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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Western Front (1944-1945) > lupta intre miraslau si aiud (romani si horty trup|
|Posted by: adrianus January 27, 2009 04:56 am|
| gasit in padure(de localnici)daca poate da cineva relatii?
please ghive me any clu about this fhight romanian trup and horty trups (turan),intre 5-11 sep 1944
Legend said horty trups came from miraslau and romanian trops made an ambus in woods kill them all(about 60 people motorized)????
but specific place???? miraslau -pagida -ciumbrud -aiud ????
|Posted by: Dénes January 27, 2009 06:38 am|
| Just one question to Adrianus.
If you call the Hungarian soldiers "horty" (sic!) troops, then why don't you call the Rumanian soldiers "michael", or even better "hohenzollern" troops?
|Posted by: 21 inf January 27, 2009 09:47 am|
| Ar Miraslau, on the right side of the road Cluj-Napoca - Alba Iulia is a military cemetery, but I dont know from which war. It is probably, as it looks, from ww2. When I'll have time, I'll stop to this military cemetery to identify the war belonging.
In various historical writings regarding ww2, foreigner or romanian, german soldiers are often called "hitlerist" , "fascist" or "nazi" soldiers, various from author to author. In the same manner, the japanese army in ww2 is called "imperial" army.
It is never found romanian army from ww2 as "michaelist" or "hohenzollernist" army.
|Posted by: Dénes January 27, 2009 10:54 am|
| Bogdan, when referring to the Hungarian army of WW2, the term "horthyst", or even "hortist", is used exclusively by authors/publications reflecting the national/communist point of view. Same with the "nazi", "fascist", or even "hitlerite" labels placed on the German army.
The usage of all these derogatory terms denotes clear bias against the army the author/publication refers to.
See, for example, the term "fascist guns" painted by the Soviet defenders of Odessa on the Rumanian cannon captured at Grigorevka in Sept. 1941 (check out the recent thread started by Dragos). Would you like the Rumanian army (up to Aug. 1944) be called a "fascist" army?
P.S. Obviously, I coined the terms "michael", or "hohenzollern" troops, to show how ironic such labels are. I even put an LOL sign at the end, to avoid any confusion. Apparently, I did not succeed...
|Posted by: MMM January 27, 2009 12:56 pm|
| Well, Denes, if this helps, I really amused myself w/ your remarks. Although it would have been mor3e appropriate to say "michaelite", right?
[remarks removed by admin]
|Posted by: Victor January 27, 2009 02:04 pm|
|MMM, there's no need to pour gas on the fire.|
|Posted by: Iamandi January 27, 2009 03:29 pm|
| Denes sometimes you make a stallion, from a mosquito. I have doubdts about the equivalent in english but i'm sure you understand...
I saw even on Discovery this... hortysts, but of course you will have better arguments.
|Posted by: MMM January 27, 2009 03:44 pm|
| Well, Discovery Channel is sometimes biased, what can I say...
However, I still believe Denes was right - for example, the Romanian Army should have different names, pre-23.08 and after? How about in WW1, then? We had three different stages (at least): neutral, at war w/ Central Powers, again neutral, again at war, then at war w/ Hungary. Thus two times neutral, two times at war w/ all Central Powers and once at war w/ Hungary. Should we have used three different names for the army?
|Posted by: dead-cat January 27, 2009 03:48 pm|
| "discovery channel" is hardly the ultimate authority on anything.
actually the hint was to use the proper designation, without Göbbels- (or Ilya Ehrenburg-) like terminology.
while it might sound like fun at first, if i continously refered to the french army as "crapauds" or "bloody frogs" in a napoleonic forum, sooner or later there will be a large crowd to take offence.
|Posted by: adrianus January 27, 2009 05:09 pm|
| ok,sory about cinic remarck ,but i take this from village people(horty Trups).
i ask all of u(very dyscovery chanel ,have u been there ,in the woods to know?).
i ask olnly if u know about this fight(give me break about all u remarks,how to call romanians trups).
Can u tell me some serios stuf
|Posted by: Victor January 27, 2009 06:00 pm|
| Sorry. I couldn't find anything specific regarding the incident you mentioned.
All I could find was general information regarding the Romanian troops in that area. The Romanian 6th Territorial Corps had deployed on 5 September in that sector an infantry regiment and the artillery of the 20th Infantry-training Division and the "Cluj" Fixed Territorial Battalion. These were fresh recruits (the training unit) and old men (the fixed battalion) On 6 September, troops from the 18th Infantry-training Division replaced them.
|Posted by: Dénes January 27, 2009 06:04 pm|
My thoughts, exactly.
