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| Posted by: Stefan January 21, 2004 01:28 am |
| Hello all! First of all I'd like to say this website and forum are absolutely great and contain a wealth of information I could not have found in any other place.
I hope this topic has not already been covered, if so feel free to direct me to the proper thread and close this one. I recently purchased Robert David Kaplan's "Balkan Ghosts" in an effort to improve my knowledge of the Balkans. In his writings about Romania however I have found some intriguing claims about the Romanian involvement in the holocaust. Here are a few excerpts: "In 1941 and 1942, Antonescu oversaw the deportation of 185,000 Jews from Bessarabaia ... to Transdniestria, where forward units of the Romanian army were setting up the only non-German-run extermination camps in Europe. From late 1941 until the middle of 1942, in this obscure and remote theater of the war, the Romanian army murdered every one of these people, stripping them naked and shooting them in subzero temperatures. On a few occasions, when soldiers were low on bullets they shot only the adults and buried the children alive." "It was too much even for Adolf Eichmann, the SS officer in charge of carrying out the extermination of European Jewry. In early 1942, Eichmann pleaded with Antonescu to halt the killings temporarily so the job could be done more cleanly by Einsatzgruppen ... But the Romanians were in a killing frenzy ...Antonescu ignored Eichmann." "The historian Raul Hilberg, who documented the Holocaust in Romania in his 1961 book, The Destruction of the European Jews, asserted that in no other country during World War II, except Germany itself, did national character play such a role in the fate of the Jews as in Romania" Now, I'm not knowledgeable about these events so I would appreciate some more experienced comments on the above claims. They seem quite serious and I'm really not sure if the extent of Romanian involvement in the Holocaust is accurately portrayed or simply if Mr. Kaplan has an axe to grind. The passages in bold struck me as being particularly explicit. Of course, there are other elements that lead me to doubt the accuracy of Mr. Kaplan's research, such as the fact that virtually every other Romanian word in his book is misspelled. Nevertheless, I'd appreciate your take on this issue. Thanks! |
| Posted by: aerialls January 21, 2004 04:44 am |
| http://www.romanianjewish.org/en/index_scharf.html
http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemId=7768 |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 21, 2004 05:19 am |
| My first opinion after reading this:
I've never ever heard of this incident being mentioned. It sounds far-fetched and not at all aligned to Romania's policy during World War II. Having said that, however, I also think that such terrible accusations should not be dismissed blindly, without researching the subject. So I hope that other forum members have concrete arguments (pro or con) to bring forward and reach a conclusion. |
| Posted by: aerialls January 21, 2004 06:25 am |
| si pe teritoriul Romaniei de azi:
quote: Cartea prof. Zundel nu face insa obiectul articolului nostru. Un lucru ramane insa clar: nimic nu este stabilit odata pentru totdeauna. Traim intr'o epoca a relativismului, in care ceea ce pãrea adevarat ieri este dovedit ca fals astazi. Istoria nu face nici ea exceptie. In cazul Romaniei regula pare inversata. Ceea ce pãrea adevarat ieri se incearca a se dovedi fals astazi. De exemplu, astazi diversele "centre" de studii evreiesti incearca sa acrediteze ideia cã în Romania dinaintea si in timpul celui de-al II-lea Razboi Mondial ar fi existat un holocaust evreiesc [in miniatura cu cel din Germania] ce ar fi consemnat aproximativ 400.000 de evrei dupa unii, 600.000 dupa altii. Cifrele sunt in evidenta contradictie cu datele oficiale ale anchetelor guvernamentale din acele timpuri. Iata ce gasim in "Encyclopedia Iudaica Jerusalem" la pagina 1472: "Garda de Fier tinea conferinte si demonstratii studentesti deseori acompaniate de razmerite anti-evreiesti in care distrugeau sinagoge, magazine si ziare evreiesti ca in Oradea-Mare si Cluj [1922] si in Timisoara [1938] ... In perioada Iunie-Septembrie 1940 Garda de Fier reconciliata cu regele Carol al II-lea, a comis masacre impotriva evreilor in special in Moldova. La 6 Septembrie 1940, Garda de Fier proclama Statul National-Legionar impreuna cu Ion Antonescu. Imediat au fost promulgate legi pentru eliminarea evreilor din viata politica, culturala si economica a Romaniei. Telul final al Garzii de Fier era deportarea tuturor evreilor [N.R. -deportare deci, nu ucidere]. O lupta pentru putere a dus la rebeliunea legionara din 19-20 Ianuarie 1941, in care au fost ucisi 120 de evrei in Bucuresti si cca. 30 de alti evrei in provincie [in special in Ploiesti si Constanta]. Rebeliunea a fost inabusita si Conducatorul miscarii legionare Horia Sima impreuna cu alti lideri legionari s'au refugiat in strainatate. Odata cu izbucnirea razboiului contra Rusiei Sovietice [Iunie 1941], fortele germane impreuna cu politia antonesciana la care s'au alaturat elemente ale Garzii de Feir au comis atacuri impotriva evreilor ca Pogromul de la Iasi [29 Iunie 1941] si "trenurile mortii", si alte atacuri in Moldova soldate cu 7.500-10.000 de victime". Deci sã recapitulãm: In timpul rebeliunii, legionarii au ucis 120 de evrei in Bucuresti si 30 de alti evrei in provincie. Totalul "pogromului" dela Iasi, "trenurile mortii", etc. s'au soldat cu 7.500-10.000 de victme. Adunând ajungem la cifra maxima de 10.150 de evrei, victime ale Holocaustului in Romania. Cifra este data de catre "centrele" evreiesti de studii de atunci. Dupa cifrele oficiale ale guvernului Antonescu, care nici el nu putea fi banuit de iubire fata de legionari, rebeliunea s'a incheiat cu 416 morti, 370 in Bucuresti si 46 in provincie, din care 120 erau evrei. In perioada 6 Septembrie 1940 si 20 Ianuarie 1941, tot dupa datele guvernului Antonescu, legionarii au facut 73 de victime in majoritate formate de grupul celor detinuti la Jilava pentru crimele comise contra tineretului tãrii. Niciunul nu era evreu. Nu putem decat sa constatam discrepanta chiar in cifrele de atunci maximum 10.150 de evrei, si enorma cifra maxima de 600.000 de evrei prezentata astazi de catre forurile evreiesti mondiale. |
| Posted by: aerialls January 21, 2004 06:31 am |
| alta versiune:
June 20, 2003/Sivan 20 5763, Vol. 55, No. 43 Romanian Holocaust denial RAFAEL MEDOFF The Romanian government's statement that "there was no Holocaust inside Romanian borders between the years 1940-1945" is a shocking and blatant falsehood. It is also the latest example of a new type of Holocaust-denial. The fact is that more than 400,000 Jews from Romania were murdered during the Holocaust. Nearly half of them were machine-gunned to death by the German "Einsatzgruppen" squads, assisted by the Romanian army, in 1941. Many of the remainder were murdered in Romanian death camps. But Romania is not alone in distorting the facts of the Holocaust. The journalist Christopher Hitchens has adopted a line from Holocaust deniers, claiming it is "now undisputed" that "there were no gas chambers or extermination camps on German soil, in other words, at Belsen or Dachau or Buchenwald." In a similar vein, Arab spokesmen routinely claim that the Palestinian Arabs played no role in the Holocaust. This assertion surfaced among the Israeli Arabs who recently visited Auschwitz. Yossi Klein Halevi, who took part in the visit, reported in The New Republic that as they entered the Auschwitz grounds, one of the Arab participants remarked: "Arabs had nothing to do with this." Halevi writes that he thought, "What about ... the Mufti, the Palestinian leader who spent the war years as a Nazi propagandist in Berlin?" The Mufti - Haj Amin el-Husseini, the undisputed religious and political leader of the Palestinian Arabs - also organized Arab sabotage squads that parachuted into the Mideast to attack Allied facilities. He also persuaded the Nazis to reject a prisoner exchange that would have freed 4,000 Jewish children, who were then shipped to Auschwitz. The Mufti recruited Bosnian Muslims for an all-Muslim unit of the SS called the "Handschar" division; 38 of its officers were tried as war criminals. Now contrast the Romanian and Arab denials with the actions of the leaders of Austria, Croatia and Poland. Then-Chancellor Franz Vranitsky of Austria admitted before parliament in 1991 that the Austrians were not "Hitler's first victims," but rather willing participants in Nazism. Then-president of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman, publicly apologized in 1994 for a book he had authored in which he whitewashed the Croatian role in the slaughter. Polish President Aleksander Kwaeniewski last year publicly acknowledged that Polish citizens, not the German occupation forces, were primarily responsible for the massacre of 1,600 Jews in the Polish town of Jedwabne in July 1941. Whether or not Romanian and Arab leaders acknowledge their roles in the Holocaust remains to be seen. However, their extreme distortions of Holocaust history are nothing less than a new version of Holocaust denial. Rafael Medoff is director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies. Visit the Web page, www.WymanInstitute.org. |
| Posted by: aerialls January 21, 2004 06:44 am |
| .... |
| Posted by: Victor January 21, 2004 08:10 pm |
| aerialls, you know the Forum Rules. Please post in English. Stefan, look here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=118 |
| Posted by: Najroda January 21, 2004 08:54 pm |
| If this is true, it is shocking. And it is in the interest of the Romanian people that the truth is revealed, so that it can deal with it. I repeat if is true.
