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Posted by: Dénes October 10, 2012 06:02 am

I clicked on the ad under the threads and fund and interesting site:
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/

I clicked on the year 800 and found out that great parts of the current territory of Rumania back then was called... Bulgaria:
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/800/index.html
How much this map reflects the point of view of the current Rumanian historiography?

Also, there was no one in Transylvania?

What is your opinion?

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Ferdinand October 10, 2012 07:03 am

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 06:02 am)

I clicked on the year 800 and found out that great parts of the current territory of Rumania back then was called... Bulgaria:

It confirms Hungary,UDMR and other magyar extremists oppinions. There was nobody is Transylvania!

Posted by: Dénes October 10, 2012 10:33 am

QUOTE (seeker @ October 10, 2012 01:03 pm)

It confirms Hungary,UDMR and other magyar extremists oppinions. There was nobody is Transylvania!

Are you somehow equating Hungary and UDMR with extremism?
It's not the first time you are stirring here confrontation along ethnic lines.
I suggest you to refrain from any nationalist outbursts and stick to the topic.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Ferdinand October 10, 2012 02:52 pm

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 10:33 am)

QUOTE (seeker @ October 10, 2012 01:03 pm)

It confirms Hungary,UDMR and other magyar extremists oppinions. There was nobody is Transylvania!

Aren't they sustaining the same ideea? Authonomy?
I also suggest that you change your attitude! I noticed that you like to envolve in discussions that dissconsider Romania and everything regarding Ro Army,politics...everything.
Since when is wrong to be nationalist? Or you consider romanian nationalism equal to nazism?

Posted by: Mihai Popteanu October 10, 2012 03:03 pm

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 06:02 am)

http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%9Aaratul_Vlaho-Bulgar

This is the explanation in my opinion.

Posted by: Imperialist October 10, 2012 03:36 pm

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 06:02 am)

I clicked on the year 800 and found out that great parts of the current territory of Rumania back then was called... Bulgaria:
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/800/index.html
How much this map reflects the point of view of the current Rumanian historiography?

Also, there was no one in Transylvania?

What is your opinion?

Gen. Dénes

I don't think those maps are very accurate.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd_1911/shepherd-c-057.jpg

Posted by: Victor October 11, 2012 08:23 am

QUOTE (seeker @ October 10, 2012 04:52 pm)

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 10:33 am)

QUOTE (seeker @ October 10, 2012 01:03 pm)

It confirms Hungary,UDMR and other magyar extremists oppinions. There was nobody is Transylvania!

seeker,

if you have something to add related to the topic, please do so. If you don't, then refrain from steering it into a pointless flame war on current political subjects.

Thank you.

Posted by: Ferdinand October 12, 2012 08:17 am

QUOTE (Victor @ October 11, 2012 08:23 am)

QUOTE (seeker @ October 10, 2012 04:52 pm)

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 10:33 am)

QUOTE (seeker @ October 10, 2012 01:03 pm)

It confirms Hungary,UDMR and other magyar extremists oppinions. There was nobody is Transylvania!

seeker,

if you have something to add related to the topic, please do so. If you don't, then refrain from steering it into a pointless flame war on current political subjects.

Thank you.

Yes Victor, but i am sick of Denes comments that show lack of respect for our country.
I just don't like his attitude and if other members shut up, i won't!

Posted by: Radub October 12, 2012 08:51 am

Denes has done more for Romania than many so-called "pure-blood" loudmouth Romanians. I have many of Denes' books about Aeronautica Regala Romana and I cannot find any "lack of respect for Romania" in them.
Telling the unpleasant truth about Romania is not lack of patriotism. Some Romanians must accept that the history of Romania is tightly interwoven with the history of Hungary. Like or hate it, it is the truth.
Let us keep it friendly. No one has anything to gain from such rows.
That map is very interesting. Whatever one may think about the "Romanian" bit, a lot of the other countries are extremely well-represented.
Radu

Posted by: Dénes October 12, 2012 09:36 am

QUOTE (seeker @ October 12, 2012 02:17 pm)

Yes Victor, but i am sick of Denes comments that show lack of respect for our country.
I just don't like his attitude and if other members shut up, i won't!

