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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Western Front (1944-1945) > Romanian & Hungarian war-crimes


Posted by: Republican Guard September 07, 2003 12:23 am
Does anybody here know anything about the massacre at Moisei? :?

What about war-crimes committed by Romanians against Magyars?

Posted by: Florin October 10, 2003 02:38 pm
QUOTE
Does anybody here know anything about the massacre at Moisei?  :?  
.....................................


You'll find some interesting things about that in "Teroarea Fascisto-Horthista in Nord Estul Transilvaniei". In English:"The Fascist-Horthyst Terror in North-Eastern Transylvania."

The book has a lot of valuable, precise and documented information, not only about Moisei. I hope you are able to read in Romanian language. Maybe the book was published also in English, but don't take it for granted.

I wouldn't be surprised when a Hungarian would consider that book dirty Communist propaganda. I wouldn't be surprised to read any other labeling about the book. I have to say that is one of the few historical books targeting the 40's in Romania, published during the Communism, and not praising the merits of the Romanian Communist Party. Simply because the topic was not related to the Romanian Communist Party.

Now, about the Romanian crimes against the Hungarians. There is a saying:
"Any legend has a seed of truth."
I am optimistic that the Hungarian historians published a book about these crimes. If so, soon you may be get a clue from other members.
Regards,
Florin

Posted by: Dénes October 10, 2003 04:22 pm
QUOTE
Does anybody here know anything about the massacre at Moisei?  :?  
What about war-crimes committed by Romanians against Magyars?


Both topics have already been discussed, in general, on this forum. Check out: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/viewtopic.php?t=122

The book mentioned by Florin (one can already have an idea about the approach the book takes on this issue just by the peculiar title) is practically useless from historical point of view, as it combines facts with fiction (I've actually read the main parts of the book). Moreover, since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one.

As for "war-crimes committed by Romanians against Magyars", as written in the aforementioned thread, you can check out the following book, available on-line in PDF format, published after the fall of Communism by the official Organization of Hungarians from Rumania (DAHR, RMDSZ, UDMR): http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/feher/feher.pdf
The book includes documents, gives extensive sources and contains a large bibliography.

As for the crime at Moisei, here is what I found on a German site (not Rumanian and not Hungarian), http://www.karpatenwilli.com/komi7813.htm:
QUOTE
\"Am Ausgang von Moisei steht rechts vom Weg das Mahnmal für die 29 Bauern, die 1944 von den Faschisten hingerichtet wurden, weil sie die im Raum operierenden Partisanen unterstützt hatten.\"

Translated roughly as:
QUOTE
\"At the exit of Moisei right the memorial stands for the 29 farmers from the way, who were executed 1944 by the fascists, because they had supported in the area operating partisans.\"


You can check out the monument (made by a Hungarian sculptor), at the following site:
http://www.johnrausch.com/Maramures/moise01.htm

Dénes

Posted by: Florin October 10, 2003 05:54 pm
QUOTE
.............................
The book mentioned by Florin (one can already have an idea about the approach the book takes on this issue just by the peculiar title) is practically useless from historical point of view, as it combines facts with fiction (I've actually read the main parts of the book). Moreover, since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one.................................


Hi,

So Denes read the main parts of the book, enough to realize that "it combines facts with fiction".
Can he give examples of "fiction"?

I hated Communism a lot, as child, teenager and young man.
However, I do not agree with: "...since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one."
The Romanian Communist Party line, in between 1950-1980 was simply to forget everything regarding Hungarian crimes, and to show everything as a sweet love in between nations. Then, after 1980, under the strong Magyar offensive on all media and political fronts (from books as "History of Transylvania", to the pro-Hungarian lobby in the US Congress), the Romanian Communist Party decided it is time to don't hide the past any more.
Well, that's it for now.
Florin

Posted by: Dénes October 10, 2003 06:58 pm
QUOTE
So Denes read the main parts of the book, enough to realize that \"it combines facts with fiction\".
Can he give examples of \"fiction\"?

Because I don't have the book with me, I cannot give concrete examples at this time. Sorry.

QUOTE
I do not agree with: \"...since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one.\"
The Romanian Communist Party line, in between 1950-1980 was simply to forget everything regarding Hungarian crimes, and to show everything as a sweet love in between nations.

