| QUOTE |
| Yes, sorry i forgot to mention, i found the information in the book "La chaisse du nouit"... i don't know if i spelled right |
Corect spelling " La chasse de nuit ..." as my old knowledge in french from elementary school help sometimes
Dan.
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > ARR - Romanian Royal Aeronautics > RAF/Commonwealth operations over Romania |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 23, 2005 02:13 am |
| I start here, with the great help of Cantacuzino (Dan) a topic on RAF/Commonwealth missions over Romania. There were recce, bombing and the less known mining the Danube missions. Any help and information shared will be appreciated. If there are confusions or erroneous sources it's a good place to clear them. I begin with the structure of RAF 205 Group based in Italy around Foggia, the only British air group in WWII operating under foreign command (15th USAAF) and the only (?) RAF bombing force to be dispatched over Romania. The 205 Group Royal Air Force as in July 1944 231 Wing ("Wellington X"), Italy - 37 Squadron, Tortorella, Italy - 70 Squadron, Foggia, Italy 236 Wing ("Wellington X"), Italy - 40 Squadron, Foggia, Italy - 104 Squadron, Foggia, Italy 240 Wing, Italy - 178 Squadron ("Liberator VI"), Amendola, Italy - 614 Squadron ("Halifax BII"), Amendola, Italy 330 Wing ("Wellington X"), Italy - 142 Squadron, Regina, Italy - 150 Squadron, Regina, Italy 2 (SAAF) Wing ("Liberator VI"), Italy - 31 (SAAF) Squadron, Celone, Italy - 34 (SAAF) Squadron, Celone, Italy (Source: http://www.airpower.at) Those units were involved in 16 bomb missions over Romania and I hope we will get into every mission to find out the targets they had, the losses, the defense against them and so on. But the first RAF/Commonwealth missions over Romania were of reconnaissance. Dozens of such missions were flown with Mosquitos for example, in '43-'44. I hope we will also get into that too. Below you'll find a map with the targets of 150 Squadron of RAF 205 Group, including Romania (source: http://www.perth.igs.net/~long/maxrange.htm) You will find Bucharest, Ploiesti, Campina, Giurgiu, Craiova, Turnu Severin and Timisoara on the map. The RAF 205 Group lost 34 Wellington X bombers, 4 Halifax and 10 Liberators in those 16 missions over Romania (source: an article published by Aeronautica Magazine - shared to me by Dan Melinte - which I will translate in fragments in future posts). Cheers, Barbosu |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 23, 2005 02:49 am |
| Wellington of 150 SQ (205 group) recovered years ago from Comana Lake Cantacuzino posted on other topic (Ploiesti, Bucharest ...) some photos of pieces recovered from the wreck of a Wellington crashed into the lake Comana, some 30 km from Bucharest. (Admins, please consider the opportunity to move RAF related posts into this topic. Thanks) I translated an article dedicated to this Wellington from Comana (published in Aeronautica magazine and kindly shared to me by Dan Melinte). The article "The bomber in the Comana lake", written in Aeronautica (magazine) by col. eng. Constantin Orasanu, is dedicated to a Wellington crashed in the night of the 6th to 7th of May 1944. The number of the plane is IA 525 Q (the article also name the plane IA 5250) and was part of 150 Squadron (330 Wing, RAF 205 Group, based in Foggia, Italy) Here is the translation (there are a few notes marked with TN - translator's note. the titles are from the original article) THE BOMBER FROM COMANA LAKE by col. eng. Constantin Orasanu "PROBABLY THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED It was the night of 6 to 7th of May 1944. A clear sky night, an advantage for the British bombers of the 205 Group in mission over Bucharest. They'd come a 1000 km long way from Foggia, Italy, to drop the deadly cargoes over the Capital of Romania. The navigators of the Wellingtons MC X announced some 30 km to the target. The bombers were regrouping in attack formation when the inevitable happened. The fighters defending the Capital engage the British bombers. A fierce battle of life or death begins. The IA 5250 is hit by a salvo and the right engine gets on fire immediately. The crew commander, pilot S. Clarke realize they were lost. With both engines working would be easy to climb then drop the bombs and with the bomber lighter he could get back to base. But with only one engine and the other one in flames, continuing the mission would be impossible, virtually a suicide. He takes a right turning looking for a place to land. He must try the impossible and God seems to be on his side. Right in front of him was an open field. With the landing gear down he take the approach. In seconds the bomber will touch the land, but fatality: the landing gear collapses and the plane roll over on it's back. S. Clarke understood in those last moments that the "open field" was in fact a lake. A few days after the crash, the people from the near village pulled out the crew members and buried them in the Comana cemetery. After 1945 they were moved to British Heroes Cemetery in Tancabesti, near Snagov and Bucharest. (...) LOOKING FOR A B24 AND YOU FIND A WELLINGTON (...) 