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Victor
Posted: July 29, 2003 08:45 am
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There was an article written by Tesu Solomovici in Ziua a couple of weeks ago. Try looking for it on the online edition. The book was published by Hasefer but was then melted. I will try to find the newspaper, but Idonot think I will be able to find it, since I do not keep newspapers that old.
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Victor
Posted: July 29, 2003 08:45 am
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There was no official policy to exterminate an entire population.


During the meeting of the Council of Ministers on 8 July 1941, Mihai Antonescu said:

With the risk of not being understood by some traditionalists who may be among you, I am for the forced migration of the Jewish element from Bessarabia and Bukovina, which must be thrown over the border. The same for the Ukrainian element. [. . .] We do not know over how many years the Romanian people will have such liberty of action, with the possibility of ethnic cleansing.

In July and August 1941, the Jews from the rural areas were brought in the ghettos in Cernauti and Chisinau. During this operation there were many executions: 411 at Vistierniceni (1 August), 210 out of a convoy of 300 in the Storojinet county (night of 4/5 August), 325 from the Chininau ghetto at Ghidighici (between 9 and 15 August), 451 in the Tataresti camp etc, etc.

I already showed what the instructions for the convoys were and how they were supposed to deal with those that could not keep up (which of course can be a very arbitrary decision). Between 110,033 Jews were deported to Trans-Dnestra. Only 101 (!!!) remained in Bessarabia and 19,475 in Bukovina (most in Cernauti, thanks to the mayor Traian Popovici, who saved many lives during those troubled times).

According to the 1930 statistics, there were 275,419 Jews in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. The next counting was done in September 1941. There were about 126,000. An estimate of 100,000 fled to the SU. So that leaves 49,419 missing Jews. In September 1943 there were still alive 50,741 in Trans-Dnestra. The number of the ones that died following the treatment they received was 59,292. If we add the two figures we get 108,711. The number of Ukrainian Jews killed in Trans-Dnestra is unknown to me. I have seen an estimate of about 130,000, but it was not detailed.

There is also the Gipsy problem. 24,617 were deported to Trans-Dnestra, that is 9,38% of the total number. 11,441 were nomads and 12,176 had convictions or had no occupation. About half of them died there.

The death of over 100,000 Romanian Jews (plus the number of Ukrainian Jews) and of 12,000 Gypsies seems to me like official policy to exterminate them.

The 1948 Convention of the United Nations defines genocide like this:
It is one of the acts mentioned below, committed with the intention to destroy totally or partially a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by:
a). assassination of its members
B). severely damaging their physical and mental integrity
c). purposely submitting it to conditions of existence which lead to their total or partial physical destruction


The 420,000 number seems indeed very high and does not have material support (no documents have yet been indicated for this number), but there was a genocide, whether we like it or not.
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Victor
Posted: July 29, 2003 08:45 am
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The pogrom in Iasi – June 1941

On 28 June, at about 2130 hours, shots were fired in different points of the city. At about 0300 hours a Romanian column was "attacked" on Lascar Catargiu street and another one on Lapusneanu street. There were no casualties. The neighborhood was thoroughly searched and nothing was found, according to gen. Leoveanu's report. He concluded that it was an attack with blanks (the tubes were found) and firecrackers which imitated machine-gun fire. Gen. Leoveanu considered that the attackers were legionnaires or robbers wanting to create panic in order to able to loot.

The Germans claimed that they had 20 casualties, but did not allow gen. Leoveanu to verify this and he concluded that they had none.

Thousands of Jews were taken to the police stations. On the road some were executed by German soldiers and SSI detachments. Others were massacred (the term used by the Leoveanu's report) by a German unit in the police station's yard.

