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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Awards & Badges > Clasps of the Crusade Medal


Posted by: Hummel March 06, 2005 09:47 pm
Somebody has information how much was is given of such rods?
And somebody has rod Stalingrad? If there is that send a photo!
Beforehand is grateful.

Posted by: b737 March 07, 2005 11:00 pm
The bar you have posted belongs to the "Crusade against Comunism"medal.There are two types of bars , silvered and bronze.The bars for this medal are:
- AZOV
- BASARABIA
- BUCOVINA
- BUG
- CAUCAZ
- CRIMEA
- DOBROGEA
- DONET
- MAREA NEAGRA
- NIPRU
- NISTRU
- ODESSA
and I have saw a non mentioned bar named KALMUCEA
I don't know nothing about a bar named Stalingrad,never heard about it!!!

Posted by: Hummel March 08, 2005 06:31 pm
Thanks!

Posted by: Hummel March 08, 2005 07:52 pm
New question.
What to receive this rod it is enough to have " Crusade against Comunism " medal. Or how that to be distinguished?

Posted by: Victor March 09, 2005 07:10 am
The owner had to participate in the particular campaign. In this case, the soldier who lost this rod had fought at Odessa in 1941.

Posted by: Carol I March 10, 2005 07:19 pm
I have seen mentioned many bars for this medal, but I do not know if they are all authentic. Please find below their list:

AZOV
BASARABIA
BUCOVINA
BUG
CAUCAZ
CALMUCIA
CRIMEEA
CRIMEIA
DOBROGEA
DONEŢ
KALMUCEA
MAREA NEAGRĂ
MARE NEGRU (misspelling ?)
NIPRU
NISTRU
DNJESTR (for Germans?)
ODESA
ODESSA
PRUT
STALINGRAD

Posted by: Carol I March 10, 2005 07:22 pm
CRIMEIA and CAUCAZ bars
user posted image
Source: http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals/romania3.htm

Posted by: Carol I March 10, 2005 07:24 pm
CRIMEIA bar
user posted image
Source: http://axis101.bizland.com/RomanianAwards01.htm

Posted by: Hummel March 11, 2005 04:37 am
Thanks! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Carol I March 11, 2005 09:12 pm
AZOV bar

Posted by: Carol I March 11, 2005 09:16 pm
BUG, MARE NEGRU, DNJESTR bars
DONEŢ and BASARABIA bars
BUG and DONEŢ silvered bars
DOBROGEA and CRIMEA bars

Source: Internet auction

Posted by: Carol I March 11, 2005 09:23 pm
It seems that there were two kinds of bars: "regular" and silvered. Does anyone know what the requirements for each of them?

It cannot be a random occurrence, as in the certificate of Obergefreiter Müller Gerhard above it was specified that he was awarded the medal with the silvered Crimea bar ("cu Bareta Crimeia /argintată/").

Posted by: Cuza March 12, 2005 02:21 pm
QUOTE
It seems that there were two kinds of bars: "regular" and silvered. Does anyone know what the requirements for each of them?



Klietmann indicates that the bronze bar was for a participant only in that particular battle, whereas a silvered bar was for a participant in that battle and in previous battles wherein a bar was awarded.
That seems odd to me as how many times have you seen multiple bars on the medal all in bronze.
There was a Stalingrad bar that is very rare although copies are out there.

Posted by: Carol I March 12, 2005 04:05 pm
QUOTE (Cuza @ Mar 12 2005, 03:21 PM)
Klietmann indicates that the bronze bar was for a participant only in that particular battle, whereas a silvered bar was for a participant in that battle and in previous battles wherein a bar was awarded.
That seems odd to me as how many times have you seen multiple bars on the medal all in bronze.

I don't think this explanation makes much sense for the reasons you mentioned. Furthermore, if Klietmann is right, the cases with multiple bars should always be one bronze bar and the remaining silvered bars. But in the images above with multiple bars they are either all bronze or all silvered (if they are authentic).

Besides, in the certificate of Obergefreiter Müller Gerhard above it is specified that he was also awarded the medal, not only the silvered bar for the medal (which meant a second bar according to Klietmann). This could be interpreted as that was his first award both for the medal and the bar. Hence, his first bar was a silvered one, in contradiction to Klietmann's statement.

Posted by: Carol I March 12, 2005 11:29 pm
QUOTE (Cuza @ Mar 12 2005, 03:21 PM)
There was a Stalingrad bar that is very rare although copies are out there.

Do you happen to have an image of the Stalingrad bar?

Posted by: Carol I March 12, 2005 11:31 pm
BUG bar
user posted image
Source: http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/eng/39romania.html

Posted by: Cuza March 12, 2005 11:48 pm
[/QUOTE]
Do you happen to have an image of the Stalingrad bar?[/QUOTE]
QUOTE
Do you happen to have an image of the Stalingrad bar?


I do-now to find it . . .

Posted by: Carol I March 13, 2005 09:57 am
I have noticed another difference. Take a look at the bars in the image below http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=28523 by b737. Some bars are rectangular and have the text over the full width (like NIPRU), while others have round edges and the text in a small box in the centre (like NISTRU and CAUCAZ). What was the reason/meaning/cause of these differences?

user posted image

Posted by: Cuza March 13, 2005 02:14 pm
QUOTE (Carol I @ Mar 12 2005, 05:29 PM)

Do you happen to have an image of the Stalingrad bar?


user posted image

Posted by: Cuza March 13, 2005 02:15 pm
QUOTE (Carol I @ Mar 13 2005, 03:57 AM)
Some bars are rectangular and have the text over the full width (like NIPRU), while others have round edges and the text in a small box in the centre (like NISTRU and CAUCAZ). What was the reason/meaning/cause of these differences?