48 years passed. In 1992, three people from Giugiu rent some gear and go to Comana lake to escavate a B24 Liberator and to sell to the scrapyard the tones of metal they imagined to find on the bottom of the lake. The lake drained in that place and it was easy for them to rise the camp and start the work. So Vili Mosor and his friends escavate pieces of the wreck, aluminum and cloth. They find an engine and they try to dismantle it with the hammers. Things could go like this till the total destruction of the wreck if they wouldn't have found a bomb. With some spoons they dug around it and, ignoring the death danger they drag it out with cables. The local police is called and then the Military Air Command and the Museum of Aviation. The press came in SOTI TV, World Service (BBC? - T.N.) and others. Everybody waits the American bomber to be dug out. The operation conducted by the Military Air Command and The Museum of Aviation started on August 26 and ended on September 10. On the engine already pulled out they discovered a metal plate indicating it's type Hercules. Shock! The engine was British made! This and other discoveries determined the archaeologists to call the British Embassy in Bucharest. And the Embassy promptly provided all details available. That's how the archaeologists found out that they were working on a two engine Wellington MK X from the RAF 205 Group, 330 Wing, 150 Squadron, crashed in one the missions flown over Romania from the base in Foggia, Italy. In the night of 6to 7th of May 1944 the plane was intercepted on its way to Bucharest, over Comana village. It was shot in the right engine, got fire and, flying at a low altitude, the crew did not have the necessary time to drop the bombs and save with the parachutes. After a tour around Comana, the pilot try to land and in contact with the lake surface, he lost control and the plane rolled over, trapping the entire crew. Because of the fire and the explosion danger, the villagers could not save the survivors if there were any. For the archaeologists were very important the informations on the bomb load of the plane. So they found that the bomb compartment was under the cell, specially made of two metal beams with three sections of 6 holders each. In the case of 250 lb bombs (113 kg) there could be loaded 18 pieces. The plane was loaded according to the mission and the distance to be flown. In the operation book of 150 Squadron it is written that the IA 525 Q bomber crashed at Comana carried three 500 lb bombs (226 kg) and 2 or 3 250 lb (113 kg) bombs. There were found and destroyed the three 500 lb bombs and two 250 lb bombs. Because the operation book states "2 or 3 250 lb bombs" it is uncertain if a third bomb - never found on the crash zone - was on the plane or not. THE PLANE'S WRECK The plane was buried 0,5 to 1,5 meters in the mud (...) After the firsts layers there were found elements of the bombs section and the structure of the fuselage. The bombs were found 1,2 to 1,4 meters deep in the mud spread on a 20 sq m wide area. They found also rounds of 0,303 inch, 70 in the front guns and 69 empty cartridges, that prove the air fight. The second engine was recovered from the backyard of Gheorghe Bocanete, in Comana village. (...) (T.N. - here the article mentions the wreck pieces found at Comana, like broken elements of the board, electrical wires, interior inscriptions, the oil radiators of the engines, an oxygen recipient for the rescue boat and so on). There were never found the metal elements of the wings, rear part of the fuselage, the pilot cabin, the front and rear turrets and their machine guns nor the ammunition (...), the landing gear, elements of the cabins of navigator, bombaimer or gunners. Probably all those parts were taken during the 48 years by people from the near villages (...). The wreck was transported to Otopeni at the Museum of Aviation. The engines are to be renovated at Turbomecanica factory (T.N. - at the day when the article was written). As for the third bomb if there was one, the local Police established a restricted zone and announced the people. WHAT THE VILLAGERS SAY? The elders from Comana are divided into two sides regarding the crash in the lake. Some say the plane crashed at dawn, May 7 1944 and that it was a four engine plane, with tin body (they remember how they cut the rivets to rip off the tin). Others say the plane crashed at night, in the 6 to 7th of May. One could wonder if they are talking of two different planes, both crashed in Comana lake. In that case it's possible there was also an American four engine B-24 bomber. " (source: Aeronautica, romanian magazine) This is the only photo ilustrating the article, showing the engine from the backyard of Bocanete. Cheers, Barbosu |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 23, 2005 07:19 am | ||
The four engine plane was probably one of the B-24's ( 15th Air Force) lost on 7th may and crashed near Budeni village boarding lake Comana. ( was not in the lake and local people could cut the rivetts and take souvenirs) Dan. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 23, 2005 07:25 am | ||
Below it's British Heroes Cemetery Tancabesti picture. Courtesy Dan Melinte. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 23, 2005 07:26 am | ||
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| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 23, 2005 07:34 am |
| And below the burrial stones of 3 crew members of the Wellington crashed in Comana Lake. ( courtesy Dan Melinte) 1.Warant Officer S. Clarke - pilot ( 27 years old) 2.Sergent L.W. Cox - navigator 3. Sergent R.P. Scott - radio ( 20 years old) |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 23, 2005 12:30 pm |
| Great thread, by the way i wanna make plans for a trip to Corbii Mari, resting place of a Landacster. I know somme people there and they said to me that they prepared information for when i get there. Is not verry far from Bucharest. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 23, 2005 12:55 pm | ||
Are you sure it's a Lancaster. (four engines like B-24) ? You find that info from a book ? Dan. |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 23, 2005 12:58 pm |
| Yes, sorry i forgot to mention, i found the information in the book "La chaisse du nouit"... i don't know if i spelled right. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 23, 2005 01:53 pm | ||