Germany is again a respected country, because it dealt with it's past. Unfortunately most communist countries never did, they simply did not have the oportunity. This is true for all countries that were morE or less aligned with Nazi Germany: Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia (yes! there was a whole SS division that consisted of 20.000 Bosniaks), Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria. But I would not acquit the allied either. They kne exactly what was going on in the death camps. The aerial photo's are online. Yet they bombed the IG Farben factory at Auschwitz-Birkenau, but not the incinerators a few kilometers from it. But you hardly ever hear of this... |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 21, 2004 11:32 pm | ||||
Absolutely true. Not only is it respected again. It's back in the saddle amongst the greatest in Europe. Precisely because it dealt with it's past. Not that a choice was given I might add.
Strange, they should have bombed the concentrations camps to kill the prisoners to prevent them from dying ? I doubt the Western Allies knew what was really going on there before actually walking into the camps. They had doubts, fears, questions but they did not know. The extreme outrage amongst allied soldiers at the discovery of the reality is testament to the shock of those men when first put face to face with the truth of the death camps. |
| Posted by: Najroda January 21, 2004 11:38 pm | ||||
No, of course not! Only the incinerators! Of course they could be rebuiltm but they could also be bombed again, and without them, the Nazis simply could not have disposed of such a large quantity of bodies. So it would have saved lives. Hard to estimate how many.
The men at the ground, sure. But the presidents, ministers and generals knew exactly what was going on there. |
| Posted by: inahurry January 26, 2004 10:01 pm |
| The juicy topic. Same (EDIT: old) lies and same old friendly protection from the powers that be.
The Wiesenthal guy is convinced Columbus was sent in a secret mission to discover a new land for the people of Israel. Didn’t read the book but I’m sure he’s a master with fiction. I know it’s a public forum but I have the feeling I’m disturbing a friendly (sort of speaking) gathering of likeminded people so I leave you with your problems. Btw, Victor, why do you struggle so much, it’s already decided we will pay the cash too, after giving them half the country. If I were in the Israelis place I wouldn’t count on those money though even if they’re facing desperate times. |
| Posted by: Alexandru H. January 27, 2004 12:18 am | ||
You worry too much, inahurry.  |
| Posted by: Victor January 27, 2004 10:24 am | ||
To you it may be a problem of money. To me it is about the truth and preventing others from presenting it in a distorted way (in both extremes). |
| Posted by: Relu January 27, 2004 04:29 pm |
| I cannot believe in any of those Holocaust claims till I don't see pictures of the dead, pictures of the Romanian concentration camps of Transnistria... Where are they? It is well known that a Red Cross International Commission visited some deported Jews in Transnistria, and when the Jews were told if they needed something, they said, no, that's just great, Romanian authorities are respecting us... And also, remember that it was in time of war, and many Jews who were expulsed in Transnistria, were from simple motives of illegal trespassing in Romania. So the idea of Romanian 'concentration camps', as did the Jew Kaplan state, is hillarous! Where are the 185000 corpses? :question: Is it so easy to hide 185000 skeletons :question: ? Remember the Katyn massacre where more than 5000 Poles were shot... And the Soviets, who reconquered Transnistria??? They had all the motives to point out on 'Fascist Romanian brutality', and search for deads... But none of this happened... Instead, we have bizarre photos of the 'death trains' at Iasi, where instead of Romanian gendarmes, you see typicall Soviet policemen (that in 1941!!!!!!!! :loool: ), with Soviet visor caps, you see naked ( :question: :rollroll: ) corpses near the wagons... And you hear absurde stories that 1500 Jews died in trains, on a distance of 20km (Iasi - Podul Iloaiei)!!!! But moron, Romanian prisoners were stuked in cattle wagons the time of two weeks, in Siberian vacation after Stalingrad and after 23 August 1944! And very few of them ever died on the ride!!! And I fail to see how those Soviet wagons were more confortable than the Romanian brand... Cattle wagons cannot kill cattle, as they cannot kill human beings!
Use your logic! Even Michael Roller, the Jew who re-wrote Romanian history during the early RPR stalinist period, even him, never mentionned of such absurdities! :roll: |
| Posted by: Relu January 27, 2004 04:40 pm |
| Victor, in our days, the historical truth is less important than the profits that we can make of something... Just look at 'Dracula'... :ro: :loool: |
| Posted by: inahurry January 27, 2004 06:05 pm |
| You hope too much, AH. :wink: |
| Posted by: inahurry January 27, 2004 06:18 pm |
| For the Jewish organizations is a problem of cash and, in fact, not a problem at all. For those who will pay, that is Romanians of today, it is a very serious problem. I have no objection if, let’s say, citizen Iliescu or citizen Nastase or citizen Dinu Giurescu pay anything they want to anyone they want from their own personal assets. |
| Posted by: dragos January 27, 2004 06:19 pm |
| Persecutions and purges of Jews in Romania are documented and eye-witnessed. This is undeniable. What can be discussed is the scale of this actions.
My grandmother and her sister were in Odessa during the war, and they saw the ghetto guarded by Romanian soldiers, where the poor people were literally dying of starvation and disease. |
| Posted by: Victor January 27, 2004 09:19 pm | ||
The death trains episode was mentioned in official army reports. The trains went as far as Calarasi IIRC, not just to Podu Iloaiei. |
| Posted by: aerialls January 27, 2004 09:49 pm |
| Wouldn't it be better to call it a Moldavian Holocaust?
Even Eminescu has a part of the guilt...the most shovinistic poet weever had and he was unequalled. When you think that Hitler started this bussiness in 42, I wonder from who he got the ideas. *translated by moderator* *aerialls this is not the first time I have to translate your posts. The Forum rules are clear.* |
| Posted by: Indrid January 28, 2004 07:11 am | ||
what the hell is this? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: somebody should translate itt so that the foreifg forumites could raise an eyebrow too :nope: |
| Posted by: inahurry January 28, 2004 09:34 pm |
| Jews persecution, anti-Semitic laws is one thing, Romanian made genocide is another. And the big rush is to extort money from the Romanians. All they needed was a servile government, control over what is extracted from archives and selected historians to “arbitrate” an “academic” board and, strangely, once the known beforehand conclusions are drawn they will automatically trigger political and financial consequences on a dramatic scale.