Maybe different manufacturers?

Posted by: Dénes March 14, 2005 05:38 pm
Here are several medals currently on eBay, with bars:

Posted by: Dénes March 14, 2005 05:38 pm
Close-up of the bars:

Posted by: Dénes March 14, 2005 05:40 pm
The same medal with a ribbon style I haven't seen so far (also on eBay):

Posted by: Carol I March 15, 2005 07:51 pm
QUOTE (Cuza @ Mar 13 2005, 03:15 PM)
QUOTE (Carol I @ Mar 13 2005, 03:57 AM)
Some bars are rectangular and have the text over the full width (like NIPRU), while others have round edges and the text in a small box in the centre (like NISTRU and CAUCAZ). What was the reason/meaning/cause of these differences?

Maybe different manufacturers?

I just remembered that ribbons used by the Germans were narrower than the Romanian ones. It could therefore be possible that the 'text-in-a-box' bars were manufactured according to German ribbon specifications. Can anyone confirm this hypothesis?

Posted by: Carol I March 15, 2005 08:01 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Mar 14 2005, 06:40 PM)
The same medal with a ribbon style I haven't seen so far (also on eBay):
user posted image

If I remember right this ribbon style was used by Bulgaria and Hungary during WWII. As Bulgaria did not participate to the campaign against the Soviet Union, the only remaining option is Hungary. It could therefore be possible that this medal was awarded to a Hungarian.

Posted by: Dénes March 16, 2005 03:57 pm
Here is the same medal with a different ribbon (fake?).

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Carol I March 17, 2005 08:24 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Mar 16 2005, 04:57 PM)
Here is the same medal with a different ribbon (fake?).

user posted image

This is not the original ribbon of the medal.

Posted by: Carol I March 17, 2005 08:36 pm
By the way, I have just remembered that it is said that there are medals that are signed "P GRANT" under the head on the obverse/reverse (sometimes referred to as "official issues") and medals that are not signed. Can anyone confirm this? What is the story behind these versions?

Posted by: dragos03 October 25, 2005 05:16 pm
I think the medals with "P. Grant" are the only original ones, while the unsigned ones are repros. This medal seems to have been faked in great numbers. It is way too ofter seen in WW2 German medal bars that show up on E-Bay and on dealer sites.

As for the award criteria, it was required that the awarded person took part in at least one major battle. I think they started to award it to officers and foreigners and the lower grades didn't have the chance to get it until 23 August 1944.

Posted by: Dénes October 25, 2005 06:35 pm
Here is the original pouch for the discussed medal.

Gen. Dénes

user posted image

Posted by: boonicootza October 25, 2005 07:13 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Oct 25 2005, 07:16 PM)
I think the medals with "P. Grant" are the only original ones, while the unsigned ones are repros.

I have seen this information on wehrmacht awards forum:
QUOTE
there were basically 2 types of official Crusade medals-those made in Rumania and those made in Germany. The latter are a little better in detail and lack the 'P. Grant" underneath the head of Ms. Rumania.
Souval also cranked them out after 1948 and well into the 1970s.



Posted by: Carol I October 26, 2005 07:25 am
Thanks for your replies.

Do you know what is meant with the quote below? Were these medals produced officially?
QUOTE
Souval also cranked them out after 1948 and well into the 1970s.

Posted by: boonicootza October 26, 2005 12:48 pm
From what I know Souval produced after the war medals and badges of the Third Reich and probably the romanian medal. From 1957 they produced denazified versions for veterans, and I believe that produced the Crusade against Bolshevism medal too. The medals were manufactured officially for veterans.


Posted by: Carol I October 26, 2005 03:09 pm
QUOTE (boonicootza @ Oct 26 2005, 01:48 PM)
From what I know Souval produced after the war medals and badges of the Third Reich and probably the romanian medal. From 1957 they produced denazified versions for veterans, and  I believe that produced the Crusade against Bolshevism medal too. The medals were manufactured officially for veterans.

Thanks. Were the Souval issues sanctioned by the National Mint? I guess that only then one can speak about official issues. Otherwise the medals should be regarded only as privately made copies, shouldn't they?

What are the characteristic features of the Souval medals?

Posted by: dragos03 October 26, 2005 04:09 pm
Interesting information. Are the Souval-made medals signed by "P. Grant"?

In any case, they should be considered copies.

Posted by: Carol I November 02, 2005 10:26 pm
According to Safta et al book on Romanian war decorations, the Crusade medal was instituted on 1 April 1942 by Royal Decree no. 1014 and was awarded irrespective of rank to all military and auxiliary personnel with distinguished activity on the Eastern front.

An interesting note regards the metal bars. It appears that only one bar was supposed to be worn at one time, namely the bar corresponding to the latest battle to which the bearer of the medal has participated. And the authors also mention that the fact that the first bar was bronze and all the subsequent ones were silvered. If this is true, then the medals with multiple bars are in violation of the regulations. Does anyone have access to the decree that instituted the medal to confirm the regulations?