Corect spelling " La chasse de nuit ..." as my old knowledge in french from elementary school help sometimes Dan. |
| Posted by: alexkdl February 23, 2005 04:27 pm |
| Dan From "Bomber Harris" memoires I have got the two photo bellow of the the Wellington crews...the first two airmen bellow are listed as KIA in Rumania as of May 1944 Alex |
| Posted by: alexkdl February 23, 2005 04:29 pm |
| Dan Also from the same memoires of "Bomber Harris" also this RNZAF crew flying for RAF from Italy is listed as MIA over Roumania Alex |
| Posted by: Iamandi February 24, 2005 07:00 am |
| Some years ago i read an article in Aeronautica magazine about Wellington and RAF and Commonwealth night bombing raids. There i saw this picture with that enigne from that lake, and some drawings. Some alluminium sheets were take by local peoples. Iama |
| Posted by: Fratello February 24, 2005 09:05 am |
| Here is the situation of R.A.F. losses over Romania in April-August 1944 DATA BOMBARDAMENT. Bombardier mediu Bombardier greu TOTAL AVIOANE WELLINGTON HALIFAX LIBERATOR 14 aprilie - - 2 2 15/16 aprilie 3 - - 3 3/4 mai 1 - - 1 5/6 mai 3 - - 3 6/7 mai 3 - 1 4 7/8 mai 4 1 1 6 8/9 mai 1 - - 1 2/3iunie 1 - - 1 16/17 iunie 1 - - 1 18/19iunie 1 1 3 5 2/3 iulie 2 - 1 3 23/24 iulie 1 _ - 1 26/27 iulie - - 1 1 27/28 iulie 1 - - 1 9/10 august 9 2 1 12 17/18 august 3 - - 3 TOTAL 34 4 10 48 (from Mark Axworthy, R.A.F. deasupra Romaniei, in "Aeronautica", nr. 5/1993, p.35) |
| Posted by: Fratello February 24, 2005 09:13 am | ||
Sorry for the first post. I think this one is more clear The R.A.F. losses over Romania in April-August 1944 DATA BOMBARDAMENT./WELLINGTON /HALIFAX/LIBERATOR/TOTAL AVIOANE 14 aprilie -/ -/ 2/ 2 15/16 aprilie 3/ -/ -/ 3 3/4 mai 1/ -/ -/ 1 5/6 mai 3/ -/ -/ 3 6/7 mai 3/ -/ 1/ 4 7/8 mai 4/ 1/ 1/ 6 8/9 mai 1/ -/ -/ 1 2/3iunie 1/ -/ -/ 1 16/17 iunie 1/ -/ -/ 1 18/19iunie 1/ 1/ 3/ 5 2/3 iulie 2/ -/ 1/ 3 23/24 iulie 1/ _/ -/ 1 26/27 iulie -/ -/ 1/ 1 27/28 iulie 1/ -/ -/ 1 9/10 august 9/ 2/ 1/ 12 17/18 august 3/ -/ -/ 3 TOTAL 34/ 4/ 10/ 48/ (from Mark Axworthy, R.A.F. deasupra Romaniei, in "Aeronautica", nr. 5/1993, p.35) |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 24, 2005 11:15 am |
| I received an email from Mr. Paul R. Long, son of one of the airmen from 150 Squadron flying over Romania. He is the host of a website dedicated to 150 Squadron (205 RAF Group) and he kindly answered to my invitation to participate in this topic. I will fragment the letter on different subjects: BOOK ON RAF OVER ROMANIA "There is an excellent book on RAF night operations over Romania during WW 2. It lists all of the ops and losses on the various targets. I believe that it may be out of print now but here is the information: Through Darkness To Light, Patrick MacDonald, 1994, Images Publishing ISBN 1 897817 17 7 MacDonald was the British Air Attache in Bucharest during the 1980's and became interested in why there were so many RAF graves in the graveyard at Tincabesti From that he worked backwards and was able to contact many of the surviving 205 Group aircrew - most of whom are now passed away. He covers the mining of the Danube (one of 205's most daring ops), attacks on railcentres like Turnu Severin, Timisoara, and the oil ports such as Giurgiu as well as 4 nighttime attacks on the oil fields at Ploesti. There were also three large raids on the Industrial Centre of Bucharest itself. All were done flying Wellington X's out of the airfields at Foggia, Italy as well as Liberator Mk. VI and Halifax Mk II's acting as pathfinders. If you can get a copy of this book through an on line used book dealer it will be of tremedous help to you. An excellent account of the airwar in Romania!" (Paul R. Long) As you can see, MacDonald in his book states that Halifax Mk II's were acting as pathfinders. The Halifax were flying ahead the group and launched magnezium flares to illuminate the targets. Also, I was surprised finding out that RAF bombed Timisoara too. I saw Timisoara marked on the targets map but I thought they never came to bomb it. Barbosu |
| Posted by: alexkdl February 24, 2005 11:28 am |
| Here is the mentioned book front cover Al |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 24, 2005 01:04 pm |
| Great! Do you actually have the book? Paul Long says it's probably the best book on this subject! And here is the rest of Paul's email related to the Wellington found in Comana lake. Paul R. Long: "The aircraft you mention was Wellington X serial number JA 524 using fuselage codes JN-Q which was lost on the night of 6/7 of May 1944 - the crash site is given as Comana (15 Km. South of Bucharest) The crew were all killed and buried at Tincabesti after the war: W/O S. Clarke )pilot) Sgt. L.W. Cox (Navigator) Sgt. R.P. Scott (Bomb Aimer) Sgt. C.G/ Walker (Wireless Op) Sgt. G.S. Vaughan ( Rear Air Gunner) The target that night was Bucharest. The Group that night put up 6 Halifaxes, 3 Liberators and 52 Wellingtons. Defenses that night shot down 1 Liberator, 1 Halifax and 3 Wellingtons. MacDonald gives a very detailed look at this raid. My late father flew as a Navigator/Bomb Aimer on targets at Giurgiu, Timisoara and Bucharest. He flew a total of 38 operations between November 1943 and July 1944 with 150 Squadron. I hope that you might find this book as all of the research has been done on all of the raids over Romania by 205 Group RAF as well as a running commentary on raids by the 15th USAAF. I will be pleased to be part of your web forum. Good luck Regards Paul R. Long" OBSERVATIONS 1. There is a discrepancy regarding the plane's number: Aeronautica gives a 525 Q and Paul, 524 Q, probably quoting Macdonald book. I'll ask him to check again. 2. That night were shot down 5 airplanes. Maybe the Liberator downed was the one mentioned by Cantacuzino crashed near Budeni. It could be from 178 sq or one of the SAAF (South African Air Force) squadrons from the 205 RAF Gorup. Barbosu |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 24, 2005 01:21 pm |