Case closed from my side.
|Posted by: adrianus January 27, 2009 07:31 pm|
| tanks very much.
but still nobody knows any specific clu
in this woods i fonund a carabin flint(wathever)with metal detector is full of metal (but i dont have time 4 this
please mor story about this fight???????
|Posted by: dead-cat January 27, 2009 07:48 pm|
|just being curoius, is is still legal to go scavenging battlefields with metal detectors?|
|Posted by: 21 inf January 27, 2009 07:57 pm|
| I will stop sometime in next weeks to the military cemetery at Miraslau, in the probability that there are burried hungarian soldiers, too. There are military cemeteries in Romania were are burried soldiers from other armies.
As far as I know, in Romania metal detectors owned by particular persons have to be declared and registered at police, and the detection is forbiden in declared archeological sites and reservations.
|Posted by: MMM January 28, 2009 06:08 pm|
It's better than to remain there undiscovered, I guess...
|Posted by: ANDREAS November 28, 2012 06:58 pm|
|I recently found an extensive description of this battle, actually of the military operations in the area in the period 24.08.-14.09.1944. As the description of the operations is spread on 16 pages I can only point out some passages if somebody is still interested in this subject!|
|Posted by: Dénes November 28, 2012 07:41 pm|
| I am interested in reading details and specifics. Thanks.
|Posted by: ANDREAS November 28, 2012 10:45 pm|
| I'm glad to hear that Denes!
So, the first episode really remarkable that I read was that of annihilation (I can not find another more appropriate term!) of a German military trainsets that carries 3 heavy Tiger tanks (!!). The episode which I find a bit bizarre (because I know that in Romania in august 1944 can't be found no German heavy tank units!) happened in 26 august in Aiud railway Station, the Germans opposing the attempt of romanian troops to disarm them and capture the heavy tanks. But in an attempt to run with the tanks the German crews had the misfortune to have technical problems 2 tanks who managed to escape from the station failed to cross the Mures river because of technical problems and the tank who remained in the Aiud station was immobilized! This German military train apparently came from the station Teius so from Romania, apparently retreating towards Cluj. The Romanian unit who carried out this operation was a pioneer company it is written. I have no doubts that the German vehicles captured there were tanks but I can not imagine why 3 heavy Tiger tanks were moving through Romania at that time when no heavy tank unit was stationed/deployed on the Moldavian Front! In any case this episode is (seem) real so who knows?
Passing this episode to the main issue is mentioned that starting with august 28, 1944, Romanian troops of the Aiud area began to prepare intensively for a fight fearing an attack from the Cluj area towards Alba Iulia. Then they have constituted a detachment known as "General Visarion Detachment" or "Western Detachment" to defend an area between Buru on Aries river and east of Ludus town on Mures river (about 50 km frontal expanse). In this larger detachment the group that we follow further is the "Colonel Vladescu Group" who was responsable to defend the bottom line of "General Visarion Detachment". The "Colonel Vladescu Group" was composed of 8th Mountain Hunter Battalion, 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion and 5th Mortar Division (Battalion) and had the mission to defend the wooded heights from north Miraslau -Cisteiul de Mures. Because the evacuation orders for goods (from the military units) have delayed Colonel Vladescu ordered himself the evacuation starting at 29 august 1944. After successful evacuation of the goods and military administration the attention was moved to prepare the units for battle. Due to lack of personal the two mountain battalions were unable to gather (together) more than 1000 men (half of the normal war strength), but the situation of the transport means was even worse and almost non existent when we speak about communications devices and cable.
|Posted by: Florin November 29, 2012 05:25 am|
|Whoever issued the order to send the 3 Tiger I into Romania, could not predict what will happen on August 23. Maybe the 3 heavy tanks were in the right place, but at the wrong moment.|
|Posted by: Florin November 29, 2012 05:29 am|
The term "Nazi troops", "Nazi army" and "Nazi scientists" is used extensively in the U.S. as well - not that I would agree with that. Well, I guess you know why.
|Posted by: ANDREAS November 29, 2012 10:23 pm|
| Florin, I want to disagree! If indeed the 3 tanks were Tigers then the one who sent them here in Romania was stupid (or maybe not, just my oppinion) because with 3 Tiger tanks you can't have any effect in a large battle as was the one on the Moldavian Front started in 20 august. Maybe with a heavy tank battalion yes, possible, but otherwise not, only waste of good armor!