Seeker, if you're sick of me and my posts, why don't you leave the forum and take your nationalist views somewhere else? No one else seem to be sick of my posts, but you. Simple and efficient cure.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes October 12, 2012 09:39 am

QUOTE (Radub @ October 12, 2012 02:51 pm)

That map is very interesting. Whatever one may think about the "Romanian" bit, a lot of the other countries are extremely well-represented.
Radu

As mentioned, I found this series of maps by accident, being advertised on the bottom of this forum. I simply wanted to ask other members' opinion about it, from a purely historical approach.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist October 12, 2012 06:48 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ October 12, 2012 08:51 am)

Telling the unpleasant truth about Romania is not lack of patriotism.

Pray tell what unpleasant truth does this thread/inaccurate map tells about Romania?

Posted by: Ferdinand October 12, 2012 08:46 pm

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 12, 2012 09:36 am)

....and the "victim" becomes agressor

)

I don't care if others don't tell you anything. There were discussions about hungarian massacres in Transylvania you were alone against other members, and still you are on this forum. I'll follow you're example!
Still you haven't explained me why is being nationalist is wrong? I really hope that you are not "equating" romanian nationalism with axis nationalism.

Also please stop editing your posts!!! Let it like it came out...be onest!

)

Posted by: Radub October 13, 2012 07:56 am

QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 12, 2012 06:48 pm)

QUOTE (Radub @ October 12, 2012 08:51 am)

Telling the unpleasant truth about Romania is not lack of patriotism.

Pray tell what unpleasant truth does this thread/inaccurate map tells about Romania?

You are the one pushing the "inaccurate" argument, not I. I have nothing to "tell". I am strictly referring to the fact that a discussion about maps veered into a discussion about the strained relationship between Hungary and Romania. My point was that, like or hate it, the two countries have a shared history, in which each did some stuff likely to irritate the other. So, let us discuss the maps not attack each other. And this is your cue to explain and correct the maps.
Radu

Posted by: ionionescu October 13, 2012 10:29 am

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 07:02 am)

My opinion is that the map doesn't reflect the point of view of the current ROmanian historiography, the map is as accurate as, lets say, Wikipedia can be.

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 07:02 am)

Also, there was no one in Transylvania?

What is your opinion?

My opinion is that the above statement is an old hungarian joke, and jokes are meant to be funny and we should laugh a lot, in consequence:

Posted by: adicontakt October 13, 2012 04:37 pm

@ionionescu you are right
denes is an nationalist but not a romanian one , a hungarian one

offensive remarks deleted by admin

Posted by: Ferdinand October 13, 2012 05:48 pm

QUOTE (adicontakt @ October 13, 2012 04:37 pm)

offensive remarks deleted by admin

Adi, keep it diplomatic!

Posted by: Florin October 13, 2012 06:44 pm

Mistakes in these kind of maps are all the time. Maybe because of their number I am less upset when I see one.
The Bulgarian state of those days was more into the south overall - that implies that the European territory controlled by the Byzantine / Roman Empire was smaller and the border was closer to Constantinople. Also that state was at south of Danube because there were no many reasons to live above it. The deciduous forest is the natural environment of all Europe - like a "default" due to European climate. Europe tends to be forest all over, unless disturbed by humans.
In the years 800 what would become later Wallachia and Moldavia was mostly forest, and the only target worth plundering and attacking was the Byzantine / Roman Empire in the south.
Needless to add, the Bulgarians were a kind of pest for that empire until a Byzantine Emperor took about 13,000 Bulgarians as prisoners and blinded them all, excepting 50 that were left with one eye and these 50 were asked to herd the rest back to Bulgaria.
* * *
That map is wrong for another reason. It was designed as a map focused on states, not on nations. And from this point of view it would make sense that the pre-Russians were not shown, that for Transylvania you can't see anything and in Italy full with people and many vibrant cities you see just "Francia".
But the authors of the map are not consistent in following this idea, and also show nations in the places they had at that moment: "Magyars", "Polans" etc. Once they started to also show nations, they should be consistent into this: show pre-Romanians (or pre-Wallachians), pre-Russians (Russia was not empty, right?) and Italians (a kind of archaic Italian was already language in Italy - shown as "Francia").
My point is further confirmed when you see that the only Germans on that map are the "Danes" (maybe also the "Obotrites" - honestly, I don't know "what's that".)
Best regards,
Florin