| Hi Cipi, Did any Lancasters flew over Romania? |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 24, 2005 01:33 pm |
| Afcourse, many details about these operations are gonna be posted soon. |
| Posted by: RAF Liberator Squadrons February 24, 2005 01:57 pm |
| I'm probably wrong but I wasn't aware of any Lancs in operation out of Italy until mid-late 45. All my Operations Records that I have from 205 Group all flew Wimpy's, Libs and Halibags. I have ORBs for 178 Squadron, 614 Squadron, 31 Squadron SAAF, 34 Squadron SAAF, 40 Squadron, 70 Squadron, 37 Squadron. Not a single mention of Lancs being used in operations over Romania. Unless they were Bomber Command Lancs Operating out of England? Hello Barbosu I made it here feel free to quote me and I'll dig out some Orbs for you. |
| Posted by: alexkdl February 24, 2005 02:47 pm |
| I am about to get the book and that may clarify some operational details into Rumania...I am not aware of Lancasters and Musquitos operated over Rumania by RAF and that emerges from "Bomber " Harris memoires too ..I would welcome any evidences from RAF or British or US books , most the Rumanian books on WWII as well older reports are not very accurate . I noticed repeatedly errors of these books about ARR, 15th AF , RAF and even Luftwaffe.... I recently also bought a non Rumanian book about WWII Soviet aces of Osprey....there are so many errors and pilot photos wrongly identified by the author..I wish that all these books would adopt Denes historical accuracy ( ARR Aces and ARR ij WWII) Alex |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 24, 2005 02:50 pm |
| Hi G. and welcome to this forum and I'll be looking foward to your posts. Barbosu PS. Check for a PM on your forum |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 24, 2005 05:48 pm | ||
Below some elements of the wreck found at the crashed place a year after the rom. authority clean the area. ( courtesy Dan Melinte ) |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 24, 2005 05:49 pm | ||
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| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 24, 2005 05:50 pm | ||
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| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 24, 2005 05:51 pm | ||
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| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 25, 2005 07:35 am |
| Recruiting poster for RAF bomber crews in WWII. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 25, 2005 08:57 am | ||
Below the picture ( from Tancabesti) with the exact number of Commonwealth looses over Romania in WWII. ( courtesy Dan Melinte ) |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 25, 2005 09:11 am |
| A page from "La chasse de nuit Germano-Roumaine" (courthesy of Dan Melinte) we can see details about the "recover" of the welington, there are no museums that present any pice from this plane. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 25, 2005 09:23 am |
| **** |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 25, 2005 09:56 am | ||
The monument dedicated to all RAF ( and Commonwealth) lost airman in WWII over Romania from Tancabesti cemetery. Courtesy Dan Melinte. |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 25, 2005 11:13 am |
| i am sorry for the bad quality photo of my last post, it loks fine on my screen, i don't know what is the problem, il try again. |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 25, 2005 11:15 am |
| The story of the Welington crashed in the lake, from the same book. |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 25, 2005 11:22 am |
| From the same book, information about Landcasters on the romanian teritory. |
| Posted by: cipiamon February 25, 2005 11:23 am |
| From the same book... |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 25, 2005 11:27 am | ||
And i'm sorry for non french speeking people.  Maybe Barbosu could help with translation.Dan. |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 25, 2005 01:30 pm |
Well, I'll translate them but fragment by fragment. I made a request to the government to issue a law making the day of 30 hours and sleep time only three hours  Cheers, Barbosu |
| Posted by: alexkdl February 25, 2005 02:48 pm |
| CIP The book " GERMAN/RUMANIAN NIGHT FIGHTERS" where did you buy it from ? what is the printing year ? can you repost the first photo posted as it doesnt work .....also can you scan the cover of the book. It also says under one of the photos where two soldiers looks into the sky ..that the AMERICAN bombers bombed Zilistea while flying from Russia to Rumania...I knew that some joint US / Sviet B-25's Bombers under the Russian Naval Air Command were based in Crimea and used on the Crimea front in 1944 , I didnt know however that other US bombers were based elsewhere in Russia.....I would like to know the type and location of the bombers just in case you know . Thanks Al |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 25, 2005 03:03 pm | ||
It was one of the shutlle raid ( july ?) used by 15th Air Force freqvently in summer '44. One of the american base in Rusia was Poltava. Dan. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 10:17 am | ||
Below the front cover of the book. Dan. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 10:38 am | ||
Hey Cip, the Lancaster was in fact a Halifax shot down at Corbii Mari. ( info from book La chasse de nuit...) |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 10:44 am |
