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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Western Front (1944-1945) > Battle for Oradea|
|Posted by: 21 inf June 28, 2007 01:21 pm|
| I'm starting this topic hoping that there are some people around here who knows more info than me about the battle for Oradea and the aproach of romanian/soviet troops towards Oradea.
I'm starting the contribution with the information that I have at this moment.
The informations I gathered accidentaly during years, speaking in different ocassions with elder men, wich turned out to be WW2 veterans.
...even if dont remember the name (it was back in 1990-1991), a WW2 veteran, from romanian AT artillery told me that romanian troops were advancing on todays Arad-Oradea road. He remembered the very acurate german artillery fire when closing to Les village:"if it was even a single horse-powered wagon on the road, the germans put an artillery shell exactly on it". Romanians figured out that the german artillery observer must be on the tower of the curch from Les village. The veteran told me that he was in charge to destroy the tower (and the german artillery observer) and that he destroyed the tower with 2 shells.
Another WW2 veteran (met in 1994-1995) told me that his unit aproached Oradea from the direction of Tinca-Pausa, thru forests. When they aproached Nojorid village, romanian infantry (and himself) were atacked by german airplanes; the forest begun to burn and romanian infantry routed in panic.
I read somewhere that romanians lost about 300 men in the battle for Les village (about 12-14 km from Oradea). In the back of orthodox church of Les village was put a very small wooden cross for the romanian soldiers who died in ww2, 10 meters from the Arad-Oradea road.
The soviet troops aproached Oradea from Beius direction.
Being very close to Baile Felix (3-4 km), on a narrow valley, they found themselves under very heavy german artillery fire, wich inflicted great losses to soviet troops.
On that area died on the same action romanian colonel Buzoianu. There it is a monument erected on his memory.
These are my informations about Oradea battle.
Please feel free to correct them, or to comment or contribute with more info.
|Posted by: Dénes June 28, 2007 02:19 pm|
| You should contact the local museum and ask if they have any publication related to the battles in the region. Usually, there are such obscure publications available. Of course, they would present the actions from the Rumanian point of view.
|Posted by: 21 inf June 28, 2007 02:44 pm|
|I'm ready to listen also the other side, to made myself a real and complet opinion about events.|
|Posted by: Victor July 07, 2007 01:30 pm|
| An interesting book touching the subject are gen. Mociulschi's memoirs on the post 23 August 1944 campaign. His 3rd Mountain Division took part in the fighting near Oradea, on the left flank of the Soviet Tudor Vladimirescu and 337th Rifle Divisions, which actually entered Oradea.
Les was taken by the 11th Mountain Battalion of the same 3rd Mountain Division. It had been entrenched and fell only after difficult house to house fighting. No casualty numbers are mentioned, but 300 are IMO too many for one battalion. The only number mentioned is that of the POWs taken: 70.
|Posted by: 21 inf October 05, 2007 06:08 pm|
| According to ww2 veteran Dumitru Nadis in his article from "Serviciul Credincios" vol. II in Les died 318 romanian soldiers from 3rd mountain division.
In Oradea and surroundings "Tudor Vladimirescu" division lost more than 2.500 casualties in 2 weeks of fight.
|Posted by: mitzaRO January 25, 2011 07:43 pm|
| Hi guys,
I'm new in here.My name is Mihai and i'm from Nojorid,Bihor.
I'm very interested about this topic.
The information i know:
Between Oradea and Nojorid exists a line of bunker's(ruins).I've found that this line was called "Linia de aparare Ferdinand", is that right?Who built them?What type are?
I don't know what type of bunkers they are, could you tell me?
Also, there's an anti-tank entrenchment (as i know) called"Santul Anticar".
I'd like to know if there were any major battles,too.
I'm ashamed to ask old people in my village about these things,these horific things.
PS:Can we speak in romanian?
|Posted by: 21 inf January 25, 2011 08:11 pm|
| That line had no oficial name back in 1940. Later, it was named Linia fortificata Carol al II-lea.
The bunkers were designed to accept only machineguns and submachine guns, not artilery. They were built by romanians starting with the year 1938. They were blowned up by hungarian army in 1940, after N-W Transylvania was given to Hungary. They never fired a single bullet in combat, so there didnt happened anything horible in the war. "Santul anticar" was a part of the fortification sistem, which was starting at Seini, Maramures county, and ended at Zimandu Nou, Arad county. It was not a continous fortified front, it covered just the most important routes of invasion coming from west.
For more info and pics see here http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=3926
PS: admins of the forum dont allow romanian language here, only english, in order to allow foreigners to learn more about romanian military history, as there are few foreigners speaking romanian.
|Posted by: 21 inf January 25, 2011 08:15 pm|
I spoke some months ago with the local representative of Asociatia Nationala Cultul Eroilor, a former young army colonel, who said to me that the figure of 300 mountain troop KIA in Les is real, they are all buried in the cemetery of this village.
|Posted by: mitzaRO January 25, 2011 08:18 pm|
| Thank you for all!
I understand now, but i know there were some battles and aerial atacks.
Do you have more info?
PS:I'd like to meet you someday.
|Posted by: 21 inf January 25, 2011 08:28 pm|
| At least one aerial atack was in late 1944 against the romanian troops who aproached Nojorid from direction of Tinca, crossing the fields.