Posted by: Dénes November 09, 2005 07:27 pm
A 'Cruciada...' medal with a CRIMEA bar/rod (currently on eBay).
Notice the different spelling, compared to the similar bar shown on the previous page (spelled CRIMEIA).

user posted image

There is an interesting note inserted by the seller:
QUOTE
Rumänien, Medaille Kreuzzug gegen den Kommunismus, sog. Kukuruz-orden (für das Beobachten von Maisfeldern)

I haven't heard this medal being dubbed the 'Kukuruz-orden' (i.e. 'maise medal', reference to forward observers, who watched the battlefield from corn field). blink.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Carol I November 09, 2005 08:08 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Nov 9 2005, 08:27 PM)
A 'Cruciada...' medal with a CRIMEA bar/rod (currently on eBay).
Notice the different spelling, compared to the similar bar shown on the previous page (spelled CRIMEIA).

user posted image

Dénes, thanks for providing this confirmation of the CRIMEA bar. I was beginning to think that the bar in the image http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=28935 was the only one (although its presence together with another bronze bar might raise some questions if Klietmann or Safta et al are right).

Posted by: dragos03 November 09, 2005 08:17 pm
A German medal bar with a "Crusade" medal with "CRIMEIA" bar.

Notice that the Romanian medal was mounted on the bar in a different way compared to the German ones, in order to mount the bar.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: Carol I November 09, 2005 08:22 pm
Speaking about the Safta et al book on Romanian war decorations, I must quote something from it:
QUOTE (Safta et al)
The ten bars, with the names of the respective battles were: BUCOVINA, BASARABIA, DOBROGEA, NISTRU, ODESSA, BUG, NIPRU, AZOV, CRIMEEA, DONEŢ, MAREA NEAGRĂ

I know that we have identified more than ten bars, but I wonder which one of the eleven listed by the authors does not fit in the list. laugh.gif

Posted by: dragos03 November 11, 2005 07:47 pm
One with "Caucaz" bar, from E-bay.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: dragos03 November 11, 2005 08:22 pm
And a German 4-place medal bar, including a Crusade medal with "Donet" bar. Originally posted on the wermacht awards forum.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: Carol I November 11, 2005 09:07 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Nov 9 2005, 08:27 PM)
A 'Cruciada...' medal with a CRIMEA bar/rod (currently on eBay).

user posted image

user posted image

The interesting aspect with this medal is that it has a narrow (German style?) ribbon with a broad bar. How common was that?

Posted by: Carol I November 11, 2005 09:09 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Nov 11 2005, 08:47 PM)
One with "Caucaz" bar, from E-bay.

user posted image

user posted image

Here we have the opposite case: a medal with wide ribbon and narrow bar. Common?

Posted by: Carol I November 11, 2005 09:50 pm
It appears that the term for the metal additions to the ribbon of the medal is 'clasp'. I will use this term from now on.

Based on the images posted this far, I can update the list of clasps of the 'Crusade' medal (bold-faced names refer to images of broad clasps posted this far; italic-faced names refer to narrow clasps posted this far; simple-faced names refer to bars that have yet to be posted).

AZOV
BASARABIA
BUCOVINA
BUG
CAUCAZ
CALMUCIA
CRIMEA
CRIMEEA
CRIMEIA
DOBROGEA
DONEŢ
KALMUCEA
MAREA NEAGRĂ
MARE NEGRU (misspelling ?)
NIPRU
NISTRU
DNJESTR (for Germans?)
ODESA
ODESSA
PRUT
STALINGRAD

Please let us know if you have knowledge of any further clasps or other errors in the list (fakes - more or less notorious, details on the various versions for names etc.).

Posted by: boonicootza November 12, 2005 02:11 am
Here is Bucovina bar. I think it was for sale on ebay some time ago

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: Carol I November 12, 2005 10:33 am
A narrow DONEŢ clasp on a broad ribbon (also from eBay)

user posted image

Posted by: Carol I November 12, 2005 10:51 am
We can update the list of clasps for the 'Crusade' medal (bold-faced names ­- confirmed broad clasps; italic-faced names -­ confirmed narrow clasps; simple-faced names ­- clasps that have yet to be seen).

AZOV
BASARABIA
BUCOVINA
BUG
CAUCAZ
CALMUCIA
CRIMEA
CRIMEEA
CRIMEIA
DOBROGEA
DONEŢ
KALMUCEA
MAREA NEAGRĂ
MARE NEGRU (misspelling ?)
NIPRU
NISTRU
DNJESTR (for Germans?)
ODESA
ODESSA
PRUT
STALINGRAD

Are there any further details to update this list?

Posted by: Dénes November 22, 2005 09:22 pm
A 'Cruciada...' brevet with BUG clasp [from eBay].

Gen. Dénes

user posted image

Posted by: Carol I November 23, 2005 07:37 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Nov 22 2005, 10:22 PM)
A 'Cruciada...' brevet with BUG clasp [from eBay].

Gen. Dénes

user posted image

If I read right it is for the silvered 'BUG' clasp.

Posted by: Carol I February 04, 2006 03:52 pm
Crusade medal with a silvered 'CRIMEIA' clasp (from eBay):

user posted image

Posted by: Carol I February 25, 2006 02:16 am
QUOTE (Carol I @ Mar 17 2005, 09:36 PM)
By the way, I have just remembered that it is said that there are medals that are signed "P GRANT" under the head on the obverse/reverse (sometimes referred to as "official issues") and medals that are not signed. Can anyone confirm this? What is the story behind these versions?

Medal signed "P. GRANT." under the head:

user posted image
Source: Internet auction

Posted by: boonicootza April 17, 2006 06:52 pm
Here is one with ODESA clasp:

http://imageshack.us

Originally posted o militariacollecting forum

Posted by: Carol I April 17, 2006 06:59 pm
Thanks boonicootza. Here is the updated list of clasps for the 'Crusade' medal.