Back to topic, the precarious material status of the Colonel Vladescu Group make the commander to take (more or less legal) from a factory in Aiud about 300 carts sufficient for the needs of his battle group, the horses and harnesses were taken from the people from Aiud and neighborhood. But from a chance finding out of that a truck carrying submachine gun, field phones, G radio transmitter and some 30 km of cable have a accident, so the entire equipment intended for an aviation unit was taken away. So with the materiel and technical problems solved the group was prepared for battle receiving orders to forbid the access of the ennemy on the two main ways of penetration towards Aiud and Alba Iulia: the modernized highway and railroad Campia Turzii -Aiud -Alba Iulia and the carriageway road Buru -Valisoara -Aiud that converge toward Aiud city. The problem was that the forces available were completely insufficient to block both directions and to maintain the Cacova -Dealul Lopezii -Miraslau area, having a front length of 10 km. After numerous requests for reinforcements the group finally received another Mountain Hunter Battalion, the 15th, so that the situation of the group improved. In September 1st, 1944, it was adopted the defensive organisation of the group with the 8th Mountain Battalion defending the right wing from Mures river to the northern Miraslau heights forbidding the penetration along the communication Podeni Miraslau and along the Mures river, the 15th Mountain Battalion defended the Lopadea Veche height (445m) and in the reserve the 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion and 5th Mortar Division were ready to support the troops in case the enemy would overwhelm them. As heavy weapons there were only 4 mountain guns, Skoda type, 75mm., and 2 heavy mortars, Brandt type, 120mm for the 1900 soldiers of this battle group.
|Posted by: MMM November 30, 2012 01:49 pm|
| @Florin: perhaps the Americans DO use the term "nazi", but not in "scientific context" when reffering to the Germans.
@ANDREAS: what are your sources for this "3-Tigers" story? I haven't read of it anywhere else.
Also, "Mortar Division" could lead to confusions, as undoubtedly it's a batallion. It was discussed earlier in here:
|Posted by: ANDREAS November 30, 2012 03:31 pm|
|On September 5th, 1944, two trolleys with Hungarian soldiers appeared near railway station Miraslau. After they cross the railway bridge was blown us by Romanian pioneers who forced the Hungarians to surrender. The 12 Hungarian prisoners were escorted later to Aiud. At the same time a reconnaissance unit some 30 men strong appeared coming down the road Podeni -Miraslau was stopped by fire of the company led by captain Negru. The Hungarian group was destroyed after precise fire opened by the 120mm heavy mortars from reserve. Another reconnaissance unit appeared from Cicau but was was quickly rejected. In the early morning of September 6th, an hungarian battalion from the 23 Regiment/7th Field Replacement Division managed to take the height from south Lopadea threatening to enter in Livezile and endanger the defence positions of the entire group. To counterattack participated the entire 15th Mountain Battalion after two hours of intense fight the enemy was retreating although supported by fire from a howitzer battalion equipped with 100mm Skoda field howitzers (as was later identified). During this fight 33 Hungarian soldiers were taken prisoners. But in the same afternoon Colonel Vladescu was appointed commander over the forces from Aiudel valley intended to defend the Buru -Valisoara -Poiana Aiudului road. Emergency was represented by the 13 (Hungarian) Infantry Regiment /7th Field Replacement Division who was advancing on this route and threaten the group positions. The Lt col Negoita was was appointed commander of the group by Colonel Vladescu which was occupied by organising the romanian forces from the Aiudel valley. He took immediatly command of the 1st Battalion/ 90th Infantry Regiment found in Magina village who was ordered to move in Cacova village and held positions on all costs. Getting in touch with a battery commander from the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment who had just arrived in Aiud Colonel Vladescu ordered fire on the bridge between Poiana and Valisoara area located between two steep slopes in a rocky terrain. As he soon take contact with the 1st Battaion/ 83rd Infantry Regiment he ordered an immediate attack on the advancing Hungarian Regiment counting on the fact that it was affected by the hits of the heavy artillery and maybe disorganized. Indeed the attack was successful some 120 Hungarian soldiers were captured along with 2 antitank guns with their towing vehicles. They were part of the avant-garde of the Hungarian Regiment, the officer who lead them confirmed that heavy artillery hits combined with the rocky terrain which led to the displacement of rocks led to disorganization of the advancing column over which intervened the unexpected attack of the romanians.|
|Posted by: ANDREAS November 30, 2012 03:44 pm|
the same book describes both "Tiger capture" episode and also "Aiud -Miraslau battle" and is "In primele linii de foc" Memorii de razboi, Editura Militara, Bucuresti, 1981, from page 99 to 114. As I said I have some doubts about these tanks being Tigers as there is no logic to send Tigers near a front line where no Heavy Tank Battalion was deployed (or if you want SS Totenkopf or Grossdeutschland Panzergrenadier Divisions were no longer deployed -these two divisions had organic Tiger Companies or Battalions as I remember).