As a result, brig. gen. Gheorghe Stavrescu (CO of the 14th Infantry Division) ordered the evacuation of arrested Jews to Calarasi, jud. Ialomita. 4,430 Jews were shoved into two trains (in cattle wagons). They had no water. The first one reached its destination 168 hours later, although it generally needed about 12. At least 2,521 Jews died on those trains.
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inahurry
Posted: July 29, 2003 01:19 pm
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Yes, French fighting to free their country were considered terrorists by the Germans. As much as, hypothetically speaking, an occupying force in Romania would consider those who resist terrorists once the official government surrendered. Americans have no qualm in killing anyone fighting them in Iraq, after the war officially ended, only the last major mopping up operation claimed 400 Iraqi lives, according to American sources quoted by news agencies.
The problem wasn’t and isn’t those guerillas who are killed in action and not so much the fate of those captured and who were usually executed (they still often are even in present days, especially where there’s no one to witness – see the mass murdering of fighters in the Islamic Legion in Afghanistan after they surrendered – I think it’s the latest example of this scale), it is assumed these people know what they’re doing and accept the possible consequences of their actions. The problem was and is the immorality of taking civilian hostages and possibly executing them in the place of those actually involved in a guerilla type action. Also, the deliberate terror operations in order to intimidate and subdue civilian population weren’t and aren’t exactly legal, not to mention moral, but it is common practice. And to make matters worse, the fact that WW2 laws of war permitted to some extent such actions. This is probably why all occupying force is willing to find some puppet regime to do the dirty work in its place because a puppet regime is more “legally” entitled to punish its subjects and also has a much wider array of laws and regulations it can invoke. Even if the brutality and expedience of war time executions is hard to be equaled an occupational/puppet regime can have much more devastating effect on the respective population – see the dark decade in Romania after 1945. Also, though it’s a rather trivial truth, it is comparatively easier to find those responsible (or to blame some) when a country loses the war.
Funny thing Romanians lose all the wars even those they win militarily (see Berlin treaty -–1878, the post WW1 obligations, even the WW2 harsh conditions despite or maybe exactly because of the traitorous August 23 act, and the complete devastation after 1989 cold war end, again it didn’t pay a dime to stand up against Russians in 1968, for example). But we also had an admirable survivalist quality though I think we are wearing thin after so many generations of “sacrifice”.
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inahurry
Posted: July 29, 2003 01:30 pm
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Interesting, opposing 1948 UN definitions to WW2 is about the same with pretending to enforce 1949 and beyond Geneva conventions to the same PREVIOUS WW2 period.

Romania was forced to accept massive Jewish migration as a condition for its existance as a modern state. Migration from those areas were the Jews were mass murdered.

Obviously if there was an intention to exterminate the entire Jewish population no one would have mentioned only the migration of part of it. And ignoring the context - the attacks on the Romanian authorites in exactly those provinces that spread a wide resentment would be a mistake.

Would be a too long story to analyze that remark in the wider context of what was meant by "the final solution" in Germany, what influence those ideas had how they evolved and what was ultimately their implementation. A too long story not only because of the risks but because the roots of the problem are to be found in the second half of 19th century.

Anyway, was the Romanian Army, as an institution, not rogue elements, involved in a genocidal activity ?
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inahurry
Posted: July 29, 2003 02:06 pm
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"According to the 1930 statistics, there were 275,419 Jews in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. The next counting was done in September 1941. There were about 126,000. An estimate of 100,000 fled to the SU. So that leaves 49,419 missing Jews. In September 1943 there were still alive 50,741 in Trans-Dnestra. The number of the ones that died following the treatment they received was 59,292. If we add the two figures we get 108,711. The number of Ukrainian Jews killed in Trans-Dnestra is unknown to me. I have seen an estimate of about 130,000, but it was not detailed. "

Goodness, man, only by substracting statistics from 3 different years for 2 different regions, admitting an unkown migratory factor plus undetermined forced transfer and the result you get, ignoring the 1944 battlefields and the post war turmoil and you draw the conclusion 100,000 or more people were exterminated.

I suppose you have an idea how the revisionists, on a much more thorough research determined, from the statistics mainly, the impossibility that 6,000,000 ever be present in German or German controlled territories. Thank you very much, but substracting statistics, even in much more stable times, proves nothing about WHAT happened with the missing numbers, assuming those numbers would be accurate.
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Victor
Posted: July 30, 2003 08:54 am
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QUOTE
Interesting, opposing 1948 UN definitions to WW2 is about the same with pretending to enforce 1949 and beyond Geneva conventions to the same PREVIOUS WW2 period


Just because the definition was given in 1948, it does not mean that it was genocide? MyGod,are you that cynical?

QUOTE
Anyway, was the Romanian Army, as an institution, not rogue elements, involved in a genocidal activity?


To this question I cannot give an answer since I have not seen enough information on the subject. My opinion is that generalizing is bad and one cannot blame an entire nation (and there are some that do) for what happened. The individuals responsible must be pointed out. The same for the army.