AZOV
BASARABIA
BUCOVINA
BUG
CAUCAZ
CALMUCIA
CRIMEA
CRIMEEA
CRIMEIA
DOBROGEA
DONEŢ
KALMUCEA
MAREA NEAGRĂ
MARE NEGRU (misspelling ?)
NIPRU
NISTRU
DNJESTR (for Germans?)
ODESA
ODESSA
PRUT
STALINGRAD

(bold-faced names ­- confirmed broad clasps; italic-faced names -­ confirmed narrow clasps; simple-faced names ­- clasps that have yet to be seen)

Posted by: Cuza April 22, 2006 10:05 pm
QUOTE (Carol I @ Apr 17 2006, 12:59 PM)
MAREA NEAGRĂ
[ simple-faced names ­- clasps that have yet to be seen)

Marea Neagra on a Knight Order of the Star ribbon.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: Carol I April 23, 2006 09:57 pm
QUOTE (Cuza @ Apr 22 2006, 11:05 PM)
Marea Neagra on a Knight Order of the Star ribbon.

Interesting combination. Has anyone seen another one or at least read about its existence? As far as I know, these clasps were only for the 'Crusade' medal.

Posted by: Dénes May 09, 2006 05:39 pm
Here is a very nicely preserved Crusade medal with 'MAREA NEAGRA' clasp (from eBay):

user posted image

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Carol I May 10, 2006 12:38 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 9 2006, 06:39 PM)
Here is a very nicely preserved Crusade medal with 'MAREA NEAGRA' clasp (from eBay):

http://img425.imageshack.us/img425/8374/mcommunismemareaneagra6yy.jpg

The suspension device is detached from the medal.

Posted by: Dénes May 10, 2006 01:44 pm
Yes, the ribbon ring is apparently broken from the medal.
I did not notice it, as I was (and always am) in a hurry. dry.gif
The clasp is nice (and rare), though...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Carol I May 10, 2006 02:32 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 10 2006, 02:44 PM)
The clasp is nice (and rare), though...

It is very rare indeed. This one and the one posted by Cuza are the only MAREA NEAGRĂ clasps I have seen.

Posted by: Dénes May 11, 2006 06:46 pm
Here is the medal with swords (from eBay).
I haven't see this one before.

Gen. Dénes

user posted image

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger May 11, 2006 08:24 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 11 2006, 06:46 PM)
Here is the medal with swords (from eBay).
I haven't see this one before.

Gen. Dénes

user posted image

Hallo Gen Denes biggrin.gif

adding swords to a military ribbon is the easiest thing in the world to do, in this case they are totaly unofficial otherwise we would heve encountered hundreds of them before now.

My basic guide is: If there is no paperwork to cover the issue of the insignia, i.e. Brevet, or any photographic evidence from WW2 (or what ever conflict) showing such an item in wear, then it must be viewed as a "Fantasy" until such proof comes to light.

Otherwise we would be up to our ears in "Fantasy" pieces.

Kevin in Deva. blink.gif

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR May 16, 2006 12:48 pm
I don't know about that. I have seen this piece several times from Germany. It is always on a small thinner ribbon with swords applied. Smaller thinner ribbons were used by the Germans and the crossed swords appear to be German as well. Your research should start with the German Army units.

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger May 16, 2006 08:00 pm
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ May 16 2006, 12:48 PM)
I don't know about that. I have seen this piece several times from Germany. It is always on a small thinner ribbon with swords applied. Smaller thinner ribbons were used by the Germans and the crossed swords appear to be German as well. Your research should start with the German Army units.


This Romanian award as worn by the germans, if it had swords added they would be totally unofficial and against regulations. Finding thiner German ribbon is no proof the swords were attached officialy.

German military regulations with regards to the wearing of Foreign awards was structly followed, anything unotherised would immediately attract the attention of the "Kettenhunde" German Military Police wink.gif and if the item was not written up in the soldier SOLDBUCH then he was in serious troube, (a cases is known where a German soldier was nearly shot, for wearing a decoration, it was thought he was not entitled too blink.gif )

You might as well claim the Italian Un-official Africa medal (Presented only to German Afrika-Korps personel and never to Italians troops, and tolarated by the German High Command, until the Italians deserted to the Allied side) has been seen with swords as well. huh.gif

By documentry proof I mean Ww2 pictures, I have read many books on WW2 and never seen this Romanian medal with swords applied, if you have any such pictures please post them for study.

I also lived in Germany for 5 years and never came across such a Romanian medal with swords, many of the medals but no German swords attached. And the picture posted on this site is the first I have seen of it, which is strange since I have been collecting medals since I retired in 1997 and reading military books for the last 38 years. If there were many of these medals with swords then statistics state I should have come across one before now.

Kevin in Deva. biggrin.gif

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR May 17, 2006 02:54 am
QUOTE (New Connaught Ranger @ May 16 2006, 08:00 PM)
This Romanian award as worn by the germans, if it had swords added they would be totally unofficial and against regulations. Finding thiner German ribbon is no proof the swords were attached officialy.

By documentry proof I mean Ww2 pictures, I have read many books on WW2 and never seen this Romanian medal with swords applied, if you have any such pictures please post them for study.

I also lived in Germany for 5 years and never came across such a Romanian medal with swords, many of the medals but no German swords attached. And the picture posted on this site is the first I have seen of it, which is strange since I have been collecting medals since I retired in 1997 and reading military books for the last 38 years. If there were many of these medals with swords then statistics state I should have come across one before now.