Agree, the term Battalion is better to be used even for artillery units. In order to not get to confusions! In any case I mentioned in brackets what I was reffering to -Battalion.
|Posted by: MMM November 30, 2012 04:29 pm|
Re: "batallion", I haven't noticed the parenthesis; if I had, I wouldn't comment.
Re: Tigers: also very odd is the small number of them: three tanks are just a replacement for something, but this particular "something" was NOT there in summer '44! I think, also because it's a book written in 1981, that the author saw something that wasn't there, for various reasons...
|Posted by: Taz1 November 30, 2012 09:16 pm|
|The only chance to be Tiger tanks in Aiud railway stations is that those tank belonged to grossdeutshland division from moldavian front and from some reasond-tehnical problems of locomotive etc were stil there when the events on 23.08.44 ocured and they decided to stop the tanks there desinbark and help german and hungarin troops from area, even it is hard to beleve that it is not imposible. I post here some pictures with tiger tanks being embarked on railwagons at Vaslui and Marasesti railwaystation. Other possibility is not to be at all tiger tanks but panthers or others german afw armed with 88 mm cannon.|
|Posted by: Taz1 November 30, 2012 10:16 pm|
|I can,t upload pictures don,t now way|
|Posted by: ANDREAS November 30, 2012 10:40 pm|
| Taz1, you are absolutely right! It's indeed possible that these tanks have belonged to Grossdeutschland or SS-Totenkopf Divisions and for various reasons could not be withdrawn in time to be send together with the rest of their parent division! Or as I assumed myself tanks may not be Tigers but a lighter type who knows?
I would like if you be able to post pictures, maybe the admin could help?
|Posted by: ANDREAS November 30, 2012 11:12 pm|
|On the day of September 7, the Hungarian 23 Infantry Regiment/7th Field Replacement Division attacked with one of its battalions the spur of the hill which separates Lopadea Veche from Cacova villages hitting the 1st Battalion/90th Infantry Regiment who had to be sustained by the 15th Mountain Hunter Battalion. Even supported by artillery the Hungarian troops were repelled by romanian battalions in the same afternoon. The 8th Mountain Hunter Battalion repelled the same day two ennemy attacks carried with forces of small value (30-40 men strong) on the road Podeni -Miraslau and on the Rotund hill. In the night from 7/8 september arrived at the group command post a soviet reconnaissance armored car with a major from the soviet 35th Army Corps which required data on the situation. Trying to collect alone informations on the Poiana Aiudului -Valisoara road, he was hit by ennemy strong resistance and quickly withdrew.|
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 01, 2012 12:57 pm|
|On the day of September 8th, it have been ordered to attack to the 1st Battalion/91st Infantry Regiment just arrived from the Teius area the heights from south Lopadea Veche in order to retake control over the country roads leading to Magina and Livezile villages. The attack was supported by the 4 mountain guns, the 2 heavy mortars and the 2 heavy howitzers of the romanian troops but the ennemy put up a strong resistance and he was supported by artillery too. But by the evening the Romanian troops managed to broke the enemy positions and take the heights. From this day the initiative passed entirely to the Romanian troops, the last attempt to attack Aiud city from the east after crossing the Mures river and the occupation of Micoslaca was blocked by the romanian battalions from the 92nd Infantry Regiment. The Romanians identified in this day the ennemy troops deployment: 1 Hungarian Battalion at Lunca on the Aries Valley, 2 Battalions at Valisoara and Izvoarele, 1 Battalion at Lopadea Veche and 8 howitzers 100mm, 3 Battalions in Miraslau and nearby (interesting is that occupation of this village was not mentioned anywhere earlier!) and 8 mortars 81mm and 4 howitzers 100mm, 2 Battalions in Decea and Unirea villages and 1 Battalion in Micoslaca south of the Mures river. It is mentioned the lack of armored vehicles by the ennemy forces at this time (so it is unsure if they existed before!). Between 9 and 12 september 1944 there were daily attacks from the hungarian forces mainly on the positions from Lopadea Veche area but they were designed to prevent an imminent Romanian counteroffensive as the Hungarian abandoned in 9th September their positions from Lunca (retreating at Vidolm), Valisoara (retreating at Rimetea), Miraslau (retrating at Cicau) and Decea (retrating at Vintu de Jos/Unirea). They also evacuated the bridgehead south of the Mures river abandoning the Micoslaca and Cisteiu de Mures villages.|
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 01, 2012 02:08 pm|
|Indeed on 14 September, two days later than planned, the romanian battle group (the 8th and 15th Mountain Hunter Battalions, the 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion and the 5th Mountain Gun Battalion alongside to the 1st Battalion/90th Infantry Regiment and the 1st Battalion/91st Infantry Regiment) having about 3200 men together with the soviet 35th Guard Corps vigorously attacked the ennemy, the Romanian group attacking on direction Miraslau -Podeni -Moldovenesti -Cheile Turzii capturing in the same day 4 100mm Skoda howitzers and 8 47mm Böhler antitank guns abandoned by the ennemy troops with all carts and horses together. By the end of the day the Romanian group has reached the Aries river north of Moldovenesti preparing to cross the river to form a bridgehead but was ordered from the soviet command to remain in place preparing redeployment in another area together with the rest of forces of the romanian 2nd Mountain Division.|
