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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > WW2 in General > ww2 nazi man from Romania|
|Posted by: Ferdinand March 21, 2008 06:25 pm|
| hi guys,
looking to some documentary i found out that some important guys from german nazi war machine were from romania:
so meet no 1:
fritz klein/ born in codlea(10 km from brasov) in 1888
dr. in auschwitz, bergen belsen....etc
[photo removed - lack of sources]
here we can see him when the british liberated bergen belsen: he was triing to pas as an inmate
[photo removed - lack of sources]
[photo removed - lack of sources]
here dr. klein doing his job when the british arrived
[photo removed - lack of sources]
born in miercurea sibiului, he was a "bayern company" sales representant, and later he become ss officer and right hand of mengele/
auschwitz farmacist-responsable with cyclon b gas
[photo removed - lack of sources]
pics from internet but i have capesius in some documentary....must search to post some ore pics if anyone interested.
|Posted by: Alexei2102 March 21, 2008 06:44 pm|
| Many members of KZ personnel were Romanian Volksdeutsche. Dr. Klein is mentioned in Olga Lengyel's book about Auschwitz.
|Posted by: Ferdinand March 21, 2008 06:49 pm|
| yes i know, there were a lot of soldiers from ss originary from romania
did you knew that?!?
|Posted by: Florin April 03, 2008 06:10 am|
There were at least 600,000 ethnic Germans in Romania in 1934, and this means there more in the 1940's. Of course many of them entered in SS, same as the ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia.
The question is: How many ethnic Romanians entered in SS? There were some, most of them Romanian soldiers taken prisoners after August 23, 1944. But there were also British prisoners enrolling in SS, and fighting under Waffen SS. There were women, British citizens, who were SS guards at Ravensbruck concentration camp.
The ethnic Romanians entering in SS were less in numbers than the Belgians, French, Dutch and Norwegians entering in SS (comparing with each of them, not together).
There were Muslims from Bosnia entering in SS, and the guys from the Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia, Lituania), and the Spaniards from "Azul".
There were Arabs and Indians enrolled in SS.
Some sources say that 100,000 Ukrainians were in SS. While the number is arguable, still gives an idea.
To make it short: give us a break!
Why don’t you use your energy on the Jewish websites?
I can offer you a good subject for a topic there: the rich Jews who sponsored the electoral campaign of Hitler, in 1932.
Or the fact that one grandmother of Reinhard Heidrich, chief of the RSHA, was Jewish.
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger April 03, 2008 07:21 am|
I take it from your posts that this area of World War 2 military history is new to you?
Just a couple of points with regards your posts, you might state where you found the pictures, from what source.
You might also attach the original captions as yours are a bit misleading:
Photo: 1 shows him on trial, the number is to help identify him to the court, as so many people were being tried at one time and this was used so the court could identify which prisoner was which.
Photo 2: Shows him under guard of an Allied prisoner. but you caption it "here we can see him when the british liberated bergen belsen: he was triing to pas as an inmate" hard to do when he is still wearing the trousers and jackboots of a German officer.
Photo 3: the same as above.
Photo 4: which you caption as "here dr. klein doing his job when the british arrived"
is obviously showing Klein as a prisoner and being forced to either remove bodies from a mass grave, or place the bodies in a mass grave, a job that many of the German Staff were given to do once extermination Camps and Concentration Camps had been captured from the Nazi's.
He is obviously NOT doing his job, do you think in the ordinary day to day running of the camp he would get his hands dirty by coming into contact with the burial detail.
born in miercurea sibiului, he was a "bayern company" sales representant, and later he become ss officer and right hand of mengele/ auschwitz farmacist-responsable with cyclon b gas"
Are you stating here that Capesius was the right hand of Dr. Mengele of Auschwitz infamy? and Capesius was the Pharmacist responsible for the creation / use of Cyclon-B chemicals used as gas in the camps??
You really need to research your subject more and clearly state what its about otherwise you risk causing confusion.