Until the early 1970s, Moscow's influence over the Rumanian Communist Party was strong; therefore, there was no room left for nationalistic tendencies. Every stingy issue that could overcloud the relation between "the two neighbouring and friendly Communist nations" was indeed kept under the lid - on both sides.
However, as soon as Moscow's influence weakened, the nationalistic line came to light. IIRC, the first major Rumanian nationalist book was "A word about Transylvania" by a certain Ion Lancranjan. That prompted a reply from Budapest, in form of a long article, titled: "About a strange book", a novelty in Hungary, as until then the whole topic of Transylvania was practically a tabu.
Needless to say, everything that was actually published was sanctioned by the Communist Party. The nationalist line intensified in the '80s, including the book mentioned by you, as well as other pseudo-historical books, often signed by Dr. Ilie Ceausescu (does the name ring a bell?).

Dénes

P.S. Ironically, some of the books of Dr. Ceausescu (as well as of his most famous brother, Nicolae) can still be found on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4958109-2024910

Posted by: Florin October 10, 2003 08:21 pm
QUOTE
.......Ironically, some of the books of Dr. Ceausescu (as well as of his most famous brother, Nicolae) can still be found on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4958109-2024910


Denes,

Unfortunately for Romania, people as Nicolae Ceausescu and Ilie Ceausescu are by far more famous than Nicolae Paulescu (inventor of insuline), Petrache Poenaru (inventor of the pen with ink tank, used by everybody before the invention of the ball-point pen), Henri Coanda, Traian Vuia, George Constantinescu (the inventor of the hydraulic/sonic synchroniser between helix and machine gun for the British in WWI) and so on. You know very well that I can fill one page if I am continuing this list.

The fact that books written by Nicolae Ceausescu and Ilie Ceausescu are available on Amazon.com could make happy only the enemies of Romania. Well, I know you are not one of them, and I understand your annoyance.

Florin

Posted by: inahurry October 10, 2003 11:25 pm
The nationalist line was always present and in fact is responsible for winning back the country for Romanians. 1958, 1964-freeing the last political prisoners, the election of Ceausescu against clearly pro-Russian alternatives, 1968-Warsaw Pact (except Romania) invasion of Cz.echoslovakia moment prove it. Or the detemined rejection of the "Valev plan" (1964 ), rejection approveded by Dej ( briefly, a Russian economist project to integrate economic regions in such a way that would have made Romania lose any control over its economic development). The 60ies are also associated with opening toward strong economic relations with the western countries.

It wasn't possible to express certain opinions on historical relations between, not only Romania and Hungary but also Romania and Russia (or USSR) or even on many of Romania's historical personalities until all the stalinists have been remved from important positions. The "breaking of the ice" began though with literature, also in the 60ies. Ion Lancranjan was a well known writer, not historian. Even in the deep stalinist era - the 1956 in Budapest episode, for instance - the Russians were quite aware of the rivalry between Romania and Hungary and rejected the Romanian offer to participate against the revoltees.

to Florin: All the names of great Romanians you mentioned are well known in Romania and to my knowledge were well known years ago. Of course, Ceausescu is known too, unavoidable, I wouldn't bet about Ilie Ceausescu, especially with the younger generation. Coanda, for instance was welcomed back with great honors toward the end of his life. Surely, Coanda, Vuia who were taught about from the early years in school are more famous than Gogu Constantinescu who was mentioned more at college levels. I just recalled now about the emphasis that was made at some point about Odobleja - clearly with a harder to understand work - and yet greatly popularized. And so on. It was a cultural "reconquista", in the history's field too, though it had its limitations.

Posted by: Florin October 11, 2003 08:36 am
QUOTE
.....................................
the Russians were quite aware of the rivalry between Romania and Hungary and rejected the Romanian offer to participate against the revoltees...


There were some actions of sympaty with the anti-Communist Hungarian movement at the university centers in Transylvania. Hungarian and Romanian students took part altogether in these protest / solidarity actions. Most of them were arrested in the aftermath.

My mother told me how the Communists shown in theaters a propaganda movie showing how in Hungary the Communists were hung in hooks for pigs, or how they were burnt alive. The scope was to show the cruelty and savagery of the anti-Communists.
The propaganda movie was withdrawn after 2 or 3 days, because the informers reported how the common Romanian watching was very happy with what happened with the Communists, and very disgusted about the Russian intervention with tanks and infantry.
On my behalf, I saw a documentary made by the Hungarians after 1990. It seems those people burned alive were members of the Hungarian Communist Security Service, who fired against people from their headquarter, for several hours, before surrender.