Posted by: Imperialist October 13, 2012 07:22 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ October 13, 2012 07:56 am)

My question was what did you mean when you said "Telling the unpleasant truth about Romania is not lack of patriotism." Did it have something to do with the discussion about the map or was it a general point you wanted to make? Do you think the map is telling an unpleasant truth?

As for the cue... I did post a link to a map earlier in the thread.

Posted by: dragos October 13, 2012 09:59 pm

adicontakt, this kind of primitive remarks has no place on this forum. Here should be a place to discuss history in a civilized manner. If you persist with this you will be banned permanently.

Posted by: Radub October 13, 2012 10:52 pm

QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 13, 2012 07:22 pm)

QUOTE (Radub @ October 13, 2012 07:56 am)

Imperialist,
Experience on this forum taught me that you can take one of my sentences, rip it out of context, and the misuse it to build an elaborate scaffolding of illogical and exaggerated inference that is impossible to discuss because it it is baseless. You want a row. I don't. Those questions have nothing to do with anything I said so I have no answers. I said all I had to say.
Radu

Posted by: Florin October 14, 2012 04:34 am

Continuing the idea from my previous post:
I made a fast Google check, to satisfy my curiosity - the "Obotrites" were Slavic tribes.
So in the map that generated all this topic only the "Danes" were mentioned from all Germanic nations. This does not help convincing the map's reader about the authors' professionalism.
* * *
Above the map you can read: "Sovereign States mode"
Really? A basic requirement for a political entity to be labeled "sovereign state" is to have a capital.
Considering that map: Where were the capitals of the following "states"
- Obotrites
- Polans
- Magyars
- Sorbs
- Nitrava ?

Posted by: Ferdinand October 14, 2012 07:32 am

QUOTE (Radub @ October 13, 2012 10:52 pm)

Experience on this forum taught me that you can take one of my sentences, rip it out of context, and the misuse it to build an elaborate scaffolding of illogical and exaggerated inference that is impossible to discuss because it it is baseless.

Interesting that what are you acusing others, you are doing. I said that Denes's comments show lack of respect and you answered that his books don't show lack of respect. And we all know that in a forum you can say a lot of things....but in a book no.

Also please point " the misuse it to build an elaborate scaffolding of illogical and exaggerated inference that is impossible to discuss because it it is baseless".

Posted by: Dénes October 14, 2012 07:39 am

QUOTE (dragos @ October 14, 2012 03:59 am)

adicontakt, this kind of primitive remarks has no place on this forum.

If you say so, then why are these primitive, xenofobic labels still on the forum?

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist October 14, 2012 08:03 am

QUOTE (Radub @ October 13, 2012 10:52 pm)

I didn't misuse anything to build "an elaborate scaffolding of illogical and exaggerated inference", I asked you what you meant by what you said.

I asked, thus giving you the opportunity to explain. I asked, precisely in order to avoid misinterpreting and misusing anything. Yet you are unable or unwilling to explain what you meant. No problem.

As for the row, strange you accuse me of wanting one. When all I did was post a link to a .edu website and asked you a simple question. I'd say the person who started this thread wanted a row.

Posted by: Radub October 14, 2012 08:41 am

Imperialist, I already replied. I am tired of splitting semantic hairs with you. What I said is clear and self-evident.
Radu

Posted by: Imperialist October 14, 2012 09:27 am

QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 08:41 am)

Imperialist, I already replied. I am tired of splitting semantic hairs with you. What I said is clear and self-evident.
Radu

There was nothing semantic about my question. I asked you whether what you stated refers to this thread and discussion about the map in particular or whether it was a general statement. In other words whether you think the map is accurate and tells a "painful truth" about Romania. Your answer was that you have no answer to give. You're right, it's clear and self-evident. Carry on.

