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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Western Front (1944-1945) > Romanian Air Corps on the Western Front|
|Posted by: Agarici October 20, 2013 09:38 pm|
Romanian soundtrack and comments, unfortunatelly partly ideological and to be ignored.
|Posted by: Florin October 24, 2013 01:44 am|
|German airplanes working hard against Germany ...|
|Posted by: Dénes October 24, 2013 05:08 am|
| Most of which Rumania did not pay a cent for...
|Posted by: Florin October 24, 2013 01:35 pm|
The economic report filled in 1945 by the experts of the German Central Bank ("Reich ... something " ) concluded that the payment / debt balances between Romania and Germany, as of August 23, 1944, were roughly equal. Indeed, there was a slight plus from the German part (Romania owed a little bit), but not something unusual.
Their economic report covered all kinds of exchanges that occurred.
|Posted by: Agarici October 24, 2013 01:37 pm|
|"They" had payed pretty hard - with human lives, oil, grains, land (N-Western Transylvania), and bombs taken from the Western allies - since 1940 onwards. I think at any point in time "they" would gladly switch and payed the damned Reichsmarks for the machines, or choose not to purchase them at all...|
|Posted by: Florin October 24, 2013 01:37 pm|
The economic report filled in 1945 by the experts of the German Central Bank ("Reich.....??") concluded that the payment / debt balances between Romania and Germany, as of August 23, 1944, were roughly equal. Indeed, there was a slight plus from the German part (Romania owed a little bit), but not something unusual.
Their economic report covered all kinds of exchanges that occurred.
PLEASE DELETE - AGAIN A WEB MALFUNCTION RESULTED IN A REPEAT.
|Posted by: luciang October 24, 2013 02:31 pm|
| I am not a subject matter expert here but I would say that some common sense thinking could go like this: the german made airplanes that were owned by the romanian army after 23rd of August 1944 could belong into one of the following categories:
A. Airplanes that were commercially ordered by Romania from Germany.
B. Airplanes that were offered for free by Germany to its ally Romania as help in the war effort.
C. Airplanes captured by the romanian army after 23rd of August 1944.
I would say that only category B from above may be potentially considered as planes which were not payed for, isn't this correct ?
|Posted by: Florin October 24, 2013 04:58 pm|
|I think it was mentioned before under this website that most of the German airplanes captured by the Romanians in August 1944 were soon after that confiscated by Soviet Union.|
|Posted by: Radub October 24, 2013 06:29 pm|
Do you have more information about this?
|Posted by: luciang October 24, 2013 07:21 pm|
| No, as I said I am not a subject matter expert ; I only tried to approach as objective as possible this matter.
I personally suppose that there weren't too many planes given "for free" by Germany to Romania.
|Posted by: Dénes October 25, 2013 05:53 am|
| The entire fleet of warplanes of Corpul 1 aerian român was German property, lent to the Rumanians for front use only. These formed the bulk of aircraft that went to war against Germany and, later, Hungary.
|Posted by: Florin October 25, 2013 06:12 am|
Something that became obvious to Hitler by 1944, because it was proved again and again with the Romanian, Finnish and Hungarian armies: regardless of how brave the allied soldiers were fighting for you, if you did not provide weaponry for them, their bravery did not matter too much.
Following this logic, not only Romania received more German weaponry in the first half of 1944, but also Finland and Hungary. Like Romania, after August 1944 Finland used against Germany what was left of that weaponry.
And the airplanes given "to the Rumanians for front use only" were used on the front until May 1945, right ?
"the Rumanians" did not try other usage for them.
|Posted by: Dénes October 25, 2013 10:04 am|
I don't believe the Germans, i.e. their former comrades in arms, were laughing at this matter (after 23 August 1944)...
That's why they were/are referring to this act as: "rumänischer Verrat".
|Posted by: Florin October 25, 2013 01:22 pm|
The "rumänischer Verrat" was the most painful because of the amplitude of the involvement of Romanian Armed Forces alongside the Axis, and their effectiveness and usefulness while doing so, even with the various shortcomings - available weaponry being one of them. In June 1941, while the Romanians were already with 2 whole armies in combat, all the other Axis allies did not even have an army corps there. And they kept this involvement through the 3 years of alliance.
What I mean by this is that Italy defected in September 8, 1943 (almost one year before Romania) and Finland defected about in the same time with Romania (August 26), and the Finns would do it regardless of Romania (they had negotiated with Stalin for quite a time, like Romania you may say). Bulgaria did not bother to send troops to the Eastern Front and then, in a historical irony, remained the only European country keeping a territorial grab got through the Axis good graces. And face it, Hungary at least tried it - I do not see much devotion to Hitler's cause there as well, once it had become apparent that the land got from Romania, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia (I think also a bit of Poland, but check this) had to be paid in return with plenty of Hungarian blood.
|Posted by: luciang October 25, 2013 03:59 pm|
| Then, it would be interesting to know which were the goods that Germany sent to Romania in exchange for the oil and cereals. Or were these paid with Reichsmarks at an arguable exchange rate ?
|Posted by: Florin October 25, 2013 04:18 pm|
Lucian, among other things, Germany paid to Romania about 30,000 kilograms of gold, that were confiscated by Soviet Union. The Romanian Communists had shown to the Russians were the gold was hidden.
