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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Biographical Research > General Gheorghe Avramescu

Posted by: mabadesc July 09, 2004 05:25 pm

QUOTE

i would be interested in learning more about your grandmother's father's service in WW2.

CCJ,

Sure, I'll gladly tell you anything you wish on the subject, but what would you like to know specifically?

Victor wrote a short biographical summary of him in the "Generals" section. Just look for Lt.Gen Avramescu. Victor and I disagree on a couple of points, but the description is overall mostly accurate and well written.

Of course that brief summary only scratches the surface. I guess I could tell you about his personality, or various family anecdotes that I heard from people who knew him. Currently, there are two main issues which I'm still researching and in which I'm keenly interested. The biggest issue, of course, relates to his arrest (and disappearance/death) by the Soviets on March 2nd, 1945.
Briefly, in February 1945 he had been recalled to command the 4th Army at the insistence of Malinovsky and the Soviet officer corps who respected him very much. He returned to the front in Czechoslovakia and continued to be in good relations with the Soviet generals (Malinovsky threw a banquet to honor his return). Towards the end of February, some Romanian newspapers were talking about rumors of a new Romanian government led either by Avramescu or by Stirbey. On March 1st, 1945, he received written confirmation that he was appointed to high governmental post (either War Minister or prime minister) and he was instructed to return to Bucharest at once to start his post.
In return, he (Avramescu) wrote to his wife - I still have the handwritten note - to go to Romania and to get his parade uniform (uniforma cu fireturi) ready for the ceremony.
He was preparing to leave, when he was summoned to the Soviet headquarters for a military meeting. He went to the meeting and never returned. At the same time, his entire corps of "aides" was arrested, 43 people, among which: his personal doctor, his personal cook, his bodyguard corps (led by Lt. Doroftei, who I met), his chauffeurs, his personal assistants, etc...
Some returned from Siberia 10-15 years later, some did not.
Also on the same day, his wife was retained by the NKVD while en route to Romania (separate, funny story) and sent to Siberia for 11 years. At the time, she was accompanied by one of her two daughters, who commited suicide, and by my mother, who was on vacation and who was only 6 years old. My mom was also arrested and held prisoner with her nanny for 3 months until our family from Romania could claim her through an appointment with Visinsky.

There are speculations as to why he was arrested, and exactly how he died, but nobody knows yet. The whole thing was carefully covered up by SMERS officers because killing an active-duty general who had so much prestige could get them in trouble, especially because of the fact that they killed him before taking him to Moscow for interrogation.
For instance, I have the copy of a document signed by 5 SMERS/NKVD officers (colonels and one general) in which they all corroborate that Avramescu was being taken to interrogation with a car at night when a German plane attacked the convoy with machine gun fire. Somehow, the plane managed to hit only Avramescu, although he was seated in the back seat of the car, in the middle, surrounded by 4 other Soviet officers who weren't even wounded.
The whole thing smells rotten to me. It seems that they were covering their own butts for having lost an important prisoner before they could extract information from him.
Exactly how he died is still a mystery.

I could go into furhter detail and mention other documents, but it only gets more confusing...

Otherwise, what can I tell you about him as a person? After he finished War College and Officer school (this is before WWII started) he enrolled in law school in a part-time program (University of Iasi), so he was also a licensed attorney (lawyer). In his youth, he was also a champion wrestler and later on, played the flute in a local orchestra in Braila. From people who knew him, he had amazingly good powers of conviction, he was very kind to the troops and always took the time to talk to soldiers, he was kind with the enemy civilian population and fed them whenever he could. In battles, he often spent time in the first line of combat.

The most telling thing about him is that many officers who served under him continued to visit my grandmother (his daughter) every year out of respect. This happened every year for 50 years until last summer, when my grandmother died.

Well, there are tons more stuff I could go on about, but I'll stop here. Sorry if I bored you, but you asked...

Posted by: dragos July 09, 2004 05:53 pm

mabadesc, very interesting information you are sharing with us.

Exactly on which points you and Victor disagree on ?

Posted by: CCJ July 10, 2004 03:08 am

Not bored... You could start from birth and take it right up to the day he disappeared.

Posted by: mabadesc July 10, 2004 11:32 pm

QUOTE

Exactly on which points you and Victor disagree on ?

Dragos, when Victor and I talked about this subject some months ago, we only disagreed on a couple of minor points such as:

1. I am convinced that Avramescu was promoted to full General some time between Nov. '44 - Feb. '45. Most articles and books written by military historians mention him as "General de Armata". Even his statue in Cluj is inscribed "General de Armata", while Dascalescu's, which is next to it, is inscribed "General de Corp de Armata" although they both led the 4th Army. My uncle even told me he has a copy of the promotion order. Victor doesn't seem to believe this.

2. Surrounding the events of 23 August, 1944, Avramescu was in command of the 4th army but on August 20, he got into a huge argument with Antonescu in Bacau, I believe. Avramescu was vehemently stating that the front could not hold without the German Armored divisions which had been withdrawn. He insisted on an immediate retreat to the Oriental Carpathians-FNB line. He and Antonescu got into a screaming match, Avramescu said "I resign", Antonescu said, "No, I relieve you of command". In retrospect, Antonescu could have had him executed on the spot (you can't "resign" your command in the middle of the battle), but since they had mutual respect, he just relieved him of command. In any case, Avramescu had warned on Aug. 9 that a Soviet offensive would occur within the next 2 weeks and he continuously protested the German withdrawal of armor and pushed Antonescu to either get the armor back or to retreat to FNB. Victor's summary skips over these events in his summary, and when I wrote to him, I had the impression he didn't believe me.

3. In the biography, Victor writes: "Some believe that he was actually executed by the NKVD". The truth is, there is no doubt that he died because of the NKVD/SMERS. The chief of his bodyguard crew, Lt. Doroftei, made it back to Romania after 15 years. He told us that right after their arrest, they were locked up in separate cells. He also told us that every afternoon, he heard the distinctive sound of Avramescu's footsteps walk by his cell door (Avramescu had a slight limp and used a cane, plus Doroftei was very familiar with the general's walk - that was his job as bodyguard).
Anyway, he said that his happened for 3 days or so, and then he stopped hearing his footsteps. Shortly after, they were all taken to Moscow in the same cargo plane, but Avramescu was the only one missing in the plane. He was never heard from since.

4. At the end, Victor puts in question whether Avramescu wanted to side with the Iron Guard and defect with the 4th Army to the Germans. As an objective writer, I certainly don't blame him for mentioning this possibility. But I can tell you for sure that this was not the case. Instead, what happened (and Ilie Sturza, the guardist defector recognized this) was that members of the Iron Guard tried to recruit him by blackmailiing him and by spreding rumors that Avramescu was an Iron Guard sympathizer (which he wasn't at all, quite the contrary, actually). For instance, undercover Iron Guard members went to our family's residence and tried to convince my great-grandmother (the general's wife) that the Soviets were going to kill them and that she should convince her husband to defect (she told me this herself). So, in effect, I think they were spreading rumors in order to discredit him in front of the Soviets and thus leave him no choice but to defect and join their side (the exiled Iron Guard).