Posted by: Radub October 14, 2012 09:45 am

I am not going to be drawn into your innuendo and inference. Read what you want in what I said.
Radu

Posted by: ANDREAS October 14, 2012 11:20 am

Back to the topic -more precisely at the maps in question- which does not surprise me at all, simply because I see that before: "Atlas der Weltgeschichte: Mit 1500 Karten und Abbildungen" by Jeremy Black (Dorling Kindersley Verlag, 2010). In this book with lots of maps I found a lot of interesting details that, after I have studied, proved accurate! But about Romania (territory inhabited by Romanians to be precise) I found a lot of inaccuracies and even gross errors (f.i. the religion nationalities in Transylvania around 1750 lacked the Orthodox one, which is known to have been majority even than, after union with Rome of some orthodox! or absence of all mention of a Christian population in the Romanian space before 1241 or... or... the exemples may be continued!). Say that does not surprise me (the maps) because I know from my own experience that "our version" of history is not known (and sometime accepted) but the hungarian-russian one (I say this because f.i. maps of Slavic (early Russian) kingdoms include northern Moldova as well) so...
The fact that we do not popularize our history acting individually or thru Romanian state is not UDMR or Hungarian fault, they only follow their interests how best they can... and they make that as a "permanent job" from 1867 onwards... why don't we learn nothing?

Posted by: Victor October 14, 2012 12:56 pm

QUOTE (seeker @ October 12, 2012 10:17 am)

Yes Victor, but i am sick of Denes comments that show lack of respect for our country.
I just don't like his attitude and if other members shut up, i won't!

Denes' post did not contain any disrespect for Romania. It was just a question regarding what the members' opinions were on a particular subject, which btw came up in the Google adds on the forum (the link is still there as I type this). There's no grand conspiracy behind this topic and your reaction is certainly out of proportion and unwelcomed. This is the last time it goes without sanction.

It's your own problem if you dislike Denes or anybody else on this forum. Don't make it the forum's problem by turning the discussions into flame wars.

Posted by: Imperialist October 14, 2012 04:26 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 09:45 am)

I am not going to be drawn into your innuendo and inference. Read what you want in what I said.
Radu

In your opinion, is the map Denes posted accurate or inaccurate?

Straightforward, on topic question. No innuendo.

Posted by: ANDREAS October 14, 2012 04:58 pm

In order to speak on the subject about the contested maps, I appreciate as for example erroneous the map of Europe from year 1100, more precisely the extent of Hungarian occupation of Transylvania! Based on several well-documented books (Romanian of course, so biased

) Hungarian domination was stretched in some southern areas (Brasov, Sibiu, Alba, Hunedoara f.i.) and northern (Maramures) around the years 1150-1200, and not before...

Posted by: MMM October 14, 2012 05:37 pm

QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 14, 2012 07:26 pm)

QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 09:45 am)

I am not going to be drawn into your innuendo and inference. Read what you want in what I said.
Radu

In your opinion, is the map Denes posted accurate or inaccurate?

Straightforward, on topic question. No innuendo.

Not as much "inaccurate" as "incomplete", I'd say; and, technically speaking, Denes just posted a link to a map, hence this almost-war topic!

Posted by: Ferdinand October 14, 2012 05:39 pm

QUOTE (Victor @ October 14, 2012 12:56 pm)

It's your own problem if you dislike Denes or anybody else on this forum.

Victor i said that i'm sick of his comments, i didn't met Denes so i can't say that i dislike him. He also knows that the things between magyars and romanians are sensitive and i think that he must take some care in future posting.
Just an example... a german goes to visit Jerusalem and he talks about his grandfather that he was a awarded hero of Waffen SS, while jewish people are present, is this ok?

Posted by: Ferdinand October 14, 2012 05:45 pm

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 06:02 am)

How much this map reflects the point of view of the current Rumanian historiography?

Also, there was no one in Transylvania?

What is your opinion?

