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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Royal Navy > Romanian subs activity

Posted by: crolick December 13, 2005 08:59 pm

This is my 1st post here, so I would like to say hello to all!

I have some questions regarding the activity of Romanian submarines.

(1) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=249 on 9.IX.1941 Delfinul sighted and attacked with torpedos Soviet cruiser Komintern. Can I ask for some more details like: number of fired torpedos, range to the target or position of the attack?!

(2) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=250 on 29.IV.1944 Rechinul sighted near Batumi 2 Soviet cruisers. Then the question is - what was the identity of both units?! Maybe our Russian friends can help us here?!

(3) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=249 on 27.VI.1942 Delfinul received 240 DC and on 1.VII.1942 another 328. For me, the numbers seems way to high, hence the question arise what was the real number of dropped DC [again maybe our Russian friends will be able to give us the precise info?!]

(4) According to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=251 on 11.V.1944 Marsuinul received 420 DC from Croatian KFK. Again the number of DC in my opinion is too high. The second problem is with Croatian KFK. As far as I know UJ 301-310 and UJ 312-318 were only manned by Croation [therefor they were not 'officialy' Croatian - but here I may be wrong] but again in March 1944 ships were again manned by Germans and Croatians crews were sent to Adria. Anyone can clarify this!?

Best wishes from Warsaw,
crolick

Posted by: sid guttridge December 14, 2005 11:59 am

Hi Crolick,

The British annual publication "Warship" carried an article on all Romanian submarine operations about ten years ago. It was by Cristian Craciunoiu. This should answer your questions.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Victor December 14, 2005 01:58 pm

Welcome to the forum, crolick.

The articles were written a couple of years ago. Back then, the only source at hand regarding the operations of Delfinul was Dorin Mara, Marina regala a Romaniei in cel de-al doilea razboi mondial, Editura Economica, 2000. Not a very good book, but that is all I had at my disposal. This summer I have finally acquired the first volume of Nicolae Koslinki and Raymond Stanescu's Marina Romana in al II-lea razboi mondial, Editura Fat-Frumos, 1996, which deals with the 1941 events. Their work comprising of 3 volumes is probably the best source on the Romanian Navy in WW2 in existance. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to read it yet and make corrections on the site, where needed.

(1) That is what it said in Dorin Mara's book. Koslinski & Stanescu don't mention any attack. Just that the NMS Delfinul saw an cruiser it identified as the Komintern.

(3) The numbers are double checked by Koslinski & Stanescu, with the mention that this is the number of explosions counted onboard the sub. There weren't all DCs probably, as they were also attacked by aircraft.

(4) The figure is again double-checked in the second volume of Koslinski & Stanescu. 420 explosions were counted. They say that the KFKs were manned by Croatian crews and operated from the Bulgarian coast

Posted by: dragos03 December 14, 2005 10:08 pm

Answer to (2): according to the Koslinski & Stanescu book, Rechinul didn't actually sight the two Soviet cruisers. It was announced by the headquarters that the cruisers might be in the area but didn't encounter them.

Posted by: crolick December 14, 2005 10:28 pm

Hello all!

sid - thnx for the tip. I'm aware of the existance of this article but still have no luck on finding it. Though my friend promised me that he will send me this article shortly. I hope he will keep his promise

dragos03 - thank you. This explains the question

Victor -
(1) Yes this clear things out
(3), (4) About DCs. I agree that Romanians could count i.e. 420 DCs but I just buy the story as true. Typical BMO was carrying 16 DCs, OD 200 - 24 small DCs [or 16 big ones], destroyer of project 7 had 54 DCs onboard. My point is that the numbers from the Russian side just do not add...

Another interesting discrepancies:
a/ Marsuinul
1) In the begining of the patrol at 6:30 boat was attacked by German plane and MG by it. What is the exact date - 11 or 12 May 1944?!
2) Are you sure that on 20 May 1944 Marsuinul evaded 3 torpedos fired by Soviet sub?! To my knowledge none of them reported such an attack.
3) On one day sub recieved 82 DCs from Soviet planes. Was it on 22 or 23 May 1944?! Or maybe both?!

b/ Rechinul
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 August 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 August 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 August 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!

c/ Delfinul
1) Regarding Komintern I found that it was sighted 5 Nm off Orczanok Cape. Can our Russian friends confirm that it was in fact Komintern and not another vessel!?
2) Sub left the base for her 4th patrol on 2 September 1941 or 3 September 1941!?
3) After unsuccessful attack on Ostrovskij Delfinul was haunted by surface Soviet units. How many DCs were dropped 90 or 809?!
4) Sub left the base for her 5th patrol on 2 November 1941 or 3 November 1941!?
5) Sub left the base for her 8th patrol on 8 May 1942 or 18 May 1942!?
6) On 1 July 1942 sub was hanuted for many hours. How many DCs were dropped 268 or 328?!