So when you think of the Romanian gold that remained in Russia after World War One, add this big chunk of gold stolen by them in World War Two.
|Posted by: luciang October 25, 2013 04:59 pm|
| What I mean is this: if the planes were lent to Romania, this means that they were not given for free, because they had to be returned sometime. In the accounting books they were registered as a debt of Romania towards Germany, until the goods were returned. If a german economic commission established in 1945 that the trade balance between Germany and Romania was ok, this means that they took into account these planes as well.
So, it results that the planes were paid by Romania.
|Posted by: Dénes October 25, 2013 05:47 pm|
Wrong conclusion. These warplanes were lent to the Rumanians as long as they fought for a common goal. They remained German property. They did not show up in any Rumanian accounting books, only in administration papers.
These airplanes were to be eventually given to the Rumanians for free after the (successful) conclusion of the joint endeavour (which never happened, of course).
|Posted by: luciang October 25, 2013 06:03 pm|
|I see. Does this mean that the german accounting books did not take them into account as well ?|
|Posted by: luciang October 25, 2013 06:23 pm|
|I mean: it seems established that they were not explicitedly paid for. But, if the germans themselves established that the trade balance was ok, may be they have taken these planes value also into account.|
|Posted by: Radub October 25, 2013 06:32 pm|
Maybe this will help you understand:
When Romania purchased equipment from Germany, they purchased from the manufacturer. When Romania purchased Messerschmitts, they purchased them from the Messerschmitt factory. These were paid for in cash.
When Romania was loaned equipment by Germany, it was supplied by the respective branches of the armed forces, tanks from the Wehrmacht, planes from the Luftwaffe and so on. On some occasions, the equipment even kept the German markings. Some even kept some German staff on board.
So, when Florin mentions "balancing the books" he means "purchases".
I thought you had some new information.
|Posted by: Florin October 25, 2013 06:42 pm|
| Lucian, the exchange of goods between the 2 countries was quite big, and I dare to say that the value of all German airplanes accounted to maximum 1...2 percent of it.
But this is a wild guess. And I am also assuming that the I.A.R. factory paid for the engines inserted into the licensed Me-109, so they are out of discussion.
A historian would take into account the value of each airplane, multiply with the number of airplanes and compare with the numbers in foreign exchange books.
One source for the latter is the book translated into Romanian "Hitler, King Carol and Marshall Antonescu", by a German historian. There you will find the amount owed / paid by Romania, that owed / paid by Germany, and other things.
|Posted by: mabadesc October 25, 2013 07:12 pm|
| I don't quite follow the point of this discussion. Can a country be blamed for using any military equipment - be it donated or sold - against its newly declared adversary? Does anyone think the Germans would have expressed any remorse in doing the exact same thing, had the situation been reversed? I hardly doubt it.
Furthermore, just preceding August 23, didn't the Germans take over a good portion of tanks from the 1st and 2nd armored regiments using the excuse that they had more experienced drivers (instructors)? And didn't they keep all these Romanian-owned tanks they could get their hands on after Aug 23?
Further, didn't they deliver (as part of a paid economic contract) worn-out T-3's and T-38's earlier that year, not meeting a minimum of quality standards?
Finally, with respect to the "Rumanischer Vereat", one might equally accuse the Germans of a Deutscher Verrat when, after having promised to provide enough troops to keep the Soviets out of Romanian territory during the summer of 1944, they proceeded to move away from the Romanian front line approximately 5 armored divisions and send them to Poland.
Much to the dismay of Romanian commanders who continually protested that without the presence of German armored divisions, the Moldavian front line - and therefore the integrity of Romania could not be maintained.
In the eyes of many Romanian officers, the treason came from Germany, leaving them in a hopeless situation.
|Posted by: Florin October 25, 2013 07:13 pm|
| I searched on Internet, and you may find the following interesting:
1942 Ju-88 Production Cost
RM 107,966 material cost.
RM 6,876 labor cost. 4.86% of total airframe cost.
* * * * *
When China ordered 12 He 111 A-0s, it was at a cost of 400,000 Reichsmark per piece. But this may be misleading, because even to most trusted allies (i.e. Japan), the German equipment could be sold at few times its real value.
* * * * *
V-1 took 350 man hours @3,500 Reichmarks while the V-2 took 60,000 hours @240,000 Reichmarks.
* * * * *
Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 had a unit cost of 42,900 RM.
As for any Internet information, use your own judgment.
|Posted by: Agarici October 25, 2013 08:13 pm|
I couldn’t have said it better. I entirely agree with you, mbadesc. I also have a problem with the fact that some consider the Nazi Germany (which, among other things, looted the entire occupied Europe) as a responsible, normal or “quite regular” political regime - be it before or after 23 August 1944. And it is not a political correctness-driven point. An important part of the German wealth and GDP by 1944 was realized using forced labour in the concentration camps. The “Romanian betrayal”/ "Rumanischer Vereat" - which by the way wasn’t even mentioned in the most recent book dealing with the events, wrote by a German author (Klaus Schonherr – Luptele Wermachtului in Romania, 1944) is just another myth. It appears that some, when criticizing the use of the “historical myths”, are excluding from their critical scrutiny those which fit a particular agenda.
|Posted by: Florin October 25, 2013 08:52 pm|
I thought of that, but even better, you put it in writing. Especially considering that various high rank German officials made statements that Germany is/will defend herself at Dniester River.
Now, from a realistic point of view, both countries were in dire straits (maybe desperate situation sounds better) by July 1944, and they could barely help their own problems, even less helping each other.