Romanians of today are in no way responsible of events that happened long time ago. What is happening is simple obedience before a force that is perceived as extremely powerful, a blend of cowardice and hypocrisy that has nothing to do with either study of history or healing of old wounds. On the other side, the extortionist can’t invoke any moral ground. The trick is to dissociate the extortion from the academic studies and hence the rage when the connection is bluntly exposed. The purpose of the agitation isn’t to bring forth don’t know what overlooked documents, the purpose is to prepare the public opinion for the next phases. There will be lot of publicity for the Romanian “crimes” (there will be made no distinction between a regime and the Romanian nation, classic guilt through association scenario) followed by a lot of discretion for the huge amounts of money Romania will have to pay. This is relatively simple as the control over Romanian mass media is almost complete (an important part of this control is in Jewish hands – examples are notorious – but the obedience of almost the entire mass media is guaranteed anyway). The other strategic goal is the extension of what already happened elsewhere (and even in Romania on a smaller scale), the known conclusions will open the road for the same kind of anti-democratic regulations enforced in Germany, Canada, France, etc. (with the notable exception of USA, for now), countries where brutal, open persecution of anyone who dares to think differently has become a reality. When “truth” needs police and prisons to be protected from intellectual inquiry all is pretty clear. |
| Posted by: aerialls February 04, 2004 02:02 am |
| ok..sorry for my imbecile post, but this is not what i meant.... I was not talkin' about Eminescu givin' ideas to hitler gezz... Whatever...as you know maybe ... the antijewish sentiment was more higher in Moldova then anywere else before ww2... And i was just wondering why... and debate on some of the causes. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 04, 2004 03:25 am | ||
Because Jews were more numerous in Moldova than anywhere else in Romania! Until the 40's, Jews were 50% of the population of Iasi for example. And most of those Jews did not enter legally in Romania, so the anti-Jewish sentiment was natural from the local host nation.
What is shameful, is that you accuse the Romanian Moldavians of Holocaust, and you nearly qualified Eminescu like a hitlerite (or Hitler like an Eminescian???) and a bandit! :mad: |
| Posted by: aerialls February 04, 2004 03:57 am | ||
don't know... but 200.000 Rumanians from NW Transilvania were also transported in cattle wagons in the south... and nobody died. how come an such huge figure? I also got to mention that the figure is extracted from the registers of the jewish centers existing in Rumania at that date. -------- Getu... I do not qualified Eminescu has an hitlerite! I was an great poet indeed but he was also an nationalist. I was refering to the obvieus antijewish sentiment in Moldavia at that date and I have used an bad retorix! "I have eated some words" I should have been more explicit. / Sorry. |
| Posted by: aerialls February 04, 2004 04:00 am | ||
and i think you should edit that! I don't think this was an issue. wateva i guess i should eat my lame excuses towards Eminescu too. |
| Posted by: dragos February 05, 2004 08:21 pm |
| Several days ago I saw on TV a talk-show about Holocaust, with the participation of Romanian academicians Dan Berindei, Constantin Balaceanu Stolnici and the ambasador of Israel in Romania. The Israel's official specified a number of 200.000 Jews being victims of Romanian Holocaust. Romanian academicians disputed this number, as the commision assigned to research the archives regarding the Holocaust did not make a report. Dan Berindei specified that in Romania did not exist a real Holocaust, as it was in the territories administered by Germany, and a better formula for what had happened in Romania would be: "the wing of Holocaust has passed over Romania". |
| Posted by: Najroda February 05, 2004 10:52 pm | ||
How did the Israeli ambasador react to that? |
| Posted by: dragos February 05, 2004 11:02 pm |
| She kept saying that the Holocaust in Romania existed and it should not be mixed with the persecution of other minorities (like gipsies'). She accented Transdnestra, at the comments concerning the Holocaust inside Romanian borders. |
| Posted by: Najroda February 05, 2004 11:23 pm | ||
What did she mean by not mixing the holocaust with perscution of others? Do Jews, Gypsies, Romanians etc. not have the same colour of blood? It is true that the persecution and destrutcion of Jews was planned and well orchestrated, but the same is true for Gypsies, Homosexuals, Jehovah witnesses, disables people, or "just" political oponents. As far as I am concerned it's all part of the holocaust. But she's right about the holocaust in Romania. It occured there, as it did in any other country allied to or occupied by Germany. Yes, it was mostly the Germans who orchestrated it. But we didn't exactly give them a hard time, save one or two exceptions, like the February strike in Amsterdam. But that not save 90% of Dutch Jews from perishing. I get a very bad taste in my mouth when people want to bagatelize the extent of the holocaust, especially in countries who practically invited the Germans like Romania and Hungary. |
| Posted by: dragos February 05, 2004 11:38 pm |
| Yet an industrial mechansim of extermination did not exist in Romania. This does not absolves the purges and killings of minorities, but this is not singular among the states involved in war, even those fighting against Axis. |
| Posted by: Najroda February 05, 2004 11:52 pm |
| Yes, but an "industrial mechanism" that prepared them for the death camps existed. I think most, perhaps all, camps were in Poland, Germany and Austria (probably in this order), but it would be ridiculous to argue that the holocaust only took place there. The holocaust is not just the destruction camps. It is the whole process starting with laws, some people hiding the "subjects", others snitching on them, their apprehension, collection in passage camps or ghettos and transportation to the destruction camps. If this happened, then we have a holocaust, even if the actual extermination took place in a different country. Never mind the tens of thousands that perished before they even got there. |
| Posted by: dragos February 06, 2004 12:05 am |
| Jews within Romanian administeres territories were not sent to German concentration camps. But there were cases when Romanians took over concentration camps set up by Germans, as at Rezina and Rabnita, after the front moved to the east in 1941. |
| Posted by: Victor February 06, 2004 08:06 pm | ||
The number of Jews evacuated from Iasi on 30 June 1941 was 4,430. They were loaded into two trains (2,530 in the first one and 1,900 in the second), which were directed to Calarasi. The train ride was normally of about 12 hours. They arrived there on 6 July, after 168 hours. 2,521 died during the trip, because of the lack of water, food and even air. |
| Posted by: septimiu February 08, 2004 01:28 pm |
| I think there is something true in Kaplan's book. The figures are different from author to author because the objectives are different.
I didn't read Kapaln' book. It is strange that the Jewish authors emphasize the facts about the Iron Guard Rebelion and what was happening in Iasi in June 1941 and there are few words about Dalnik, Bogdanovka, Vapniarka and other places where Romanian Army was in charge. About Dalnik there are a lots of documents. The issue with Eichmann it is something stupid. See what Alois Brunner(Eichmann deputy) the last big Nazi which Simon Wiesenthal and other Jewish organizations hunted for said about Holocaust. The fact with us, Romanians is that we are not able to come accross with our past, to recognize and to forgive the crimes that we did. It is easy to admit that we did something. See the horrors in Romanians prison made by comunists during 1947-1962. There were Romanians guards and police officers. It could happenned at Dalnik and in other places on the eastern front as well. |
| Posted by: aerialls February 08, 2004 03:08 pm |
| [quote]. See the horrors in Romanians prison made by comunists during 1947-1962. [/quote]
there were beatings and humiliating treatment towards some of the inmates... when you use the term "horror" it could be understand ussually in an different way. Be carrefully with the terms you use. btw.. army personel and officers who fought dedicated to the eastern front campaign were the main subjects. |
| Posted by: septimiu February 09, 2004 09:50 am |
| "there were beatings and humiliating treatment towards some of the inmates... when you use the term "horror" it could be understand ussually in an different way. Be carrefully with the terms you use."
I don't agree with you. There were much more than simple "beatings and humiliating towards some of the inmates". In "MY" opinion there were horrors and hopefully will never happenned again. I know that the subject is "Eastern Front". I want to mention that if we could done the "beatings and humiliating treatment" in our prisons and labor camps during 1947-1962 we could done also in 1941-1943 on the Eastern Front. |
| Posted by: dragos February 09, 2004 10:27 am |
| [quote]I know that the subject is "Eastern Front". I want to mention that if we could done the "beatings and humiliating treatment" in our prisons and labor camps during 1947-1962 we could done also in 1941-1943 on the Eastern Front.[/quote]
This does not necessarily mean Holocaust. |
| Posted by: Dr_V February 09, 2004 09:43 pm |
| I won't argue about the so called "Romanian holocaust" now, even if I tend to believe that the numbers and facts are severely and repeatedly exagerated in the mass-media today. As I see it, truth is that even if in Romania the jues had suffered, the conditions weren't even nearly as bad as in Germany, thaugh some people would like to make us belive so.