| German radars position map. Cornelius was the code name of the one placed near Comana village.( book Chassse de la nuit..) |
| Posted by: alexkdl February 28, 2005 11:51 am |
| Dan This chart if translated from French to English says it shows all location of the German visual night signalling aids and status for night fighter activity and not German Radar locations....from German translated it also indicates the 12 BF-110 soled to ARR for the amount mentioned ....the circles are NAV compass roses and the legend indicates the night signalling status of each facility........it doesnt indicate about any Radar station location. Also I am not aware nor there are any RAF reports that Halifaxes and Lancs were lost over Rumania....it could well be an RAF B-24...however if you have clear evidences from the crash site pointing out of a Halifax , let me know Al |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 01:22 pm | ||
Yes Alex you are right they are not radars but radio control centers who direct the german night fighters to the night intruders position ( or something like that). But also Wurzburg radars could be part from that complex sistems ( visual, audio, signalling, radio). I will check for more in that book. Dan. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 01:36 pm | ||
Only Cip could get more info from Corbii Mari village trip. But the french book mentioned a Halifax serial number JP 282 lost night 9/10 august '44 near that village. Probably they found the info from british sources ( not german). The lost crew members probably could rest in Tancabesti cemetery so it's easy to check the info. On that night were lost 2 Halifax, 4 Wellingtons and one RAF B-24 (info from the same book ). |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 01:38 pm | ||
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| Posted by: alexkdl February 28, 2005 03:33 pm |
| Dan Definetly Dan not Radar station....a Radar Station or later on so called GCA ( Ground Controller Approach) would vector the pilot on azimuth and altitude till the touch down zone of the runway which must be lighted ( approach lights,touch down and center line light ) and the pilot must also have tuned in the runway centerline precision navaid bearing of the runway...light signals and fire torches located other than the airfield have nothing to do in operating night fighters with the Wuerzburg Radars guidance...please read read the book called NACHT JAEGER WILDSAU ...the chart provided by you is a general purpose chart other than designating the Radar Stations but is related to the night operations of the BF-110's Regarding the Halifaxes and Wellingtons brought down in one night my common sense tells me not .....discussion held previously with Barbosu and Victor as these books are not accurate....and the books I have from RAF Bomber command didnt list them either...let me get active on this subject and will revert back to you all in a while regarding this issue Alex |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 03:46 pm | ||
Alex is very simple to check all the informations. If the lost crew members ( from the book) we can find in Tancabesti cemetery the info should be close to reality. It could be some mistakes regarding the types of bombers ( B24 or Halifax) but the lost crew members you can not mistake so easy ( it should be from british source). And were did you think are aprox. 80 british airman burried in Tancabesti if not from that many bombers shot down in one night or others nights in summer '44 over Romania. For confirmation below i'v checked another Wellington lost (info from the same book) on 8 may with Tancabesti cemetery resting crew members. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 03:51 pm |
| The flight sergent Frederick Head - bombardier , burrial stone 8 may '44 -Tancabesti ( courtesy Dan Melinte. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 03:57 pm | ||
Below the wireless radio Sgt. Lesley Carey burrial stone-8 may in Tancabesti. Courtesy Dan Melinte. Carey brother was lost on HMS HOOD. |
| Posted by: Victor February 28, 2005 03:58 pm | ||
Alex, that was about a different book, that did not have as subject the Luftwaffe night fighters operating over Romania in 1944, like the one here at hand. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 04:07 pm | ||
Below it'a list ( translated in romanian from Aeronautica magazine) compiled by an well known british historyan Mark Axworthy about the RAF looses over Romania. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2005 04:11 pm |
| Another panoramic view of Commonwealth Heroes cemetery at Tancabesti. Courtesy Dan Melinte. |
| Posted by: alexkdl February 28, 2005 04:38 pm |
| Dan Thanks for sharing the photos. In one way one could count the graves and compare them to the reports on the book you mentioned which would be the most accurate way to do it ......As I said I am working too on the suject and I will post in due course reports and photos Alex |
| Posted by: Barbosu February 28, 2005 06:02 pm |
| We question all of the british losses over Romania or only Lancasters? So far I didn't find any source to indicate that Lancasters were above Romania, But all are stating 15 (or 16) missions of 205 RAF Group over Romania with Wellingtons, Halifaxes and B 24 (AFAIK Hal and B24 were used as pathfinders, launching the magnezium flares). As for the number of aircrafts lost in just one night, for example P. MAcDonald writes about the night when the Wimpy from Comana Lake crashed. Mr. Oaul R. Long, a resercher on 150 Sqn of 205 group says: <!--QuoteBegin-+----></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ( @ --)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Paul R. Long: "The aircraft you mention was Wellington X serial number JA 524 using fuselage codes JN-Q which was lost on the night of 6/7 of May 1944 - the crash site is given as Comana (15 Km. South of Bucharest) The crew were all killed and buried at Tincabesti after the war: W/O S. Clarke )pilot) Sgt. L.W. Cox (Navigator) Sgt. R.P. Scott (Bomb Aimer) Sgt. C.G/ Walker (Wireless Op) Sgt. G.S. Vaughan ( Rear Air Gunner) The target that night was Bucharest. The Group that night put up 6 Halifaxes, 3 Liberators and 52 Wellingtons. Defenses that night shot down 1 Liberator, 1 Halifax and 3 Wellingtons. MacDonald gives a very detailed look at this raid. [/QUOTE] |