Of course all questions regarding DCs are asking for the Romanian numbers of counted dropped DCs.

Lot of questions, but subject is very interesting and worth of a time to dig it!

Best wishes,
crolick

Posted by: Victor December 17, 2005 09:32 am

QUOTE

Another interesting discrepancies:
a/ Marsuinul
1) In the begining of the patrol at 6:30 boat was attacked by German plane and MG by it. What is the exact date - 11 or 12 May 1944?!
2) Are you sure that on 20 May 1944 Marsuinul evaded 3 torpedos fired by Soviet sub?! To my knowledge none of them reported such an attack.
3) On one day sub recieved 82 DCs from Soviet planes. Was it on 22 or 23 May 1944?! Or maybe both?!

1). It was on 11 May. The German seaplane dropped 4 bombs.

2). The crew reported to have seen torpedo wakes during the night. They probably assumed it was a Soviet sub.

3). On 22 May, between 0445 and 0825 they were pursued by submarine hunters 45 miles WNW of Batumi. 82 explosions were counted, of which 74 in the vicinity.

QUOTE

b/ Rechinul
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 August 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 August 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 August 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!

1). As far as I know, the sub ended his second patrol on 29 July and didn't leave the port again.

2). See above

QUOTE

c/ Delfinul
1) Regarding Komintern I found that it was sighted 5 Nm off Orczanok Cape. Can our Russian friends confirm that it was in fact Komintern and not another vessel!?
2) Sub left the base for her 4th patrol on 2 September 1941 or 3 September 1941!?
3) After unsuccessful attack on Ostrovskij Delfinul was haunted by surface Soviet units. How many DCs were dropped 90 or 809?!
4) Sub left the base for her 5th patrol on 2 November 1941 or 3 November 1941!?
5) Sub left the base for her 8th patrol on 8 May 1942 or 18 May 1942!?
6) On 1 July 1942 sub was hanuted for many hours. How many DCs were dropped 268 or 328?!

2). 3 September

3). The first submarine hunters appeared at 0946 and until 1840 they made 23 attacks, launching between 80 and 90 depth charges.

4). It left in the evening of 2 November

5). I have found both versions., but I tend to believe the 18 May variant.

6). Between 0725 and 0800, it was spotted by the VVS-ChF patrols and 12 bombs were dropped. Then, between 0800 and 1030 hours, 95 bombs fell down around it. Around 1300 hours another 20 and around 1540 around 24. In the evening, between 1920 and 2000 hours, 82 fell nearby and 35 farther away. If we add them we obtain a total of 268.

Posted by: crolick December 17, 2005 01:21 pm

Hello Victor!

Many thanks on your answer, working with you is a pleasure

Of course I have made a stupid mistake about Rechinul. The correct version should be:
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 July 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 July 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 July 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!

Though I have find another discrepancies regarding Marsuinul:
1) Sub left the base for her patrol on 10 or 11 May 1944!?
2) Sub was attacked by German R-boot [any chance fro identyfing the R-bot number?!] by accident on 10 or 12 May 1944?!

And another 2 questions:
- Is there any source which gives the number of agreggate DCs dropped on Romanian subs?!
- On some pictures of Romanians subs I have noticed some emblem on their coning tower. What is it?!. Were all boats carring this emblem during their service?!

Greeting from Warsaw,
crolick

Posted by: Carol I December 17, 2005 07:03 pm

QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 02:21 PM)

- On some pictures of Romanians subs I have noticed some emblem on their coning tower. What is it?!. Were all boats carring this emblem during their service?!

Could you please post an image of the emblem? It could have been the Romanian coat-of-arms in use at that time.

Posted by: crolick December 17, 2005 08:30 pm

QUOTE (Carol I @ Dec 17 2005, 07:03 PM)

Could you please post an image of the emblem? It could have been the Romanian coat-of-arms in use at that time.