Kevin in Deva. biggrin.gif

Like I said earlier... all of these medals I have seen for sale with the thinner ribbons and swords applied to them came out of the German medals market. Further research is needed.

Posted by: Dénes June 02, 2006 06:07 pm
Below is a so-called Death Card of a German soldier, with the following (rare) note:
Träger der Rumänischen Medaille "Kreuzzug gegen den Kommunismus" und der versilberten Spange "Bessarabien".

user posted image
[From eBay]

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes June 06, 2006 04:33 pm
Here is a numbered Crusade medal - the first one I see. Is it original?

user posted image
[From eBay]

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Carol I June 07, 2006 07:39 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 6 2006, 05:33 PM)
Here is a numbered Crusade medal - the first one I see. Is it original?

user posted image
[From eBay]

The numbering appears to be hand-written. If the medal was meant to be numbered I would have expected to be done with a stamping method.

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger July 02, 2006 03:22 pm
ANOTHER FANTASY INSIGNIA ON A "CRUSADE AGAINST COMMUNISUM" 1941 MEDAL.

This was recently posted on Ebay Germany:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270001746547&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:DE:122

and the description:

Orden Kampf gegen den Kommunismus, 2.WK mit Schwerter

Orden Kampf gegen den Kommunismus, 2.WK mit zusätzlicher goldener Schwerterauflage auf dem Band


With Goldern Swords on the ribbon!!!!* *

verliehen unter anderem an Angehörige der deutschen Wehrmacht die im Rahmen der Kampfhandlungen mit den rumänischen Verbündeten während des 2. Weltkrieges gekämpft hatten. Gestiftet am 1.4.1942 von König Michael I. von Rumänien.

Dieser Orden wurde besonderen Offizieren der rumänischen Eisernen Garde verliehen, damals gab es eine Elitetruppe von Legionären die sich mit Deutschland verbunden hatten. Der Orden wurde auch wie bereits erwähnt an deutsche Soldaten verliehen. / This Order was worn by an Officer of the Romanian IRON GUARD, he was a member of an ELITE TROOP of the IRON GUARD who joined with the German Army, the Order was also given to German soldiers.

Auf der Vorderseite des Ordens ist das Kopfbild von P. Grant, einem Minister des damaligen Königs von Rumänien und folgende Worte:

On the frontside of the Medal is the head of P.GRANT, a Minister of the King of Romania, and the following words are written:

ROMANIA RECUNOSCATOARE

Auf der Rückseite ist eine Hand die ein Schwert hält, die Jahreszahl 1941 und folgende Worte:

IMPOTRIVA COMMUSNISMULUI CRUCIADA

Sehr guter Zustand mit schöner Alterspatina

Some idiot has bid 20 Euro 49 Euro cents blink.gif

http://imageshack.us

http://imageshack.us

* * = The swords are of a German design, and have no connection whatsoever to this award.

Kevin in Deva biggrin.gif

Posted by: mihai July 22, 2006 05:20 am
THis is the envelpoe of the medal,
Is this envelope variation?

http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1006169zr2.jpg
MIhai

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger July 22, 2006 05:17 pm
Up for Auction on Ebay UK,

3 Bars but how are they are supposed to fasten to the ribbon?? unsure.gif

I think they are REPRO, take a look at:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140009981828

http://imageshack.us

and I post a picture here for reference.

Kevin in Deva biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dénes July 22, 2006 05:30 pm
The bottom one is spelled erroneously 'MARE NEGRU'. That could be hint of a foreign-made fake.

I believe these metal clasps were attached to the ribbon by folding the two side flaps 180 deg. backwards, over the ribbon's back surface.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Carol I July 22, 2006 05:49 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ July 22, 2006 06:30 pm)
The bottom one is spelled erroneously 'MARE NEGRU'. That could be hint of a foreign-made fake.

Here is another image of a 'MARE NEGRU' clasp (from the http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=28935 of this thread).

user posted image

It could very well be that these clasps are fakes, but could it also be possible that they were made in Germany where they were misspelled? There are other variations: 'CALMUCIA'-'KALMUCEA', 'CRIMEEA'-'CRIMEIA', 'NISTRU'-'DNJESTR', 'ODESA'-'ODESSA'. If the misspelling is a sign that the clasp is a fake, which of the above spellings are real and which are fakes?

Posted by: Dénes July 23, 2006 03:02 am
QUOTE (Carol I @ July 22, 2006 11:49 pm)
There are other variations: 'CALMUCIA'-'KALMUCEA', 'CRIMEEA'-'CRIMEIA', 'NISTRU'-'DNJESTR', 'ODESA'-'ODESSA'. If the misspelling is a sign that the clasp is a fake, which of the above spellings are real and which are fakes?

All these names you listed are foreign ones, so the spelling variations are not uncommon.

However, I can hardly believe any Rumanian manufacturer would spell 'Marea Neagra' as 'Mare Negru' smile.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Carol I July 23, 2006 08:45 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ July 23, 2006 04:02 am)
QUOTE (Carol I @ July 22, 2006 11:49 pm)
There are other variations: 'CALMUCIA'-'KALMUCEA', 'CRIMEEA'-'CRIMEIA', 'NISTRU'-'DNJESTR', 'ODESA'-'ODESSA'. If the misspelling is a sign that the clasp is a fake, which of the above spellings are real and which are fakes?

All these names you listed are foreign ones, so the spelling variations are not uncommon.

