brought to its knees in front of the allied armada surrounding them.[/quote]
I guess you actually meant the 9th of May 1945. BTW, hostilities officially ceased two days before, at 11 p.m.
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Victor
Posted: July 24, 2004 06:01 am
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That was in Western Germany. In teh East and in the Czech Republic, fighting carried on until 12 May, as many tried to reach teh Western Allies and escape prison in Russia.
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Bernard Miclescu
Posted: July 24, 2004 06:31 am
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Well Marius, your questions are too long to answer. There are too many probabilities either for the attack of the UK, for the URSS or for the Japanese attack against Pearl Harbour, and also too many conclusions.

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Marius
Posted: July 24, 2004 09:12 am
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In reply to Dénes:
Yes, of course it was 9th of May 1945, sorry. I was thinking of something else.
I am going to ask now: Could Germany, with its army and allies win the war? Of course it is just a " what if " scenario...
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Chandernagore
Posted: September 03, 2004 03:16 pm
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QUOTE
On the 9th of June 1945, allmost one year after the allies land in Normandy, Germany was finally brought to its knees in front of the allied armada surrounding them.
      There are still a few questions which remain unanswered:
1 Why did Germany atack the United Kingdom?
2 Why did Germany atack Russia without finishing the UK first?
3 Why did the Japoneese atack Pearl Harbour on the 7th of December 1941 instead of atacking Rusia from the east?
Kan anyone answer those questions???


My 5 cents :

1 Why did Germany atack the United Kingdom?

UK had declared war on Germany. So attacking the UK looked like a good idea :D

2 Why did Germany atack Russia without finishing the UK first?

Der magnificient Fuhrer could'nt bear to wait any longer for the crowning achievement of his political career : Lebensraum in the east. Besides, he could not "finish" the UK, he could not even land a pet dog on the British beaches.

3 Why did the Japoneese atack Pearl Harbour on the 7th of December instead of atacking Rusia from the east?

The Japanese had no business in attacking Russia for the sake of attacking Russia. Their main agenda was not in Siberia.
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mabadesc
Posted: September 03, 2004 08:27 pm
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Chandernagore wrote:

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UK had declared war on Germany. So attacking the UK looked like a good idea


Not necessarily a good idea. You don't attack for the sake of attacking. You wait until the moment is right.
The humiliating way the Brits were ousted out of Europe at Dunkirk was a great victory. On the other hand, the costly bomb raids over England were made too soon, IMO, and proved to be a mistake.

About Russia:

QUOTE
Der magnificient Fuhrer could'nt bear to wait any longer for the crowning achievement of his political career : Lebensraum in the east.


Without offense, that was a pretty superficial answer.
There are multiple theories on why Germany invaded USSR so soon. Victor Suvorov, along with many other historians, submit that the Soviets were preparing an attack and thus the Germans had no choice but to go with a pre-emptive strike.

About Japan:

QUOTE
The Japanese had no business in attacking Russia for the sake of attacking Russia. Their main agenda was not in Siberia.


AFAIK, the Japanese were afraid/reluctant to start a war with Russia, even though from an Axis standpoint it made perfect sense, and Hitler desperately wanted this.
If it had happened, it would have put the Soviets in Germany's shoes: fighting a two-front war. IMO USSR could not have resisted a German/Japanese two-front attack.
Hitler repeatedly tried to "bribe" Japan into getting involved in the Russian conflict. He did this by providing them with technology, rare and expensive supplies, etc... Unfortunately for Germany, they were not able to convince Japan.
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Chandernagore
Posted: September 03, 2004 11:44 pm
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QUOTE
QUOTE
Der magnificient Fuhrer could'nt bear to wait any longer for the crowning achievement of his political career : Lebensraum in the east.


Without offense, that was a pretty superficial answer.
There are multiple theories on why Germany invaded USSR so soon. Victor Suvorov, along with many other historians, submit that the Soviets were preparing an attack and thus the Germans had no choice but to go with a pre-emptive strike.


