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Posted by: Alexandru H. March 17, 2005 07:32 am
QUOTE
Hitler 'tested small atom bomb' 
By Ray Furlong
BBC News, Berlin 



Sceptics agree the book sheds new light on Nazi nuclear experiments
A German historian has claimed in a new book presented on Monday that Nazi scientists successfully tested a tactical nuclear weapon in the last months of World War II.

Rainer Karlsch said that new research in Soviet and also Western archives, along with measurements carried out at one of the test sites, provided evidence for the existence of the weapon.

"The important thing in my book is the finding that the Germans had an atomic reactor near Berlin which was running for a short while, perhaps some days or weeks," he told the BBC.

"The second important finding was the atomic tests carried out in Thuringia and on the Baltic Sea."

Mr Karlsch describes what the Germans had as a "hybrid tactical nuclear weapon" much smaller than those dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.


'Bright light'

He said the last test, carried out in Thuringia on 3 March 1945, destroyed an area of about 500 sq m - killing several hundred prisoners of war and concentration camp inmates.

The weapons were never used because they were not yet ready for mass production. There were also problems with delivery and detonation systems.

  Karlsch has done us a service in showing that German research into uranium went further than we'd thought... but there was not a German atom bomb

Michael Schaaf, German physicist
"We haven't heard about this before because only small groups of scientists were involved, and a lot of the documents were classified after they were captured by the Allies," said Karlsch.

"I found documents in Russian and Western archives, as well as in private German ones."

One of these is a memo from a Russian spy, brought to the attention of Stalin just days after the last test. It cites "reliable sources" as reporting "two huge explosions" on the night of 3 March.

Karlsch also cites German eyewitnesses as reporting light so bright that for a second it was possible to read a newspaper, accompanied by a sudden blast of wind.

The eyewitnesses, who were interviewed on the subject by the East German authorities in the early 1960s, also said they suffered nose-bleeds, headaches, and nausea for days afterwards.

Karlsch also pointed to measurements carried out recently at the test site that found radioactive isotopes.

Scepticism

His book has provoked huge interest in Germany, but also scepticism.


The bomb was much smaller than the weapon dropped on Hiroshima
It has been common knowledge for decades that the Nazis carried out atomic experiments, but it has been widely believed they were far from developing an atomic bomb.

"The eyewitnesses he puts forward are either unreliable or they are not reporting first-hand information; allegedly key documents can be interpreted in various ways," said the influential news weekly Der Spiegel.


"Karlsch displays a catastrophic lack of understanding of physics," wrote physicist Michael Schaaf, author of a previous book about Nazi atomic experiments, in the Berliner Zeitung newspaper.

"Karlsch has done us a service in showing that German research into uranium went further than we'd thought up till now. But there was not a German atom bomb," he added.

It has also been pointed out that the United States employed thousands of scientists and invested billions of dollars in the Manhattan Project, while Germany's "dirty bomb" was allegedly the work of a few dozen top scientists who wanted to change the course of the war.


Karlsch himself acknowledged that he lacked absolute proof for his claims, and said he hoped his book would provoke further research.

But in a press statement for the book launch, he is defiant.

"It's clear there was no master plan for developing atom bombs. But it's also clear the Germans were the first to make atomic energy useable, and that at the end of this development was a successful test of a tactical nuclear weapon."



From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4348497.stm

Posted by: cipiamon March 17, 2005 11:24 am
I heard about this verry controversated book.

But in my opinion if they wanned to use atomic weppons the wold it used it even it reqaired sinucide operations.

Posted by: C-2 March 17, 2005 09:01 pm
Not long before the end of the third reich, the Germans sent U-234 loaded with Uranium to Japan in order to help them with a nuclear program.
U 234 never got to japan,but surrended to the Americans(the two Japaneese oficers comited suicide ).
The Americans were glad about the Uraniumfound on bord and it was sent to the Menhatten project-and helped to make the Atomic bomb that was droped on Hiroshima.
cinic isn't it?