| Posted by: alexkdl March 01, 2005 12:16 am |
| Barbosu The book from DARKNESS to LIGHT is on its way to me from the US...I will read it and scan some photos of relevance which as you stated seems to be a an outstanding book $ 55 sofar out of print and no longer available anywhere Alex |
| Posted by: cipiamon March 01, 2005 08:05 am |
| www.modelism.ro is selling this book, is only in french and it costs 18 e. |
| Posted by: alexkdl March 01, 2005 03:27 pm |
| CIP Thanks for the info, regretfully I can understand all in French and I bought the original book in English from sources related to the author,thanks anyways Alex |
| Posted by: Barbosu March 01, 2005 08:11 pm |
| Cip, Alex is buying another book, not the one from modelism. The book "Through Darkness to Light" was written by PAtrick MacDonald and it is out of print as Alex says (printed in 1995 AFAIK). I looked also on internet and I found a price comparison page for it (i.e. At Amazon total cost - with shipping - was 38.99 USD. Check this link: http://www.directtextbook.com/prices/1897817177 "Through Darkness to Light" was the motto of 205 RAF Group based in Italy, with missions over Romania (and other important targets in Germany, Hungary, Poland etc). The image represents the 205 Group's badge. (source: http://www.rafweb.org/Grp07.htm) Cheers, Barbosu |
| Posted by: Dénes March 01, 2005 08:18 pm |
| I have that book and it's very informative. Now, we should also look for reconnaissance flights over Rumania, performed by RAF machines. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: alexkdl March 01, 2005 08:43 pm |
| Here is a photo from F D T L of P.McDonald at the comemoration of the RAF downed airmen in Rumania....Dan has posted already photos of this cemitary |
| Posted by: alexkdl March 02, 2005 12:22 pm |
| According the Through Darkness to Light only 21 RAF bombers were shot down over Rumania rest crashed in other countries and also during T/O and LNDG at own bases...The figures includes also SAAF , RAAF and RNZAF crews who flew under RAF...as you can see now , the previous losses figures posted on here over Rumania were totally exagerated. Date TARGET CRASH SITE Fate of the Crew ===================================================== 3-4 May 44 Bucuresti UNKNOWN all 5 POW ===================================================== 5/6 May Campina Valea Lunga all 5 KIA burried Tincabesti ===================================================== 67/ May Bucuresti Castranova 1 KIA Tincabesti 4 POW Comana 5 KIA Tincabesti Belciug 5 KIA Tincabesti ===================================================== 7/8 May Bucuresti Vartoapele 4KIA Tincabesti/ 1 POW Talpa / Biscoveni 5 KIA " " Prejba de Sus 2 KIA " " 2 POW Farcasele 5 KIA " " Lunguletzu 5 KIA " " Spatereni 5 POW ===================================================== 28/29 June ALL MIA ===================================================== |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 12:34 pm | ||
This figures include also SAAF lost bombers ? |
| Posted by: alexkdl March 02, 2005 12:35 pm |
| Date TARGET CRASH SITE Fate of the Crew ===================================================== 2/3 July 1944 Bucuresti Macesul 1KIA Tincabesti / 4 POW Furculesti 4 KIA " " / 2 POW ==================================================== 27/28 July Bucuresti Crucea de Piatra 5 KIA Tincabesti ==================================================== 9/10 Aug Ploesti 2 X Cotroceni / Orac 10 KIA Tincabesti Caciulati 5 KIA " " Dodrotesti 4 KIA Tincabesti 1 POW Unknown 1 KIA Tincabesti 1 acft x 4 crew members bailed out due to an error & POW ...acft returned to base Ciocanesti 1 KIA Tincabesti 5 POW Corbi Mari 5 KIA " " ==================================================== 17/18 Ploesti Contesti 5 KIA Tincabesti MIA 5 MIA ===================================================== |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 12:39 pm | ||
From this book TDL what are the total amount for Commonwealth looses ( planes and men) due to missions over Romania in '44.( not only the crashes in romanian teritory). Dan. |
| Posted by: alexkdl March 02, 2005 12:42 pm |
| 46 Aircraft losses on all teritorries due to fighter activity , AA, T/O and LNDG crashes as well mid airs ( 21 in Rumania) 154 aircrew dead including those of RAF, RAAF, SAAF and RNZAF 73 POW 27 have evaded Alex |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 12:47 pm | ||
For those who don't know "Crucea de Piatra" was the name of a street with pleasure houses ( case de toleranta). Pictures from this street were posted at "Bucharest then and now". Below it's the link. http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1736&st=300 Dan. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 01:17 pm |
| Alex, i think the data from TDL book i'ts not complete it should be at least 22 planes shot down. The list on french books have more complete info including the posible german pilot credited with the victory. Exemple : missing from TDL list is Wellington BL-Q ( LN 982) crashed at Balta Greaca lake in Romania ( near the Danube) the crew was parachuted or escaped in Bulgaria and taken POW. Below it's the complete list from the french book (La chasse de nuit ... ) |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 01:18 pm | ||