5. A while back, I asked Victor to include in his summary that Avramescu was also a law school graduate and a licensed attorney, although he never got the chance to practice law, but I think he forgot to add it (not a big deal).

Well, these are really the points of disagreement, but none of what Victor wrote is false. He's just trying to be as objective as he can, and he's looking for hard proof before mentioning the stuff I mentioned above.

If it interests you, maybe I'll post his handwritten note or the note written by the 5 SMERS officers.

Posted by: CCJ July 10, 2004 11:57 pm

Thank you for all you have shared mabadesc.

Posted by: dragos July 11, 2004 12:17 am

QUOTE

1. I am convinced that Avramescu was promoted to full General some time between Nov. '44 - Feb. '45. Most articles and books written by military historians mention him as \"General de Armata\". Even his statue in Cluj is inscribed \"General de Armata\", while Dascalescu's, which is next to it, is inscribed \"General de Corp de Armata\" although they both led the 4th Army. My uncle even told me he has a copy of the promotion order. Victor doesn't seem to believe this.

In the book "Armata romana 1941-1945", 1996, published by the collective of the military museum, there are several comprehensive lists of the commanders. According to this work, in 1945 there were only two full generals (general de armata): Petre Dumitrescu (since 18.07.1942) and Vasile Atanasiu (since 11.04.1945). There is a photo showing Avramescu in December 1944, where his shoulder ribbon has the rank of "general de corp de armata". I tend to agree with Victor on this. If only you can talk to your uncle to give you a copy of the promotion order.

Posted by: dragos July 11, 2004 12:36 am

Regarding your 2nd point, the presumed conflict between Gheorghe Avramescu and Ion Antonescu was not singular. Another example was the conflict between General Iosif Iacobici and Antonescu.

Posted by: Victor July 11, 2004 11:20 am

QUOTE

Well I have changed my mind in teh meanwhile, as I found a mention of his promotion to 4 star general in 1944. I am presently revising the all the general biographies (Dumitrescu and Mihail had already been modified, without it being announced on the forum), including Avramescu's promotion to general.

Posted by: Bernard Miclescu July 11, 2004 11:31 am

a little bit off topic, but since Victor speaks about gen Mihail: Did you know that one of his uniforms is in the Ivalides Army Museum in Paris??? How did it get there?

Yours,
Bm

Posted by: Carol I July 11, 2004 11:39 am

QUOTE

a little bit off topic, but since Victor speaks about gen Mihail: Did you know that one of his uniforms is in the Ivalides Army Museum in Paris??? How did it get there?

If I remember correctly it is the white uniform in the photo below and it has the third class badge of the Order of Michael the Brave.

user posted image

Source: Musée de l'Armée

Posted by: CCJ July 11, 2004 02:22 pm

Is someone nearby this museum so that they can take a good quality picture of his uniform for the forum?

Would be great if each generals bio had a larger photo gallery and possibly a list of awards and promotion dates.

Posted by: mabadesc July 11, 2004 07:38 pm

QUOTE

That's great, Victor! Could you please share with us your source? I'm very interested in exactly what/where you found. Thanks.

Posted by: Victor July 11, 2004 09:07 pm

There was an article in a recent Dosarele Istoriei about his personal medic, who mentions Avramescu as a general and so does the book of Al. Dutu & F. Dobre.

Posted by: mabadesc July 12, 2004 03:25 am

Thanks, Victor. I know you and all people on this forum are busy, but if you could please take 5 minutes and scan the article and email it to me, I would be extremely grateful. I'm obviously very interested in all articles that mention Avramescu and I try to collect them.

It's very frustrating for me though, because my hands are tied here in Chicago, 10,000 miles away from Romania.

Just something to please keep in mind when you have a little free time. If you or Dragos don't have the time to get around to it, I completely understand - no problem whatsoever.

Posted by: dragos July 12, 2004 03:36 pm

QUOTE

2. Surrounding the events of 23 August, 1944, Avramescu was in command of the 4th army but on August 20, he got into a huge argument with Antonescu in Bacau, I believe. Avramescu was vehemently stating that the front could not hold without the German Armored divisions which had been withdrawn. He insisted on an immediate retreat to the Oriental Carpathians-FNB line. He and Antonescu got into a screaming match, Avramescu said \"I resign\", Antonescu said, \"No, I relieve you of command\". In retrospect, Antonescu could have had him executed on the spot (you can't \"resign\" your command in the middle of the battle), but since they had mutual respect, he just relieved him of command. In any case, Avramescu had warned on Aug. 9 that a Soviet offensive would occur within the next 2 weeks and he continuously protested the German withdrawal of armor and pushed Antonescu to either get the armor back or to retreat to FNB. Victor's summary skips over these events in his summary, and when I wrote to him, I had the impression he didn't believe me.

"Meanwhile, the II and the III Fronts' armies had launched, on August 20, 1944, the offensive on the Jassy-Kishinev front and they had deeply advanced into the Romanian and German's troops disposition, though Marshal Antonescu ordered, on August 22: "the law must be strictly applied, and all those who are running away from the enemy's face are to be executed". The approval Hitler gave him on August 22, 1944, for a retreat of the front's line, came too late; moreover, General Erich Wohler even further delayed the fulfilment of such an action, fact that drove to despair General Gheorghe Avramescu, who asked, in the evening of August 22, to be replaced in the 4th Army's command."
Source: Romania in World War II 1941-1945, ISOSIM, 1997

Posted by: mabadesc July 12, 2004 03:50 pm

Thanks for the post, Dragos. I have an interesting book quote on the same topic, but I'm at work right now. I'll post it when I get home.

What I'm trying to find out are exactly the circumstances of his dismissal/resignation on 22 August. What was said between him and Antonescu, what precise motives he gave for resigning, etc...

I'm afraid that it's a tough thing to reassemble from all the small bits of information.

Resigning your command in the middle of the fight is an extreme, radical thing to do. He must have had some solid, concrete reasons...

Posted by: Bernard Miclescu July 12, 2004 04:17 pm

QUOTE

If I remember correctly it is the white uniform in the photo below and it has the third class badge of the Order of Michael the Brave.

Yes that's it.
If i'll go visit again Invalides Museum, i'll try to take a picture, though it may be forbiden to do it.

Yours,
Bm

Posted by: Carol I July 12, 2004 07:59 pm

QUOTE

If i'll go visit again Invalides Museum, i'll try to take a picture, though it may be forbiden to do it.

I remember that some time ago taking pictures was allowed inside the Invalides complex, provided that strong lights (such as flashes) were not used.

Anyhow, Gen. Mihail's uniform is not the only Romanian item in there. In the WWI section there is a uniform of a private with the Military Virtue Cross. Unfortunately that section seems to be closed until 2005.