Posted by: Indrid March 19, 2005 07:02 am
QUOTE (C-2 @ Mar 17 2005, 11:01 PM)
Not long before the end of the third reich, the Germans sent U-234 loaded with Uranium to Japan in order to help them with a nuclear program.
U 234 never got to japan,but surrended to the Americans(the two Japaneese oficers comited suicide ).
The Americans were glad about the Uraniumfound on bord and it was sent to the Menhatten project-and helped to make the Atomic bomb that was droped on Hiroshima.
cinic isn't it?

cinic cinic...but is it true? and if he had it, why not use it then?

Posted by: Florin March 19, 2005 08:08 pm
QUOTE (Indrid @ Mar 19 2005, 02:02 AM)
QUOTE (C-2 @ Mar 17 2005, 11:01 PM)
...............
The Americans were glad about the Uraniumfound on bord and it was sent to the Menhatten project-and helped to make the Atomic bomb that was droped on Hiroshima.
cinic isn't it?

cinic cinic...but is it true? and if he had it, why not use it then?

It is a truth supported by many proofs, but one sure thing is that the 500 kg of Uranium Oxide could provide just a small percent of the raw material needed for the American bombs as they were in 1945. This is the real unclear part: if the refined product from the German Uranium Oxide was really a part of the bombs dropped in Japan, or just used for the following bombs.

Anyway, this truth is more solid than the subject we discuss here.
Something I don't understand:
Considering how desperate was the military situation of Germany in the spring of 1945, why they wasted the chance given by this test? They should drop the bomb somewhere on the Western Front, over the Allied troops, and then try to bargain / negotiate by claiming (i.e. lying) that there are many others available.
(Indrid also made a similar statement, in less words.)

The argument that there were no bombers available does not stand. There were German bombers in the skies as late as May 8, 1945. (And maybe even on May 9, 1945.)

The sad thing is that in the spring of 1945 Germany was in such a situation that whatever she could try, there was no way out. A resonable leadership should surrender after the failure of the Battle of the Bulge (the German offensive in Ardennes).

Posted by: Florin March 19, 2005 08:27 pm
The reactor functioning near Berlin is a matter known for decades. There is a photo with it in the book "The history of the atomic bomb", written in the 70's by Castelano Gigante.
Returning to the article quoted by Alexandru, 500 square meters means a square with an edge of 22.36 meters, or a circle with the diameter of 25.23 meters. You can do more damage with a classical bomb, even with one to be lifted by a twin engine WWII bomber.

Something which so many people didn't / don't know (including Isaac Asimov, who made one character to hide an atomic bomb in the mouth, under his tongue, in the "Foundation" series of novels) is that you cannot make an atomic bomb as little as you want. You cannot make an atomic bomb to develop the equivalent of a one ton classical bomb, for example. Somebody explained to me once upon a time that at least about 2 kg of Uranium / equivalent material are needed to produce the fission. This means the "smallest" nuke still have the equivalent effect of 1000 tons of TNT or more.

Posted by: Indrid March 20, 2005 07:18 am
QUOTE (Florin @ Mar 19 2005, 10:27 PM)
The reactor functioning near Berlin is a matter known for decades. There is a photo with it in the book "The history of the atomic bomb", written in the 70's by Castelano Gigante.
Returning to the article quoted by Alexandru, 500 square meters means a square with an edge of 22.36 meters, or a circle with the diameter of 25.23 meters. You can do more damage with a classical bomb, even with one to be lifted by a twin engine WWII bomber.

Something which so many people didn't / don't know (including Isaac Asimov, who made one character to hide an atomic bomb in the mouth, under his tongue, in the "Foundation" series of novels) is that you cannot make an atomic bomb as little as you want. You cannot make an atomic bomb to develop the equivalent of a one ton classical bomb, for example. Somebody explained to me once upon a time that at least about 2 kg of Uranium / equivalent material are needed to produce the fission. This means the "smallest" nuke still have the equivalent effect of 1000 or more kg of TNT.

ok, but i still doubt that there would have been lift problems....so if they had it, once again, why not use it?

Posted by: johnny_bi March 20, 2005 11:42 am
QUOTE
Somebody explained to me once upon a time that at least about 2 kg of Uranium / equivalent material are needed to produce the fission. This means the "smallest" nuke still have the equivalent effect of 1000 or more kg of TNT.


So, no nuclear grenades? sad.gif

Posted by: Alexandru H. March 20, 2005 11:50 am
I don't know "why he did not use it". But that is not an argument, since we are discussing whether he had it or not, not if he used it. Not every bomb is destined to explode.