Hello Carol I

here you go:
http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emblem19eo.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emblem25az.jpg

user posted image

Indeed this is an eagle [like in Romanian coat-of-arms] but the drawing inside doesn't look like that one in Romanian coat-of-arms

Cheers,
crolick

Edit: Sorry didn't know that I have to put source

Axworthy & Craciunoiu - Romanian Submarine Operations in the Second World War

Posted by: Carol I December 17, 2005 08:33 pm

QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 09:30 PM)

Indeed this is an eagle [like in Romanian coat-of-arms] but the drawing inside doesn't look like that one in Romanian coat-of-arms

Thanks Crolick. This is indeed the eagle in the Romanian coat-of-arms.

Posted by: Carol I December 17, 2005 08:39 pm

Here is an image for reference and comparison:

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Stema_Regala.jpg

Posted by: Carol I December 17, 2005 08:50 pm

QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 09:30 PM)

It appears that both these images are reversed. As seen in the reference image of the Romanian coat-of-arms, the Wallachian eagle should be in the first quarter, not in the second.

Posted by: crolick December 17, 2005 10:03 pm

QUOTE (Carol I @ Dec 17 2005, 08:50 PM)

It appears that both these images are reversed. As seen in the reference image of the Romanian coat-of-arms, the Wallachian eagle should be in the first quarter, not in the second.

Yes, you are quite right Carol I!
I haven't noticed that - thank you

Posted by: Carol I December 18, 2005 10:16 am

QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 11:03 PM)

QUOTE (Carol I @ Dec 17 2005, 08:50 PM)

It appears that both these images are reversed. As seen in the reference image of the Romanian coat-of-arms, the Wallachian eagle should be in the first quarter, not in the second.

Yes, you are quite right Carol I!
I haven't noticed that - thank you

You are welcome.

Here are the "right" images:

user posted image

Posted by: Victor December 18, 2005 01:34 pm

QUOTE ("crolick")

The correct version should be:
1) I have contradictory data. One says that sub was haunted on 5 July 1944 from 01:35 to 7:30, the toher claimes that this in fact took place on 18 July 1944. Which is correct?!
2) On 24 July 1944 sub received 41 or 43 DCs?!

1). Actually, both may be right. On 5 July 1944 it was hunted for between 0135 and 0730 hours in the area near the Idokopass Cape. On 18 July Rechinul returned to the same area. They reported tha tthey heard DC explosions farther away, but the ship wasn't in danger.

2). 43, out of which 21 in the vicinity of the sub

QUOTE ("crolick")

Though I have find another discrepancies regarding Marsuinul:
1) Sub left the base for her patrol on 10 or 11 May 1944!?
2) Sub was attacked by German R-boot [any chance fro identyfing the R-bot number?!] by accident on 10 or 12 May 1944?!

1). 10 May. It left Constanta in the morning, but only in the afternoon it passed the mine barrage.
2). 11 May. It started at 0830 hours and there were probably more than one ships, because it lasted until the evening.

From what I read there isn't an aggregate number of DCs calculated.

Posted by: Victor December 18, 2005 01:36 pm

QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 17 2005, 10:30 PM)

Hello Carol I

here you go:
Indeed this is an eagle [like in Romanian coat-of-arms] but the drawing inside doesn't look like that one in Romanian coat-of-arms

Cheers,
crolick

crolick, we have some http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=27 regarding the posting of images, which require the poster to mention their source.

Posted by: crolick December 18, 2005 07:28 pm

QUOTE (Victor @ Dec 18 2005, 01:34 PM)

(1) In the morning you say?! Axworthy & Craciunoiu gives 11 May at 22:00. So both the date and the hour is false?!
(2) Again Axworthy & Craciunoiu gives 12 May at 01:00. So again they are wrong?!

I would also like to thank you for your cooperation and patience

Can I ask for the most reliable and precise technical info regarding Romanian subs?!

Cheers,
crolick

Posted by: sid guttridge December 19, 2005 02:39 pm

Hi Crolick,

The two Romanian submarines are almost always overlooked in histories of the development of German U-boats, whereas other German designs such as those built for Finland, Spain and Turkey, are often included.

I presume Rechinul and Marsuinul are related to some of the German U-boat designs developed in the 1930s, but I have never been able to establish where they fit in.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Victor December 19, 2005 06:45 pm

QUOTE (crolick @ Dec 18 2005, 09:28 PM)

(1) In the morning you say?! Axworthy & Craciunoiu gives 11 May at 22:00. So both the date and the hour is false?!
(2) Again Axworthy & Craciunoiu gives 12 May at 01:00. So again they are wrong?!