QUOTE
to Florin:  All the names of great Romanians you mentioned are well known in Romania and to my knowledge were well known years ago.


I know they are known in Romania. However, the Romanian nation has less than 1% of the planet population.
The only Romanian priority still to be found in the foreign technical books is "the Coanda efect".

Internationally, the 2 Canadians who made their claim about insuline 2 years after Nicolae Paulescu published his work in French language got the Nobel prize and are considered the first.
The laminar cross-section of an airplane wing, still accepted in the 50's, in Europe, as "profile NACA / Carofoli" it is known now just as "profile NACA".
Everybody in America is proud about the first flight of the Wright brothers, in 1903, but nobody mentions that their airplane needed an exterior mechanical help to take off. Next time when you'll have the chance to see how they took off, in a documetary, you'll see a big weight falling from a tower-like structure, close and in the rear of the airplane. Also you can see a rail ahead of the airplane. The immage is not crystal clear, because the film is from 1903. I guess the falling weight pulled a rope, which in turn pulled the airplane.
Traian Vuia, who was the first to take off in his airplane using only the motor of his airplane, is simply forgotten. Few French newspapers published the performance, but nobody from the French Academy of Science bothered to witness, because their official line was that no aircraft heavier than air can fly. But after Vuia made the proof, on 18 March 1906, they crowded to witness the flight of Santos Dumont made in Autumn of 1906, a accepted it as the first one. It is interesteing to note that Santos Dumont built in the beginning a completely different shape of plane, but that used in Autumn 1906 resemble very close with the one tested by Vuia in March 1906.

In the 20's, the British published a list of 20 greatest scientists, from their point of view. George Constantinescu was there. Who remembers about him today?

There are some good news, however. I saw on the American sites, including NASA, the mention that Coanda-1910, the turbojet airplane, was with 30 years before Heinkel (Germany) or Whittle (Great Britain). I think they saw how proud are the Germans of their Me-262, Me-163 and He-162, and decided to do something about it.

So, to end, as long somebody is not accepted abroad as the first, it is of littlle use that we know him. And the contemporary Romanian postal stamps would better show these technical pioneers, and not some exotic sports never played in Romania before or whatever personalities from far away, who may didn't know that Romania exist on the map.

Florin

Posted by: johnny_bi October 11, 2003 11:18 am
Denes,

there are many true facts written under the Communist regim... I could give you a personal example... My grand - grand - mother was cut to pieces with the bayonnets by 2 Hungarian soldiers ( I suspect they were gendarms) while retreating from Transylvania. The soldiers thought that no one could see them (the people evacuated the village) but the whole family was hidden in the house and watched. This happened in a village around Mures... The fact is written in the book "Epopeea de pe Mures" that talks about many "small crimes" like this that REALLY happened and that were true... And writing about those crimes had no importance for the historical point of view. The best way to check the stories is to go there and to ask... taking in consideration that you are from the region biggrin.gif. It is impossible to check "documents" about those crimes. But its remained in the memory of the peasants... The fact of being writen under communist regim is not a motive to discualifiy an entire book.
My grand-parents had no bad feeling about the Hungarians... they speak Hungarian and they have no problem to speak Hungarian when their neighbours express themself difficult in Romanian. And I think that this kind of attitude solved the problem by itself...

Posted by: Bernard Miclescu November 30, 2003 06:00 pm
QUOTE
Traian Vuia, who was the first to take off in his airplane using only the motor of his airplane, is simply forgotten. Few French newspapers published the performance, but nobody from the French Academy of Science bothered to witness, because their official line was that no aircraft heavier than air can fly. But after Vuia made the proof, on 18 March 1906, they crowded to witness the flight of Santos Dumont made in Autumn of 1906, a accepted it as the first one. It is interesteing to note that Santos Dumont built in the beginning a completely different shape of plane, but that used in Autumn 1906 resemble very close with the one tested by Vuia in March 1906.


I have some Aviation books in French and ALL of them (even in the dictionaries Hachette and Le Petit Robert) Vuia is considered the first pilot that flew an airplane havier than the air in march 1906. All the books are from late 90 or the beggining of this millénaire. Maybe they changed their mind about Vuia and Santos Dumont....