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 01, 2012 02:24 pm|
|In order to try to draw a conclusion from the text I posted I can say that there are relatively few data available in what concerns their own and the enemy's losses, are omitted important details such as the loss of Miraslau village, they don't explain very well the cause of enemy troops failures given that the ennemy appears superior in number of units... but is a starting point to reconstruct the battle from this area!|
|Posted by: MMM December 02, 2012 02:08 pm|
But didn't those two divisions leave the front much earlier? GD left in late July http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer-Grenadier-Division_Gro%C3%9Fdeutschland#1944 and the Totenkopf in early July http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Division_Totenkopf#Poland_.E2.80.93_Warsaw
Thus I found quite hard to believe that more than a month later the Germans would have left behind three precious Tigers; also, with the frontline repair shops available, the damaged tanks were either repaired "on the spot" or sent back to Germany for rehauling. So we should find another hypothesis...
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 02, 2012 09:37 pm|
Indeed MMM, I was thinking about this when I expressed doubts about these tanks being Tigers... episode is quoted from the memoirs of Colonel Mircea Vladescu who lead the 4th Mountain Group deployed in the Aiud area! And details given make this episode very credible...
|Posted by: Taz1 December 03, 2012 09:21 pm|
| Seems that the hungarian troops involved in this combats were not quite elite. Regardings the Tiger tanks it is hard to belive that they were there but as I said it is not imposible. We now that grossdeutschland division was transfered in est prusia in late july but we don,t have a exact calendar of the transfer. Embark and desembark hundreds of tanks and other vehicles it is not an easy task.It took time to transfer the division in est prusia. If those tiger were brokedown they were left at the end .The moldova front was a quiet sector until 20.08.44 so they had time to fix the tiger here( there was a repaire station at Bacau ) so all in all it is quite possible that the tiger where in Aiud on 26.04.2012. In the book it says something about the fate of those tanks? Most probably were seized by the soviets.
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 03, 2012 10:48 pm|
| Taz1, actually no, the book does not say anything about these tanks after their failed attempt to leave the Aiud area and cross the Mures river. Because I haven't gave too many details about this episode I do that now:
in the afternoon of 24th August a German military train loaded with materials coming from Teius arrived in Aiud station. In the middle of the train set had been introduced 4 platform wagons with 3 Tiger heavy tanks and 1 heavy halftruck with a crane and 1 platform with 1 truck and 1 light allroad car. The heavy tanks were fully loaded with ammo and had 12 men crew near them. The train was commanded by a (German) army major. The chief of the railway station Aiud who received orders to stop all German military trainsets heading towards the border, take out of the wagons the five platforms and parked them on a dead line. Taking into consideration the situation colonel Vladescu ordered to the 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion to send troops to take the train and if the Germans oppose to open fire. To execute the mission a pioneer company was send to the station and blocked all exits. The German train commander opposed handing the armor and threatened to use force. To intimidate the Romanian soldiers he ordered to shoot a few salvo from the tanks, the projectiles damaging several buildings and setting fire to a city warehouse near the station. The explosions and fires had panicked a part of the town inhabitants, some leaving their homes. In the morning of the 26th August the Romanian pioneers encircled the 5 wagons and hit several times the unarmored vehicles. The Germans tried to get off the platforms the three tanks and run with them, but without being able to improvise a landing stage because of the shootings. Their attempt failed! One heavy tank was overthrew on one side and could not move anymore but the other two were able to leave the station area. One of these two was found stumbled before trying to cross the Mures river on a bridge and the other one who succeeded crossing the river was found not far from shore, apparently stopped by a technical problem.
This is all what it's written about this episode with the Tiger heavy tanks from Aiud.
|Posted by: Taz1 December 04, 2012 08:53 pm|
|So probably there were tiger tanks. No allways archive tell everithing. The same situation is with the prezence of waffen ss troops on Moldova front in late august 44, archive sed one thing and eyewitness another but this is another storie. No dubt that the locals from Aiud how lived in the period had some interesting memories about the events, if somebody colect those memories.|
|Posted by: MMM December 04, 2012 09:25 pm|
| Probably is the key word here! Tigers were too precious and Romania's front wasn't a place to "leave behind" such felines.