However, I can hardly believe any Rumanian manufacturer would spell 'Marea Neagra' as 'Mare Negru' smile.gif

I wouldn't call 'NISTRU' a foreign name, would I?

Anyhow, the idea was not that a Romanian manufacturer misspelled the names, but that a German one did.

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 23, 2006 01:17 pm
Does anyone have any photos of German soldiers wearing this medal with bars ? I have only seen them wearing the medal without.

Posted by: b737 July 23, 2006 03:20 pm
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ July 23, 2006 01:17 pm)
Does anyone have any photos of German soldiers wearing this medal with bars ? I have only seen them wearing the medal without.

I saw some awarding certificates from this medal with bars awarded to german soldiers.

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 23, 2006 03:33 pm
I have seen examples of these as well. However, I have not actually seen photographs of German soldiers actually wearing this medal with bars.

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger July 23, 2006 04:00 pm
Hallo Gentlemen biggrin.gif

I contacted the seller of the bars via ebay and asked the size of the bars,
his reply

"Thes are 25mm width, not including the folding tabs. Therefore I suppose they are the German issue." End of Reply.

I have a sample of Romanian ribbon at 38mm in width and a sample of German ribbon at 26mm.
The standard German ribbon width was about 25 / 26mm I believe for WW2 Medal bars.

The other thing I find strange is there is no hole in the bars for fixing the bars to the ribbon, it was hardly meant for them to slide up or down freely and the chances of losing them would be high, so I rate them as REPRO / FAKE.

Kevin in Deva biggrin.gif


Posted by: Carol I July 23, 2006 07:04 pm
QUOTE (b737 @ July 23, 2006 04:20 pm)
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ July 23, 2006 01:17 pm)
Does anyone have any photos of German soldiers wearing this medal with bars ? I have only seen them wearing the medal without.

I saw some awarding certificates from this medal with bars awarded to german soldiers.

An example from the http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=28856 of this thread.

user posted image

Posted by: Carol I July 23, 2006 07:06 pm
QUOTE (New Connaught Ranger @ July 23, 2006 05:00 pm)
The other thing I find strange is there is no hole in the bars for fixing the bars to the ribbon, it was hardly meant for them to slide up or down freely and the chances of losing them would be high, so I rate them as REPRO / FAKE.

Are these fakes as well?
user posted image
Originally http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=29125 by Dénes

Posted by: Carol I July 23, 2006 07:09 pm
QUOTE (mihai @ July 22, 2006 06:20 am)
THis is the envelpoe of the medal,
Is this envelope variation?

user posted image

See another envelope in an http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=41042 by Dénes.

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 23, 2006 07:21 pm
From what I see in the last 5 or 6 posts, it all appears to be original. I am wondereing about the German made bars. They made them also in gold and silver ?

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 24, 2006 12:00 am
QUOTE (Carol I @ July 23, 2006 07:04 pm)
QUOTE (b737 @ July 23, 2006 04:20 pm)
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ July 23, 2006 01:17 pm)
Does anyone have any photos of German soldiers wearing this medal with bars ? I have only seen them wearing the medal without.

I saw some awarding certificates from this medal with bars awarded to german soldiers.

An example from the http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=28856 of this thread.

user posted image

Interesting to note that the Brevet specificaqlly denotes a silver bar. Why silver insted of gold ?

Posted by: Carol I July 24, 2006 06:40 am
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ July 24, 2006 01:00 am)
Interesting to note that the Brevet specificaqlly denotes a silver bar. Why silver insted of gold ?

Actually the "metals" were 'bronze' and 'silvered'.

Posted by: b737 July 24, 2006 07:57 am
QUOTE (Carol I @ July 24, 2006 06:40 am)
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ July 24, 2006 01:00 am)
Interesting to note that the Brevet specificaqlly denotes a silver bar. Why silver insted of gold ?

Actually the "metals" were 'bronze' and 'silvered'.

According to Mr Calianu's book the recipients of silvered bars must have participated to all the battles in the area of the location mentioned on the bar!

Mr Klietmann notes in his book that the recipients of such silvered bars sould have participated also to other battles that the one mentioned on the bar!

Posted by: Carol I July 24, 2006 09:32 am
QUOTE (b737 @ July 24, 2006 08:57 am)
According to Mr Calianu's book the recipients of silvered bars must have participated to all the battles in the area of the location mentioned on the bar!

Mr Klietmann notes in his book that the recipients of such silvered bars sould have participated also to other battles that the one mentioned on the bar!

Calianu's explanation makes more sense: those who participated only to a few battles received the bronze clasp, while those who participated to all the major battles received the silvered one.

On the other hand, Klietmann's explanation that the first clasp received was bronze and all the subsequent ones were silvered implies that all awards of the medal with a clasp should be with a bronze one (while the subsequent awards should be silvered clasps only, without the medal). This is however contradicted by the certificate above (unless irregularities did exist).

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger July 24, 2006 11:54 am
Hallo Gentlemen biggrin.gif

Again with regards this thread and the medal and bars in question I will repeat, unless Photographic or documentry evidence is produced then it remains in the fantasy world, hearsay is not conclusive evidence.

http://imageshack.us

Sample of the German made Ribbon for the Romanian "Crusade against Communisum Medal 1941" on the left, and original Romanian Ribbon for the same award, the difference in width is about 10mm.