Posted by: Klemen July 12, 2004 11:08 pm

Zivjo Mihai!

In my reply to you which I have sent to you via personal mail (and which I hope you have received) I didn't "mention" the address of the Russian Supreme Court, because at that time I didn't found it. Anyway to be short here, if your search in the Russian National War Archives by Mrs. Natalia or in the FSB Archive will proved fruitless (something what I doubt :roll: but stil...) the third and last resort is to contact the Archive of the Russian Supreme Court. If your great-grandfather was trailed before send to Siberia like some books say than his records should be stored in this archive.

URL: http://www.supcourt.ru - address of Supreme Court of Russia
Your may send e-mail to the head of Storage Department (Otdel Khranenia Sudebnykh dokumentov) via this site using contact section.

But first contact the War Archives (they have POW records - but only if he was given a POW status, of course) and especially the FSB Archive (they are most probably the institution that helds the diary and other documents related to General Avramescu). He was most probably arrested by NKVD or SMERSH, so any documents confiscated at him at the time of his arrest were send here.

Alora, this would be more or less all. Contact as I told (wrote) you and I think you have a good chance of finding anything. And when you do, don't forget to treat us a beer if we ever stumble upon each other, hehe..
:keep: :cheers:

Take care and all the best.

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: dragos July 13, 2004 09:24 am

About the death of General Avramescu:

http://www.itcnet.ro/history/archive/mi1997/current5/mi7.htm

Posted by: mabadesc July 13, 2004 03:33 pm

Thanks Dragos, thanks Klemen.

Klemen, I'll write you a personal email, as I faxed your request letter.

Dragos, my theory (one of my theories) is that the death of Avramescu is closely related to political events of March 6th, 1945 (the birth of the Dr. Groza communist government).

What do you think?

Posted by: mabadesc July 13, 2004 03:51 pm

Here is an example of what newspapers were talking about in Feb/March '45.

user posted image

Posted by: mabadesc July 13, 2004 03:58 pm

And here is a translation of the report written by SMERSH officers regarding Avramescu' death. (2 pages)

Note how high in rank these guys were, especially for SMERSH/NKVD officers!!!

Please let me know your impressions. A german plane who only managed to hit and kill Avramescu in a car filled with 5 officers?

user posted image

Posted by: dragos July 13, 2004 11:43 pm

QUOTE

Please let me know your impressions. A german plane who only managed to hit and kill Avramescu in a car filled with 5 officers?

I understand you that it is hard to believe this story. However, we should also think that, even with an infinitesimal probability, this could be possible.

Question: for whom this letter was redacted ?

Posted by: mabadesc July 14, 2004 02:54 am

Dragos,

You bring an excellent point. Knowing the exact recipient of the letter would be of much help.
This letter (raport) was written on March 3, 1945 by the 2nd Ukrainian Front SMERSH leadership and was intended I believe either to NKVD or to NKGB headquarters in Moscow, or to the Soviet political leadership. It was found in Moscow in one of the archives by an uncle of mine. I believe it was in the KGB archives (FSB?).

There is another report which describes in detail the state of the car after the shooting. I will post it later today.

Nevertheless, you are correct in saying that, although very small, the possibility of his being shot by the German plane does exist, but I think it is almost negligible. Still, this does not exclude his arrest. The reason he was in the car with SMERSH officers to begin with was because he was being transferred for interrogation.

My question to you: Does it feel like these SMERSH officers were a bit scared and trying to cover their asses?

Consider this: Back then, in the war, Soviet political commissars (SMERSH, NKVD, etc) had enormous powers. A lieutenant commissar could easily arrest and execute a Soviet colonel without any hesitation. Soviet military officers were scared to death by these comissars.
In this context, you have the events of Avramescu's death confirmed and signed by a SMERSH LT. GENERAL and the leader of the 2nd Ukrainian Front's SMERSH branch. Still, this wasn't enough: Koroliov (the SMERSH general) had four other high ranking officers sign next to his name. They wanted unanimity, they wanted lack of any doubt, they wanted to be sure their asses were covered. Also, the fact that Koroliov was "in charge" of transferring the prisoner Avramescu and was in the same car with him indicates that Avramescu was considered a very, very important and precious prisoner.
My question is, why did they want to cover themselves so thoroughly? Why was Prisoner Avramescu so important for them?

Posted by: Klemen July 14, 2004 11:26 pm

Zivjo Mihai!

QUOTE

This letter (raport) was written on March 3, 1945 by the 2nd Ukrainian Front SMERSH leadership and was intended I believe either to NKVD or to NKGB headquarters in Moscow…

SMERSH was Soviet counterespionage service in World War II. It is really interesting that he was arrested and escorted by them. It seems that someone believed (or want to believe) that General Avramescu was intending to desert to the Germans… But this could of course very well be just a cover up.

QUOTE

It was found in Moscow in one of the archives by an uncle of mine. I believe it was in the KGB archives (FSB?).

Most likely this report was send to the NKGB headquarters in Moscow. NKGB is less known in the West than NKVD but it dealt with counter-intelligence and later became known as KGB. If NKVD would arrest him than he would be arrested by NKVD force attached to the 2nd Ukranian Front.

QUOTE

Nevertheless, you are correct in saying that, although very small, the possibility of his being shot by the German plane does exist, but I think it is almost negligible.

Well, it depends how riddled was the car, but it does sound indeed very incredible that only one person out of six sitting in a a probably reasonably small car (I assume it was a field limousine or an US made jeep) would get killed.

The entire story very much reminds me of that one which happened a decade ago when immediately following the death of popular Sergei Kirov in Leningrad, when some NKVD officers invited his former personal bodyguard on a horse treek during which he "accidently felt from his horse and broke his neck". Miracles and odd things did and will happen, but not in Stalin's Soviet Union. :-D

QUOTE

Still, this does not exclude his arrest. The reason he was in the car with SMERSH officers to begin with was because he was being transferred for interrogation.

I think that his presence with SMERSH officers tells us that he was indeed under arrest. Probably he was accused of attempt to desert to the Germans like some sources I have read tell us. This was probably just a cover up for his imprisonment and execution. It would be though interested to know whether he was shot at the spot or secretly taken to Moscow and from there to Siberia, where he died in March 1945, according to some of the Russian sources that I have already quoted to you in some of our previous correspondence.

What truly remains a mystery, as you have pointe dout, is why he was arrested and taken. Here I would like, if I may as a non-Romanian, emphasize the meaning of his arrest. Who benefited most from it? To some extent the Soviets but more importantly than they the Romanian communists under dr. Petru Groza. I wouldn't be suprised if it would be they (the Romanian Communist Party) who denounce General Avramescu as a hostile element, not loyal to the USSR ans advised his "removal" from political life. It would thus be very good if you would also check a.) the Archives of the Romanian Communist Party in Bucharest and b.) the Archives of the Soviet Communist Party or any other archives that keeps the correspondence between the Soviet and Romanian communist leadership in 1944-1945.

Just my two cents on this.