In 1950's there were still burned tank carcasses on the fields surounding Les and Nojorid, but they were not a result of a battle for the fortifications, they resulted more probably from the battle for Oradea, as I know from the president of local veteran's association, who was a child in that period and saw those wrecks.
|Posted by: mitzaRO January 25, 2011 08:39 pm|
| I think i know everything i wanted to know.,NOW!
|Posted by: ANDREAS January 26, 2011 12:46 am|
How the former enemy saw the battle, read (hungarian only)
I don't know hungarian but I'll try to translate it in english.
Maybe DENES can help us?
|Posted by: 21 inf January 26, 2011 06:05 am|
Thanks for the link!
|Posted by: Dénes January 26, 2011 06:34 am|
| The following chapter describes the battles in the area:
2.2. Harcok Nagyvárad környékén (1944. szeptember 20–1944. október 5.)
Sorry, but it's too long for me translate it.
|Posted by: 21 inf January 26, 2011 06:53 am|
|There is a chapter about the battle for Oradea, but it also too long to translate it. Maybe, if I'll have enough free time in the future, I'll put it an abstract, but I cant promise anything.|
|Posted by: ANDREAS January 26, 2011 11:41 pm|
Indeed it's too long... now I can see... Sorry!
My suggestion is, as far as possible, a short-description of the German-Hungarian units who fought directly with the Romanian units, so not with the Soviets (I don't know if such prominence is possible from that text). Again, only if it's possible...
And a direct question -the fight of the Les village with the 300 romanian soldiers killed- was with which german/hungarian unit? Was there the Wehrmacht's 76. Infantry Division or other unit? Thank you!
|Posted by: 21 inf January 27, 2011 04:42 pm|
| From the hungarian book above, translation of a few sentences:
On 29 september 1944, the armored group of 23rd german armored division hit the position of romanian Tudor Vladimirescu volunteer division, on a south-west direction, in the village of Cihei. Romanian troops tried to offer resistance, but only for a short time, and tried to retreat southward, but few managed to do so. The germans counted more than 200 romanian volunteers left dead on the battlefield. The comander officer of 11th border battalion, with 40 men, was taken POW by the germans. At 11.30 hours (after other reports at 13.00 hours), the germans took Nojorid, closing in this way the road from Oradea toward Salonta. After one hour, the soviet-romanian units atacked in Nojorid the subunits of 126 Panzergrenadier regiment who ocupied it, being repusled with heavy losses. After receiving a new regiment as reinforcements, soviet-romanian forces started a new atack, but having no results again, they retreated in south-west direction.
German-hungarian forces started to pursue them and at 13.30 hours they re-took the Oradea airport. Toward evening the lonk was made with the forces who were ocupying Nojorid and the line was pushed toward Apateu-Chirişid.
Meanwhile the german AFV's went back to Oradea for refuel. Around 14.00 hours they started a new atack. The AFV's crossed Nojorid with the firing support of 3rd armored batalion from 128 armored regiment and cleaned Leş of any resistance. The defence of Leş was asigned to hungarian paratroopers led by captain Kiss Zoltan.
|Posted by: ANDREAS January 27, 2011 04:57 pm|
|Thank you very much 21inf! Interesting to hear the other side point of view!|
|Posted by: 21 inf January 27, 2011 07:01 pm|
|The armored group of 23rd armored division moved forward and at around 21.00 hours found from information gathered from local population that romanian troops evacuated Gepiu just a few time before. ... German reports indicate that romanians lost 24 antitank guns, 6 infantry guns, 6 122 mm howitzers, 20 mortars, 32 automatic weapons, 4 trucks and 15 horse-drawn wagons.|
|Posted by: mitzaRO January 27, 2011 08:16 pm|
| Thank you 21 inf!
I'm happy knowing these info's, a little of the history of my village.
|Posted by: Leo_Niehorster January 30, 2011 08:38 am|
| http://translate.google.com is your friend.
By-the-way, if the text stops being translated, just hit the "F5" button. It will translate more. Repeat process until entire page is translated.
Read translation with a pinch of salt. It IS a mechanical translation, but will usually give a good idea what is written.
|Posted by: Dénes January 30, 2011 08:43 am|
| Here is one German soldier, who died in this battle:
|Posted by: mitzaRO April 18, 2011 01:24 pm|
| Hello boys!
Yesterday one friend was walking in the Nojorid forest and he found 2 grenades(i think).
Today i got one of them home. It seems that it already exploded.
On it is wrote"GFLM-79" and under that it's wrote "51-83".
It was muddy and i washed it.
As you can see it has holes on the bottom side and sideways.
A blue-green mass has leaked from it after i washed it.And now a white one!
So far i know that is a"Grenada Fumigena Lacrimogena ....M ...?"
I think it's romanian.
But, what period?
Oh yeah, to mention that he found it in that part of the forest where no one walked for many years, i think.
He found it in a place that seems to be a buried casemate. Theres something like a hill and on one side there's a deep pit.
In that pit were the grenades!
LE:I'll put the images imediately, it's too complicated to upload photos directly on forum!
|Posted by: PzKpfW January 12, 2016 08:28 pm|
| Hi there
What some others read in history books we dig out from the battlefield. We're based in Oradea but also dig WW1 and WW2 through Transylvania and Moldavia. We usually pay for situation maps from the Freiburg archives or Berlin R fonds, old german-hungarian memoires and so on. There are many remote sites where clashes were fought and no text was ever written about them. We also have an expo in the Fortress of Oradea. Subscribe to youtube and keep up with our research. We're WW2/WW1 collectors and diggers.
Below some small things from Oradea battlefields in Sept-Oct 1944 that we unearthed (both ground and attic finds):
greetings from Oradea