And if we take it that this bar is supposed to be folded at the edges it clearly is too small for the original Romanian ribbon:

http://imageshack.us

Kevin in Deva biggrin.gif

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 24, 2006 01:12 pm
QUOTE (New Connaught Ranger @ July 24, 2006 11:54 am)
Again with regards this thread and the medal and bars in question I will repeat, unless Photographic or documentry evidence is produced then it remains in the fantasy world, hearsay is not conclusive evidence.

That is why I have originally asked if anyone has any photographic examples of Germans wearing bars. I have not seen any. I have only seen a handful of Romanian Brevets issued to German soldiers that indicate silver bars being awarded. I am assuming that they were issued. However, under the conditions the Germans were in, I don't think that they took the time to sew these bars on their uniforms and if they were capturd by the Russians, these bars would not look so hot for the soldier. My geuss.

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 24, 2006 01:16 pm
Kingdom of Romania - Medal award document dated 1943 - The Medal for the Crusade Against Communism - With Campaign Bar KRIM (Crimea) silvered. To a Wachtmeister SCHIERMEIER of the German army unit D.V.K. fighting on the Russian front. Brevet from Ebay.

http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brevetnf3.jpg

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 24, 2006 01:18 pm
Kingdom of Romania - Medal award document dated 1943 - The Medal for the Crusade Against Communism - With Campaign Bar MAREA NEAGRA silvered. To a Gefreiter DRECHSEL of 1/IR 31 of the German army fighting on the Russian front. Brevet from Ebay.

http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brevet1nh6.jpg

Posted by: Carol I July 24, 2006 02:19 pm
QUOTE (New Connaught Ranger @ July 24, 2006 12:54 pm)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1964/romribbp6.jpg
Sample of the German made Ribbon for the Romanian "Crusade against Communisum Medal 1941" on the left, and original Romanian Ribbon for the same award, the difference in width is about 10mm.

And if we take it that this bar is supposed to be folded at the edges it clearly is two small for the original Romanian ribbon:

user posted image

QUOTE (Carol I @ 15 March 2005)
I just remembered that ribbons used by the Germans were narrower than the Romanian ones. It could therefore be possible that the 'text-in-a-box' bars were manufactured according to German ribbon specifications.

biggrin.gif

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger July 25, 2006 09:07 am
Hallo Gentlemen biggrin.gif

Photographic* or documentry evidence** is produced then it remains in the fantasy world, hearsay is not conclusive evidence.

* this means a period picture taken during the time of WW2 and not the seller's picture of a bar being shown for auction.

** I have asked for information regarding the Official Military Regulations and the wearing of Foreign Decorations by the Wehrmacht in WW2.

As soon as I get a reply I will post the relevant information here.

Kevin in Deva. biggrin.gif

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR July 25, 2006 12:58 pm
QUOTE (Carol I @ July 24, 2006 02:19 pm)
QUOTE (New Connaught Ranger @ July 24, 2006 12:54 pm)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1964/romribbp6.jpg
Sample of the German made Ribbon for the Romanian "Crusade against Communisum Medal 1941" on the left, and original Romanian Ribbon for the same award, the difference in width is about 10mm.

And if we take it that this bar is supposed to be folded at the edges it clearly is two small for the original Romanian ribbon:

user posted image

QUOTE (Carol I @ 15 March 2005)
I just remembered that ribbons used by the Germans were narrower than the Romanian ones. It could therefore be possible that the 'text-in-a-box' bars were manufactured according to German ribbon specifications.

biggrin.gif

It appears that the German made bars had rounded blank ends. These were then puntured to produce a hole for sewing onto the ribbon. Romanian bars had tabs that folded over and behind the ribbon for attachment.

Posted by: Carol I July 25, 2006 01:34 pm
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ July 25, 2006 01:58 pm)
It appears that the German made bars had rounded blank ends. These were then puntured to produce a hole for sewing onto the ribbon. Romanian bars had tabs that folded over and behind the ribbon for attachment.

If the medals below are authentic, the Romanian clasps also had rounded blank ends which were supposed to be folded behind the ribbon. It was only the width of the 'useful' region of the clasp that was different.

user posted image user posted image
Originally http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&st=15 by Dénes

Posted by: Carol I August 05, 2006 04:07 pm
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ July 23, 2006 02:17 pm)
Does anyone have any photos of German soldiers wearing this medal with bars ? I have only seen them wearing the medal without.

user posted image
Originally http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1820&view=findpost&p=41389 by Dénes

Posted by: mihai August 12, 2006 10:16 am
Other clasp of "Crimea" in ebay
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=041lt3.jpg
source ebay

MIhai

Posted by: Ulsterman March 30, 2007 04:34 am
photographic evidence:

The man on the right has a bar on his Crusade medal at the top-directly below his ribbons. I can't make out the bar's letters, even under extreme magnification, but I can tell it spans the entire ribbon and seems to bend behind the ribbon, not be sewn on like some of the above examples.

Posted by: Ulsterman March 30, 2007 04:35 am
photographic evidence:

The man on the right has a bar on his Crusade medal at the top-directly below his ribbons. I can't make out the bar's letters, even under extreme magnification, but I can tell it spans the entire ribbon and seems to bend behind the ribbon, not be sewn on like some of the above examples.


well, apparently this doesn't work-so off to GMIC.

Posted by: tempest October 31, 2007 03:09 pm
user posted image


the medal is sliver, I think this is a fake I

Posted by: Yu_L.Yan July 27, 2008 08:13 pm
QUOTE (Carol I @ November 12, 2005 10:51 am)

Are there any further details to update this list?