Awaiting your personal mail. I hope you have been able to check that book for me by now.

Best Wishes,

Klemen

Posted by: Victor July 15, 2004 01:38 pm

QUOTE

Well I have changed my mind in the meanwhile, as I found a mention of his promotion to 4 star general in 1944. I am presently revising the all the general biographies (Dumitrescu and Mihail had already been modified, without it being announced on the forum), including Avramescu's promotion to general.

It's done. The biography has been revised. I'll send you the copies from the magazine soon.

Posted by: mabadesc July 15, 2004 07:41 pm

Thanks Victor. I've already read the biography and it looks great.
Actually, I've read all the other revised biographies - they all look good and professional.

Klemen, thanks for your comments. I'll post some replies to them when I get 5 free minutes. And no, I haven't forgotten about sending you the email

:oops:

Posted by: mabadesc July 16, 2004 07:01 pm

Here is another excerpt concerning the arrest and death of General Avramescu.

Victor, you may be especially interested in this since a good portion of it is written by Gen. Dascalescu (I know you're a fan of his - so am I).
Not surprisingly, the report written by Dascalescu is well thought out and clearly stated.

The text in question is labeled "Document 44".

user posted image

....continued...second page...

user posted image

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR August 01, 2004 07:18 pm

Mabadesc - I have a few books that are regimental histories and regimental photo albums. Looking through these books, I came across your Grandfathers photo as a young Lieutenant in the Balkin Wars. The book is "Regim. Neagoe Basarab No 38, Oficerii Activi Si De Reserva, Campania 1913". He was a young Lieutenant in the 38th Infantry Regiment during the Campaign of 1913.

Posted by: mabadesc August 02, 2004 03:01 am

Wow, great find! Thanks for the picture, too.

Unfortunately, not much is known about his military activity prior to WWII, except that he participated both in the Balkan war (1913? or 1914?) against Bulgaria, and then in WWI, where he was wounded.

If you find any more info about him in those books, please let me know. You can either post it here or email me privately.

Thanks again.

Posted by: Carol I August 02, 2004 06:05 am

[quote]...Balkan war (1913? or 1914?) against Bulgaria...[/quote]
Romania participated only to the Second Balkan War of 1913.

Posted by: mabadesc August 02, 2004 03:41 pm

[quote]Romania participated only to the Second Balkan War of 1913.[/quote]

That's the one, then. Thanks for correcting me, Carol.

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR August 09, 2004 02:24 am

Pencil sketch drawing.

Posted by: mabadesc August 09, 2004 10:25 am

It was painted in 1942 by (the name escapes me now), an artist who Avramescu met on the front as a young soldier. He found out the poor guy was an artist, and he pulled him back from the front line and assigned him administrative duty. The guy turned out to be a fairly consacrated painter after the war, well into the 1970's, and my parents bought a few paintings from him in the 1970's.

This portrait, of course, was given to Avramescu by this painter in 1942.

If you look carefully, you'll see that the DKIG swastika, the ribbon from the Iron cross, and another medal were covered up with black paint. This was done by my grandmother just after the war because she was afraid people would see them.

After 1989, we tried to erase the black paint from the medals, but as you can see, we couldn't do it completely.

I'm curious how you got this picture, though. The only way, I think, is that a couple of times some photographers came from the Military Museum and from a newspaper for an article and took its picture.

Anyway, thanks for posting it, though. My grandmother passed away last August, and this painting was supposed to go either to myself or to my uncle, Radu, who knew him well (Avramescu took him around the front lines all the time - my uncle was 10 - 14 years old during the war). Obviously, even though I really wanted the painting, I thought he was more entitled to have it.

Thanks again, though. This was quite a coincidence and I enjoyed seeing the painting again

Posted by: mihai August 09, 2004 12:22 pm

QUOTE

Pencil sketch drawing.

Where is this resource of the picture?

Mihai

Posted by: mihai August 09, 2004 12:25 pm

QUOTE

I was really shocked to see this, Regal.

This is actually a color oil painting that's hanging in my grandmother's apartment in Bucharest. It has a beautiful gold-painted solid wood frame in the shape of oak leaves. :D

It was painted in 1942 by (the name escapes me now), an artist who Avramescu met on the front as a young soldier. He found out the poor guy was an artist, and he pulled him back from the front line and assigned him administrative duty. The guy turned out to be a fairly consacrated painter after the war, well into the 1970's, and my parents bought a few paintings from him in the 1970's.

This portrait, of course, was given to Avramescu by this painter in 1942.

If you look carefully, you'll see that the DKIG swastika, the ribbon from the Iron cross, and another medal were covered up with black paint. This was done by my grandmother just after the war because she was afraid people would see them.

After 1989, we tried to erase the black paint from the medals, but as you can see, we couldn't do it completely.

I'm curious how you got this picture, though. The only way, I think, is that a couple of times some photographers came from the Military Museum and from a newspaper for an article and took its picture.

Anyway, thanks for posting it, though. My grandmother passed away last August, and this painting was supposed to go either to myself or to my uncle, Radu, who knew him well (Avramescu took him around the front lines all the time - my uncle was 10 - 14 years old during the war). Obviously, even though I really wanted the painting, I thought he was more entitled to have it.

Thanks again, though. This was quite a coincidence and I enjoyed seeing the painting again

Hi mabadesc,
Wat size this poriginal pictures that your grand mother has?
You can see the same monocolortyoe of this scan in the book""Ordinula militar de Razboi Mihai Viteazul.2000 modelism.
Mihai

Posted by: mabadesc August 09, 2004 04:21 pm

QUOTE

Hi mabadesc,
Wat size this poriginal pictures that your grand mother has?

Mihai,

The original painting is about 1m by 0.5m.

What I want to do next time I come to Romania is make a professional color copy (lifesize photograph), frame it and send it to the Veterans Circle in Braila. The Veterans' Association in Braila is named after Gen. Avramescu and all they have is a small portrait of him when he was young.

Posted by: dragos September 25, 2004 03:49 pm

I have found several information that can be added to the biography of Avramescu:

- in 1916 company commander in 78th Infantry Regiment

- during 1923-1929 chief of staff in 10th Infantry Division

- during 1939-1941 commander of 10th Infantry Division

Posted by: mabadesc September 26, 2004 12:01 am

Thanks Dragos,

I knew about the 10th ID commander position (it was his last assignment before being put in command of the Mountain Corps), but not about the other 2.

I find it very interesting that he was chief of staff of a division.

I think he also worked as chief of Section 2 (intelligence?), but I don't know for which division.

Posted by: AGC April 09, 2007 12:04 pm

I have found in the book “Antonescu Maresalul Romaniei si rasboaiele de reintregire”, editura Europa Nova, a narration of the discussion between Colonel Magherescu and General Dragomir some time after the war.
On page 532 and 533 you can reed about the events from 22 August 1944 related by General Dragomir and on page 536 about the supposed desertion attempt.

