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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > WW2 in General > Abwehr vs. NKVD|
|Posted by: ^All^ October 23, 2004 05:53 pm|
|Which one do you think was the best?|
|Posted by: Iamandi October 24, 2004 12:11 pm|
Abwehr it was a "spy service", and NKVD was a "politicaly police" (*) - represion service... Maybe Abwehr vs. GRU is more like.
|Posted by: ^All^ October 24, 2004 04:40 pm|
|thanks, but the Abwehr was the Werhmachts Inteligence service, and I've read that a section in the NKVD was doing the same thing as Abwehr.|
|Posted by: GEKADOS_SS November 02, 2004 02:48 pm|
| Abwehr(Amt Auslandsnachrichten Abwehr)-was repr. all the espionage-counter-espionage services of the army.At the begining of war the Abwehr was counting 15.000 titular agents dispersed in more then 500 areas of the world,and 60.000 informers.
-So they were very good informed -
N.K.V.D.-Norodnii Komisariat Vnuterih Del(The Peoples Commissary for Domestic Affaires)
-So N.K.V.D. and Abwehr can't be compared cause the line of activity was different-
NKVD's roll changed in a different direction during the war.They were left alone,to do whatever possible to keep the russian pessents under control,and to punish every traitor how helped the nazzi's.So they gained a very bad reputation soon;they were often compared with the german SS trups for their cruelty.
The NKVD soliders and the Komissars of Propaganda were the most hated russian soliders by the germans.
"The Victory is salvation!"
|Posted by: udar November 24, 2004 01:12 pm|
|I think both services(Abwher and NKVD/KGB-GRU)was very close as eficiencie.Abwher action quite well against soviets before the begining the war,and in the first part(with Fremde Heree Ost part of Abwhere,lead by gen.Reinhard Gelhen)and against allies(take the D-Day plan from UK embassy from Turkey).Russian intelligence was to effective to:have couple strong spy agents in Germany(red chappele and Lucy organization),and especially in western allies countries(both UK and USA),from where stoll the atomic bomb secret,and other agents from that period(Harolld Philby for example)ocuppied in cold war period high function in secret services or scientific organizations.I believe russian was first and germans very close.British was next,but far from this two.|
|Posted by: udar November 25, 2004 12:27 pm|
|And,sorry i forgotten one of the best spy of russians,Richard Sorge.Thanks to him and the info who give to GRU,SU can bring a lot of siberian division in defence of Moscow,defeate the germans and change probably the entire curs of eastern war.|
|Posted by: ^All^ January 23, 2005 09:34 pm|
Corect! But the russians used those divisions at Stalingrad. From what I know the Japanese had to strike the SU's south border at the same time the Germans launched their atack on Stalingrad.
***edited by admin***
|Posted by: Victor January 23, 2005 10:15 pm|
|^All^, do not use deragatory terms such as Japs or Nips.|
|Posted by: ^All^ January 24, 2005 05:56 pm|
|K, sorry I didn't knew.|
|Posted by: Petre December 03, 2014 06:13 pm|
| From the book of V.Udylov "The Counterspy's notes"
The soviet military counterintelligence already knew about the existence in Romania of secret deposits with weapons, explosives and radios.
The counterintelligence of 3rd. Ukrainean Front, some time ago, had managed to capture the deputy chief of Abwehrgruppe 201, lieutenant Bidermann.
Some short fragments from his interogatory :
Q : In the last statement you sayed that, as official member of «Abwehr-2», you had mission to set up some special deposits in the romanian teritory. Specyfi for us, what was stored there and with what purposes they were set up ?
A : Following the Germany defeat in winter 1943–1944, the political situation in Romania, an ally of Germany, became instable. It became evident, Antonescu was basing just on an insignificant minority. The germans were expecting, at the moment when the mil.actions reach the romanian teritory, this will try to get out of war from the german side.
I dont know what sources of «Abwehr-2» pointed that british agents from «Intelligence Service» and «Secret Service» had activated in Romania a subversive movement against the germans and were conducting its work for prepairing a coup. For this reason, «Abwehr-2» activated its own actions against Romania, mainly to set up stealthly some deposits whit weapons on the romanian teritory and to form clandestine groups, in case if Romania tryes to get out of war, to initiate an internal uprising.
Me, together with leut. Ponter and leut. Kurtius, were sent in Muntenia region to a amenaja the deposits. To travel unimpeded by country I had a document showing I am diplomatic courier of the embassy…
They sent for me, from Wien in Romania, 600 automatics with 12 cartridge boxes. In the meantime, Ponter set up three deposits where the weapons were put.