Florin would you care to explain why
With regards your very loose statements of:
Here you are obviously referring to members of the "British Free Corps" a unit that was created by the Germans, with intention of seeking British Prisoners of War to join up to fight the Communists on the Eastern Front, and a mission that failed mainly because of the lack of interest shown by prisoners, and the 14 - 20 who did join never saw active combat, taking every opportunity to escape from the training camp to go out and have a good time in the bars with German women, than train to fight the Soviets.
They were also used to gather the dead in Dresden after the Firebombing of the city, after this they soon lost heart in becoming allies of the Germans, who never really trusted them any way.
See the Book: RENEGADES Hitlers English Men by Adrian Wheale, ISBN 0-297-81488-5 for details,
Do please post your sources for this statement, as I recall no trial of any "British" warder who was in Ravensbruck, post WW2.
And with regards to people with Jewish family connections living in Germany, many German families had such, rich & poor including many in the Nazi Party, before the Nazi Party introduced Hitlers crazy Racial Purity Regulations it was not a crime to have Jewish connections, even Herr Schickelgrübers (Adolph Hitler) Grandfather in Austria had Jewish blood connections.
How ironic, that the icon of Nazi Racial purity, the leader of the physically perfect Ayrian "supermensch" was contaminated himself.
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: Florin April 03, 2008 01:27 pm|
In the days when the American Library in Bucharest was opened to the public, and that was in 1980's...early1990's, I could find a thick and big book about WWII, with photos, printed in The United States. Not only these British women were mentioned there, but there was also a big photo, covering one page, with these British women in SS uniforms, as SS guards for Ravensbruck camp.
What I have found funny in those long lost times is that in a British book with the same subject, and printed in the same style (big and with many photos) there was no word about British citizens being in SS.
The good news is that the source exist, and because it was printed, it is in thousands of identical copies. The bad news is that I don't know the title. It was printed in the 1980's, that's for sure.
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger April 03, 2008 02:27 pm|
| Hallo Florin,
Your reply still does not verify existence of "British Female Guards", and until then I find it hard to believe, as well as for making claims the British censored the information from their big book
At most of the trials of Concentration Camp Personnel from the Camp Commanders, Administration, Staff they were tried in the presence of the Allies including the Soviets, if any "British" citizens were found especially as the Ravensbruck Camp was liberated by the Russians, great political publicity attention would have been generated at the time by Uncle Joe Stalin, and especially immediate post WW2.
Do you not also consider it strange that the British tracked down all male members of the British Free Corps and interrogated them, placed them on trial. and handed down prison sentences to those found guilty of helping the enemy, so what possible reason could they have for hiding the "British Women in the SS"??
Even more so, as among the thousands executed by the Germans at Ravensbrück were four female members of the British WWII organization Special Operations Executive:
and Violette Szabo,
as well as the Roman Catholic nun Élise Rivet,
Elisabeth de Rothschild,
Russian Orthodox nun St.Maria Skobtsova,
the 25-year-old French Princess Anne de Bauffremont-Courtenay,
and Olga Benário, wife of the Brazilian Communist leader Luís Carlos Prestes.
Besides the male Nazi administrators, the camp staff included over 150 female SS guards assigned to oversee the prisoners.
Ravensbrück served as a training camp for over 4,000 female overseers. The technical term for a female guard in a Nazi camp was an Aufseherin. The women either stayed in the camp or eventually served in other camps. The female chief overseers (Oberaufseherinnen) in Ravensbrück were:
* May 1939-June 1942: Johanna Langefeld, with deputy wardress Emma Zimmer.
* June 1942-October 1942: Maria Mandel, with deputy wardress Emma Zimmer.
* October 1942-April 1943: Johanna Langefeld returned, with deputy wardress.
Margarete Gallinat (who later served as head wardress at Vught).
* December 1943-December 1944 Anna-Klein Plaubel, with deputy wardress
* December 1944-April 1945 Luise Brunner, with deputy wardress Dorothea Binz.
Later, several women were head female guards at the same time:
* 1944: Kaethe Hoern.
* 1944: Hildegard Neumann.
* 1944: Else Weber.