AGC

user posted image

Posted by: AGC April 09, 2007 12:24 pm

The book is an interview taken by Iosif Constantin Dragan to Colonel George Magherescu (fost Sef Birou 3 din cabinetul Maresalului pe toata perioada rasboiului) in 1981. In this interview Colonel Magherescu relate about General Dragomir an his discussion with him in 1973-1974. You can see how distrustful the soviets were.
Unfortunately it is not a direct interview with General Dragomir and we do not know how accurate the narration of Colonel Magherescu is.

AGC

Posted by: AGC April 09, 2007 04:07 pm

In 1945 the soviets where afraid of a possible romanian defection.
Recently I heard a story from my uncle who was a artillery officer in the 8th cavalery divison. It happened near Zvolen in 1945. Because the Romanian cannon where extremely worn out he often had to go in the first line to make observation and to correct his canon shots. With that occasion he went with a “sergent telefonist” in the first line short before a german attack. He made his calculation when he heard “The Germans!”. In the next seconds the romanian soldiers left the trench and short after arrived a group of german. He and his sergeant had no time to flee. So he was a german prisoner. After 10-15 minutes the Romanian attacked and the germans fled without taking him prisoner.
For this adventure he had to go to the division HQ and wait 8 hours for a soviet military prosecutor. He was accused of desertion attempt. For the next 6 hours he had to explain what happened in the first line. In the end he was lucky and was released.
Until the end of the war the soviets where “paranoic” in this problem.

AGC

Posted by: Victor April 09, 2007 05:55 pm

Magherescu's story needs to be taken with a LARGE grain of salt

Posted by: mabadesc April 09, 2007 09:20 pm

QUOTE

Magherescu's story needs to be taken with a LARGE grain of salt

Victor, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.
The account is skewed not just with respect to the rumors around a possible "defection" of the army to the Germans in 1945, but also with respect to the way Magherescu describes things as having taken place at 4th Army headquarters on the eve of August 23, 1944.

AGC - thanks for posting the excerpt, though.

QUOTE

Until the end of the war the soviets where “paranoic” in this problem.

You're right, the Soviets were extremely paranoid in this regard, and your uncle's story illustrates this very well.

Anyway - overall, the book is a good read and it does have some interesting anecdotes, though Col. Magherescu clearly worshipped Antonescu and describes him as pretty much "perfect".

Posted by: BG7M May 18, 2007 05:19 pm

An interesting paragraph about the possible defection of G.ral Avramescu I've found: "M.D.: - Da, asa i s'a promis, numai cã pe zi ce trecea, frontul se deteriora. Cãnd Horia Sima a vãzut cã Transilvania a fost pierdutã pentru frontul german, atunci el a trecut la realizarea unui plan, care dacã ar fi reusit, ar fi schimbat situatia în România. Astfel, el i-a trimis în tarã, clandestin, peste liniile din Cehoslovacia si Ungaria, pe Stoicãnescu, Schmidt si Petrascu. Stoicãnescu trebuia sã contacteze cadrele superioare ale armatei (printre care generalii Avramescu, Dragalina si Coroamã) pentru a face o defectiune majorã, antiruseascã, in timp ce Schmidt si Petrascu trebuiau sã ridice masele. Nicolae Petrascu a si rãmas în continuare în tarã. Ideea lui Horia Sima era, cã dacã armata românã s'ar fi rãsculat împotriva rusilor (acestia fiind slãbiti prin întãrirea frontului lor pe Oder) le-ar fi fãcut acestora dificultãti atât de mari, încât rusii, ori ar fi chemat în ajutor pe Aliati (care se aflau în Grecia si care dacã ar fi rãmas ulterior în tarã, ar fi împiedicat comunizarea României), ori ar fi încheiat un armistitiu cu România, asemãnãtor celui încheiat cu Finlanda. Misiunea emisarilor a fost încununatã de succes, ora X a fost stabilitã, iar Stoicãnescu si Andreas Schmidt au plecat spre Germania (la Viena) pentru a comunica data si ora actiunii si de a coordona actiunea româneascã cu un redus sprijin aerian german. Dar, din nou a functionat trãdarea, telegrafistul lui Schmidt, NicolaeTãranu, a comunicat totul rusilor, avionul a fost doborît lângã Seghedin de aviatia de vânãtoare româneascã (alertatã de rusi si obligatã sã se ridice în aer). Astfel

pagina 42 actiunea a esuat... Trebuie subliniat faptul cã doctorul Tãranu nu a fost legionar, el a fost pe vremuri seful organizatiei cuziste din judetul Timis-Torontal si fusese racolat si instruit ca telegrafist de serviciile secrete germane si îi servea personal lui Andreas Schmidt, seful Grupului Etnic German din România. Nu stim de când a devenit d-rul Tãranu omul rusilor, în mod sigur a fost constrâns sã lucreze pentru ei... În urma acestei trãdãri, generalii români implicati în complot au fost arestati...

L.V.: - Cum a reactionat Horia Sima fatã de acest esec ? "
The quote is from http://www.fgmanu.net/istorie/interv_main.htm

Posted by: Victor May 19, 2007 11:40 am

Like I already said, I personally am very skeptic regarding this theory, especially given its sources. Unfortunately such consipacy theories thrive because they lit up the imagination of some or offer the opportunity to others to peek their head out of history's garbage can.

I nstead of searching for obscure "sources" of inmformation, we would better concentrate the effort in logic and facts. Hearsay it's definately not worth taking into consideration.

Facts are:

1. General Avramescu was a very experienced senior officer, with a continous service during WW2, something few Romanian generals did. He would be in a very good position to evaluate the imposiblity of carrying out such an operation. We are talking about 7 divisions, corps and army artillery, supply units etc., not several hundred men. All these forces need to be supplied with ammo, food and other materials. This implies an good orgazinational structure behind the lines.

More importantly, it was crystal clear that Germany was KO and it was just a matter of time before the counting reached 10.

2. General Avramescu also knew the strength of the troops facing him, which were around 3 divisions (German 3rd Gebirgsjaeger and 101st Jaeger Divisions and Hungarian 24th Infantry Division). Not exactly a force that could carry out an offensive operation that could destabilize the front. In fact, the Wehrmacht had already depleted its last offensive potential at Balaton.

3. The Romanian forces were interlocked with Soviet units in the Zvolen Banska-Bystrica Operation. Some of the Romanian divisions were subordinated directly to Soviet corps and vice-versa.

4. The terrain was extremely difficult in Slovakia and it made offensive operations extremely costly. The Germans were able to hold the frontline with fewer men, the same could have been done by the Soviets in an initial phase.

5. The soldiers were tired of war and wanted it to be over so that they could go back home.

IMO, logic tells us that Avramescu would not try such a stupid maneuver. For my part, the legionnaire propaganda can say whatever it wants, but in the end it's just words without a real basis.

Posted by: mabadesc May 19, 2007 08:10 pm

BG7M,

Thanks for posting the interesting excerpt, but Victor's reply is logical and accurate.