This post is about a fact that I'm not sure was ever made public. My source is my girlfriend, whos grandfather was a witness and participant (sadly he's no longer alive today). Her grandfather was a "vicar" (a kind of orthodox high priest) in the Romanian church administration. In 1940 the Romanian "Patriarh" (the orthodox equvalent of the Pope) called for all the higher priests at a meeting, without telling them why exactly. When they all gathered, the Patriarh made a speech about the expected persecutions on the jews in Romania. He told them that "The jews belive in the same God as we do, they're our brothers into faith.". Then he discussed the strategys the church has to adopt to protect the Romanian jews as much as possible from the Germans and the natzist followers in Romania. For what I've learned, the actions of the Romanian church in this matter were substancial, from influencing political decissions as much as possible (in Romania the priests are highly respected by everyone, including military leaders and politicians) to even helping small groups of jews to leave the country (illegaly) or change identity. All priests that could be trusted were discretely instructed to include in their preachings the idea that it's the duty of any christian to love and help the brother jew and to advise the christian believers to be humain with the fellow man regardless of his religion. To what extent those actions gave the expected results can be debated, but the fact that many priests tried to do something is sure, I've spoke with many elders that told me about that. One thing is certain: the common Romanian had nothing to do with the idea of exterminating jews and in many cases ordinary people ignored the rules and did what they felt to be the right thing. And as in Romania the government wasn't convinced by the natzi polithics (about the rasial purge at least), the extent of the jew persecutions was far lower than in other places. |
| Posted by: aerialls February 10, 2004 06:29 am |
| http://www.raft.ro/detaliu.asp?IDCarte=1111&IdDomeniu=0703
meanwile something new to digest: http://accente.com.md/index.php?nr=118&cat=politic |
| Posted by: DevanG February 10, 2004 09:49 am |
| i really don't believe that a holocaust was in romania , sure there were some people deported but from my point of view a part that is played by the institutes for holocaust studies is as a political weapon ... if u say something that we , israel don't like , then u are an antisemite , what happened with the choice of non-believing .. ?
nowadays , israel and the US are wondering why they not that much liked in europe , because during the last 50 years israel has conducted a witch-hunt in this domain .. ( i really believe there was a holocaust in germany though ) sure it's founded , i realize they have lost a great deal of people in those years , but i also understand that the people responsible for this have been dealt with , and another nazi party will not surface again , but and i say again , nowadays , the jewish communities have become something like sacred lambs , if u say something against one , because u really don't like him ( not his minority ) , then u become a general enemy , a madman , a antisemite terrorist ... now i know that after '47 they have lost their houses , land and everything else , but , that was done by the russians , not by romanians , it was done by a lot of russians and 2 romanian armoured divisons that served under the russians , so why should we 23 million pay for the deeds for 30 k , i mean their money , properties and everything else haven't gone into my pocket , haven't gone into you pocket .. so why should we pay , just because we are romanians , but that is discrimination .. because if these institutes in the study of the holocaust would really do their bussiness , they would know which romanians are responsible and that 600 k jews were not killed in romania .. ps : i have seen in the last 15 years how this number keeps on growins with each new book of these historians , who just happen to be jews .. so i wonder why do they keep increasing the number ? btw , has someone here read the 25 protocols of the sion's wisemen .. because if not , u really should .. just so to see what kind of sacred lambs they are , and that was in the 1870's .. ps : if u really want to see what how israel was really formed and how in 1917 , the english stole land from the palestinians to form israel , keep on reading ppl ... did u knew that out of 100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 97 were born jews , but some years before the revolution they changed their name to russian one .. does anyone know that wall street ppl , in us have given most of the money for the 1917 revolution to trotzki ... ? |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 10, 2004 10:50 am | ||
This single sentence epitomize the rest. "100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 97 were born jews" So what ??? What's your point ? That Jew = Evil ??? Can I play too ? "100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 100 where men" Kill all men ! Are you trying to beat Goebbels at his own game ? Or don't you realize what you are saying ? Strana Mechty, mmm ? Meet me in a circle of equals ! |
| Posted by: DevanG February 10, 2004 11:30 am |
| what i am trying to say that that is not normal for a revolution which is said to be of the russian people ..
btw , did u knew that leaflets in may areas of the russia where the revolution took place were written in idish .. that is , the leaflets to be read by all comissars .. so you draq the conclusion .. before the 1900 the jews were persecuted in most corners of europe .. my opinion is that the 1917 revolution , was to make a new state for jews mainly , as the ruling class ( u know the soviet motto , everyone is equal , but some are more equal than others ) ... as many of their comissars and a lot of their rulers were jewish .. if u think i drew a wrong conclusion please let me know how many churches were actually destroyed by the comunists in the revolution and just how many sinagoges were destroyed ... compare the percentages ... yes we will meet , i will be in the sky-blue shadow cat .. u know the one with gaus rifle and srm streak missiles ... but first i have to drop laetitzia at the apartment .. she said she'll make wieneze schnitzels ...
i suppose u are a true-born so what kind of trial do you want to " discuss " ? ps : death to the jade falcon ... ghost bear rulez ... pps : like i stated in the previous post .. it just takes to say some truth , uncomfortable one .. to pe considered and antisemite , terorit , madman .. the thing is that i have no love for goebels , the man was a fanatic , who tried everything to get to a higher bureaucratical position .. to be frankly , i don't even know what he said ... quod erat demonstratum |
| Posted by: Indrid February 10, 2004 11:51 am | ||||||||
this is true. sadly it is a very nasty bussiness.
please tell me Stalin was not jew :mrgreen:
you still believe they were real? because it looked like the work of mediocre minds to me, thing that cannot be atributed to the jewish leadership.
so you think you are readu to cut the tree down and accept the consequences... |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 10, 2004 12:15 pm | ||||||||||||
The Jewish Russians were part of Russia too. Like the Cossacks.
No, can you post a pic of such a leaflet ? I would like to see one.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However this one is unlikely to be upgraded to historical fact. The myth of the Jewish Bolshevik Conspiration has been worn out by the nazis.
Yes. You started with this : if u say something against one , because u really don't like him ( not his minority ) , then u become a general enemy And then later you forgot the individual ("him") level and proceeded to empty your cartridges on the minority.
Ha ha , Stravag. Jade Falcon rule !! Trial of grievance.
Well, just re-read yourself and you will have some idea. |
| Posted by: Victor February 10, 2004 08:03 pm |
| Here are some of the events witnessed by lt. av. Eugen "Matra" Marinescu (one of the best Romanian bomber observers, with over 240 missions). Unfortunately only in Romanian.
http://www.virtualarad.net/orizont_aviatic/decembrie_2003/articol6/articol_6.htm |
| Posted by: dragos February 10, 2004 09:32 pm |
| Interesting article, albeit it does not seem to be related to holocaust. For those who can't read in Romanian, it is about witnessing reprisals against civilians suspected to be partisans, particularly the execution of a group of women, as part of a series of executions that took part on a regularly basis at Odessa. |
| Posted by: DevanG February 11, 2004 02:56 pm |
| u forgot to say about the story of the subofficer that was in charge with that particular execution ..
it would be nice to know the dmografic situation of the area .. like how many were actually russians , and how many romanians and about the rest ... that would explain probably some things ... that's unfortunately the tragedy of was for civilians .. to be caught in the middle ... |
| Posted by: petru February 12, 2004 04:28 pm |
| It was never a Romanian claim of Odessa. Beyond Dnister the territory was only administrated but never annexed. Probably there are few romanians in the area (except the ones that were moved forcefully). |
| Posted by: dragos February 12, 2004 05:15 pm |
| But since it was administered by Romanians, Romanians are responsible for what had happened there. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 12, 2004 09:55 pm |
| And? What happened in Transnistria??? Nothing that bloody to kill 10.000 Jews, 50.000, 100.000, 200.000, 300.000 or 600.000! The best proof is the trial of professor Gheorghe Alexianu, by a "people's court" in Odessa after August 23, 1944. Alexianu was the only axis "gauleiter" discharged by the Soviets, from the total of 11 (10 Germans and one Romanian - all the Germans were executed).