QUOTE
Goodness, man, only by substracting statistics from 3 different years for 2 different regions, admitting an unkown migratory factor plus undetermined forced transfer and the result you get, ignoring the 1944 battlefields and the post war turmoil and you draw the conclusion 100,000 or more people were exterminated


There was no "undetermined forced transfer". 110,033 Jews were deported to Trans-Dnestra (as I already posted; did you bother to read all?). Since in September 1943 there were still 50,741, this means that 59,292 died there due to the treatment they received. To me it is very logical and I do not see what 1944 has to do with anything here.

As for the number of Jews that died before the deportations started (mainly in executions), that is probably not very accurate and German soldiers were also responsible for some of the killings. But there were executions committed by the Romanian army as it reentered Bessarabia.
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inahurry
Posted: July 30, 2003 02:48 pm
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I bothered, yes. But I didn't bother to dispute an affirmation, because this what it is.

No, I am not cynical, even if I were I don't see how it would be your business if I am cynical, choleric, phlegmatic, hedonist, wagnerian, vegetarian or whatever, something else matters. Mass deportation or "voluntary" flee before an ennemy you fear (serbs "voluntarily" fled in just 1 week period from Krajna when the Croats attacked - the conservative estimates say 200,000 of them are still displaced from their native land) is not genocide although is to be condemned. (About selective condemnations there's surely no need to insist, they are common practice). You were refering to "ethnic cleansing" , even if today the notions are twisted to the various whims, the forced migration as such is not genocide. So if you want to mix all notions and decree everything is genocide, suit yourself. If you want to oppose definitions and political stances occuring from those definitions (and charts, treaties, etc.) that were adopted AFTER the events, suit yourself.
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Whodareswings
Posted: March 04, 2004 07:47 pm
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[quote]Dénes wrote :

[quote]Matatias Carp: 'Cartea Neagra - Suferintele evreilor din Romania, 1940-1944', Societatea Nationala de Editura si Arte Grafice 'Dacia Traiana', Bucuresti, 1947 & 1948.
[/quote]

[quote]I don't know how accurate those allegations are, so a certain amount of awareness is recommended.
[/quote]

Oh... There's a lot of litterature about the "Romanian Holocaust"! To see how correct Matatias's allegations may be, check the "key" years of publications and also the fact that Matatias Carp was writing propaganda articles for "Signal" magazine during 1941-1944! I personally saw his name in a 1943 French edition of this magazine... When I'll find the exact coordonates, I'll give them.

Best regards,

Getu'[/quote]





I am researching the Legionary revolt of Jan 21-23, l941 in Bucharest. Specifically, I am tracing the various sources for the account the event at the municipal abbattoir in Bucharest in which it is claimed anywhere from 11-200 Jews were killed in an particularly grisly manner by maurading Legionaries.
I would like to know more about Mataias Carp's career as a propagandist, mentioned above, as his book Cartea Neagra is inevitably cited to verify this atrocity. I can't find any reference to this event in the the English translation posted on the Internet, published by Simon
Books. I assume the Romanian original must have it because it appears as a footnote in so many texts about the Holocaust in Romania and about the crimes committed during the Legionary rebellion.
Can anyone provide me with more information about the reliability of Matatias Carp?
Ex-Legionaries have stated that the famous story of the abattoir was 1. invented by Eugen Cristescu (Pe marginea prapestiei). Invented by the Soviet propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg who also wrote a book entitled Cartea Neagra. 3. Invented by the American foreign correspondents Leigh White and Robert St, John. 4. That it was actually some dead Legionaries dragged off the street and found hanging on hooks there not Jews.
I am confused about the location of this municipal abattoir. Carp says it was in the Spaiul Unrii. Dr. Radu Ioanid places it on Pantelimon and Fendeni avenues in Bucharestii Noi. I.C. Butnaru has it in Baneasa. In many other accounts that I have read the location is given as Straulesti. Are Straulesti, Baneasa, Bucharestii Noi and the Spaiul Unrii all in the same geographical area?
German army photo documentation is often mentioned, but I can't find any at either Yad Vashem or the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. Any further information in Matatias Carp or additional source material for this event would be welcomed.
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C-2
Posted: March 04, 2004 08:18 pm
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Straulesti,Baneasa and Bucurestii Noi are in the same area.In the North of town,
Spaiul Unirii is in the center.
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Victor
Posted: March 04, 2004 08:36 pm
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The figure for the Jews killed during the rebellion is 118.
To the Forensic Institute in Bucharest were brought 212 bodies during 21-23 January: 109 Jews, 6 Germans, 2 Hungarians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 93 Romanians. The places from where these people were brought were: Victory Way, National Theatre Square, Police Prefecture, Bonaparte Boulevard, the Slaughterhouse, Mihai Bravu road, Jilava, Emergency Hospital, Filantropia hospital, Polizu Hospital, Coltea Hospital etc, etc.