I would only add the following items:

It is true that Stoicanescu and the Andreas Schmidt group wanted Gen. Avramescu to join their side.

However, to claim that they succeeded in doing so would be clearly false. There is no evidence to support that they were even able to communicate with him, let alone convince him of doing such a foolish and impossible thing.

As further proof, years later Mihail Sturdza admitted to his son, Ilie Sturdza, that their claim that they were successful was false and used merely as propaganda.

Posted by: BG7M May 24, 2007 06:38 pm

QUOTE (Victor @ May 19, 2007 11:40 am)

IMO, logic tells us that Avramescu would not try such a stupid maneuver. For my part, the legionnaire propaganda can say whatever it wants, but in the end it's just words without a real basis.

Completely agree! My post was only an intention to show a different point of wiew, not my oppinion.

Posted by: mabadesc May 25, 2007 05:47 am

QUOTE

My post was only an intention to show a different point of wiew, not my oppinion.

BG7M, you did the right thing by posting the interview fragment.
In my opinion, it's important to be aware of all points of view or statements with respect to our world war II commanders, regardless of whether they are accurate or false.

Thanks for your post, and please keep posting if you find any other excerpts or comments.

Let me contribute to this discussion by adding another blatant false statement (this time made by a Romanian author) which was unfortunately used as a reference in Klaus Schonherr's book, "Luptele Wehrmacht-ului in Romania".

In footnote #260 (to be found on page 180 of Schonherr's work), the author cites Gh. Buzatu's book, "Romania - Razboiul Mondial" as stating:

"General Avramescu resigned due to the fact that he could not accept the idea of retreating troops from the Iasi-Chisinau region and ceding the territory to the Soviets without any fight"

This is a false statement and is in fact opposite to the truth. General Avramescu asked to be relieved of his command of the 4th Army because the German command structure of the South Ukraine Army Group refused to allow retreating the front to the FNG fortified line inspite of the crushing superiority of Soviet forces (especially in armored units) and of the obvious futility in attempting to resist on the existing line. Furthermore, German command structures (to which the 4th Army was subordinated) continued to interfere with the retreat even after it was aproved and ordered by Antonescu.

The statement made above can be massively corroborated by the Operations Journal of the 4th Army, Aug. 20 - 23, 1944.

In fact, General Avramescu was well aware of the imbalance of strength between Soviet and German-Romanian armored forces on the Moldavian front and vehemently protested the German removal of several armored units from the Moldavian front during the summer of 1944.

To illustrate his protest, here is one of his reports made to the Romanian General Headquarters (Marele Stat Major) on August 6, 1944 (sorry, Romanian language only):

"Raportam ca Divizia 14-a blindata Germana a primit ordine de plecare pe frontul central. Si de aceasta data luarea Diviziei s-a facut fara vreun aviz prealabil care ar fi dat Comandamentului putinta de a aviza la masurile de luat.
Aceasta este ultima unitate blindata germana din frontul Armatei 4-a, care ramine astfel complet lipsita de rezerva de blindate la Est de Siret, pe rocada Tg. Frumos-Iasi.
Frontul de la Nord de aceasta rocada si-a avut ratiunea si puterea in reactiunea mobila a blindatelor care insumau initial intre Siret si Prut 5 (cinci) divizii blindate germane.
Acest ultim fapt intareste propunerile Armatei din raportul Nr. 300422 si impune o reexaminare a situatiei.

Comandantul Armatei 4-a
General de C.A. (ss) Gh. Avramescu"

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR October 04, 2009 09:03 pm

QUOTE (mabadesc @ August 02, 2004 03:01 am)

Nascut 26 I 84
Elev 1 IX 06
Subloc. 1 VII 08
Locot. 1 X 11
Captain 1 IV 16
Major 1 IX 17
Lt. Col. 23 V 23
Colonel 31 III 29

Source : Anuarul Ofiterilor Activi Ai Armata Romane Pe Anul 1936

Posted by: ocoleanui January 23, 2010 02:35 pm

http://www.edituramilitara.ro/shopping/product_details.php?id=173

Posted by: Dénes July 03, 2010 07:22 pm

Does the mentioned book add any new info regarding Gen. Avramescu's purposed defection plans in early 1945?

Thanks,

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: ocoleanui July 05, 2010 06:54 am

I have not read it. We found a publisher's site.

Posted by: contras July 24, 2010 10:24 pm

http://www.edituramilitara.ro/shopping/memoriile-unui-ofiter-de-informatii-173.html

I read it, and is very interesting. I strongly recomand it, you can find many things about Stalingrad, Soviet offensive in august 1944, and General Avramescu's case. It is written by a man who was in centre of the events, at higher ranks in Romanian military staff.

Posted by: Dénes July 25, 2010 07:18 am

Does it confirm the defection plans of G-ral Avramescu and his army in early 1945?

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: MMM July 25, 2010 10:41 am

No, it does not! This book (Ion Grosu's memories) has very "bad" things to say about Avramescu (not defection, but about aiding and abetting ex-legionnaires and many things about his character and leading manner), about Antonescu and many other Romanian generals. I wonder why...
I didn't even have the necessary patience to read it from beginning to end, as i read only a couple of chapters of immediate interest and found the book resentful up to the point of being venomous!

Posted by: contras July 25, 2010 10:42 am

QUOTE

Does it confirm the defection plans of G-ral Avramescu and his army in early 1945?

Gen. Dénes

It doesn't confirm on infirm that. There are memories of one Staff officer, about what he had seen there, many documents and personal impresions about many German, Soviet and Romanian generals, that ones with whom he personally worked during the war.
He exposed the facts he had seen, and doesn't make any hazardous conclusion.

Posted by: MMM July 25, 2010 03:43 pm

Well, actually, he (the author, Ion Grosu doesn't conclude in this particular regard, although he was very close to the action. BTW, he ws an intelligence officer, along his staff position.

Posted by: contras July 27, 2010 07:50 pm

One of the "suspected" actions he saw about Avramescu, is that one:
Two important Iron Guard members were captured when they tryed to cross the front line. They were taked in custody by Avramescu himself, that it was very unusually. Avramescu signed himself that he take in custody the two ones.
Few days later, the two ones speak at Donau radio, telling that many Romanian units were ready to change parts in war, and two important generals the same. How the two Iron Guard members were fred, Grosu don't know. After that event, Avramescu was called to Bucarest for explanations. He come back, and later was arrested by Soviets.