And I hope nobody is stupid enough to try to contradict this : The Soviets had all the interest to find enough proofs to condemn the "fascist warmongers", judged on their soil and by their authorities. So facts are facts. Unfortunately, the Romanian "People's Court" condemned him to death on May 17, 1946. That was mainly because of his past activity as a Romanian anti-communist bourgeois and professor in law. Alexianu was executed on June 1, 1946 in the same lot with Marshal Ion Antonescu, Mihai Antonescu and General Vasiliu. Getu' |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 12, 2004 10:04 pm | ||
Petru wrote :
Till the 19th century, Romanians formed more than 60% of the population of the lands between the Nistru and the Bug. At the time of Miron Costin, those lands were controlled by the Romanian principality of Moldavia... 
In ancient times, the region was inhabited by the Tyragetae (the Getae of the Nistru - Tyras = Nistru). In the 19th century, Russian deznationalization brought the land to its actual ethnic composition ; the Romanians being found mainly along the Nistru, sometimes in compact groupes, sometimes mixed with russophones. Best regards, Getu' |
| Posted by: dragos February 12, 2004 10:17 pm | ||||||
What do you want to demonstrate with these numbers ? Below 10.000 is a convenable account ? The question is whether there were orders for systematic killings coming from the top, or not.
I don't believe that the Soviets made a habit in finding the truth in their trials.
Which are... ? |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 12, 2004 10:38 pm | ||||||||
dragos wrote :
I want to demonstrate that maybe even 1.000 were not executed by Romanian troops, just because they were Jews. Yes, there where executions, I will not deny this! The Romanian HQ in Odessa was destroyed, there was intense partisan activity and Soviet diversion. Romanians were also murdered, deported, and that in number of hundreds of thousands (since 1940) ; soldiers, civilians from Bessarabia, N. Transylvania etc. Nearly everybody suffered because of the war. But I don't come with bullshit stuff like "who suffered the most" and give me money for this and that, and Romanians killed, killed, killed!. Dragos, it's all a question of money ; only this stimulates the hundreds of thousands of Jews and Gypsies "brutally murdered by Romanians"... But that's only on paper ; yet we must find the corpses... At Katyn were assassinated more than 5.000 Polish officers, and the corpses were found 2-3 years after the massacre. So you cannot hide hundreds and thousands of cadavers... But hundreds of thousands??? Or are they invisible? Oh, no! I found a better one! Romanian authorities built giant dismantable crematoriums, and the ashes were thrown in the Black Sea! 
Dragos, even killing a single human being is bad if I follow your logic, which is pretty true. But then, I suggest you and Victor (no offense) to shut down this forum because it treats of an aspect of the human being which is purely criminal : WAR. In war you must murder, and you can get murdered.
Why must you arrive to this? I can say to you : GENERALIZATION, but I won't. The other 10 German (nazi) gauleiters were all found guilty of various crimes from the Soviet perspective (of the winner) like : reprisals, looting etc. And they were executed... Why Alexianu should have been an exception? :question:
Facts are aproximately like this : During the period that Transnistria was under Romanian authority (with Gh. Alexianu as governor), there were no mass killings or massacres. The region was also pretty well administered by Romania. Locals generally appreciated Romanian administration as efficient. Regards, Getu' |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 13, 2004 09:22 pm |
| [quote]Dragos, it's all a question of money ; only this stimulates the hundreds of thousands of Jews and Gypsies "brutally murdered by Romanians"... [/quote]
Bullcrap. You don't understand Jews. They don't need your dirty money anymore. I hate to bring the news to you Geto, but today they have their own State. They want recognition for the past and the present. As long as you deny this you will paddle against the flow of history and most of actual world. Your racist battle is already lost. Don't drag Romania down into the pit with you. I suggest this : leave your Canadian hut and go live one month in Israel. You will understand much. You speak strongly about people you don't know at all. |
| Posted by: dragos February 13, 2004 10:09 pm |
| Chandernagore, there is no need to be so aggressive. It is not only about recognition, because the state of Israel asks for monetary compensation.
[quote]I want to demonstrate that maybe even 1.000 were not executed by Romanian troops, just because they were Jews.[/quote] (emphasize by Dragos) Since you are not sure I assume you have no documents or reports whatsoever. The testimonies of eye witnesses shows that systematic executions took place. Then why make hazardous statements ? [quote]Dragos, even killing a single human being is bad if I follow your logic, which is pretty true. But then, I suggest you and Victor (no offense) to shut down this forum because it treats of an aspect of the human being which is purely criminal : WAR. In war you must murder, and you can get murdered.[/quote] We don't discuss philosophy but war crimes. [quote]Why must you arrive to this? I can say to you : GENERALIZATION, but I won't. The other 10 German (nazi) gauleiters were all found guilty of various crimes from the Soviet perspective (of the winner) like : reprisals, looting etc. And they were executed... Why Alexianu should have been an exception?[/quote] About the Soviet trials, I dare to generalize. The result of such trials was not decided by proofs, but of what was dictated from top. [quote]Facts are aproximately like this : During the period that Transnistria was under Romanian authority (with Gh. Alexianu as governor), there were no mass killings or massacres.[/quote] (emphasize by Dragos) You can't play with aproximations here. Either there were, or there were not mass killings ! If you make a statement on such delicate matter, you must elaborate. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 13, 2004 10:29 pm |
| (sorry changed my mind see next post) |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 13, 2004 10:30 pm |
| [quote]Chandernagore, there is no need to be so aggressive. It is not only about recognition, because the state of Israel asks for monetary compensation.[/quote]
Oh but who is being agressive? Me or the one who has the gale to flatly state that whole races are only interested in money ? For God's sake ! What happened with the properties of Jewish people throughout Europe (if we have become cynic enough to forget about their lives). Is it that much to ask for rightfull retribution (I hate "compensation", it's well beyond that) ? And we're talking about a state which still fights damn hard for mere survival. They have some excuses too for looking after anything helping. And no, while at it, you should not identify Sharon or the current Israeli government with the Israel people. Oh well, I do appreciate what moderating influence you have on people like Getu. I should be less emotional about this. But it's always the same old poison rising up again and again and again. I'm not the one who keeps bringing all issues back to the Jews. I'm just disgusted at the whole process. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 13, 2004 11:12 pm |
| dragos wrote :
[quote]Since you are not sure I assume you have no documents or reports whatsoever. The testimonies of eye witnesses shows that systematic executions took place. Then why make hazardous statements ? [/quote] Dragos, please tell me what is the value of an eye witness, today, considering the philosophy of modern war? As I said before, you cannot hide thousands of corpses, and Allied propaganda should have been the first to talk about that stuff. If you want to be convincing, at a trial or anywhere, you must bring pictures, diaries writen by people who were conscient and there and even films if necessary. Unfortunately, the biggest majority of those so-called reports were made after the war during 1946-1950, in the very well known conditions of detention. Relu pointed out about strange pics of the "Death trains"... I actually have those pics in a book of Stoenescu, but unfortunately I cannot post them on the forum, because I do not have right now a directory. [quote]We don't discuss philosophy but war crimes.[/quote] What I pointed out, and you should admit it, is that war is by herself a crime. It's not any philosophy, it is the crude reality. [quote]About the Soviet trials, I dare to generalize. The result of such trials was not decided by proofs, but of what was dictated from top. [/quote] :roll: What can I say more? Stalin had a love for Alexianu. And in this case, prove us that Nuremberg was not dictated from top. [quote]You can't play with aproximations here. Either there were, or there were not mass killings ! If you make a statement on such delicate matter, you must elaborate.[/quote] No mass killings occured in Transnistria! If you want, I can post extracts from the report of the International Red Cross. When saying 'aproximately', I was only referring that not everybody liked foreign occupation. There were of course russophones that preferred Russia. Regards, Getu' |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 13, 2004 11:44 pm |
| Chandy :
[quote]What happened with the properties of Jewish people throughout Europe (if we have become cynic enough to forget about their lives). Is it that much to ask for rightfull retribution (I hate "compensation", it's well beyond that) ? [/quote] Hey, Chandy! I'm wayting to see the day when Israel (or any other country) will errect a monument in the memory of all those hundreds of thousands of Romanians who perished during WW2. As I pointed out in other posts, many local Jews were behind horrible murders against the Romanian population in the territories taken by USSR (Bessarabia and N. Bucovina). Only between July 1940 and June 1941, some 200.000 Romanians were deported and murdered by Soviet authorities, who brought Jews and Russophones to replace the missing locals. [quote]And we're talking about a state which still fights damn hard for mere survival. They have some excuses too for looking after anything helping. And no, while at it, you should not identify Sharon or the current Israeli government with the Israel people. [/quote] Talking about a cynical behavior! Some 45% of Romania's population is living under the line of poverty. But Israel equipped with the A bomb needs money to survive! The Middle-East lung needs air! And what's Sharon having to do with the topic? Wasn't Sharon democratically elected by the Israeli people? Anyway... I urge Dragos to be more on the point next time in this question! Because if I would have said about Jews what Chandy or his friends said or insinuated about Romanians till know, I would have been permanently banned! :roll: Getu' |
| Posted by: aerialls February 14, 2004 02:35 am |
| it will be very interesting to see... if someone should translate that eyewiness acount in english... who was in charge. and with all those photo reporters stuff... it seams after me... that those "soldiers" were used as "tools".