Most of these women went on to serve as chief wardresses in other camps. Other high ranking SS women included Greta Boesel, Margot Dreschel, Elisabeth Kammer, and head wardress at the Uckermark death complex of Ravensbrück was Ruth Closius (January 1945-March 1945).
The treatment by the S.S. women in Ravensbrück was normally brutal. Elfriede Muller, an SS Aufseherin in the camp was so harsh that the prisoners nicknamed her "The Beast of Ravensbrück."
In 1973 the United States government extradited Hermine Braunsteiner, for trial in Germany for war crimes.
In 2006 the United States government expelled Elfriede Rinkel, an 84 year-old woman who had resided in San Francisco since 1959. It was discovered that she had been a guard at Ravensbrück from 1944 to 1945.
Renewed attention and interest in the camp came about following the Düsseldorf War Crimes Trials, or the Majdanek Trial, which began in 1976.
Amongst the most notorious of those placed on trial was a guard supervisor at Ravensbrück, Hermine Braunsteiner, who had been tracked down by the famous Nazi-hunter, Simon Wiesenthal.
Numerous witnesses from Ravensbrück identified her as the pale, blue-eyed, six-foot tall blonde, called "The Stomping Mare" because of her penchant for killing children by trampling them, often in front of their mothers.
In 1981, the then 61-year-old woman was sentenced to life imprisonment for numerous child murders and other brutal crimes. Other guards were tried at the Auschwitz Trial, Belsen Trial, Ravensbrück Trials or in individual trials:
* Erika Bergmann.
* Margarete Bisaecke.
* Juana Bormann.
* Herta Bothe.
* Therese Brandl.
* Herta Ehlert.
* Wilma Fath.
* Irma Grese.
* Ruth Hildner.
* Ulla Erna Frieda Juerss.
* Elisabeth Lupka.
* Elfriede Mohnecke.
* Margarete Rabe.
* Elisabeth Volkenrath.
* Emma Zimmer.
These were a few of the guards tried for war crimes at Ravensbrück, and at other camps at which they served.
Information on these guards, with the exceptions of Suze Arts and Elisabeth Lupka, was obtained from Daniel Patrick Brown's book, THE CAMP WOMEN: The Female Auxiliaries Who Assisted the SS in Running the Concentration Camp System.
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: Ferdinand April 05, 2008 12:14 pm|
| hi kevin
the pictures that i've posted are from internet research, and i had them saved to my computer for some time.
this are, if you look carrefully is for members of ss coming from romania
regarding dr klein.....his number at the trial of bergen belsen was nr 2, no 1 was Commandant Josef Kramer....they were both hanged on 13 dec 1945.
regarding victor capesius, i did not said that he created cyklon b gas, but he was the right hand of mengele.---source-----frankfurt nazi trial documentary----witness from camp said that he was selecting twins for mengele.
i had in my family a waffen ss member, alex can post the picture with him.
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger April 06, 2008 07:26 pm|
| Hallo seeker,
when posting, pictures and information its up to the poster to make it clear what he is posting, I know English is not your first language but there are some very basic rules that need to be followed, and I would be glad to help if you require it.
makes very little sense because of the poor grammar and punctuation:
Victor Capesius, all names in english are written with a Capital letter at the start.
Born in: Miercurea Sibiului*.
He was a Bayern Company" sales representative.
Later, he became a S.S. officer, and the right-hand (man) of Dr. Joseph Mengele.
Auschwitz Pharmacist, responsible for making Zyklon-B gas.**
* = two words, do the words mean he was born in Miercure near Sibiu?? or the two words are the same location, information not very clear to a none Romanian person.
** more confusion here, as with the way it is written its unclear who you claim was the Auschwitz Pharmacist, Mengele or Victor Capesius, and who was responsible for developing the Zyklon-B gas.
Which is totally incorrect if you care to read the following:
Ironically, Zyklon B was originally developed as a pesticide by Fritz Haber, a German Jew who emigrated in 1933. It was first produced in World War I by TASCH (Technischer Ausschuss für Schädlingsbekämpfung, or Technical Committee for Pest Control) as a delousing agent.