Posted by: Petre June 03, 2011 07:20 pm

From a (Net)book of Vadim Udilov (former KGB Maj.Gen.)
The CounterSpy's Notes. A look from inside (Zapisky kontrrazvedchika. Vzglyad iznutry), 1994
Chapter : War without front

The Operation "The Friends"
Soviet SMERSh organs have developed a large and long-term operation against underground nationalist and fascist groups, sent from Germany and operating in Romania....
Spies investigated: Schmidt, Gunner, Helmuth ...
......
Q: Whom from the conspiracy you know ?
A: I personally know Petrascu, also I know the followings: Gen.Avramescu, Gen.Dragalina, Gen.Aldea.
.....
Shmidt also confessed that he and The Iron Guard has counted on support from Radescu Prime Minister, ministers Negulescu and Penescu, Maniu and Bratianu, chief of the Security Service Stanescu, commanders of the garrison Bucuresti, Sibiu, Brasov and Craiova and a reactionary part of the Romanian Army officers.
......
True, the names of the generals-conspirators were known to the Soviets before. Gen.Avramescu appeared repeatedly on Gunner radiograms sent by "Helmuth" to RSHA office Vienna. From these radiograms it was possible to get definitive conclusions.
.....
Gunner to Strunk 18/01/1945:
"... On Jan.13 meet Avramescu on the front. Previously, by the baronesse Strudza, I learned Avramescu will be removed from the Army. They still not decided. If it will be so, we lose a great chance, because he agreed with all issues. His position against the Soviet authorities apparently unhurt.”
.....
RSHA, from Gunner:
"Gen.Avramescu promoted as Army General, CO of the Ro. 4th.A. Tomorow he goes to the front. Excellent relationship with Avramescu. He is ready for any cooperation with us. At the request of the The Iron Guard he went to the front, but promises that, if necessary, he will assume also political tasks. We are in a close relationship with Avramescu through a permanent liaison officer."
......
Sometimes, when they were serious problems, the Allies were obliged to pass something to us. So it was with the information on Gen.Avramescu.
......
In early Jan.1945, the head of OSS, Gen.Donovan, by the representative of the U.S. military mission in the USSR, Gen.Deane, sent an official letter to the Soviets, in which he warned of a possible failure of the Gen.Avramescu troops.
Here is that letter:
Office of Strategic Services, Washington : "Early Nov.1944, the Germans received information that Gen.Avramescu could pass to the German side with some units. It is said that in early Nov. he tried unsuccessfully to pass to Germans with his family. In an effort to suport him, the Germans organized a meeting between their military officials, Horia Sima and Prince Sturdza’s son (a relative of Avramescu)... Thus, Horia Sima together col.Steinhauzer, met in early Nov. at the "South Army Group” the generals von Grolman and Friesner. It was agreed that for the coordination of all operations in Romania, it must be set up a central command, similar to a government ... Later Horia Sima met Sturdza and the Germans in Budapest. At this meeting, Sturdza said Gen.Avramescu will not be able to bring any unit, except for his family ... "
......
The phrase of the decision to create a Command for Romania alerted the Soviets. Possibly, the readiness of the underground anti-Soviet forces was at a level that the Germans concluded they need to create a special command. The data gathered points Gen.Avramescu as an active participant in the conspiracy, and his mandate on command of a Romanian Army on the Soviet-German front had serious consequences.....
They decided to remove Avramescu, Dragalina and others from positions of command, to deprive them of their ability to use Romanian military units to support a Guard rebellion. It was decided to withdraw him for Bucharest, by the Allied Control Comitee, apparently consider his candidacy for high office in the Ministry of Defense. During this time, we gather additional material on his traitorous activities, and finally get him out of the game....
Avramescu has been advised of the possibility of being called to Bucharest for talks on promotion. This, by his liaison became known to the German resident Gunner.
.....
RSHA for Shtrunk : "Urgent this telegram sent to Horia Sima. Avramescu leave from the front to enter the government as minister. Our chances of success grow.”
......
German involvement became apparent in the telegram-directive, submitted on 10 Mar.1945 from RSHA Vienna to Petrascu. Radiogram was received by the agent "Helmut" and came to the Soviets.

Posted by: Victor June 10, 2011 05:53 pm

The messages could very well have been an "intelligence intoxication" from the Axis side. I personally find it hard to believe that Avramescu was contemplating such actions, given the overall military situation of the time and the sheer difficulty of such an operation in the given conditions. He was one the most experienced Romanian front commanders at the time.

Posted by: Petre November 22, 2011 09:37 am

01/02 November 2010 Moscow
International Conference on "Personality and social group in the past and present of the Central and Eastern Europe: biographies, prosoprographies, group portraits"
Organizers: the Commission of Historians of Russia and Hungary, the Institute for Scientific Information on Social Sciences, Institute of Slavic Studies
Tatyana Pokivaylova (Institute of Slavic Studies) presented : "The mystery of the death of the 4th Romanian Front(?) commander, Gen.G.Avramescu March 3, 1945"
(Tatyana Pokivaylova is specialised in romanian issues). Text not found.

Posted by: MMM December 01, 2011 05:01 pm

QUOTE (Victor @ June 10, 2011 08:53 pm)

He was one the most experienced Romanian front commanders at the time.

Perhaps this was the reason for his untimely demise, then!
re: Pokivailova: she's quite a competent researcher - based on what I've read from her (in "Magazin Istoric", in the recent years). The confusion might come from the organisation of the Red Army in "Fronts" (practically, Army Groups) which also comprised the Romanian troops.

Posted by: Petre January 05, 2012 06:19 pm

General Avramescu's tunic with two straps for injury :
http://www.vedomstva-uniforma.ru/mundir6/krank2/28.html
http://www.vedomstva-uniforma.ru/mundir6/krank2/29.html

Posted by: Petre January 05, 2012 07:53 pm

QUOTE (Klemen @ July 12, 2004 11:08 pm)

Zivjo Mihai!
In my reply to you which I have sent to you via personal mail (and which I hope you have received) ... if your search in the Russian National War Archives by Mrs. Natalia or in the FSB Archive ... If your great-grandfather was trailed before send to Siberia...

Found on the Web this dialogue :
http://vif2ne.ru/rkka/forum/arhprint/8059

QUOTE

Iulie 2004
Salut,
Am o intebare, exista cumva in arhive vreo informatie despre un general roman Gheorghe Avramescu ?
(...) A luptat impreuna cu trupele lui Malinovski in Slovacia. În conformitate cu spusele vărului sau, Regele Mihai s-a gandita sa fie o alternativă ptr. prim-ministru in România. Cu această ocazie a fost chiar si un banchet la staff-ul mareşalului Malinovski. Plecarea sa a fost stabilita pentru 3 martie, şi pe 2 a a fost chemat la Cmd Fr.2Uk. în Lucenec de unde nu s-a mai întors.
Familia lui a fost arestata şi exilata in Siberia.
După 15 de ani, s-a primit de la Crucea Roşie că generalul a fost ucis în timpul bombardamentelor germane şi a fost îngropat în apropierea de Budapesta.
Cu toate acestea, rudele sunt sigure că l-a impuscat NKVD. În aceeaşi zi, au fost arestaţe şi ulterior suprimate alte 36 de persoane din anturajul său.
Are cineva un sfat unde sa se adreseze rudele (arhive NKVD, NKGB, similare) ?
Ms, Alexei.