And see how the things were really going on outhere... russian cooperation in the "thing" and stuff. I'm too lazy to do it... |
| Posted by: Dénes February 14, 2004 03:41 am |
| Excerpt from 'Odessa, 1941-1944. A Case Study of Soviet Territory under Foreign Rule', by Alexander Dallin, The Center For Romanian Studies, Iasi, 1998, p.74:
[quote]A factual Abwehr [German intelligence] report: "on the morning of the 23rd [October, 1941], the day after the explosion [i.e., when the Rumanian Army HQ was blown up], about 19,000 Jews were shot on a square in the port, surrounded by a wooden fence. Their corpses were sprinkled with gasoline and burned". Thousands more were allegedly taken to Dal'nik and there massacred in anti-tank trenches."[/quote] [Notes in brackets mine, D.B.] Further on, it's mentioned that in Odessa the terror declined after the first months of occupation. There is an entire chapter devoted to the topic, so anyone interested in further details should check it out. The book should be available in Rumanian libraries. |
| Posted by: aerialls February 14, 2004 04:16 am |
| Denes.. don't know about that book...sorry for it... but should we talked now about those 500.000 hungarian jews... or... x God knows bulgarian jews or... on the teritory of today Romania the figure is x000. Many of those deported in the east returned to the country afterwards. Ana Pauker was jewish. Many of them departed to Israel or to Us.
Should we talked about other "hot" topics that makes us hurt? Frankly... I believe that this thread should be deleted... but it is all in the hands of the moderators. Wateva... i'm immune to all of it. |
| Posted by: dragos February 14, 2004 07:00 am |
| It would be better to wait for the reports of the commission authorized to examine the Romanian archives in this problem, and refrain from making flaming statements.
[quote]Relu pointed out about strange pics of the "Death trains"... I actually have those pics in a book of Stoenescu, but unfortunately I cannot post them on the forum, because I do not have right now a directory.[/quote] You can email some scans to me and I will try to post them. [quote]No mass killings occured in Transnistria! If you want, I can post extracts from the report of the International Red Cross.[/quote] Yes, please. Did the International Red Cross make thorough investigation, like searching for mass-graves ? |
| Posted by: ioni February 14, 2004 11:46 am |
| I do not claim to be a specialist in the field, but I read several books and articles on this matter, including Matatias Carp's 1945 "Transnistria" books, 1940-41 Iasi Centre Books about Transnistria, and several Jewish survivors books.
Until any surviving archives are open and studied, all these books must be taken with a pinch of salt, because they were influenced by the political factors in case of the Romanian books and by the subjective and revengefull feelings in case of the Jewish books. The origins of the indigenous population in the north of Black Sea are not very clear. This is mainly due, to the Ukraine complete disinterest in archeological discoveries in this area (they must be knowing something!). It seems that large areas were populated with dacian-tracian populations, the eastern tribes that reached beyond the Dnieper's Delta. There is some archeological and historical proof about a Kingdom of Bolohovens (Tara Bolohovenilor -> Volohi -> Valahi) in the middle of today's Ukraine. They constantly fought the russians, even allying with the tartars. They were completely wipped out by the rusians in the 15-16 th centuries. When the russians arrived in the territory between Dniester and Bug, there was already a strong moldavian (romanian) presence. The moldavians were the stable population, cultivating the land while the tartars where the migratory one, leaving in a kind of symbiosys. Tartars obtained food and offered protection. On most maps, the south (The Bugeac) appears as deserted and belonging to the Tartars from Crimeea, very false indeed. This territory was largely owned by Moldavian boyars and most of the dwellings were inhabited by Romanians, from Movilau (town created on the lands of Ieremia Movila, Moldavian King - later Moghilev) in North West to Vozia (today Oceacov) in South East, and from Bratlav (town created by the Poles but with a majority of moldavian traders and peasants) in North East to Stanesti (the village Odessa was built on) in South West, with the Romanian town of Balta in the centre (still exists with the same name). The russians took these lands, including Bessarabia, after victories against the turks. However, the agreement the Moldavians had with the turks was that in exchange of taxes Moldavians pay, the turks will defend and protect the territory and they HAD NO RIGHT TO OWN THE LAND OR TO GIVE IT AWAY. It is understandable the surprise of the austrians and russians in 1775 (and before) when the turks told them, that, despite their victory, they cannot give them anything because they DO NOT OWN ANY LANDS IN MOLDAVIA AND BESSARABIA. This is the mistake made by all western historians!!! It seems they all suffer some kind of collective halucination, when they speak about the "normal" transfer of lands from deafeated turks to their victors. However, in the end the turks signed the treaties that had no juridical value. Since then at least three massive waves of colonists were sent to these lands!!!! Jews started to arrive in in Bessarabia and Bucovina in large numbers after the progroms in Russia around the 17th century. They formed tightly knit and exclusivist communities, taking over financial life of many towns and villages mainly because, as foreigners, they could not owe land (the only physical commodity in Romania at that time). However, the Romanian population, largely uneducated and, sometimes, not very tolerant disagreed (to put it mildly) with these exclusivistic communities. In my opinion, all these feelings accumulated over the years and they were used later by the fascists movements like the Iron Guard (which started as a peasant and religious movement). Up to then, the feelings were kept wrapped under the blanket by the monarchy (society), with no major disturbances talking place. There are several aspects from WW2 that I could extract from what I read: - russians had a fifth column in Bessarabia, and lots of this members were jews, who attacked retreating troops causing some damage. - when the russians entered Bessarabia, about 10% of the jewish population retreated in Romania (exactly the reacher members) - the fifth column helped the russians to identify and deport important members of the Romanian population - but, there are cases of Jewish soldiers in the Romanian army that protected their colleagues. - when the Romanians came back, at the orders of Antonescu, they treated all Jewish population the same. They did not try that much to find these 5th column members (most of whom retreated with the russians) but punished all Jewish population all together. - in the first period, combatant troops did take place in small scale masacres, rapes, etc. These were NOT COORDINATed actions, taken by small groups and individuals from the army. Most went unpunished. - later most jewish population was marched to Transnistria, lots dying on the road and later in the camps - most of the later actions are those of the Terittorial Army (Jandarmii). The camps were run by TA Officers, some of them very sadistic. - lots of people took advantage of the Jews in the camps, including local Ukrainian peasants, members of the German settlements, SS units, etc. There are several Romanian reports of German colonists or soldiers entering the Romanian run camps and talking away Jews to kill. - I think, as in case of Germany, one needs to make a clear distinction between combatant troops and TA troops (like the difference made between The Wehrmacht and SS). - there are several cases when retreating combatant Romanian troops were given, by the Germans, groups of Jews to kill, and they release them to the russians. And, at the end, I am attaching the map from Carp's book showing the deportation routes and the camps.  |
| Posted by: dragos February 14, 2004 07:13 pm |
| The following photographs have been provided by Geto-Dacul.