Gen. Dénes

Look how he put the problem. What was his expectation...that all of us would said, YES THERE WAS NOBADY HERE!

There is an old saying:

"You do not speak of rope in the house of hanged man!"

Posted by: Radub October 14, 2012 06:35 pm

QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 14, 2012 04:26 pm)

QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 09:45 am)

I am not going to be drawn into your innuendo and inference. Read what you want in what I said.
Radu

In your opinion, is the map Denes posted accurate or inaccurate?

Straightforward, on topic question. No innuendo.

I have nothing to clarify. Read what you want.

The one who keeps going on about "inaccurate maps" is you. Now you keep baiting and trolling me into explaining WHAT YOU MEAN?

Leave me out of it.

Radu

Posted by: Florin October 14, 2012 07:51 pm

QUOTE (ANDREAS @ October 14, 2012 06:20 am)

......... But about Romania (territory inhabited by Romanians to be precise) I found a lot of inaccuracies and even gross errors ..............that does not surprise me (the maps) because I know from my own experience that "our version" of history is not known (and sometime accepted) but the hungarian-russian one (I say this because f.i. maps of Slavic (early Russian) kingdoms include northern Moldova as well) so...
The fact that we do not popularize our history acting individually or thru Romanian state is not UDMR or Hungarian fault, they only follow their interests how best they can... and they make that as a "permanent job" from 1867 onwards... why don't we learn nothing?

One problem is that since Mircea Eliade and few others like him died, in West there are not many people in well placed academic or prestigious positions of Romanian origin.
Usually the Romanians abroad succeed as engineers or physicians/doctors, and this does not help "the cause".
I think a bigger problem is that the Romanian government and the rich Romanians are not willing to pay publishing houses abroad to print our history (with photocopies of original documents or artifacts) in English.
I can give an example - in the 1980's, when all Eastern Europe was still Socialist, historians from Hungary published "History of Transylvania", and the Socialist Hungarian government paid for the English translation, publishing and distribution in West. They did not care that the government of the neighboring Socialist ally Romania will get upset about it.
* * *
When after that in Romania was published that book about the Hungarian occupation of Transylvania during 1940-1944, with a preliminary explanation of previous times (1867 and earlier), not only that it was not translated into English, but also the Romanian edition was not re-printed, in spite of the fact that people were struggling to get that book that literally "disappeared" before arriving into store shelves. Before 1989, you had to "know someone" to obtain it. I forgot who was "pila"/personal relation of my family that provided us that book.
* * *
Even though both countries were Socialist, in the late 1980's Hungary got into better and better terms with the West, while Romania did vice-versa. This did not help the matter discussed here.

Posted by: horia October 14, 2012 08:00 pm

Denes, if you wanted a professional opinion, you should have asked for an opinion from the Romanain historians, and therefore you should have addressed your inquiry towards the Romanian Academy or the Romanian Museu of History (by the way, for an official POV I highly recommend this book http://www.librariaatlas.ro/academia-romana-a-4854.html), although I suspect you already knew the answer you would have received from these institutons, you've study them even in Romania, and there is the same POV since Romanian history exists.

The book that I recommend is the fruit of labor of many professional historians. Unfortunately, you, not being a professional hstorian, you took the problem from a wrong POV, you took as refference some measly ideas, who do not represent POVs from nobody (not even from the Hungarian history even), posted on the net by ill-wished or stupid individuals. It is not the first time when you act in such manner, and let me believe you are not so naïve so that you would not presume the outcome of these discussions. The fact that you've opened a meaningless topic lead me to believe you have a different agenda. On the rest, all the collateral discussions have no meaning for me whatsoever.

Posted by: muggs October 14, 2012 08:04 pm

Guys please, do we have to have such a thread every month ? Instead of using this forum to have constructive discussions all i see is someone throwing fuel on the fire and others coming quickly to drop some more.

Posted by: Alexei2102 October 14, 2012 08:07 pm

What is the meaning of this useless topic ?

Posted by: ANDREAS October 14, 2012 08:17 pm

Florin, I agree with your arguments and join them, but I maintain my opinion that we do as individuals less to popularize our country history compared to Hungarians...