Gen.Avramescu a fost arestat fie de SMERSh, fie de grupa operativa a Imputernicitului NKVD de la Fr2Uk. Daca a fost considerat POW si predat organului GUPVI, trebuie vazut la cartoteca GUPVI - Fond 463 RGVA … trebuie apelat la Natalia Samson Vladimirova, Moscova, 156-66-64. (Sala lectura a fostului THIDK...). Daca in cartoteca nu apare gen. Avramescu, inseamna ca si-a sfarsit zilele in mainile NKGB si intrebarea trebuie adresata la registratura FSB.
Dictionarul lui K.A.Zaleski "Aliatii Germaniei" scrie ca a fost condamnat si trimis in Siberia, unde a murit in lagar 1945. Putin probabil, dar se poate verifica la cartoteca Curtii supreme a F.Ruse.
Gleb Baraev

Posted by: yugit January 10, 2012 09:53 am

I think it will be a mistake to speculate what has really
happened to Avramescu, I also believe that ZAMO
archives will not release any info as they work
against fees and given the importance of the case they will
even increase the cost......which by the end of the day
and in long run their material may prove useless.

From biographies of Gen.Trofimenko who was
under Malinovsky and commanded the 27 army
is indirectly clear that SMERSH was eagger to eliminate
the Rumanian Army leadership which posed headaches
to the Russian command and those who potentially
posed an ideological threat . I doubt that Avramescu
was ever sent to Siberia but shot on spot by NKVD-
SMERSH on something Berya has approved or was
knowledgeable about,period.Trofimenko died early 1953.

http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img24/180/anton2y.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1

The photo is from the mentioned bios and the Rumanian
General on right corner who seems to be Churchills
double is unknown to me. Avramescu rarely chreered
or smilled on any of his photos...may have felt the troubles
to come ahead...which ended so bad for him and his family.

Alex K

PS : For further research I suggest two books I have
though I am lacking the time for deeper study:

"FROM HITLER'S DOORSTEEP " (Intel reports Allen Dulles 1942-45)
"HITLER's FORGOTTEN ALLY"

Posted by: Petre January 10, 2012 07:11 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ January 10, 2012 09:53 am)

I doubt that Avramescu was ever sent to Siberia but shot...

QUOTE (Internet)

In the late of 1950s the Romanian authorities were informed that Avramescu was killed by a strafing German aircraft 3 Mar.1945 near Jasbereni (Hu), though there was evidence suggesting he was killed by NKVD on the suspicion that he might had considered defecting his army to the German side.
He was initially buried in Budapest, Hungary; on 23 Oct 2000 his remains were brought back to Romania and were reburied with military honours in the Military Cemetery of Cluj Napoca.

Posted by: yugit January 10, 2012 09:50 pm

If remains were reburied in Rumania a pathological test
would have immediately revealled if a personal weapon
or an acft gun were involved ...isnt it ?

Posted by: 21 inf January 11, 2012 05:57 am

A romanian medical examination of remains of general Avramescu was made when he was exhumated in order to be moved in Romania and a full medical report was written.

Posted by: yugit January 11, 2012 09:17 am

Well then is all clear and concluded .

Posted by: 21 inf January 11, 2012 09:18 am

QUOTE (21 inf @ January 11, 2012 07:57 am)

A romanian medical examination of remains of general Avramescu was made when he was exhumated in order to be moved in Romania and a full medical report was written.

I dont know the results of the latest romanian medical examinations of the remains.

Posted by: Petre January 11, 2012 09:22 am

But some people (M.Dogaru ?) claimed it was no med. exam. And others said the remains had no clothes in his grave.

Posted by: yugit January 11, 2012 10:47 am

All :

From the same memoires I cited before, is absolutely
clear that there was no aerial activities of the enemy
on that perimeter of the front as far as the Germans
and Hungarians Air Forces were concerned. This type
of Katyn type elimination pattern fits SMERSH and
the Stalin prosecutor Vishinksy who was very often
scanning the Rumanian leadership while often in
Rumania. The single mistery remains the sudden
execution without a trial, the Russians must have
feared something real serious.

One thing though , from some books related to
Abwehr and Rumanian secret service 44/45 is
obvious that Avramescu was highly regarded by
the Germans and sooner or later he would been
executed anyways. SMERSH was fully knowledgeable
about this

Posted by: 21 inf January 11, 2012 11:36 am

QUOTE (Petre @ January 11, 2012 11:22 am)

But some people (M.Dogaru ?) claimed it was no med. exam. And others said the remains had no clothes in his grave.

I personally spoke with one romanian officer who was eyewitness at the medical exam performed when Avramescu was undigged for repatriation.

Posted by: yugit January 11, 2012 08:29 pm

If you spoke someone linked, then you must know
the death cause conclussion they arrived to once
he was reinterred in Rumania

Posted by: 21 inf January 11, 2012 11:09 pm

I dont. The subject didnt interested me, so I didnt asked the guy. The thing I know is that he was there and he just told me that it was a medical exam. It's all I know. I am not in touch with the officer long time now.

Posted by: yugit January 12, 2012 10:15 am

Thank you for the info

Posted by: MMM January 16, 2012 09:11 am

QUOTE (21 inf @ January 11, 2012 08:57 am)

A romanian medical examination of remains of general Avramescu was made when he was exhumated in order to be moved in Romania and a full medical report was written.

When was that? What doctors did that?

Posted by: 21 inf January 16, 2012 09:28 am

QUOTE (MMM @ January 16, 2012 11:11 am)

QUOTE (21 inf @ January 11, 2012 08:57 am)

A romanian medical examination of remains of general Avramescu was made when he was exhumated in order to be moved in Romania and a full medical report was written.

When was that? What doctors did that?

As I said above: at a little chit-chat with no connection with the subject we spoke (I and the guy I said) I found out that a medical exam was made and that's all I know. Please try to find who made the move of Avramescu's remain and ask them further details as I dont have any.

Posted by: MMM January 17, 2012 11:40 am

I mean - the exam was in the 1990's or some other timeframe?

Posted by: Petre January 21, 2012 09:24 am

http://www.fgmanu.ro/Carti/338/capitol_47

http://www.fgmanu.ro/Carti/338/capitol_49

Posted by: MMM January 23, 2012 06:02 am

QUOTE (Petre @ January 21, 2012 12:24 pm)

http://www.fgmanu.ro/Carti/338/capitol_47

http://www.fgmanu.ro/Carti/338/capitol_49

So? WHY should one believe that? I mean, the ex-"legion" memorialists are NOT what one would call a reliable source!!!

Posted by: Petre January 31, 2012 09:16 am

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=H-Diplo&month=9808&week=d&msg=JUAIhx7pvxWGaKme/oQyzw&user=&pw=

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-diplo&month=9808&week=d&msg=kzGmD7CBWABXBoXWbojCOA&user=&pw=

Posted by: Petre May 05, 2012 01:50 pm

http://www.historia.ro/exclusiv_web/general/articol/generalul-avramescu-tradator-victima-nkvd