Out of TASCH emerged DEGESCH (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung mbH, or German Corporation for Pest Control), which played a key role in the manufacturing of Zyklon B in World War II.
Many German companies had a stake in DEGESCH, but all eventually sold their shares to the chemical giant Degussa in the early 1920s. Degussa developed the process to manufacture Zyklon B in "crystals" (actually silica-gell absorbent chunks), as it was used during World War II.
To raise capital, Degussa split its controlling interest of DEGESCH with IG Farben in 1930: both companies held a 42.5% share in DEGESCH, with the remaining 15% held by the Th. Goldschmidt AG of Essen.
DEGESCH's role at this point was limited to acquiring patents and intellectual properties: it did not itself produce Zyklon B. The manufacture of Zyklon B was handled by the Dessauer Werke für Zucker and Chemische Werke, which acquired the stabilizer from IG Farben, the warning agent from Schering AG and the prussic acid from Dessauer Schlempe and assembled them into the final product.
This company extracted prussic acid from the waste products of the sugar beet refining process. From 1943 to 1945, the Kaliwerken, from the Czech town of Kolin, also supplied prussic acid to the Dessauer Werke. When Zyklon B became used in the gas chambers, the Nazis ordered the warning agent removed.
Upon production, Zyklon B was sold by Degesch to Degussa. To cut costs, Degussa sold the marketing rights of Zyklon B to two intermediaries: the Heerdt and Linger GmbH (Heli) and Tesch and Stabenow (Tesch und Stabenow, Internationale Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung m.b.H., or Testa) of Hamburg.
Both suppliers split their territory along the Elbe river, with Heli handling the clients to the west and Testa doing the same in the east.
Zyklon B is still in production in the Czech Republic in the factory Draslovka Kolín a.s. in the city Kolín under the tradename Uragan D2, sold for eradicating insects and small animals.
Kevin in Deva
|Posted by: Bernard Miclescu April 07, 2008 07:39 am|
I already read about this fact but i thought it was only a presumption. If possible, what is your source. Mine is one of the Sven Hassel novel.
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger April 07, 2008 09:46 am|
| Sven Hassel:lol: was a Danish Petty Criminal, and informer to the Danish version of the Gestapo, an outright liar, who never served in the German Armed Forces.
He never could explain how he came to be on various Fronts in the Eastern Campaign, France, Italy sometimes at the same time if you check the historical dates of his claims.
He is NOT what one could call a very reliable historical expert with his story lines or fantastic claims.
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: Ferdinand April 07, 2008 10:23 am|
first of all i want to thank you for the english grammar lessons. but you must consider this:
1. i'm sorry if my english is so bad
2. in all my posts i write with no Capital letters, i consider that the message is important not the grammar(also it's not disrespect from me)
3.place of birth is MIERCUREA SIBIULUI
4. i don't understand what is so unclear since i wrote that he was responsable with the gas. i allready gave answer that capesius WAS NOT the developer of cyclon b gas!!!!!!!!
i don't know if i understood correctly, you were in the army? if you were responsable with the auto park, does this mean that you have to build all the trucks and all the other machinery??
5. he was farmacist in birkenau until feb. '44, after this date he was "zusammenarbeitete "(co-worker) to dr. mengele, in the sellection for experiments.
6. and last..... search it on google as everybody does to check out the info's.
florin in brasov
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger April 07, 2008 04:07 pm|
By doing that, you increase the chance of spreading misinformation and misunderstanding, which is not the purpose of a Forum dedicated to understanding Military history.
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: Ferdinand April 07, 2008 04:31 pm|
| i made this post, for all those who have pics with romanians involved in nazi organizations, to post them and share the stories.
|Posted by: Florin April 08, 2008 02:52 am|
I owe you an answer. My source is Sven Hassel, too. It was in the novel "General SS".
I read everything translated in Romanian by him, and all his work was translated in Romanian, after 1990.
First of all, his books are novels, and not intended to be reference source for historians, or amateur historians. A novel written with narrator as personage is still a novel – there are so many available examples.
Now, considering the historic information included in his books... I would label it as a mixture of credible facts with non-credible facts. Many things mentioned by him obviously "do not fit in". Others make sense, when you read them.