Posted by: Dénes October 14, 2012 08:45 pm

QUOTE (horia @ October 15, 2012 02:00 am)

It is not the first time when you act in such manner, and let me believe you are not so naïve so that you would not presume the outcome of these discussions. The fact that you've opened a meaningless topic lead me to believe you have a different agenda.

Horia, I am surprised by your post. I did not expect you to write in this manner, alluding that somehow I am the guilty one for all the extreme outburst that followed. Anyhow...

Tell me, which part of my previous post, explaining this thread is unclear to you?
""As mentioned, I found this series of maps by accident, being advertised on the bottom of this forum. I simply wanted to ask other members' opinion about it, from a purely historical approach.""

Also, would you care to explain your sentence: ""It is not the first time when you act in such manner..."

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist October 14, 2012 08:56 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 06:35 pm)

I simply asked you whether you think the map is accurate or inaccurate to avoid misreading an earlier statement you made, that's all.

Since you refuse to clarify what you meant earlier in the thread, my reading of what you said is that you think the map is accurate and it tells a "painful truth" about Romania and the messenger that delivered this "painful truth" (happened to be Denes in this case) should not be attacked by the others because exposing painful truths about your country is not lack of patriotism.

I'm not surprised you dodged my simple question. You generally make snide remarks about those that have a clearcut opinion about a certain issue yet when someone asks you for your clear opinion on an issue (yes/no, black/white, day/night, correct/incorrect) you usually dodge the questions because you want to avoid committing yourself to an opinion. You like to stay in the grey area, the muddy waters from which you can criticize other people's opinions without risking to have your own criticized.

Posted by: Florin October 14, 2012 09:53 pm

QUOTE (ANDREAS @ October 14, 2012 03:17 pm)

Florin, I agree with your arguments and join them, but I maintain my opinion that we do as individuals less to popularize our country history compared to Hungarians...

On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, south of The Great Lakes, people not only are not interested in the history of Europe, but they don't know their own history.
The Universe is revolving around Wrestling, Baseball, Football (not soccer), Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, Affirmative Action, Gay Pride, Facebook and Twitter.
You are suddenly a weird person when you know too much of anything.
* * *
What Romanians from abroad can do is to pay for translation and printing of various Romanian historical works.
But a very realistic situation will be for these books to stay years on shelves with no buyers, like many other books. The problem is not financial - once you had decided to pay for printing, you do not hope to get money there (consider it a donation). You cannot imagine how many good books stay on shelves while people have no interest in buying them.
So the only way to "spread the message" would be to offer these translations for free to libraries or private persons.

Posted by: Radub October 14, 2012 10:18 pm

QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 14, 2012 08:56 pm)

QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 06:35 pm)

Imperialist!
I urged you many times to leave me out of this. You are making stuff up and attributing it to me. Then you ask me to clarify this made-up stuff. And when I refuse to engage in this, you act as if I am doing somethig wrong.

You are taking things I said out of context. The context also included the words "let us keep this friendly" but I do not see you paying much attention to them.

I made no snide remarks about anyone's clear cut opinions. For most of this entire thread, ALL of my posts were asking you to leave me in peace. I am not interested ina row with you.

I never used the words "painful truths". You said that.

I do not know what "message" Denes "delivered". In as far as I can see, he "asked" a question about a map on a website run by someone else. But even so, why does it matter to you what I think about Denes's questions? He is a free man in a free world and he can do whatever he wants. I am not "the boss of Denes".

Radu

Posted by: Imperialist October 14, 2012 10:30 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 10:18 pm)

I don't understand why you're taking it personal or making such a big deal out of it. I asked you for your opinion on the map because a statement you made gave me the impression that you think the map is accurate. And I didn't ask it because I badly need your opinion on the map but because I didn't want to jump to conclusions. Had I said something without first knowing for sure what you meant then you would have said I'm putting words in your mouth and you never meant to say that and then there would have been a whole row about it.