Nice try but it doesnt fly. Hitler had no defensive scheme on his mind when he launched Barbarossa. The political thoughts of the man were drawing him into eradicating the Soviet Union, because he vomited the idea of Communism, because his racial hierarchy put the Russians at the bottom of mankind and because the vast steppes of Russia contained the space and ressources he desired for the German nation. So when I say that attacking Russia was the crowning achievement of his life, I mean it and not superficially. Now the importance of this task in his sick mind and the fact that he feared not to be able to achieve it in his lifetime certainly is a factor in his bad timing.
Cheers :D
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dragos
Posted: September 04, 2004 12:21 am
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Not denying that Hitler was a psychotic, I still don't think he was so schizophrenic that just to declare war in order to conquer land. The whole pholosophy was good for manipulating masses, but did he fell in his own propagandistic trap? Most likely as other insane dictators. But the pre-(eastern)war politics of spheres of influences were quite serious (like post war too).
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Matt820
Posted: September 12, 2004 03:52 am
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Another reason Japan bombed Pearl Harbor instead of creating a front against Russia was the Americans by that time were strongly considering the war. The Japanese knew they were dead if the Americans unleashed the full power of their Navy against them so they bombed Pearl Harbor in hopes of crippling their fleet and giving the Imperial Army a chance.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but the Japanese tried to take Russia during Napoleanic times. The Russian winter thwarted their plan (I beleive). The Japanese may of had second thoughts becuase of past experiances.
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Chandernagore
Posted: September 12, 2004 08:54 am
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QUOTE
Forgive me if I'm wrong but the Japanese tried to take Russia during Napoleanic times. The Russian winter thwarted their plan (I beleive). The Japanese may of had second thoughts becuase of past experiances.


You're probably confusing with something else. Commodore Perry opened Japan for international trade by intimidation only in 1853, before that the Japanese didn't give a damn about the rest of the world. The major clash between Japan and Russia was the war of 1905 which left Russia suing for peace. No, I think the Nomhonan incident gave the Japanese second thoughts... or confirmed the first thoughts :D
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Victor
Posted: September 12, 2004 10:01 am
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The Japanese interests did not lay in Siberia, but in the Pacific and the major powers they had to confront were the US and the UK. From memory, in December 1941, they had oil reserves only for 6 months of war, so the main target were the Dutch East Indies. Besides, after Khalin Gol, where the Zhukov taught the Japanese a little about modern tank warfare, I do not think they were so eager to challenge the SU too soon.
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dead-cat
Posted: September 13, 2004 04:19 pm
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QUOTE

Nice try but it doesnt fly. Hitler had no defensive scheme on his mind when he launched Barbarossa. The political thoughts of the man were drawing him into eradicating the Soviet Union, because he vomited the idea of Communism, because his racial hierarchy put the Russians at the bottom of mankind and because the vast steppes of Russia contained the space and ressources he desired for the German nation.


as long England wasn't defeated, Hitler wasn't keen to go to war with the SU. actually, until mid-1940 (when the quick allied breakdown in France began to show) the relationship with the SU was quite good.

Lenin used to say that the SU, in order to survive the hostily of the "imperialistic alliance", would have to embrace a occasionaly a cooperative strategy, if it served her survival, understanding that the SU, in the 20ies and 30ies had no chance whatsoever against a combined "capitalistic" effort.

but the ultimate goal was "freeing the working class from the imperialistic subjugation" and one CP congress in 20ies concluded that "every war of the SU (implicit an agressive war) is a just war because it serves the goal of freeing the working class".

so when Hitler attacked France, Stalin hoped that the war would be long and resource consuming. he was very dissapointed of the quick breakdown in the west. during summer 1940 he was unofficially supporting england politically, thereby strengthening their determination to resist.

Also his support of Hungary against Romania (which, accorind to the Ribentropp-Molotov pact "belonged" to the german sphere of interest), well knowing that the german army was dependant of romanian oil and the support of the pro-british fraction in Yugoslavia, showed Hitler that his back wasn't free anymore. so he realized that, in order to defeat england, whose military situation was precarious in 1940-41, he would have to go to war with the SU.
it was more a necesity derived from the political and military realities of 1940/41 than a clash of ideologies.

the timing of the attack however, showed that it was a preemtiv strike and the success enjoyed in the initial phase was only possible because he caught the red army during her (critical) deployment phase.
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Chandernagore
Posted: September 13, 2004 08:44 pm
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QUOTE
in order to defeat england, whose military situation was precarious in 1940-41, he would have to go to war with the SU.


I fail to see how war with the SU was supposed to break England. The British were quite happy to see Germany's attention slip away from them.

QUOTE
it was more a necesity derived from the political and military realities of 1940/41 than a clash of ideologies.


This I disagree with but it would be hard to come up with a simple rebuttal. Those political and military realities were created by the nazis themselves whose leader had by any definition an intensely ideological view of the world. He spoke and wrote abundantly enough about it.

QUOTE
the timing of the attack however, showed that it was a preemtiv strike


It's hard to come up with solid evidence for this. By the same standards we could also say that the Napoleon's wars were all preemptive, that the Mongols attack of China was preemptive or that the Zulu war resulted from a British preemptive strike.
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Dénes
Posted: September 14, 2004 02:02 am
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In my view, the German war against the USSR was not pre-emptive, as it was planned for long time. It was rather simultaneous, or parallel to the Soviet Army build-up, which undoubtedly would have resulted in a Westward attack at a latter date, to "free the workers and farmers under the Imperialist yoke". It was only a timing issue that the Germans stroke first.

Dénes
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