1). Koslinski & Stanescu say it passed the mine barrage in the evening of 10 May together with the last convoy leaving for Sevastopol that day.

2). Here I made a confusion. I thought you meant the KFKs that attacked it all day long. Koslinski & Stanescu say the R-boot fired the MGs on it at 0100 hours on 11 May. No mention of what R-boot that was. But looking in the section dedicated to the evacuation of Crimea, the last convoy for Sevastopol on 10 May (Musca) left Constanta at 2000 hours. This was the convoy with which Marsuinul passed through the barrage. The only R-boot in the convoy, which most likely fired on the submarine, was Rb-205.

Posted by: Victor December 19, 2005 06:51 pm

Rechinul and Marsuinul were the result of a "joint-venture" between the Resita Works and a Dutch firm from Hague (J.V.S.). The contract was signed in 1937

Posted by: Carol I December 19, 2005 07:31 pm

If I remember right, the project used for Marsuinul was that of a mine-laying sub with a somewhat "bulky" hull.

Posted by: crolick January 09, 2006 06:09 pm

QUOTE (Victor @ Dec 19 2005, 06:51 PM)

Rechinul and Marsuinul were the result of a "joint-venture" between the Resita Works and a Dutch firm from Hague (J.V.S.). The contract was signed in 1937

Hello Victor,

do you know the yard numbers fo Romanian submarines?!

Regards,
crolick

Posted by: Victor January 09, 2006 08:13 pm

No.

Posted by: crolick January 14, 2006 10:29 pm

I found that commander of Delfinul Căpitan de marină Costăchescu C. Constantin received on 2.III.1943 Order of Mihai Viteazul 3rd class [No. 656].

Did other captains recevied any other decorations?! [I checked that none of them received Order of Mihai Viteazul but maybe they've get less important ones?!]

One more thing - how it is writtien in Romanian lt. cdr.?!

Did Grigore Ciolac, Nicolae Turcanu and Constantin Costachescu were all Căpitan de marină?!

Cheers,
crolick

Posted by: Victor January 15, 2006 09:00 am

QUOTE (crolick @ Jan 15 2006, 12:29 AM)

I found that commander of Delfinul Căpitan de marină Costăchescu C. Constantin received on 2.III.1943 Order of Mihai Viteazul 3rd class [No. 656].

Yes, it is mentioned here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=249

Other orders received by those captains are difficult to identify, because there is no published listing, nor are there any published articles about them. One would have to look through their service files in the archives in Pitesti.

Lt. cdor. is locotenent comandor, see http://[http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=965

Posted by: crolick January 19, 2006 04:24 pm

Sorry for off topic, but since we are under decorations. In 1922 40 Romanian officers were decorated with highest Polish decoration Virtuti Militari. Do you know whether among them were some Navy officers?!

Posted by: crolick February 06, 2006 01:23 pm

Hello all,

I would to ask today about torpedos Do you know how many torpedos were fired by Romanian submarines and how many were evaded?!

As far as I know only 2 torpedos were fired: 1 by Delfinul on 5.XI.41/08:44 which missed Soviet tanker Ostrovskij and 1 by Marsuinul on 20.V.44 [hour?!] which missed Soviet submarine [identity not known at the moment]. [BTW what type of torpedos Romanian subs were using??]

I think that only 1 torpedo was evaded by Romanian subs: by Delfinul on 20.VIII.41/13:08 fired by Soviet sub M 33. THere is also claim for 1 aonther evaded by Marsuinul on 20.V.44 [hour?!]. But according to Russian sources no attack was made by Soviet sub that day in the vicninity of Batumi hence I presume this was false alarm. Though there is possibility that there was 1 more attack that was unnoticed by Marsuinul. On 11.V.44/01:41 Soviet M 62 fired 1 torpedo to enemy submarine in position 44°41' N / 31°32,5' E. Is it possible that the target of the attack was Romanian submarine?!

Regards,
Andrzej

Posted by: Victor February 15, 2006 08:39 am

Sorry corlick, I forgot about this.

The torpedo the Marsuinul thought to have evaded was fired at 0200 hours, 40 miles North of Cape Yasun. I haven't found any mention of it firing any of its own torpedoes.

Posted by: crolick February 15, 2006 09:42 pm

QUOTE (Victor @ Feb 15 2006, 08:39 AM)

Hello Victor,

thank you for reply but am I missing something?! On your http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=251 you have wrote:

QUOTE

On 20 May, it engaged a surfaced Soviet submarine, but both ships avoided each other's torpedoes.