I took the personal decision to consider the information about the Jewish grandmother of Reinhart Heidrich as something credible enough to include it in my angry message toward "seeker". If I would publish a book, I would think twice, but for "seeker" and for my angry message to him, it was acceptable.
I am wondering if Kevin read the novels of Sven Hassel. I carefully read the Internet link he presented.
The biggest problems of author Erik Haaest were not from his book against Sven Hassel, but because he tried to uncover the past of other people involved in collaboration with Nazi authorities.
The books of Sven Hassel may be a mixture of lies with true facts, but they are not a pro-Nazi propaganda, and their message is that war is a bad thing, in all its forms, and the author mentions the ugliness of war directly – it is not left for the reader to guess it.
These books are a stronger anti-war message than many other novels much better and much more famous, and that is what matters eventually. The more anti-war novels we have, the better, especially when we still have today nations ready to jump like a flock of sheep to invade other countries (war against Iraq, for example).
As a personal opinion, I think the abundance of information enough to fill 14 books was obtained from chatter with other war prisoners. Sven Hassel was war prisoner in 1945, and he later used for personal interest the stories heard from others from the prisoner camp. But you know how it goes with gossip and chatter – not everything you hear is true.
|Posted by: Ferdinand April 08, 2008 06:44 am|
i repeat the same message!
so please, if you have photos or details about romanians involved in nazi organisations, post them.
ps: florin! why are you so angry? supose i navigate trought jewish sites, my mistake!
do you have a good , reliable german site that recognize all? i would apreciate it.
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger April 08, 2008 07:20 am|
| I read the books both those attributed to Hassel back in the 1970's and the latter published ones that were "ghost-written" when the original authors story-lines had dried up, seems being married to a porn star and a soft lifestyle in Spain had affected his own creative juices so to speak.
But, no matter what way you dress it up its still fiction. Hassel has been outed for being a lying "Walter Mitty" fantasist, who decided to write pulp-fiction and make money out of a fictitious life.
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 08, 2008 10:06 am|
| I have some Romanian SS-manner fotos in my collection. Will post some fotos tonight.
|Posted by: Bernard Miclescu April 08, 2008 02:22 pm|
Thanks for the information.
I agree with you since i read several times most of Hassel's books.
Indeed he is an excellent writter-novelist. The actuality of his novels is still fresh.
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 08, 2008 08:06 pm|
| Gents, some Romanian SS-Manner:
1. First, the relative of user "seeker":
2. Next, an SS-mann from Medias:
More to come in a few days.
Source - My Collection.
|Posted by: Victor April 09, 2008 05:28 am|
|Those who posted photos are advised to provide exact sources for them ("the internet" is not good enough). You have one day before they are deleted. Thank you.|
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 09, 2008 06:25 am|
| From my point of view - the matters are very simple. The source is my Collection.
|Posted by: dead-cat April 09, 2008 09:01 am|
|especially Sven Hassel is hardly quotable for anything beyond entertainment.|
|Posted by: Ferdinand April 09, 2008 03:14 pm|
| wow alex!
the photos(i'm talking about the studios) with the ss man from medias are amazing!
thanks for youre post
|Posted by: Ferdinand June 01, 2008 01:22 pm|
| i was reading a book and found this man; i didn't knew that he was from romania.
arthur martin phelps
born in biertan/ 29 nov 1881, sibiu land
he was a staff officer of 5th ss panzer regiment, later become comender of ss regiment westland.
later he became the comander of 7th.SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division Prinz Eugen
it is supposed that he was killed by the russians in 21 september '44, somewhere near arad, during an air raid. he was trying to escape, and the soldiers did not know his true identity and value and shot him and other germans that were with him.
phelps inspecting an sdkfz(i bet is on romanian soil, just like in brasov-sibiu area)
source: photo cd(ebay) & wikipedia
|Posted by: Alexei2102 June 01, 2008 01:58 pm|
| Nope, that image was taken somewhere near Agram, I reckon. IMO not on Romanian soil. I recollect seeing on another forum, but now I haven't any clue. All that I know was the fact that it was a town near Agram, or something...