In May, the Red Army units reached Romania, thats why «Abwehr-2» was taken to create conditions for actions of the diversion groups, in case of a retreat. The purpose of the deposits changed. They were serving now to arm the diversionist groups who will acţiona in Romania after the retreat of the german troops. So, the deposits were completed with explosives and other materials. In three deposits, near weapons and amunitions, they put 40 boxes with mines, three boxex with infernal devices and some radios.
Q : Where are the places of each deposit you pointed ?
A : One deposit was amenajat aprox. at kilo 132 on the road Bucarest to Brăila; an other is north-west of Buzău and the third is in the area Turnu-Roşu Pass (the place where Olt river cross through Carpaţi Mts.).
The counterintelligence workers had checked what Bidermann pointed and seeing those were true, they confiscated by night the content of the deposits, placing nearby hidden surveillance posts. The «Ceka-men» supposed, sooner or later some people will come at this deposits of weapons and amunitions. They were right. Night of nov. 19-20, 1944 at two deposits they came some people. But the soviet soldiers, being as guards in these sectors, opened fire too soon; it followed a shooout. But, thats the war, necunoscuţii had their esscort, who started shooting from behind to the soviet soldiers, the people who came managed to disappear and at the fight place they remined only the shovels. There was reason to think those people were of Petraşcu-Schmidt Group.
|Posted by: Florin December 04, 2014 03:30 am|
Can you detail a little about the "Petraşcu-Schmidt Group" ?
I do not remember to be mentioned before on this website.
|Posted by: Petre December 04, 2014 01:03 pm|
| It is the author's style, it was not really a group
|Posted by: Florin December 05, 2014 01:39 am|
| When the Cold War started, in late 1940's, the U.S. suddenly realized that her network of spies in the countries of the Warsaw Pact was non-existent . . . zero !
So they enlisted former leaders of Abwehr and SD, employing them in the American OSS.
These "recruits" reactivated their former networks, for their new master.
That included Romania, where the German minority survived as non-displaced ethnic group (compared with Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia).
Retirement was not an option - for the former German agents that wanted to quit, other people were sent under disguised reasons just to kill them.
|Posted by: Dénes December 05, 2014 07:01 am|
You're kidding, right? Thousands of German ethnics - men, women, even teenage ones - were rounded up post war and taken to the Soviet Union for hard labour. Others were persecuted by Rumanian authorities. Many changed their names to avoid unwanted attention. And so on.
DeadCat, whom I have not seen here for long, perhaps can tell more.
|Posted by: Petre December 05, 2014 12:34 pm|
Again the book :
|Posted by: Florin December 05, 2014 05:53 pm|
No, I am serious.
This was discussed before in detail under this website, so I will remind only the essentials:
Yes, 100,000 Germans were sent to Soviet Union for forced labor, and yes a part of them never returned (death being one of the reasons).
But the total of German population in Romania was much more - about 800,000 thousand.
I have to check if you want a precise number.
So, in short form: up to 12.5 percent of the German population living in Romania was sent to forced labor in USSR, and a part of this 12.5 percent never returned to their homes/families.
Compare this with the countries that I have mentioned (Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia) were 100 percent (ALL) of the population was forcefully sent to Germany or Austria, with their belongings being confiscated.
Regarding persecutions against some Germans that never left to USSR for forced labor, it is a fact, but remember that in the same span of time even more Romanians were subject to the same kind of persecutions. You cannot claim that the majority (the Romanians) were left untouched while some Germans were persecuted.
If you feel that there is a problem in my logic, you are welcome to reply.
|Posted by: Dénes December 05, 2014 08:32 pm|
What year is this related to? What is your source, please?
|Posted by: Florin December 06, 2014 08:08 pm|
The most convenient (easy) for me is to present this link:
where is stated from the beginning that: "786,000 of Germans in interwar Romania in 1939 "
I can also spend some time to find and search a Romanian geographical atlas printed in 1934 or 1935, inherited from my grandparents.
However, for this second option:
1. All available data is from 1933 or earlier. This means a number smaller than the number reached by the same ethnic group 11 years later. I am aware that there was a war in that time span of 11 years, but I still think that there were more Germans in Romania in 1944 than in 1933 or few years earlier.
2. That geographic atlas is a Romanian print - you may object for its accuracy.
|Posted by: Dénes December 07, 2014 08:11 am|
This is getting off topic. However, let me add just a few words:
1, If in 1933 there were 786.000 Germans, for sure there were much less after the war. I also checked Wikipedia (Rumanian version) and found this: 1948–343.913.
Therefore, I would say, in 1945 there were less than a half mission ethnic Germans left in Rumania.