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| Posted by: alexkdl March 02, 2005 01:42 pm |
| Dan My previous American designee FAA Aeromedical Doc in Switzerland whos originally from Australia and lives by now since 40 years in Switzerland , used to fly Beaufighters and later on the Wellingtons as Navigator as well over Rumania, but also me becuase I lived near Cotroceni ....would like to know about the faith of the aircarft which crashed at Cotroceni on Aug 9/10 1944 manned by the crew PLT Sgt W.E Double CPLT Sgt J.E.Chusing NAV Sgt A.J.Curin B Sgt J.S. Wilson G Sgt B,Bell ( a flight manned by low ranked enlisted aircrews,,,which was a bizare thing at the RAF...at 15th AF all bomber pilots were officers ) They are all burried at Tincabesti.....from my mom I heard that they heard about the the RAF crash at Cotroceni and many curious people were around....is there anyway you could get more details about this aircraft ? One aircraft crashed at Caciulati which is the closest village near Snagov....there are no other crashes on Mc Donald map 4 engined bomber near Snagov which was mentioned on previous posts . Bellow is the bombing results directed at ARR 1st Air Defense Regiment Hdq on Saturday May 6th 1944 From : TDTL |
| Posted by: alexkdl March 02, 2005 01:49 pm |
| The photo bellow is of the Wellington of F/O Denys ( tallest mid picture) this crew flew on June 22,1944 their group target was not well identified and bombs fell at periferal zones ....Herastrau , Damaroia ,Giulesti , Banaeasa and Popesti FDTL PS : Dan can you post photos from the French book ? |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 01:49 pm | ||
Could be the same place as today near Baneasa on the national road ?. It looks only small damage to the main building ( a hole in the roof). |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 01:52 pm | ||
I will look in that french book maybe i will find more details. Below it's the aircraft I.D. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 02:10 pm | ||
Yes. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 02:19 pm | ||
More pictures from Tancabesti. Below a close up for the cemetery fountain. Courtesy Dan Melinte. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 02:25 pm | ||
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| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2005 02:29 pm |
| Wellington from 142sq under maintenance at Foggia. ( from Aeronautica magazine) |
| Posted by: Barbosu November 08, 2005 10:34 am | ||
Hello Droop and thanks for your interest and help. Please post here any other message on this subject. It would be very interesting if you could share with us fragments of your father log book or the story of a british mission over Romania. Thanks again and hope to here from you soon. Barbosu |
| Posted by: Merlin September 21, 2006 04:13 pm |
| I am a brit, married to a romanian since 1970 and living and working in Bucharest for several years. I have done modest research into the RAF aircrew in the British cemetery and have made contact with relatives of Stanley Clarke, pilot of the plane downed over Comana and believe that they will come to the Remembrance Day service that we will hold at Tincabesti on 12 November. The romanian army buglers sound the Last Post and Reveille every year, but are there any romanian pilots or others involved in the defence of Ploiesti who might be invited?. Barbosu, Cantacuzino and Alexkdl....would you come and stand with us ?. I have a file from the NZ Ministry of Defence on Clive Hugh MASTERS of Wellington X MF.144/H flying from TORTORELLA and brought down over Talpa Biscoveni 60km SW of Bucharest on the night of 8th May 1944. WEPPLER an australian in the crew survived. Has anyone been to that site....Is anyone interested in going there? |
| Posted by: cipiamon September 21, 2006 08:33 pm |
| We only visited the Comana area, we had special information about this one, but if you whant to visit other crash sites we could arange an expedition. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino September 21, 2006 11:10 pm | ||
Hello Mr. Merlin We would be very glad to participate to "The Remembrance Day" service at Tincabesti on 12 November. I will try to invite some romanian vet. ( WWII pilots) Mr. Dobran Ion, Mr. Marinciu Ioan and many others. Hope that Claudiu (C2) will help us with the transport for them. Dan. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino September 21, 2006 11:15 pm | ||||
Yes, it's also OK for me to arrange with Cip (cipiamon) an expedition to Talpa Bascoveni. I will check the map.  Dan. |
| Posted by: Merlin September 22, 2006 04:58 pm |
| Dear Mr. Cantacuzino, TINCABESTI - 12th November Thank you for the fast reply. I would be very happy to help arrange transport to and from the Cemetery as we always have plenty of car space. We are usually invited back to the Ambassador's house afterwards......and that means ALL of us !!. We will talk more about the arrangements, but please inform those that you feel should be there and I will inform the Embassy as a matter of courtesy of what we are planning to do. Military Attaches from EU and Commonwealth countries come to lay wreaths every year, but to see little old men lay flowers for former adversaries........that is what it is all about for me. Talk to you soon. |
| Posted by: Merlin September 22, 2006 05:06 pm |
| Talpa Bascoveni.. I know that it is very close to Videle When would be good to go there. I have transport..... a good 4 wheel drive that I am in the process of selling....so one last mission. Mid week ? Depending whether you guys can get time off. We could do one quick recce and then go back later as need be. Peter. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino September 24, 2006 05:06 am | ||