Besides, I don't think Hitler was very much interested in the nuclear field. Sure, he loved big stuff, but I suspect he relied too much on his WW1 experience in discussing priorities... Anyway, I don't think Hitler had a nuclear bomb but Germany certainly was more advanced in the field than history tells us...

Posted by: Florin March 20, 2005 10:07 pm
QUOTE (Alexandru H. @ Mar 20 2005, 06:50 AM)
............................................
Besides, I don't think Hitler was very much interested in the nuclear field. Sure, he loved big stuff, but I suspect he relied too much on his WW1 experience in discussing priorities..........

Sometime during 1942, before Stalingrad and El Alamein, Hitler had a meeting with a whole bunch of German scientists from various fields, and he guaranteed full support for developing any idea which may become a weapon, however unconventional.

The result was tens and tens of projects and prototypes, but just few reached the series production, and of course when it was too late.

The question is why the Germans lost 3 precious years until they "woke up" to realize that the war cannot be won with conventional weaponry. There were no big leaps in basic physics, chemistry and mathematics from 1939 to 1942, and the scientists and engineers were the same guys, so all that "weirdo" could be researched 3 years earlier, and be ready for series production by the end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944.

Posted by: Florin March 20, 2005 10:22 pm
QUOTE (johnny_bi @ Mar 20 2005, 06:42 AM)
QUOTE
Somebody explained to me once upon a time that at least about 2 kg of Uranium / equivalent material are needed to produce the fission. This means the "smallest" nuke still have the equivalent effect of 1000 tons of TNT or more .


So, no nuclear grenades? sad.gif

No. But they built in the 50's or 60's nuclear mines. Yes, like the mines buried in the ground, to walk on them. But I don't know what was the point, because even when you roll over a classical mine, you get anyway a fast trip to paradise (or hell).

Posted by: Indrid March 21, 2005 07:16 am
QUOTE (Florin @ Mar 21 2005, 12:22 AM)
QUOTE (johnny_bi @ Mar 20 2005, 06:42 AM)
QUOTE
Somebody explained to me once upon a time that at least about 2 kg of Uranium / equivalent material are needed to produce the fission. This means the "smallest" nuke still have the equivalent effect of 1000 tons of TNT or more .


So, no nuclear grenades? sad.gif

No. But they built in the 50's or 60's nuclear mines. Yes, like the mines buried in the ground, to walk on them. But I don't know what was the point, because even when you roll over a classical mine, you get anyway a fast trip to paradise (or hell).

well maybe the purpose was to wipe out an entire natallion or more, rather than just maim one and make the others careful....

Posted by: tomcat1974 March 21, 2005 12:59 pm
Actuly the information about the size of a nuclear weapon is not accurate.
It is considered that now the smalest tactical Nuke firing weapon is the 152-155mm Howitzer. US developed even a smaller one Davy Crocket rocket projectile . it was a small Rocket 120mm i think..with a power of up to 50t.

Posted by: Indrid March 22, 2005 07:38 am
QUOTE (tomcat1974 @ Mar 21 2005, 02:59 PM)
Actuly the information about the size of a nuclear weapon is not accurate.
It is considered that now the smalest tactical Nuke firing weapon is the 152-155mm Howitzer. US developed even a smaller one Davy Crocket rocket projectile . it was a small Rocket 120mm i think..with a power of up to 50t.

oh, and that is small? blink.gif

Posted by: tomcat1974 March 22, 2005 08:20 am
Sory I was wrong about Davy Crokett M-388 ... a little wink.gif

here is a picture:
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/W54davy2.jpg Copyright nuclearweaponarchive.org

The warhead is Mk54.It had 2 yelds 10T and 20T ..Lenght 10.75 " x Width 17.6".
there was another version of it Atomic Demolition Warhead .Same warhead but with a selectable yield from 10T to 1KT. This where manufacture between 1961 and 1965.

Posted by: Curioso March 22, 2005 11:14 am
QUOTE (Florin @ Mar 19 2005, 08:08 PM)
Something I don't understand:
Considering how desperate was the military situation of Germany in the spring of 1945, why they wasted the chance given by this test?