So which version is correct?!

Regards,
Andrzej

Posted by: Iamandi February 16, 2006 12:20 pm

On Modelism International site, you may fina a small brochure "Submarine war in the Black Sea (1941-1945)" by Cristian Craciunoiu, in romanian language at 3 euro.

www.modelism.ro , at books.

Iama

Posted by: Victor February 17, 2006 08:18 am

Yes, crolick, I know of the contradiction. The article was written a long time ago and usinga source in which I lost confidence since. I was planning to rewrite the articles on the Rechinul and Marsuinul, but I just didn't have the time to do it.

Posted by: crolick April 01, 2006 08:40 pm

I found very interesting information about Romanian Delfinul in Clay Blair's book entitled Hitler's U-boat War, part 2 [The Hunted, 1942-1945]. He claimes that Hermann Eckhardt before he was appointed CO of U 432 he was a CO of Romanian 600-ton Delfinul operating in the Black Sea.

I suppose it is not quite true [since the COs were cpt. Constantin Costachescu and cpt. Corneliu Lungu] but maybe he was onboard on some of the patrols as advisor?! Anyone knows anything about that?!

Regards,
Andrzej

Posted by: Carol I May 04, 2006 02:37 pm

QUOTE (Iamandi @ Feb 16 2006, 01:20 PM)

On Modelism International site, you may fina a small brochure "Submarine war in the Black Sea (1941-1945)" by Cristian Craciunoiu, in romanian language at 3 euro.

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/2562/razboisubmarin16oy.jpg http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/7641/razboisubmarin30gi.jpg http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/3254/razboisubmarin93lx.jpg
From eBay

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/9693/razboisubmarin42ub.jpg http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/1338/razboisubmarin56vc.jpg http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/8172/razboisubmarin63ko.jpg
Rechinul

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/7922/razboisubmarin20xa.jpg
Comandor Corneliu Lungu on the tower of Rechinul

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/915/razboisubmarin71is.jpg
The crew of Gr. Ciolac

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/1767/razboisubmarin82af.jpg
Italian CB subs in Constanţa on 30 November 1943

Posted by: crolick November 18, 2006 04:32 pm

Hello,

I found even more surprising source confirming German officer as CO of Delfinul!!

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-490INT.htm

The source is very doubtfull since there were no Stefanescu nor Romaniesti but the question of Kptlt. Eckhardt still remains in force!

Cheers,
Andrzej

Posted by: Wings_of_wrath January 25, 2007 11:50 pm

If you ask me, this interogation report is where the story of Kpt Hermann Eckhardt as CO of Delfinul comes from.

However, it's pretty interesting to note that the german sailor who claimed to have served aboard Delfinul gave the names of the other two submarines as "Stefanescu" and "Romaniesti" ("Romanesti" maybe?) at the time he was serving, thus in 1942.
We know for sure that at the times the submarines had been launched, but had not yet been commisioned.

Could it be that both names were in fact informal nicknames for the boats used by their crews? After all, the modern-day Delfinul is often reffered to as "Pandele".

The other posibility, of course, is that the german sailors was telling tall tales, although wherever it was to antagonise his captors remains unknown.

Posted by: crolick January 28, 2007 07:16 pm

What 'Pandele' stands for?!

Posted by: Victorian January 29, 2007 10:03 am

Pandele" is just a funny nickname.

Somehow similar to "guy" in English, which, I assume, comes from Guy Fawkes, found guilty by the authorities for the "Gun Powder plot". I haven't seen this myself, but I have been told that in England each year this Gun Powder Plot is celebrated with a life-size dummy called "Guy" which is burned on the streets.

So, similar to this 'guy", this "Pandele" is a quite affectionate name one gives here in Romania for the neighbour round the corner, or a not-so-close relative.

Posted by: crolick January 30, 2007 01:39 pm

QUOTE (Victorian @ January 29, 2007 10:03 am)

Thank you for clearing things up!

Do other subs have similar nicknames?!

Posted by: Victorian January 31, 2007 08:57 am

Well, Crolick, at the moment Romania has no other submarines

... just "Pandele".
As for the other subs, I just had a short discussion with a neighbour of mine here in Constantza. He is an old man which worked on "Delfinul" and he used to know well Bibi Costachescu. He promised me a full account on his stories. I will also ask him if there was any nickname for the former Delfinul and the other two subs. Just stay tuned!