Hi Peter, I spoked at the phone with Cip and we agree that next week will be good for both but starting from friday ( to sunday ) depending on the weather. I will let you know for sure by PM message. Dan. |
| Posted by: Merlin September 26, 2006 02:55 pm |
| Dan, Looking forward to hearing from you and Cip. Cip May I borrow your book to brush up my french language. I promise to look after it well. Peter. |
| Posted by: cipiamon September 26, 2006 08:24 pm |
| Is Cantacuzino's book , anyway, can't wait for the trip! |
| Posted by: Michi September 26, 2006 10:45 pm |
| I'm doing right now trying to finish my article about the fightings on the lower Danube in August and September 1944. (Kampfgruppe Zieb and others.) Thanks to the following link I can even add a chapter about the Operation Gardening (aerial mining the Danube): http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5806 Also I have gained one more source about the counter-measures of the German Danube Flottilla. (even a squadron Ju 52 MS "Mausi" (mine-clearing aircrafts) was stationed alongside the Danube!!). MfG Michi PS: I will be thankfull on any informations about the fights alongside the Danube (air - sea - land) from 23rd August 1944 till 01st October 1944. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino September 27, 2006 08:29 pm | ||
29 august'44 -romanian recco Blenheim from "Escadrila 1 recunoastere" (pilot Lt av Alexandrescu Schmeling) took off for a mission over Danube. The crew observed german ships attacks Becket village. 30 august '44 - Five romanian Heinkel 111 ("Escadrila 78" ) at 09.00 took off from Craiova airfield for bombing (german ships) mission near Turnul Severin. The five He 111 crews were: 1. Crew of Cpt. Sima Octavian -observer, pilot Lt Virgil Stanculesu. 2. Crew of Lt. Stefanov Emanuel- observer, pilot Lt.Alexandru Paun. 3 Crew of Slt. Valentin Conovici -observer, pilot Adj.stg. Aldea 4 . Crew of Lt. Danaila -observer, pilot Adj. stg. Zlate. 5 . Crew of Lt. Oancea - observer, pilot Adj. stg.Anghel The escort was provided by 4 x Bf 109 G6 (leader Lt.Ioan Dobran) from Popesti -Leordeni airfield. One He 111 was lost and crashed near Vanju Mare village ( 4 KIA ) only the pilot Sgt Aldea bailed out. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino September 27, 2006 08:40 pm | ||
Until now six rom. WWII vet. accepted the invitation for "Remebrance Day" service at Tancabesti: 1. G-ral av. Dobran Ioan (ex Bf 109G pilot) 2. Comandor av. Marinciu Ioan ( ex Bf 109G pilot) 3. G-ral av. Dan Stoian ( ex Ju 88 pilot) 4. Comandor Lucaci Mihai ( ex Bf 109E pilot) 5. Comandor av. Dragos Stinghe ( ex bf 109 G pilot) 6. Comandor av. Nicolae Traian( ex Blenheim pilot) Soon the list will be updated.  |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino October 30, 2006 11:47 am | ||
Hi Peter, Do you have any news for the " Remembrance day "arrangement ? I allready talked with some vet. about this. Dan. PS: check your PM message. |
| Posted by: electric October 30, 2006 04:44 pm |
| I would like to participate to the "Remebrance Day" service at Tancabesti. Do you have some details on time/hour? thanks, electric |
| Posted by: wannermaker October 16, 2008 02:50 pm |
| I am looking for any information or sources on RAF recce missions over Romania, specifically Northwest Transylvania. I am looking for aerial photographs of this region and because these photos have only recently been declassified, they are not catalogued. Therefore I need to know specifics, and have not had very much luck at my local library. Any help at all would be appreciated! Thanks, Rob |
| Posted by: flighty August 07, 2009 08:32 pm |
| Hi everyone, this is a bit of a long shot but I am looking for more detail of my father's last mission flying over Szombathely, Hungary. I know this is the Romanian site but I can't find an Hungarian equivalent. He was shot down in a Wellington from 104 squadron, based at Foggia on the night of 21/22 October 1944. He and his crewed baled out and survived. My father's name was Norman Flight and he was the pilot. I have a copy of the w/op log book entry for that night. The Wellington serial number was LP501u. Any help would be gratefully received. Regards, Ross. |
| Posted by: Dénes August 08, 2009 07:08 am |
| I found 1 Wellington of 70 Sq., 1 B-24D of 34 SAAF Sq. and an unidentified RAF bomber lost over Szombathely on Oct. 21, where at least one crewmember was killed. Your father's mount - if none of the crew was killed - must have been another Wellington. All these were shot down by Luftwaffe night fighters. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: flighty August 08, 2009 07:24 am |
| Hi, thanks for the reply. I am pretty sure all my father's crew survived. I think I may have even found the name of the pilot who shot him down from a book of Luftwaffe Night Fighter Combat Claims. The pilot listed in the book as Oblt Josef Kraft shot down 3 aircraft that night of the 21st October over Szombathely, a B-24 and 2 Wellingtons. As roughly about 5 aircraft were lost from a total of 74 on that raid that night there is a chance my dad's was one of them. Thanks again for your help, Ross |
| Posted by: tiptopjohn August 02, 2012 09:26 pm |
| Hello, The Pilot of the Wellington Bomber was my Grandads Brother Stanley Clarke, would really like to contact anyone who knows the whereabouts of the wreckage, as would like to come over to Romania and see it for myself and visit his grave. I have a photograph of Stanley if anyone would be interested? Anyone can contact me on: john.pearson902@gmail.com John Pearson 7 Coronation Drive, Forest Town, Mansfield, Notts NG190AJ |