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00015er5.jpg
"PRUT" bar

Posted by: Claudiu1988 July 27, 2008 08:19 pm
QUOTE (Yu_L.Yan @ July 27, 2008 08:13 pm)
QUOTE (Carol I @ November 12, 2005 10:51 am)

Are there any further details to update this list?

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00015er5.jpg
"PRUT" bar

There is a mistake at the Nipru bar, the ribbon is from the Centenary Medal 1939.

Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR November 03, 2008 01:21 am
Here is an interesting combination. Any thoughts on this one ?
http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ordkreuzzugauflagencv7.jpghttp://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php

Posted by: Dénes November 03, 2008 06:41 am
A hand-written Yalta sign attached to an airplane pin? It's interesting, indeed. A Luftwaffe liaison officer perhaps?

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: RHaught November 05, 2008 04:41 am
QUOTE (REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR @ November 03, 2008 01:21 am)
Here is an interesting combination. Any thoughts on this one ?
http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ordkreuzzugauflagencv7.jpghttp://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php

It's on Ebay right now. Watching it also as well as another one he has listed. Seem to becoming a little more "found" as time goes by.

Posted by: Yu_L.Yan April 24, 2009 09:39 pm
http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brjkhegwkkgrhgohdwejlll.jpg
Source: http://cgi.ebay.com/Romania-Anti-Communist-Medal_W0QQitemZ250412927756QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_2?hash=item250412927756&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

Posted by: Alexei2102 May 16, 2009 11:36 am
FYI,

Romanian officer wearing the ribbon with "Crimeia" bar.

user posted image

Posted by: Alexei2102 May 16, 2009 11:37 am
Detail:

user posted image


Posted by: b737 August 02, 2009 10:12 pm
What do you think about this one? Original,fake or fantasy clasp?

http://img16.imageshack.us/i/btri.jpg/

Posted by: Alexei2102 August 03, 2009 04:33 am
Fantasy IMO.

Posted by: Alexei2102 September 12, 2009 06:45 pm
Gents,

This looks to me like the famous "STALINGRAD" bar in wear.

What do you think ?

Alex

user posted image

Posted by: Alexei2102 September 12, 2009 06:51 pm
Secondary detail.

user posted image

Posted by: Ahile February 11, 2010 07:29 pm
can anyone tell me what is the origine of the 2.5 mm clasp, why german ribbon for crusade medal is that wide

Ahile

Posted by: Alexei2102 April 05, 2010 08:26 am
ODESA bar in wear.

http://img406.imageshack.us/i/baretaodesa.jpg/

Thanks for looking and Happy Easter everyone.

Al


Posted by: Alexei2102 June 27, 2010 04:43 pm
Hello gents,

The first foto that I ever see with the Crusade in full worn with three bars.

Enjoy,

Al

user posted image

Posted by: RedBaron July 29, 2010 01:20 pm
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190320632459&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

ce parere aveti? fake/original?

Posted by: Ulsterman August 05, 2010 04:13 am
Medal is original IMHO.
The bar looks german/ Souval made, but might well be war time production.
VERY expensive though. huh.gif

Posted by: RedBaron August 05, 2010 09:48 am
indeed and the NIPRU bar looks as new - could that be an effect of polishing the bar or such?

Posted by: rafaelega February 15, 2011 09:47 pm
Hello. This is my crusade medal. What do you think about it? Any idea about the price I can ask for it?

http://img580.imageshack.us/i/rumana1.jpg/



http://img413.imageshack.us/i/rumana2.jpg/


Posted by: PenkOne June 26, 2011 06:51 pm
Hi everyone! I'm new on this topic.I have found a bar. It's name is DON. Could anyone tell me anything about this bar please ?
Thank you very much!
the link with the bar : http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/67563295765570254337442.jpg/

Julian.

Posted by: Alexei2102 June 27, 2011 07:46 am
QUOTE (PenkOne @ June 26, 2011 06:51 pm)
Hi everyone! I'm new on this topic.I have found a bar. It's name is DON. Could anyone tell me anything about this bar please ?
Thank you very much!
the link with the bar : http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/67563295765570254337442.jpg/

Julian.

This particular piece sparked a lot of passion on okazii - is it yours ?

It is a nice original mini.

Al

Posted by: PenkOne July 24, 2011 10:17 am
Here are some nice bars.Those are in my private collection.What do you say about them? Here are the pics:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/p1170091s.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/p1170094.jpg/

Posted by: Alexei2102 July 24, 2011 10:27 am
Added together piece, Don and Caucaz bars are good, the Stalingrad bar is marked with a "?" mark.

Just my 02 cents on the matter.

Al

Posted by: T.M.T. November 06, 2011 12:13 pm
Hello Gents,

What do you think about next clasps? unsure.gif

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5199/cibbaretaazov.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/cibbaretacrimea.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/cibbaretamarenegrus.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/cibbaretadonets.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/cibbaretadobrogeas.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/cibbaretadnjestrs.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/cibbaretabugs.jpg/




Posted by: Ahile December 22, 2011 07:51 am
Sorry to say ,but Traditia ribbon clasp/bar is not a fantasy.

Posted by: Alexei2102 December 22, 2011 11:22 am
QUOTE (Ahile @ December 22, 2011 07:51 am)
Sorry to say ,but Traditia ribbon clasp/bar is not a fantasy.

And why, please ?

Posted by: Ahile December 22, 2011 12:09 pm
It has been told to me by a serious collector, and also he have me a document saying that, has the same purpose as the 1916-1918/1919 Traditia ribbon bar.There are a lot of gaps that not too manny knows.

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