Yours,
BM

Posted by: Dan Po February 26, 2004 12:16 am
Im very sorry if i cannot give you here the exact informations but i read in a newspaper, years ago about a ww2 romanian veteran who was juddged about war crimes who was comited by the romanian troops in a village from bihor county (NW of Romania).
In that village (i forgot the name but was/is with hungarian majority, near to Salonta) the hungarian villagers attacket the romanian troops and a few romanian soldiers was killed. So ... was a few executions with a ZB light machinegun ...

In my oppinion was some war crimes commited by romanian troops ... as a revenge - they wasn t angels when their relatives was "worked" by hungarian after 1940 - and not only as a revenge ... sometimess. :| We have to take care when we talk about this subject, every part have his true. But i think that is very important to know all the facts.
Maybe a book, writen by romanians and hungarians about those hard times will be a good example for us .... we like or not we are toghether from 1000 years .. and we have to find a way to live in peace.

Posted by: Takács Péter October 07, 2004 01:39 pm
Florin!

I repeat Dénes:Visit this site:
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/feher/feher.pdf
You can read the truth from many survivors!

***edited by admin***

Anyway i am sure that the Hungarian soldeirs wereN1t always gentlemans with rumanian citizens but the most war crimes made the "yours".Anyway why made the red army russian lathe in Erdély?

Some example about your regular armys crimes:
1919.April 19.:Kőröstárkány,93 dead innocent Hungarians.(woman,childern,old man)
1944.September 24.:Gyanta,48 dead innocent Hungarians

They killing made the regular(!) army members.If you need then i search more and more events!

Takács Péter

Posted by: aerialls October 07, 2004 04:32 pm
1941 :

919 romanian civilians in only one county
28 churches demolished
total number of victims: aprox: 18000

***edited by admin***

Posted by: Victor October 07, 2004 07:12 pm
aerialls you are this close from being banned! Stop insulting other members and behave.

Takacs Peter, the forum's language is English. Please limit your posts to that language.

Posted by: dragos October 07, 2004 07:21 pm
QUOTE (Takács Péter)
Anyway i am sure that the Hungarian soldeirs wereN1t always gentlemans with rumanian citizens but the most war crimes made the "yours".


Do you have any statistics at hand to back up your claims?

Posted by: Takács Péter October 08, 2004 08:08 am
aerialls,Victor:

Not easy to select the russian and the rumanian crimes.But get me one week and i creat a statistic what i can to collect.

Wich was this county?

Posted by: aerialls October 08, 2004 10:35 am
this is no good.... Victor, it will be verry good for everybody if you'll delete this thread, the one with the romanian holocaust, containg that book wrote by the "maghyar" Mathias... and any other threads containing such topics.
but this is only my opinion...if you want.

Posted by: Dénes October 08, 2004 01:09 pm
QUOTE (aerialls @ Oct 8 2004, 04:35 PM)
this is no good.... Victor, it will be verry good for everybody if you'll delete this thread, the one with the romanian holocaust, containg that book wrote by the "maghyar" Mathias... and any other threads containing such topics.
but this is only my opinion...if you want.

Aerialls, the author Matatias Carp was not "magyar", but a Jew from Bucharest. He has nothing to do with Hungary. In fact, he targets the Hungarians as well in the 4th volume of the book. So please don't twist facts to suit your agenda!

As for deleting threads, it's the prerogative of the administrators. However, if such decision will be taken, then all three topics, namely war crimes comitted against Rumanians, against Hungarians and against Jews, should be deleted. This, however, would be covering up this (sad) part of history.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: johnny_bi October 08, 2004 09:19 pm
QUOTE
Aerialls, the author Matatias Carp was not "magyar", but a Jew from Bucharest


I think he knew that...he used the quotes...

I wonder why this work is hosted by Corvinus? In the name of the truth or just by coincidence?

Posted by: aerialls October 09, 2004 06:43 am
thing is that nobody knows how many jews dyed in the hands of the "maghyars"... some estimates are going over 700.000 thousend.... so....
i'm not posting anymore on this kind of threads.

Posted by: aerialls October 09, 2004 11:25 am
ok .... one last
(sad) post and over:
http://www.romanothan.ro/romana/holocaust/hol_rom/ind_dc3.htm

unsure.gif


Posted by: Takács Péter October 21, 2004 02:08 pm
Let's read this!