But, since we are talking about Prinz Eugen, please allow me to show you a nice portrait from my collection. A Romanian Volksdeutche, from Brasov, member of Prinz Eugen:
|Posted by: Ferdinand June 01, 2008 03:08 pm|
is this the guy that we talked about at mmn? the soldier from prejmer was in different unit?
thanks alex for sharing amazing materials
|Posted by: 21 inf June 01, 2008 08:02 pm|
Being born in 1881 in Sibiu area doesnt mean that he was born in Romania, actually he is NOT from Romania. He is a german (saxon?) ethnic, born in Austro-Hungarian empire. In 1881 Sibiu was not belonging to Romania, but to AH empire.
|Posted by: Ferdinand June 01, 2008 09:00 pm|
...you are wrong! he was born in the area of former kingdom "dacia"...daci+romans=romanians=> romanian soil. in 12th century came the invasion.
help me resolve this issue!
hitler was born in 1889 in braunau, a city in austro-hungarian empire. was he a hugarian?
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger June 02, 2008 05:38 am|
Your geography appears to be a little off,
Braunau am Inn was never Hungarian:-
Throughout its history it changed hands four times. It was Bavarian until 1779 and became an Austrian town under the terms of the treaty of Teschen, which settled the War of the Bavarian Succession.
As a major Bavarian city, the town played an outstanding role in the Bavarian uprising against the Austrian occupation during the War of the Spanish Succession, when it hosted the Braunau Parliament, a provisional Bavarian Parliament in 1705 headed by Georg Sebastian Plinganser born 1680 in Pfarrkirchen; and died 7 May 1738 in Augsburg.
Under the terms of the treaty of Pressburg, Braunau became Bavarian again in 1809. In 1816, during re-organisation of Europe after the Napoleonic Wars, Bavaria ceded the town to Austria and was compensated by the gain of Aschaffenburg. Braunau has been an Austrian city ever since.
Braunau has a remarkable 15th-century church with a 99m-high spire, the third highest in Austria. Its patron saint is St. Stephen. The remains of a castle house a museum and parts of the former town walls can still be seen. Another museum is housed in refurbished 18th century public baths.
Adolf Hitler was born in Braunau on 20 April 1889; but he and his family left Braunau and moved to Linz in 1894. Outside the building in which he was born is a memorial stone commemorating the victims of World War II. The stone is made of granite from the Mauthausen concentration camp. It states: Für Frieden, Freiheit und Demokratie. Nie wieder Faschismus. Millionen Tote mahnen, or "For Peace, Freedom and Democracy, never Again Fascism, Millions of Dead Warn (us)."
With regards the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Austria was the dominant and commanding section of the partnership.
In 1881 Sibiu, was under the control of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, there never was any legal papers issued with, to, or for "Dacians", so your argument falls flat with that reasoning, and legally that makes the man born in Sibiu, a Austro-Hungarian of German decent.
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: Dénes June 02, 2008 10:52 am|
AFAIK, after 1867, citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy had either Austrian or Hungarian citizenship, never "Austro-Hungarian". Therefore the legal term for a person being "Austro-Hungarian" is nonsense. The closest would be an Austrian or Hungarian citizen of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy of a particular ethnicity.
|Posted by: dead-cat June 03, 2008 09:09 am|
| my grandmother, born 1902, had "Austria-Hungary" written on her certificate of birth, there was no mentioning of Hungarian (or any other) citizenship on that piece of paper.
actually, Phleps held the rank of a Lt. General in the Romanian army during the interwar years.
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger June 03, 2008 10:22 am|
| Perhaps it would have been better for me to have written:
...legally that makes the man born in Sibiu, a Austro or Hungarian of German decent.
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: dead-cat June 03, 2008 02:06 pm|
| are we speaking about ethnicity? then the man was a transsylvanian saxon, therefore german.
citizenship? austro-hungarian at birth, later romanian. don't know if he bothered to ask for the german one, he would have probably received it without problems.
afaik his son used to be a medic in stuttgart.
|Posted by: Ferdinand June 03, 2008 06:37 pm|
well said my friend! thanks
|Posted by: Dénes June 03, 2008 07:34 pm|
That note in your Grandmother's birth certificate refers to the state she was born in, not her citizenship.