I post them as links because they contain atrocities. http://www.worldwar2.ro/images/forum/Trenurile-mortii1.jpg http://www.worldwar2.ro/images/forum/Trenurile-mortii2.jpg http://www.worldwar2.ro/images/forum/Iasi-1941.jpg |
| Posted by: Victor February 14, 2004 08:19 pm |
| [quote] At the time of Miron Costin, those lands were controlled by the Romanian principality of Moldavia... [/quote]
Do you have any actual proof to back this up? As far as I know it was under the control of the Kingdom of Poland (the northern part) and of the Ottoman Empire (the southern part). [quote] Facts are aproximately like this : During the period that Transnistria was under Romanian authority (with Gh. Alexianu as governor), there were no mass killings or massacres. [/quote] There were no mass murders, but many of those deported died there. How can this be? Care to give a logical explanation? Btw, even Alexianu admitted during the trial that there executions at Golta, but he said that he knew the Germans were responsible for them. [quote] So you cannot hide hundreds and thousands of cadavers... But hundreds of thousands??? Or are they invisible? Oh, no! I found a better one! Romanian authorities built giant dismantable crematoriums, and the ashes were thrown in the Black Sea! [/quote] I personally find this kind of humor of bad taste. As a matter of fact, the cadavers were burned. Here is a testimony of a survivor, Haim Cogan: At the beginning of December 1941, we were taken from Vazhdovka and sent to Zakhariovka [east of Ribnitza], where we were kept in a stable in a field near the village. There we were several thousand Jews from Chisinau. We stayed there for 8 days. In open field without food. Every day many died and were thrown on the field, as it was very cold. On 8 December, in the evening, we were sent towards Bogdanova. The Ukrainian guards, working for the prefecture, shot everyone who remained behind the column. I was part of a team, which during the first days had the task to gather the dead, who had been shot on the way. After a few days we worked on a large grave, where there were several thousand bodies. Then we carried the bodies from a grave with about 400-500 bodies. It was very cold and it was impossible to dig them out. We had to cut them to pieces and transport them like this to the pits where the bodies were being burned. It took about two months to turn our brothers into ashes. [quote] Anyway... I urge Dragos to be more on the point next time in this question! Because if I would have said about Jews what Chandy or his friends said or insinuated about Romanians till know, I would have been permanently banned! [/quote] I have not seen anything yet about Romanians in general, but more of a discussion with you personally. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 14, 2004 09:34 pm |
| Victor wrote :
[quote]Do you have any actual proof to back this up? As far as I know it was under the control of the Kingdom of Poland (the northern part) and of the Ottoman Empire (the southern part).[/quote] Miron Costin was a chronicler. During the reign of Duca Voda (1673-1678), those regions were under Moldavian control. 
[quote]Btw, even Alexianu admitted during the trial that there executions at Golta, but he said that he knew the Germans were responsible for them.[/quote] Also, when did the Golta executions occured? If the Germans were responsible for them, it's another story. Who was executed at Golta, how much and why? I suppose it happened when the front was still in Transnistria. Do not forget that during a period, Transnistria was under Romanian military administration (General Potopeanu). [quote]I personally find this kind of humor of bad taste. As a matter of fact, the cadavers were burned. Here is a testimony of a survivor, Haim Cogan: At the beginning of December 1941, we were taken from Vazhdovka and sent to Zakhariovka [east of Ribnitza], where we were kept in a stable in a field near the village. There we were several thousand Jews from Chisinau. We stayed there for 8 days. In open field without food. Every day many died and were thrown on the field, as it was very cold. On 8 December, in the evening, we were sent towards Bogdanova. The Ukrainian guards, working for the prefecture, shot everyone who remained behind the column. I was part of a team, which during the first days had the task to gather the dead, who had been shot on the way. After a few days we worked on a large grave, where there were several thousand bodies. Then we carried the bodies from a grave with about 400-500 bodies. It was very cold and it was impossible to dig them out. We had to cut them to pieces and transport them like this to the pits where the bodies were being burned. It took about two months to turn our brothers into ashes. [/quote] Care to give us a source, for this? If 400-500 bodies were burned, that does not mean that they were all burned! So there were burning pits (?) in Bogdanova? |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 15, 2004 02:26 pm |
| [quote]
Hey, Chandy! I'm wayting to see the day when Israel (or any other country) will errect a monument in the memory of all those hundreds of thousands of Romanians who perished during WW2.[/quote] Ask the Russians. [quote]As I pointed out in other posts, many local Jews were behind horrible murders against the Romanian population in the territories taken by USSR (Bessarabia and N. Bucovina).[/quote] "Many". Thanks for the precision. And only the Jews of course. By the way I remind you have still been unable to answer the question that I asked : "why ?" Doesn't seem to bother you as long as you have your culprit. [quote]Only between July 1940 and June 1941, some 200.000 Romanians were deported and murdered by Soviet authorities, who brought Jews [/quote] Again... "imported" Jews ? How many hundreds of billions of them live on earth ? The Soviet Union seem to have had a bottomless reserve especially brewd, trained and dedicated to overun the neigbouring region in order to create the Great Jewish Protectorate of Soviet Bessarabia.. Of course, from your tribal nationalistic point of vue, I understand that you badly need the Jews as scapegoats. And that's the whole point of antisemitism isn't it, scapegoats for everything that turned wrong ? [quote]But Israel equipped with the A bomb needs money to survive! [/quote] The 3 or 4 major wars in Israel history were conventional. Their daily security depends on conventional forces. Israel would be hard pressed to stay afloat without financial help from abroad. But US support generally is considered sufficient and they don't need much else.[/quote] |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 15, 2004 05:10 pm |
| Chandernagore wrote :
[quote]Ask the Russians.[/quote] Ask the Russians, yes! Ask all the co-belligerants of that war! They all threw bombs on Romanian soil! [quote]"Many". Thanks for the precision. And only the Jews of course. By the way I remind you have still been unable to answer the question that I asked : "why ?" Doesn't seem to bother you as long as you have your culprit. [/quote] As I said before, and as other posters pointed out : Appart from the more richer Jews of Bessarabia (~10%), the rest of them were part of the Soviet intelligentsia or at least sympathizers. Otherwise their love for the Soviets cannot be explained. Note that Bessarabian Jews were first brought by tsarist authorities back in the 19th century, to dilute the ethnic composition of the territory, which was in favour of the Romanians (88% in 1818). And BTW, not only Jews behaved badly during the retreat, but also parts of the Bulgarian minority in Southern Bessarabia, who "allied" themselves with the Jews. But there where more isolated cases. [quote]Again... "imported" Jews ? How many hundreds of billions of them live on earth ? The Soviet Union seem to have had a bottomless reserve especially brewd, trained and dedicated to overun the neigbouring region in order to create the Great Jewish Protectorate of Soviet Bessarabia .. Of course, from your tribal nationalistic point of vue, I understand that you badly need the Jews as scapegoats. And that's the whole point of antisemitism isn't it, scapegoats for everything that turned wrong ?[/quote] The Jews of Bessarabia are not the scapegoats... But most of them were not innocent too! What annoys me very much is that someone says that "some Germans murdered..." you'll take it as normal and not comment it. Instead, if someone says that "some Jews were responsible of murders", you'll jump at the throat and accuse of antisemitism. Like the Jews are all puritans. [quote]But US support generally is considered sufficient and they don't need much else.[/quote] Oh... And please tell me why they want compensations? G. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 15, 2004 05:24 pm |
| Dénes wrote :
[quote]quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A factual Abwehr [German intelligence] report: "on the morning of the 23rd [October, 1941], the day after the explosion [i.e., when the Rumanian Army HQ was blown up], about 19,000 Jews were shot on a square in the port, surrounded by a wooden fence. Their corpses were sprinkled with gasoline and burned". Thousands more were allegedly taken to Dal'nik and there massacred in anti-tank trenches." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Notes in brackets mine, D.B.] Further on, it's mentioned that in Odessa the terror declined after the first months of occupation. There is an entire chapter devoted to the topic, so anyone interested in further details should check it out. The book should be available in Rumanian libraries.[/quote] Huh, Dénes! Let's use our logic! Ever imagined how looked the "square in the port" of Odessa on October 23, 1941 after the capture of the city??? It was a total mess! Destroyed trucks, broken tractors, smashed field guns and a lot of abandonned material that was repaired later and used by the Romanian Army. You couldn't even execute 100 people in that mess... I'll post some scans. So I strongly doubt that Abwehr report as being authentic! Regards, Getu' |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 15, 2004 07:16 pm |