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/kosztin/kosztin.pdf

Posted by: dragos October 21, 2004 03:56 pm
The morality of the author of this work is more than questionable

From "Cotidianul" On-Line:

QUOTE
Intr-o carte editata in 1998 la Budapesta, Mihai Viteazul e prezentat drept o „bestie", iar „prim-ministrul Tatarascu o jivina"

„Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani in Ardeal" e scrisa de Kosztin Arpad

Volumul „Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani in Ardeal" semnat de Kosztin Arpad a fost publicat in 1998 la Budapesta de editura „BIRO family".
Structurata pe noua capitole, o prefata si un epilog, cartea este o blamare, o improscare cu noroi a tot ce este romanesc. Volumul este un atac ordinar asupra intregului popor roman si a personalitatilor sale politice, culturale, stiintifice.
In cele 185 pagini ale sale volumul prezinta viziunea bolnava a lui Kosztin Arpad asupra istoriei romanilor de la inceputuri pana in prezent.
In cele noua capitole Kosztin isi etaleaza intreaga ura impotriva romanilor prezentand „atrocitatile comise de romani impotriva maghiarilor din Ardeal" in etapele istorice mai importante: rascoala lui Horea, Closca si Crisan, revolutia de la 1848/49, primul si al doilea razboi mondial, revolutia maghiara din 1956 si perioada de dupa revolutia din 1989 din Romania.
Cartea scrisa cu o inimaginabila dusmanie impotriva romanilor si a conducatorilor acestora, are ca motto un fragment din lucrarea lui Orban Balazs intitulata „Descrierea Tinutului Secuiesc" publicata in 1870 la Pesta, fragment graitor pentru ceea ce va urma a fi prezentat in volumul scris cu o nemaiintalnita nerusinare de catre Kosztin Arpad.
„...chiar si in caracterul valahilor este prezenta suspiciunea, prostia prejudecatilor la care contribuie o reavointa vicleana: sunt trufasi, brutali cand sunt la putere si se tarasc ca serpii, fiind umili cand sunt depasiti sau invinsi: sunt din cale-afara de lasi fata de cei puternici si necrutatori pana la canibalism in confruntarea cu cei mai slabi decat ei..."
Inca din prefata autorul ne lasa sa vedem ce va urma in volumul plin de injurii la adresa romanilor:
„Romanimea din Ardeal, atat din punct de vedere al sentimentelor cat si din cel al culturii si inteligentei sale, este inculta chiar si dupa evul mediu si a fost mereu o fiara gata oricand sa comita atrocitati, un monstru moral. Istoria acestei romanimi este plina de atrocitati comise impotriva altor popoare cu care a convietuit secole intregi.
...Este suficient sa ne referim la faptul ca Decizia de la Trianon (4 VI 1920)...a fost luata in baza legendei viclene a continuitatii daco-romane care inseamna lozinca iredentismului romanesc, concept fara nici un temei istoric si stiintific".
In prefata Kosztin Arpad scrie ca „trebuie sa cunoastem atrocitatile comise de romani impotriva poporului maghiar si secui-maghiar din Ardeal. Trebuie sa le facem cunoscute si intregii lumi, intrucat politica, istoriografia si literatura romana trec sub tacere aceste atrocitati si fac totul pentru tainuirea acestora, pentru a prezenta romanimea drept campioana tolerantei, umanismului, bunatatii si blandetii, intentionand sa dovedeasca totodata ca maghiarimea este unul din popoarele cele mai cumplite din lume, ca prin genele sale este un popor criminal, ca maghiarimea este insetata de sange si ca aceste trasaturi sunt mostenite din generatie in generatie".
Kosztin Arpad apreciaza ca „numeroase semne atesta faptul ca, mai devreme sau mai tarziu, conducerea panromana de la Bucuresti - indiferent de tratatele de baza - va alege ca solutie a «problemei maghiare» din Ardeal lichidarea de la o zi la alta in stil de pogrom. Si nu intamplator! Nu sunt putine sursele istorice care relateaza ca in rascoala taraneasca a lui Horea, Closca si Crisan din 1784 taranii romani au vrut sa-i ucida pe toti maghiarii. Si aceasta «dorinta» a romanilor este vie si azi in unele cercuri ultranationaliste romane. Dar poate sa fie vie aceasta dorinta, pentru ca in zona noastra Romania este statul care s-a impotmolit la teorie continuitatii daco-romane, teoria rigida devenita o adevarata «dogma», teorie care nu are nici o baza istorica.
Romania este tara care se cramponeaza la conceptul romantic din secolul al XIX-lea de natiune si stat national. A ramas la ortodoxia sa cu radacini balcanic-bizantine si la fundamentalismul sau si nu asteapta decat momentul favorabil pentru ea, pentru a face cum a facut si cu evreimea pe care a exterminat-o din Romania.
Romania se pregateste si pentru rafuiala finala cu maghiarimea din Ardeal...Situatia maghiarimii din Ardeal are efect si asupra viitorului intregii maghiarimi. Cea mai importanta problema a acesteia este problema supravietuirii ei. Din acest motiv, situatia maghiarimii din Ardeal, si prin aceasta a intregii maghiarimi, trebuie sa ajunga in atentia opiniei publice internationale! Pana cand nu este prea tarziu! Si aceasta lucrare vrea sa slujeasca acest scop". (p. 7-10)
Dupa ce ne declara singur scopul sau, Kosztin Arpad isi incepe desantata lucrare.
Sa o luam pe capitole:

I. Introducere (scurta privire asupra istoriei)

„Nu exista nici o urma a continuitatii daco-romane sustinute si propagate de romani, nu exista nici un fel de element al poporului daco-roman nici imediat dupa 272 cand imparatul roman Aurelianus si-a retras legiunile si poporul din Dacia si nici la descalecarea maghiarilor. Acest popor ori n-a existat niciodata, ori daca a existat, acesta conform logicii a disparut, s-a asimilat in popoarele migrarilor din cursul celor 600 de ani.
...Dinainte de inceputul secolului al XIII-lea nu exista nici un lacas de cult (casa de rugaciuni, capela, biserica, manastire, cimitir), nici atestari istorice sau toponimice cu privire la existenta poporului valah (roman) in Ardeal.
Conform unor date statistice din 1293 in Ardeal existau in total 18.000 de valahi. Aceste date vorbesc de la sine ca la descalecarea maghiarilor (895), deci cu cinci secole mai inainte, valahii nu puteau fi prezenti printre popoarele cucerite in Ardeal de catre maghiarime.
...Pe la jumatatea secolului al XIV-lea valahii au venit in Ardeal ori ca refugiati, ori chemati, dar au venit «goi», cu mainile goale si nu se distingeau in munca, fiind pusi la cele mai de jos munci...dar reprezentau o forta de munca ieftina, umila fara nici un fel de pretentii, oameni care se ploconeau in fata tuturor.
Dupa cele doua razboaie mondiale si pana in zilele noastre au fost colonizati din Vechiul Regat in Ardeal 3.000.000 de romani. Totodata au fost si sunt colonizati numerosi maghiari din Ardeal in Vechea Romanie.
...Este absolut adevarat ceea ce a declarat episcopul Tokes Laszlo si anume ca de peste 75 de ani in Romania se comite o «purificare etnica» impotriva maghiarimii si a altor nationalitati.
...Intre ramasita de Ungarie si asa-numitele tari succesoare se desfasoara - de la Trianon incoace - un proces grav. Cei care neaga acest lucru sunt ori rauvoitori, ori dezinformati, atat in istorie, cat si in politica. In acest mare si periculos proces trebuie sa se nasca, odata si odata, o sentinta! O sentinta definitiva si aplicabila. Aceasta sentinta poate fi data doar de o «vointa» care reprezinta si o forta internationala, o forta care vede si marturiseste ca nesolutionarea situatiei unei minoritati nationale de 5.000.000 de maghiari reprezinta un periculos focar al destabilizarii in centrul Europei". (pag. 13-22)

II. „Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani in Ardeal
pana la rascoala taraneasca a lui Horea, Closca si Crisan (1784)"