Taz, it is funny, though, how you prefer some eyewitnesses to the archive documents.
IIRC, there was a site with the "history" of all the Tiger tanks in WW2, but I cannot remember it right now. That site should throw a light upon this dubious recollection...
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 04, 2012 09:32 pm|
| MMM, you mean this? http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm
About Grossdeutschland Division Tiger tanks it's written here: http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/tigers.htm
|Posted by: MMM December 04, 2012 09:37 pm|
YES! In my memory, it had more details, but either I remember wrong ('m getting too old...) or it was another site. I seem to remember the photos, though...
Thanks again, ANDREAS!
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 04, 2012 09:41 pm|
| Gladly MMM, but unfortunately we did not solve the mystery
MMM, perhaps you meant that? http://www.alanhamby.com/unithist.shtml#PRG
If here is reflected the real situation than the story above is unbelievable...
|Posted by: Dénes December 05, 2012 07:41 am|
There is documentary back up to this story.
"Reg. 91 inf. Alba Iulia reports on 26 Aug., 03:00, that tree German Tiger tanks are terrorising the population of Aiud, by firing on the road with their cannon.
Bat. 3 aca Simeria sent two cannon to support Reg. 91 inf."
|Posted by: Taz1 December 05, 2012 11:15 am|
| I don,t trust eyewitnesses more than archive in 95% of cases it the archive is corect but from various reason archive destroed during war etc. just becaus a fact it is not in archive doesn,t mean that never happend. Here is one site with tiger tank in Moldova in 1944 being repaired and others with tiger tank being embarker on railwaywagons : http://www.scribd.com/doc/61379071/Tiger-I-and-II-from-the-Bundesarchiv-Volume-II
This are the links with pictures .
Denes what does means Bat. 3 aca Simeria ?
|Posted by: Dénes December 05, 2012 11:24 am|
Bateria 3 antiaeriana, with home base at Simeria.
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 05, 2012 08:39 pm|
|Thank you Denes! Always a confirmation of a story is welcome! Even if we don't know which unit these tanks belong to, it's now certain that 3 german Tiger tanks opened fire in Aiud in 26 august 1944!|
|Posted by: MMM December 05, 2012 08:46 pm|
Is it? But if there were three and one of them had overturned, there should have remained only two.
Teius to Radio Erevan! Do you read me? Over...
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 05, 2012 10:20 pm|
|MMM, apparently you did not read the passage carefully: the tanks had open fire while they were still on the wagons, the two tanks you mention were the ones who were able to leave the station! When two sources say the same thing, why should I believe the authors who don't mention these tanks left here in Aiud? if these authors don't know about them (the three Tiger tanks), can you bet that they are right and the veterans are wrong?|
|Posted by: Taz1 December 06, 2012 01:29 pm|
| If we had 2 surces of information about the same event , most probably this event is real. It fits the description -3 german heavy tank with a heavy halftrack with a heavy crane as we see in the picture , necesary to help changing the wider trucks with narrow one for railway transport, one tank being stucked in the mud when it tried to cross the Mures reaver most probably from the narrow trucks good only on good roads and not in mud . Information regarding this incident now better the locals eyewitnesses this it was quite an event for Aiud in 1944, they probably now what happend with the tanks. Soviet archive it is possible to contain something because they confiskated all german armor found on the romanian front. If they were tiger tanks they were grossdeutschland ot totenkoph tiger - from what I now the only german divisions in Romania that had tigers.
We now if the were any german armored unit in that area on 23-26.08.44 ?
Denes from what archive do you found information regarding the 3 antiaircraft cannons send to help in Aiud ?
|Posted by: ANDREAS December 06, 2012 06:25 pm|
|Although I know that a direct connection with the subject discussed is hard to be made, I have to mention that in 25 september 1944 in the Turda battle the Hungarian 2nd Armored Division used in battle 3 Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. E with some succes against soviet armor, this tanks being probably the survivers from the Galitian battle fought in summer 1944. These tanks survived this battle and retreated with the Division in Hungary where they fought in the Battle of Debrecen. I mention this story because the Turda area was not too far from Aiud and in both stories there are 3 Tiger tanks involved. But being distant in time and space one from another I can't make a connection between these stories or an assumption that these tanks can be the same.|
|Posted by: aidan zea December 08, 2012 09:31 pm|
Because Denes appears to quote also a Romanian source as you do I think it's safe to assume that there were three tanks at Aiud who opened fire and two who tried to flee and succeeded up to a point but it's not certain that these tanks were Tigers! As I have in my library 14 books and magazines dedicated to the Tiger tanks (including history of all units who used him) I am cautious to trust this romanian sources!