Because having a few tons of non-enriched uranium ore does not equate with having a functioning nuclear bomb.

Posted by: tomcat1974 April 08, 2005 07:51 am
http://www.guntruck.com/DavyCrockett.html

HERE a link to Davy CrocketT Nuclear Projectile. smile.gif a little bit late.

Posted by: Carol I June 01, 2005 08:24 pm
BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4598955.stm

user posted image

Posted by: Carol I June 01, 2005 08:28 pm
The original article in Physics World: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/18/6/3/1

Posted by: cipiamon June 01, 2005 09:56 pm
Why Hitler stoped the nucler program in the middle of the war will remain a mystery.

Posted by: Indrid June 02, 2005 04:30 am
maybe he realised how much of a destruction that would entail...


laugh.gif

or maybe he did not posess the capabilities , I.E. - einstein, oppenheimer,...

Posted by: cipiamon June 02, 2005 07:48 am
rolleyes.gif
I heard Hitler engeniers needed about only 10% from the capital the allied invested in the developing the nuclear bomb.

After all, his weppons were far more better tongue.gif

Posted by: sid guttridge June 02, 2005 11:13 am
Hi Guys,

The German authorities weren't really aware of the potential of an atomic bomb until late 1941 when General Fromm, who, amongst other things, had responsibility for weapons development, was informed. He told the new armaments minister, Albert Speer, in early 1942. In the spring of 1942 they offered to put the necessary material and manpower resources behind the development of nuclear weapons. However, the German nuclear scientific community (much reduced by the forced exile of its many pre-war Jewish scientists) was too small to make rapid progress. As it would apparently take years longer to develop an atom bomb than the war was likely to last (or Germany could hold out) the project was dropped as a priority project in mid 1942 as of no immediate use.

When the atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima in August 1945, many of the leading German nuclear scientists were in Anglo-American custody in England. Their room had microphones planted to listen in on and record their conversation. When they heard that the Americans had dropped the atom bomb on Hiroshima, they were astounded, because they did not think it possible that even with their greater industrial power it was possible for the Americans to have any operational as early as 1945.

I would treat this new book suggesting that the Germans were well advanced in producing nuclear weapons by 1945 with extreme scepticism until other researchers have checked out its sources.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Kiwi December 30, 2008 11:02 am
Sure Sid and those same hidden microphones picked up Diebner and Heisenberg talking about the probability of hidden microphones listening to their conversations before the bombing of Hiroshima, after which Heisenberg hammed it up by pretending he did not understand about nuclear warheads and wasn't really a Nazi supporter.

Trouble is his wartime letters to Niels Bohr published after the war make out that heisenberg was a liar at Farm Hall and during the war had been an ardent Nazi seeking to develop an A-bomb.

When you write that the Nazis lacked brilliant nuclear scientists then you've obviously never heard of Kurt Deibner (calculated warhead's critical mass for a Uranium A-bomb), Paul Harteck (developed uranium centrifuges), Erich Bagge (invented the Uranium centrifuge in 1942), Max von Laue, Paul von Weisecker, Max von Ardenne, Fritz Houtermanns (invented the plutonium A-bomb), Prof Adam Schintlemeister, Walther Gerlach and others ?

The British penetrated the Nazi nuclear projects through Operation Stockholm and were able to bomb every nuclear laboratory the Germans created.

By the time Diebner's HWA project was taken over by the SS in July 1944 it was already too late even though a massive centrifuge complex was built underground in Czechoslovakia. The nazis knew how to enrich uranium to make bombs. they simply ran out of time.

Dornberger was overheard at an internment camp describing how he and Werner von Braun visited Lisbon for secret talks about the surrender of Germany's scientists to the Americans. Those talks evolved into secret surrender negotiations with the SS later named Operation Sunrise.

Hitler never abandoned his dream of using nuclear weapons and is even recorded by Dornberger after the war interned at CSDIC camp 11 referring to the use of nuclear warheads on the V-2 rocket.

Karlsch may have drawn some wrong conclusions but he has made a magnificent contribution to expanding our overall knowledge. Something which would not arise with a more cautious conservative approach.

It takes a bit of courage to try out new theories and research them. Thank you herr Karlsch.

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