Apparently 11 bodies were found at the Slaughterhouse (Abator).
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Whodareswings
Posted: March 05, 2004 07:33 am
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QUOTE
The figure for the Jews killed during the rebellion is 118.
To the Forensic Institute in Bucharest were brought 212 bodies during 21-23 January: 109 Jews, 6 Germans, 2 Hungarians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 93 Romanians. The places from where these people were brought were:  Victory Way, National Theatre Square, Police Prefecture, Bonaparte Boulevard, the Slaughterhouse, Mihai Bravu road, Jilava, Emergency Hospital, Filantropia hospital, Polizu Hospital, Coltea Hospital etc, etc.

Apparently 11 bodies were found at the Slaughterhouse (Abator).


I believe these numbers are from the footnotes to Chapter Three in Dinu Giurescu's ROMANIA IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR (1939-1945). Do you have the book he cites in footnote 64 (The Romanian Right Wing Radiography 1927-1941, FF Press, Bucharest, 1996) for the 11 Jews brought from the slaughterhouse to the Medico-Legal Institute for autopsy?

Are any names and domiciles of these 11 victims listed there, or in The Martyrdom of the Jews of Romania 1940-1941 Documents and Testimonies, Hasefer, Bucharest , l991, pp.69-71 which is cited in the following footnote no. 64 ?

Can you provide anymore information for me about these 11 victims? Coroner's or police reports on age, gender, and method of murder?
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Victor
Posted: March 05, 2004 07:50 am
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Can you provide anymore information for me about these 11 victims? Coroner's or police reports on age, gender, and method of murder?