„La Posada, voievodul Basarab, incalcandu-si promisiunile a ucis armata ungara cu pietre timp de trei zile" (p. 24)
„In 1599, cand Mihai Viteazul, devenit voievod dintr-un macelar, a invadat Ardealul, a trecut satele prin foc si sabie" (p. 27)
„Baba Novac, «sluga principala» a lui Mihai a fost un om oribil, un ticalos. Cel mai josnic hot al acelor vremuri" (p. 28)
„Comandantul imperial Basta - dupa ce s-a convins ca Mihai vrea, cu orice pret, sa-si pastreze Ardealul pentru el - a ordonat ca Mihai sa fie ucis langa Turda la 19 august 1601...In acest fel a scapat Ardealul de Mihai Viteazul, de acest intrigant care se prefacea a fi miel, dar se purta ca o vulpe sau un lup, de acest ticalos, unul din bestiile cu mainile cele mai insangerate" (p. 29)

III. „Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani
in timpul rascoalei taranesti a lui Horea, Closca si Crisan (1784)"

Kosztin Arpad sustine ca rascoala condusa de Horea, Closca si Crisan „a inceput datorita faptului ca la Campeni armenii au vrut sa-i impiedice pe taranii valahi sa vanda palinca. Taranii infuriati au spart butoaiele cu palinca si vin, iar armenii s-au adresat judecatoriei..."
„La 31 octombrie 1784 Crisan, in numele lui Horea, a chemat la o adunare mai multi tarani. In biserica ortodoxa din satul Mesteacan s-au adunat 500-600 de valahi cu mutre de pitecantropi, de o salbaticie inumana".
Dupa ce subliniaza cum i-a omorat oamenii lui Horea pe maghiari, autorul volumului afirma, intre altele:
„Lozinca lui Horea la Abrud a fost: «Omorati fara alegere pe toti maghiarii care nu sunt dispusi sa treaca la religia romana»".
„Horea si camarazii lui si motii acestora au devastat 389 de sate maghiare si au exterminat maghiarimea din regiuni intregi. Ca o consecinta a acestei rascoale taranesti maghiarimea din partea de sud a Ardealului a scazut in asemenea masura incat nu s-a mai putut redresa niciodata". (p. 30-39)

IV. „Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani
in lupta maghiara pentru libertate din 1848/49"

„Avram Iancu, conducator valah, a venit cu 6.000 de moti inarmati... Este un fapt istoric ca in cursul luptei pentru libertate din 1848/49 «conducatorul de osti», valahul sifilitic, in realitate o hiena, Avram Iancu si bandele lui au exterminat mai multi maghiari decat au cazut pe front". (p. 50)

V. „Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani in Ardeal
inainte, in timpul si dupa primul razboi mondial"

„Trebuie sa mentionam ca armata romana, care a depasit orice imaginatie in ceea ce priveste atrocitatile, arata deplorabil. Soldatii erau zdrentuiti, murdari, cu opinci in picioare si palarie de paie pe cap".(p. 58)
„Prin Decizia de la Trianon popoarele Ardealului au ajuns intr-o Romanie care apartinea unui cerc cultural balcanic, de rang mai scazut... Romania a pornit o campanie de exterminare in intregul Ardeal impotriva a tot ce nu era roman. Si asta face si in prezent!..." (p. 77)
„Duca a fost urmat in fotoliu de prim-ministru de Tatarascu, aceasta jivina care nu putea fi considerat om in ceea ce priveste comportarea sa fata de minoritati. Perioada in care Tatarascu a fost prim-ministru a fost cea mai neagra a destinului maghiarimii". (p. 82)

VI. „Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani in Ardeal
in timpul si dupa cel de-al doilea razboi mondial,
pana la revolutia si lupta pentru libertate din Ungaria din 1956"

„Incepand din toamna anului 1944 diplomatia romana a reprezentat in fata Uniunii Sovietice principiul ca maghiarimea s-a obisnuit sa ii «lipseasca» Ardealul, s-a obisnuit cu Decizia de la Trianon. Aceasta decizie a intensificat antimaghiarismul nationalistilor si fascistilor romani, asuprirea totala a maghiarimii, hotararea acesteia de a emigra". (p. 114-115)
„... In toate privintele Groza a fost un exponent foarte tactic al nationalismului roman caruia i-a fost incredintat rolul ca, in calitate de cetatean cultivat, filomaghiar, sa dea asupririi minoritatilor o nuanta democratica" (p. 127).