So my attempt to avoid an argument with you ended up in an argument with you because for some reason you staunchly avoid answering straight questions. Or at least this question.

p.s. I didn't make stuff up, I quoted you. Yes, you didn't say "painful truth" you said "unpleasant truth".

no hard feelings, cheers

Posted by: Radub October 14, 2012 10:37 pm

You made it personal and you made it a big thing.
Radu

Posted by: horia October 15, 2012 07:01 am

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 14, 2012 08:45 pm)

QUOTE (horia @ October 15, 2012 02:00 am)

You asked:

How much this map reflects the point of view of the current Romanian historiography?

An I explained the POV of the Romanian historiography.

""It is not the first time when you act in such manner..." it is about the fact that is not the first time when you quote untrusted Internet sources or books written by enthusiast ins ted historians.

Posted by: adicontakt October 15, 2012 03:14 pm

denes why you didn"t find this map and start a topic
http://moldova.go.ro/imagini/harti/romare2.gif
?

Posted by: Florin October 15, 2012 04:02 pm

QUOTE (adicontakt @ October 15, 2012 10:14 am)

denes why you didn"t find this map and start a topic
http://moldova.go.ro/imagini/harti/romare2.gif
?

"adicontackt", this is not a good example because it represents the XXth century.
All this battle entrenched under this topic should get refrained under the 8th century shown by the original map.

Seeing all this street fight, I have to say that as usual no side is 100 percent angelic: some people here should refrain their wording and should be more careful in the way they express their point of view.
In the same I am myself convinced that Gen. Denes, as a very intelligent person that I am sure he is, anticipated this kind of anger at least up to a predictable point, before he decided to start this topic.

Posted by: Dénes October 15, 2012 05:38 pm

QUOTE (Florin @ October 15, 2012 10:02 pm)

I am myself convinced that Gen. Denes, as a very intelligent person I am sure he is, anticipated this kind of anger at least up to a predictable point, before he decided to start this topic.

I am sorry to say, Florin, I am not that intelligent, because honestly I did not anticipate at all the amount of extreme and nationalist slur this thread would generate.

As noted earlier, "I found this series of maps by accident, being advertised on the bottom of this forum. I simply wanted to ask other members' opinion about it, from a purely historical approach." That's all I intended to achieve, without any "hidden agenda". And I learned a good lesson, namely that's impossible to conduct a dialogue here due to a handful of people, a vociferous minority, as instead of the ball they decided to play the player, and this is a shame.

Florin, I have to highlight you as one of the very few people who actually tried to contribute with meaningful historical comments regarding the various maps found in the site featured by the Google ad, without engaging in a personal attack. This is commendable, and should act as a model to follow.

From my point of view, this thread can be locked, as it leaves to nowhere.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Florin October 15, 2012 07:14 pm

John Cena, a WWE superstar, has a very good message on his T-shirt: "Rise Above Hate."

Posted by: Imperialist October 15, 2012 07:37 pm

QUOTE (Dénes @ October 15, 2012 05:38 pm)

As noted earlier, "I found this series of maps by accident, being advertised on the bottom of this forum. I simply wanted to ask other members' opinion about it, from a purely historical approach." That's all I intended to achieve, without any "hidden agenda". And I learned a good lesson, namely that's impossible to conduct a dialogue here due to a handful of people, a vociferous minority, as instead of the ball they decided to play the player, and this is a shame.

I'm sure you knew that by posting a map that does not show the presence of Romance/Romanized people north of the Danube (like the map I posted does) and then by asking "also there was nobody in Transylvania?" you were bound to create a s***storm. The subject is sensitive and the inaccurate map and the way you worded the questions didn't help. That doesn't mean some forumists should have attacked you. Maybe the lesson we should all learn is both to avoid personal attack and to respect other's sensitivities if possible.

Posted by: Dénes October 15, 2012 08:25 pm

QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 16, 2012 01:37 am)

Maybe the lesson we should all learn is both to avoid personal attack and to respect other's sensitivities if possible.

I agree with your statement.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Victor October 16, 2012 07:38 am

All I can say is that I am very disappointed with the reactions in this topic. It seems we are still far from being able to discuss sensitive issues with maturity.

Topic closed.