2, I don't understand your second statement. Why would I object to a Rumanian edition of the inter-war geographical atlas? At that point, only the Rumanian censuses can give official data on the ethnic mosaic of the population in 'Greater Rumania'. We can debate how close to the actual truth those figures are, but that's a different story.
|Posted by: Florin December 08, 2014 03:31 am|
The number you are offering, 343.913 in 1948, worth a search about how did this happen. Things are not as simple as to claim that the downfall in numbers is solely due to a forced expatriation by Romanian authorities.
Many people left to Germany on their own will in the years when Germany was occupying the whole Europe and Romania was in the Axis. Hermann Oberth may be the most famous case. He took his family with him, too.
Tens of thousands of Germans of Transylvania were either volunteers in the armies of The Third Reich, either enlisted in the Romanian Army, either in the Hungarian Army. It may sound as an irony, but one of the results of participating to a war is dying.
Other Germans run in 1944 when the frontline moved to Transylvania.
Then came Stalin's request for 100,000 Romanian workers to work in the Soviet factories, fended off by the leadership of Romania by sending instead 100,000 Germans.
Also, if in the census of 1948 some Germans declared themselves as Romanians or Hungarians because this way they felt more secure, it is a good point to ask why they felt more secure this way, but they were still living in Romania and later they may declared themselves Germans again.
This subject worth research from historians, to see all of the reasons that combined into a drop from 786.000 in 1939 to an official census of 343.913 in 1948.
Still is not a completely wiped out German population, as in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
Out of topic, while the Germans were in Transylvania for almost 1000 years and they were asked to come and settle by the Magyar kings, the Germans forced out of Poland and Czechoslovakia were living there since the beginnings of the written history, i.e. before the rise of the Roman Empire.
Regarding my geographical atlas, one day I may try some scans.
It is more than interesting, it is fascinating.
|Posted by: ionionescu December 08, 2014 05:52 pm|
We all know Rumanian and specially 'Greater Rumania' sources cant be trusted, therefore only Hungayrian ones should be cited in this debate.
|Posted by: Dénes December 08, 2014 06:35 pm|
I don't know what do you mean by 'Hungayrian', and whom do you want to provoke here. I suggest you if you don't have any meaningful to add to this discussion, then just don't add anything, do not attempt to flame this thread. Thank you.
|Posted by: ionionescu December 08, 2014 06:57 pm|
|Ah! Darn autocorrect ... I didn't mean to write Hun-GAY-rian but that's actually pretty funny LOL|
|Posted by: Petre January 10, 2015 07:37 pm|
| Source - Internet.
Russian book of Anatoly Tereschenko "The SMERSH Purgatory. The Stalin's «wolf-hounds»", 2011.
The romanian mil. inteligence agents.
Bringing Antonescu as prisonier.
|Posted by: dead-cat January 16, 2015 05:41 pm|
Firstly, the number 786.000 is for the Kingdom of Romania in the borders of 1939 and the 344.000 for the census of 1948, when most of the deportees were still in the Soviet Union and Romania had a different border.
Second, during ww2 cca 200.000 Bessarabian, Dobrujan and Bukovina Germans were resettled (treaty of 5. Sept. 1940) to Germany, mainly Warthegau.
During the war about 65.000 Germans served in the German armed forces, mainly Waffen SS. Casualties were 15.000 KIA and MIA. Also an undetermined number did flee from the approaching frontline and made it to germany, mostly from Banat. That combined with the birth drop accounts for the reduction from 786K to 343K.
The Chechoslovakian Republic deported the entire german population, just as Poland who had to move her border by 200km. Most Germans from Yugoslavia would flee during 1944-1945. Of those who did not, a large number died in concentration camps. Of those who survived, the overwhelming majority being permitted to leave for the newly created Federal Republic of Germany in an organized fashion, starting from 1948.
Romanians were presecuted because of their political allegiance or because they were wealthy, thus belonging to the burgeoisie. German (and other) minorities were persecuted additionaly because of their ethnicity.
|Posted by: Florin January 17, 2015 03:11 am|
| Hi "dead-cat",
You added some more specific data (sincerely welcomed), but other than what I am quoting next...
...your comments do not contradict what I wrote when I had answered to Dénes.
|Posted by: Petre February 19, 2015 07:32 pm|
| Another fragment found from the text written by Boris Sîromiatnikov
|Posted by: Petre September 28, 2015 05:37 pm|
| Upgrade to the text above, from a "full version" of the article.
It seems to me it was also a BBC interview vith the author...
The memories of Gen. Michael Belousov, noted by col. Boris Sîromiatnikov