Sorry, no.
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Whodareswings
Posted: March 06, 2004 12:36 am
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DECLARATION
I, Darasteanu I. Constantin, born July 28th, 1914, in the village of Stoinesti, in the county of Vlasca (today Giurgiu), living in Bucharest, ............, aware of the sanctions of article 292 in the Penal Code, referring to lying in one’s declarations, state the following:
In January 1941, I worked at the Aerial Base No. 3 Pipera (later named ASAM) as team captain, (principal master of mounting)?, and airplane constructor, at that time, I had been on the job for 3 (three) years. On the day of January 24th, 1941, I had a discussion with another worker by the name of Preda Petre, called Drusca, a mechanic, who in the preceding days, January 21-23, has been missing from the work place: He was a Legionary and had participated in the rebellion. He told me that at the abattoir, there were the dead bodies of some Legionaries hung in hooks, of which it is affirmed to be the bodies of some Jews killed by Legionaries. I reported what I found from Preda Petre to my engineer commandant Constantinescu Cristea and asked him what he thinks should be done. The Commandant answered me that he doesn’t know what we should do and to whom to report the findings, but before anything, such information needs to be verified. He recommended me to take the mini-van (a Skoda) with which we gathered our provisions of meat from the abattoir, and go there, at the abattoir, to find out the truth. I mention that at that time, I made frequent reports on technical subjects, for the magazine "Broken Wings-Romanian Wings", led by commandant Emil Garleanu (relative with the writer by the same name), who had become a general. I left with the driver, a soldier on guard, who knew the abattoir well, where we arrived and entered through the main gate, saying that we were only there to get meat for our people, like usual. We then entered, and we noticed that almost nobody was working, everybody walking around, from group to group, they talked nervously, with gravity in their voice. I tried to start a discussion with them, but they seemed to pull away, and when I asked them if it was true that, somewhere, in the butchery, there were some people, some Jews, hung in hooks, they wouldn’t answer. They told me to be more discreet and prudent. One of them, whom the others called "Mister Vasile" and who was the head of one of the teams of butchers, answered me: "Yes, sir, but they’re not Jews, they’re Romanians!" The driver who came with me knew him and introduced us: his name was Stoica Vasile. He showed me the direction in which the bodies were and told me to not be seen by the bosses of the abattoir or by their men. At about 50 meters I found the spot, where I arrived alone, without anyone. I counted the bodies hung in hooks, they were 11 or 21, I forgot the exact number, I only know it ends in 1. Near the wall there was another pile of bodies, with their clothes dirty with mud and blood. The bodies hung in hooks had coats on them, one still with the hat on (a simple, peasant, fur hat). I moved the coat a little on the first three bodies and I saw each one’s mortal wound, from which blood had flown and had stained the clothing. The third body had a green, Legionary shirt underneath his coat. I didn’t touch the other bodies, and I returned to the driver. He was talking to Mister Vasile, whom I asked: "Mister Vasile, who are these people?" He answered that they are Legionaries shot by the army, that around the abattoir more Legionaries had been shot, and that these Legionaries were gathered form the street by trustworthy people of the bosses of the abattoir, at their command, and gathered in the abattoir, where they were hung in hooks and declared Jews killed by Legionaries. I am restating the words of Vasile Stoica: "They are not Jews, sir, they are Legionaries shot by Antonescu, and the Jews from the abattoir, with the help of their men, pulled them from the street into the abattoir, they hung them in the hooks and are claiming they are Jews." I mention that at that time, the abattoir was an administrative society, controlled by Jews. Mister Vasile also mentioned: "Our Jews, who lead the abattoir." Also, I mention that I told the driver that, if he wanted, to go and see for himself the people hung in hooks, but Mister Vasile stopped him, telling him it’s not good, since some of the "people upstairs" noticed the movement we have made and are now watching us. I asked Mister Vasile if he was willing to declare the things that happened at the abattoir for other people as well, in case it would ever be necessary. He said he agreed, and he gave me his address –he lived by the abattoir, on the Splai, and after that I visited him many times and we became friends. I found out that after that, the Army removed the bodies from the abattoir and took them in the forest Padurea Plumbuita. My visit to the abattoir took about 15-20 minutes. When I left, I took a load of meat for my troop, more pork bellies than anything else.
When I returned to the base, I went to the commandant and I told him what happened. The commandant considered that it is his job to report this further. I retreated from his office and went into the mounting room, in the main hangar. An hour and a half later, the commandant came to me and told me that he had called the Council of Ministers, at Horia Sima’s office, and asked to talk to him. They told him: "Comrade Horia Sima no longer exists, nobody knows where he is." I mention that in the following days, the rumor about the killing and the hanging of the Jews in the abattoir went around, but nobody took it seriously. Even the simplest women from the Bucharest crowd kept asking "why don’t the Jews tell Antonescu about the happenings?" I mention that I wasn’t a member of the Legionary Movement, but, similarly to many colleagues of mine from the aviation, we sympathized, as a Romanian and a Christian, the ideas of Corneliu Zelea Codreanu. Also, I mention that I was condemned after 1944 for "the crime of going against social order" and I went to prison for 11 years. I met Vasile Stoica many times after that, the last time, I think, being in 1970. He had a boy who may still be alive. I mention that I met Professor Ion Coja on the day of December 20th, 2003, when I met him to tell the above happenings. The meeting was disturbed my Mister Neagoe Nicolae Mateescu and Dogaru Victor-Dorian, to whom I told the happenings from the abattoir and agreed that I have to tell this to Professor Ion Coja as well, whom I knew from TV. I agreed to meet with him and tell him all of this paper, which I sign fully aware of its importance. I give the present declaration to serve anywhere it may be needed.
Printed and signed in 6 copies.
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Whodareswings
Posted: March 09, 2004 05:02 pm
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In Volume II, DOCUMENTS CONCERNING THE FATE OF ROMANIAN JEWRY DURING THE HOLOCAUST, Dr. Jean Ancel, Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York, 1982-87 pp. 197 the abattoir is indicated as being in Baneasa. This page is a reproduction of a newspaper article apparently published in l945 commemorating the events of January 1941.

On page 299 in a report drawn up on March 8. 1941 by W. Filderman and M. Carp the abattoir is located at Spaaiul Uniri. The typewritten text is practically illegible, but there appears to be 9 names with domiciles listed.

Despite the different locations for the abattoir given, the Filderman/Carp document seems to contradict the declaration of the eyewitness quoted above.

I would think that since this highly exaggerated atrocity story is repeated so often in Romanian WWII history books to suggest a national propensity for barbarism that some Romanian historiographer would want to at least deconstruct it, of not refute it completely.
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