| [quote] Ask the RussiansAsk the Russians, yes! Ask all the co-belligerants of that war! They all threw bombs on Romanian soil!.[/quote]
It's intriguing how lenient you are with your dear Russian commie friends (who stole Bessarabia from you, let's not forget) while you seem surprised that the evil Western world did hold you accountable for allying with and selling oil to the nazis in a world war. Maybe the US should apologize for taking out Ploesti ? I heard there were even some Canadian pilots on those flights. The horror... |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 15, 2004 07:18 pm |
| [quote]Note that Bessarabian Jews were first brought by tsarist authorities back in the 19th century, to dilute the ethnic composition of the territory, which was in favour of the Romanians (88% in 1818). [/quote]
Ah. I wonder why they did not bring in Tsarist Russians. |
| Posted by: Victor February 15, 2004 07:39 pm |
| [quote] Miron Costin was a chronicler. During the reign of Duca Voda (1673-1678), those regions were under Moldavian control [/quote]
I know who Miron Costin was. I was interested in something of the kind of IO, X Mare Voevod si Domn peste... I am curious how the Moldavian princes named the territory between the Bug and the Dniester. [quote] Care to give us a source, for this? If 400-500 bodies were burned, that does not mean that they were all burned! So there were burning pits (?) in Bogdanova? [/quote] The testimony was published in the book Transnistria by Jean Ancel. [quote] when did the Golta executions occured? If the Germans were responsible for them, it's another story. Who was executed at Golta, how much and why? I suppose it happened when the front was still in Transnistria. Do not forget that during a period, Transnistria was under Romanian military administration (General Potopeanu). [/quote] I gave you that example, not to imply that Alexianu was involved himself in the killings, but I thought you would believe what he said and thus admit that massacres did take place. I do not know the exact date, but it was sometime in late 1941, when the deportations started. Those killed there (the number of 70,000 mentioned by the prosecutors during the trial is questionable, due to the nature of the trial) were being deported from Bessarabia. Apparently there were German troops there and they were executed after they passed into Trans-Dnestra. At least this is what Col. M. Isopescu, the prefect, reported. It is not known exactly if Romanian gendarmes (Isopescu's men) took part in the massacres or if they tried to prevent it. Isopescu was later also on trial for war crimes, IIRC. As a result, Alexianu declared that he ordered that the columns with those deported be stopped from crossing the Dniester, until the Germans could be contacted. [quote] I'm wayting to see the day when Israel (or any other country) will errect a monument in the memory of all those hundreds of thousands of Romanians who perished during WW2. [/quote] The European Christian-Democrats will soon propose a bill in the European Parliament, that will condemn Communism as as criminal as National-Socialism. |
| Posted by: Victor February 15, 2004 07:41 pm |
| Note:
The "Territorial Army" in ioni's post is none other than the Gendarmerie. It had no connection with the territorial corps. |
| Posted by: dragos February 15, 2004 07:52 pm |
| [quote]It's intriguing how lenient you are with your dear Russian commie friends (who stole Bessarabia from you, let's not forget)while you seem surprised that the evil Western world did hold you accountable for allying with and selling oil to the nazis in a world war. Maybe the US should apologize for taking out Ploesti ? I heard there were even some Canadian pilots on those flights. The horror...[/quote]
Yes, you are right saying that the Russian stole Bessarabia. And Romania sold oil for Germany in order to preserve itself as a country while the Soviets were trying to annihilate us. US bombed us because we were fighting against Soviet Union. As a bottom line, here is an excerpt from the book I am publishing in the forum "Romania in World War II": "Finally, it must be mentioned that the Second World War, although it made something really good to humanity through the annihilation of fascism, created the prerequisites for the extension, in Europe and Asia, of an ill-fated totalitarism - the communism. That's why the 9th of May 1945, the Victory Day, as it is celebrated nowadays, must be evaluated in the light of this double aspect, of victory and defeat of liberty and democracy". |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 15, 2004 08:21 pm |
| What is pityfull is how the Western allies were completely outmaneuvered politically by Stalin after the end of the war. Not even the Poles could be saved from Communist domination. What a fiasco when you consider that they had the atomic bomb to talk at the table :-(
I can only imagine what Stalin would have asked for if he had the bomb... |
| Posted by: dragos February 15, 2004 08:30 pm |
| Moreover, Chandernagore, before regarding Romania as an aggresive state, read this:
"In the light of post-war decades, the victory on the 9th of May 1945 over Hilter's Germay seems to be less bright. All people now recognize thar fascism was one of the most abominable ideologies within humanity's history. The contempt to the individual and the "inferior races" generated a monstruous system of extermination of those considered to be enemies or "not able" to integrate themselves to the new order imposed by Hitler. The system of labour camps, the "death factories" which worked inside them, the Holocaust, which made millions of innocents victims showed the deep ill-fated character of fascism, especially its Nazi variant. The fight against Nazi Germany mobilised hundreds of milions people from free or occupied countries or controlled by Wehrmacht. Within the sphere of hegemony of the Third Reich, the resistance movement knew unprecedented proportions by that time within the effort of liberation from under foreign occupant. A negative corpse inside the world organism - the fascism - provoked a repulsive reaction which had the character of a unprecedent coalition in history. Unfortunately, thi coalition was too late constituted in order to hinder the break out of the war by Hitler's Germany. In the historiography of the big conflict of 1939-1945, the Swedish researcher Walther Hoffer insisted to focus the attention to the correct deffintions used for the beginning of the Second World War. that is to be - in his opinion - "break out", but "unleashment", in order to underline the deliberate character of great conflagration's origin: Hitler wanted, prepared and unleashed the war. By that time, however before the Poland's aggression (1.09.1939) Hitler commited several violations of the Treaty of Versailles and of the European status-quo, without being punished with the deserved sanctions: the introduction of compulsory military service (16.03.1935), the remilitarization of Rhenania (7.03.1936), the annexion of Austria (12.03.1938). Those powers designed to guarantee the Verailles Treaty, France and Great Britain, not only didn't react to the defence of international legality, but engaged themselves (especially Great Britain) into a diplomacy of appeasement as related to Germany, which started with the German-British Naval Agreement (29.09.1938). The Anglo-French "appeasement" encouraged aggressive Reich's politics and led in the end to the failure of attempts of creating some viable strucutres of collective security in Europe. In the same period, the Soviet Union's politics proved duplicity: on one hand, it declared that want to take part in the settlemet of a collective security system, on the other, it tried to establish an agreement with the Nazi Germany and prepared the Red Army for a future great war..." (Romania in World War II 1941-1945, Institute for Operative-Strategic Studies and Military Histroy, Bucharest, 1997) "Ignorance and propaganda formed most ideas of the nature of the conflict. But as the number of belligerents increased from 1941 onwards, a broad view emerged among the nations fighting the Nazi Germany or Japan that these two countries represented a unique political evil. Conversely, largely as a result of the eloquence of Churchill and Roosevelt, the Allied cause was increasingly seen as a democratic crusade, and a greater tyranny like Stalin's Russia was able to assume a mantle to which it had no possible claim." The Macmillan Dictionary of the Second World War, London, 1997 In this perspective, the US should appologize to Romania for their actions. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore February 15, 2004 09:29 pm |
| [quote]Moreover, Chandernagore, before regarding Romania as an aggresive state,...[/quote]
Well, you say this, not me. [quote]In this perspective, the US should appologize to Romania for their actions[/quote] I don't see why. Quite the contrary. |
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