|Posted by: Florin December 09, 2012 10:05 am|
Please define "scientific context".
|Posted by: MMM December 09, 2012 11:11 am|
Oh, come on! In scientific works (aka history books written by historians, not by the likes of Cristoiu and such...), in serious historical documentaries (also having historians as consultants), in scientific theses and so on. NOT on forums, though...
|Posted by: Taz1 December 09, 2012 09:40 pm|
|Romanians troops were capable of identified german heavy tanks tiger maybe to put panthers tank in the same category. I don,t think they missidentified the tigers with panzer 3 or 4 or stugs maybe with panthers tank but I don,t think so. The others elements of the story fit the description of a tiger tank detachment.|
|Posted by: aidan zea December 09, 2012 11:02 pm|
|Taz1, what I meant is that I found no mention in these books about any other heavy tank unit except Grossdeutschland and SS Totenkopf Divisional Heavy Tank Battalions in Romania. And as both left Romania several months before august 1944 I express my doubts! The explanation with the possible Panther tanks misidentified as Tigers is possible because the Hungarian troops (as I know and as Denes confirmed!) received in early september some german tanks (Panthers included) originally intended to be delivered to the Romanian Army. Why not some Panthers for training? Obviously is just an assumption without basis...|
|Posted by: MMM December 11, 2012 05:14 pm|
The StuG's wouldn't even have had the capability of firing from the railroad tracks! Their cannon had a very limited range of movement left-right or up... And a Tiger is quite difficult to be mistaken with another type of tank, IMO...
|Posted by: Taz1 December 12, 2012 09:25 pm|
|All I wants to say is that the story fits the description of a tiger tank detachement : the presence of a heavy crane needet for changing the tracks, the fact that the one tank remained stucked in the mud logic if the tank was equiped with narow trucks for railway transport siuted only for good roads. Ideal is to have more information about this event but it is not very easy.|
|Posted by: MMM December 13, 2012 01:27 pm|
So only the heavy tanks detachments needed a heavy crane?
OoT: if all three tanks had narrow tracks, why only one capsized? (or was it stucked?)
|Posted by: Taz1 December 13, 2012 09:28 pm|
|No this is not what I want to say. Only the fact that the prezence of crane the fact that one of the tanks remain stucked one brokedown enchances the possibility that those tanks to be tigers ( with narow track made for railway transport you had 99,99 % chances to be stuched on a bad road with a tiger otherways tiger had excelent offroad capability, a heavy crane it is needed to change the tracks etc.) In the end the problem is if we can trust or not romanian archive, did those guys were totally idiots and can,t recognise the heavy german tanks ? A tiger or a panther. From other surses I now that romanians troops were capable in 1944 to recognize tiger tanks.|
|Posted by: MMM December 13, 2012 09:44 pm|
With the risk of becoming nit-picker, not all the troops knew the difference! It was enough for some of them to just hear the dreaded word "TANKS", to get them running; not only the Romanians, but also other second-rate troops as well (intendence, sedentary parts etc.).
No offence for the veterans which fought the T-34's or KV's, but not everybody had that "privilege"...
|Posted by: Radub December 14, 2012 09:33 am|
| There is an inherent "issue of credibility" when it comes to Romanian reports about "Tigers". This is like the story of the "boy who cried wolf" - they said it so many times that no one believes it anymore, even when Tigers were definitely involved. Maybe soldiers thought that they had a better chance to get a "Medalia de Onoare" (what a great film!) if they come up with a dramatic story?
As for the earlier dispute about "horthyst", "hitlerist", "nazist" etc... These tend to be post-war labels. After the war, some nations found themselves allied with erstwhile enemies. For example, Romanian historians in Communist Romania could not refer to "fighting enemy Hungarians" because "Hungarians" were allies and friends in Communist Romania. So in order to differentiate between "their" Hungarians and "our" Hungarians, Communist Romanian historians came up with the term "horthyst" to indicate some sort of illusory enemy that has nothing to do with "tara vecina si prietena".
The same happened with the Germans. How could Communist Romanian historians speak about fighting the "Germans" after 23 August when the DDR was a friend and ally? So, they conveniently came up with the perplexing term "hitlerist" to describe "their" Germans that were definitely different from "our" Germans.
The Americans had to come up with a similar way of differentiating "their" Germans (Nazis) from the "our" Germans who were allies, hosted American bases and even helped put man on the moon. Hence the "Nazi" term for "bad Germans".