If you 'google' the terms, you will find several legally relevant sites where the fact that 'Austro-Hungarian' citizenship never existed. It was either Austrian, or Hungarian.
Subject: Austro-Hungarian citizenship
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:58:46 -0800
Technically you are right. Back in 1907 and until 1918 you were Austrian citizen or Hungarian citizen in the dual Monarchy of Austro-Hungary.
At the same time you were stating your ethnicity also. I was just assuming that Allison's ancestors were ethnic German (Donauschwaben), as she happened to be on this excellent list.
From: Carsten Laekamp
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:52 AM
Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] Ivanda village
Rosina Schmidt wrote:
> Your ancestors were ethnic Germans with the citizenship of Austro-Hungary.
Nope. Their citizenship was Hungarian, at least at the time when they
emigrated. There was no Austro-Hungarian citizenship then.
JSTOR: "They recall that up to 1867 only Austrian citizenship existed. ... [inhabitants] of the [Austro-Hungarian] Empire had either Austrian or Hungarian citizenship, never an Austro-Hungarian. ...
And so on...
Also, you're right, Dead-cat, citizenship and ethnicity, or nationality, should never be mixed. Those could be two very distinct notions, defining a person.
|Posted by: dead-cat June 03, 2008 08:38 pm|
| i stand corrected regarding the citizenship, however my first mention about the birth certificate was actually to express my surprise that i saw no specification "citizenship".
speculation: the relevance of this term might be higher today than it used to be in the 19th c, as the issue might have been a bit complicated. for example in case of a person born, let's say in Mainz during the 1850ies, which at that time belonged to the Grand Duchy of Hesse, whose "head of state" again would be the austrian emperor in vienna.
i'm a very casual contributor to that list too.
|Posted by: Ferdinand November 17, 2012 02:49 pm|
| watching a Holocaust video i came across this images of Bergen Belsen KZ . And i saw SS medic Fritz Klein (german ethnic from Codlea) carrying bodyies. Also notice the look of his former SS colegue....
From this movie i think are the images with him.
Later he introcude himself on camera!!
snap from this video
|Posted by: Florin November 18, 2012 08:24 am|
| The first line of this topic mentioned "guys from german nazi war machine were from romania".
"nazi war machine": this is a very general and wide subject.
Instead of considering all aspects of "nazi war machine", this topic plunged mostly into concentration camps.
I think the most important German from Romania involved into the "nazi war machine" was Hermann Oberth, the expert in rocket engines with liquid fuel.
He was born in Austria-Hungary, indeed (this matter was already addressed in this topic), but he lived 14 years of his life in Mediaş, AFTER Transylvania had become part of Romania. Between 1924 and 1938 he was teaching physics and mathematics at the Stephan Ludwig Roth High School (Mediaş, Romania).
|Posted by: Ferdinand November 18, 2012 05:57 pm|
Victor, can you modify the topic's title by adding"...from Romania". Thanks in advance!
I started this topic since i came accidentally to some infos about german ethnics from Romania that were involved in ww2 and their name have some echo. I didn't found info's about simple soldiers(german ethnics from RO) carrying grenades boxes...etc.
|Posted by: 21 inf November 18, 2012 09:41 pm|
|One of the sons of Hermann Oberth was killed on Eastern Front while he served in german army and one of his daughters died while working for german army in a chemistry laboratory in Wien.|
|Posted by: Florin November 19, 2012 06:24 am|
His daughter died because of an an accidental explosion at a liquid oxygen plant where she was in August 1944. Liquid oxygen was one of the two ingredients used by V-2, and V-2 was the project where Hermann Oberth joined to offer his expertise.
I am assuming that his daughter got that job due to his relations. Add to that that without the V-2 program there would be no need for liquid oxygen plants, and imagine how Hermann Oberth could feel about all this matter. He could feel responsible of the death of his own child.