The most bizarre and mind-boggling case of such manipulation is the way Communist Romanian historians dealt with the Russians. "Their" Russians whom Romania fought in WW2 were the same as "our" Russians who were in charge. So, how can you make a difference? Simple! No mention at all! As a result, the Romanian campaign in Russia was simply erased from history books. Clean slate! Tabula rasa! We never learned about it in schools. There were no books about in libraries. The "King Michael Cross" could not be shown in print. People never spoke about "that war" - you could get into trouble for uttering the unspeakable. Officially, it "never happened". Officially, the "war" began for Romania on 23 August 1944 when the Russians "liberated" Romania from "hitlerists" - that is what we learned in school.
It is the classic "huo ai lor, bravo ai nostri"!
|Posted by: Dénes December 14, 2012 01:47 pm|
| Great post!
The only problem is that these labels are still kept being frequently used by Rumanian historiography after 1989 (occasionally even in this very forum)! One can still easily find reference to "Horthysts" and "Hitlerites" in books printed in the last 22 years. Funny enough, I've seen recently published books which refer to the Germans as "our German comrades" when speaking about the pre-August 1944 period, but about "Hitlerites" when dealing with the post-August 1944 period!
|Posted by: MMM December 14, 2012 08:34 pm|
OoT: really, Denes?! The same author? WHO?
Back to the Tigers issue: I suppose that somewhere in the German records should have appeared a mention about these tanks. Is there any German source?
|Posted by: Taz1 April 26, 2013 07:52 pm|
|I had some new informations regarding the tanks in Aiud on 26 august 1944 but from some reason I can,t post it. If somebody can help me I will post. I have it on mail. My email adress is firstname.lastname@example.org.|
|Posted by: Taz1 April 28, 2013 08:48 pm|
|Seems that nowone is interested in help me post . Any way in a book I found the information that in Aiud area from 26-31 august some 150 german soliders were captured , 2 german tank were setablaze and one was captured. The tanks belonged to the german 23 tank regiment( or it was the german 23 panzer division ) .From what I now 23 panzer division had Panthers tanks.|
|Posted by: ionionescu April 29, 2013 01:39 pm|
Help you post what? Photos? If you want to post photos, see here: http://postimg.org/ Its very simple, browse and select files in your computer and upload it! You'll get codes which you will copy/paste in here! Done! Of course, you also can specify the name of the book you quoted from ...
|Posted by: Taz1 April 29, 2013 08:31 pm|
|I will try to post . I have a problem with my computer this is way a ask for help.|
|Posted by: ANDREAS April 30, 2013 06:39 pm|
Indeed Taz1, the 23. Panzer Division was present in the battles fought in the vicinity (Turda area) but from what I read only from mid september 1944, not earlier... but I'm interested to find out more!
|Posted by: Agarici May 03, 2013 08:46 pm|
I agree, Denes. But the labelling issue is older and more intricate than the "ad posteriorem" ideological tagging, much to my surprise. Thus, in the book Rebeliunea legionară în documente străine (germane, franceze, maghiare) [The Iron Guard Rebellion in Foreign Documents (German, French, Hungarian)] which included official archive documents, Henry Spitzmuller, the Vichy France ambassador to Romania and a career diplomat used the word hitlerite ("hitlerien") in his official dispatches, sent to the Vichy vice-president of the ministry council and secretary of the foreign affaires department - none other than the (infamous) Pierre Laval - before and during the events from January 1941.
I see only two possible explanations to that: either that the French diplomat was anti-German and this was also evident in his official positions (which was rather implausible), or that there was another, more realistical and neutral use of the term. After all, in a TOTALITARIAN regime, everything but the opposition and the most deep and unconnected to politics strata of the society was fatally more or less "hitlerite".
|Posted by: MMM May 04, 2013 06:01 pm|
Again, Denes: WHICH AUTHOR AND BOOK are you talking about?
|Posted by: Dénes May 04, 2013 06:13 pm|
| I will not make his name public, because I don't want to get personal (I know him personally). Suffice to say that he is a well known aviation historian and author.
The point I made (call it 'historical schizophrenia') is still valid, though.
|Posted by: Dénes May 04, 2013 06:16 pm|
| Agarici, the fact that someone else also used this term, way-way before our days, does not diminish of the fact I was referring to, namely this peculiar terminology used currently by many (most?) Rumanian historians.
|Posted by: Agarici May 05, 2013 10:06 am|
Well, I entirelly agree with you about the mentioned contradiction: "German comrades" and "hilterites". I only wanted to point out that the entire question of labelling the components of a society run by a totalitarian regime is a rather intricate one.