IX. „Atrocitati antimaghiare comise de romani in Ardeal
dupa revolutia din Romania din 1989"

„Din pacate, imediat dupa revolutia din decembrie 1989 Bucurestiul s-a reintors la politica de asuprire a minoritatilor nationale, inainte de toate la asuprirea minoritatii maghiare. Romania, conducerea romana sunt incapabile sa inteleaga faptul ca maghiarimea din Ardeal considera Ungaria de la Trianon drept tara-mama si ca maghiarimea care a ajuns, fara voia ei, in afara granitelor tarii-mama este considerata parte a natiunii ungare unitare. Aceasta constiinta a maghiarimii ii confera acesteia forta si putere! De aceasta putere se teme Romania, ca si conducerea actuala romana. Baza solutionarii problemei maghiare nu poate fi decat una singura: o Ungarie in interiorul careia ar putea trai cea mai mare parte a maghiarimii din Bazinul Carpatic. Fara o astfel de rezolvare nu va fi niciodata pace in Europa Centrala si de Est, in Europa!".
„In Romania - chiar si dupa schimbarea de presedinte si de guvern de dupa 1996 - relatiile romano-ungare sunt la fel de incordate si nu este de asteptat nici o destindere din acest punct de vedere. Nu este de asteptat, pentru ca ideea Romaniei este asimilarea totala a grupului etnic maghiar din Ardeal sau exterminarea acestuia prin pogromuri. Si pentru a ajunge la una din cele doua variante se procedeaza la genocid spiritual, fizic" (p. 166).
„Este bine cunoscut faptul ca tara si trupul natiunii maghiarimii milenare au fost ciopartite la Trianon (4 VI 1920) in asa fel incat mai mult de o treime din trupul natiunii a fost nevoita sa traiasca in afara frontierelor tarii. Din acest motiv natiunea ungara - fatis sau indirect - nu numai ca cere, dar si pretinde modificarea frontierelor proaste care ameninta permanent pacea Europei Centrale si de Est, cu alte cuvinte: revizuirea si remedierea acestor frontiere, chiar si in cazul in care vecinii sai se cramponeaza cu o lacomie sovina de teritoriile maghiare primite, in mod nedrept, cadou.... Deci natiunea ungara pretinde, intr-adevar, teritorii pentru recunoasterea dreptatii sale" (p. 172-173).
„Noul presedinte roman, Emil Constantinescu, care fara voturile maghiarilor abia daca ar fi presedintele tarii, a afirmat la intalnirea sa cu sefii cultelor din Romania din 2 mai 1997: «... nu putem astepta ca romanii asupriti odinioara sa fie trimisi din nou la sate». Asta a declarat primul om al Romaniei, tara care vrea sa intre in NATO si Uniunea Europeana.... Din aceasta declaratie reiese ca dupa Trianon nici o conducere romana de stat nu vrea sa schimbe politica fata de minoritatile nationale. Nu exista si nici nu va exista vreodata o conducere romana cu care sa se ajunga la o intelegere cu privire la problema minoritatilor nationale" (p. 175).
„Proclamarea Romaniei ca stat national, legile sale, lasa sa se traga concluzia ca se procedeaza la exterminarea minoritatii nationale maghiare! Oare guvernul ungar, de orice culoare ar fi acesta, poate astepta sa se intample asa ceva? Europa poate astepta acest lucru?" (p. 177).
„Azi, cand in Romania traiesc 2.000.000 de maghiari, nu se poate sustine ca totul este in ordine, ca putem dormi linistiti. Acum a fost prilejul pentru negocierea unor noi tratate de pace, cand in Europa au fost modificate frontierele mai multor tari. A fost momentul ca si in problema romano-maghiara puterile invingatoare sa gaseasca o solutie care sa rezolve definitiv, si pe cat posibil just, problema romano-maghiara. Noi nu dorim o solutie nedreapta, nu dorim sa contestam judete din Ardealul de Sud in care populatia romana se afla in majoritate, nu vrem decat un teritoriu in care populatia de limba maghiara este in majoritate. Maghiarii ramasi in Ardealul de Sud si romanii ramasi in Ardealul de Nord si-ar putea schimba, in mod voluntar, domiciliul" (p. 178).
Iata doar un mic exemplu de propaganda maghiara desantata.

Sorin Petrescu

Posted by: dragos October 21, 2004 03:59 pm
QUOTE
In a book edited in 1998 in Budapest, Michael the Brave is described as a "brute" and "prime minister Tatarescu is a beast"

"Romanian atrocities against the Magyars in Transylvania" is written by Kosztin Arpad

The book "Antimagyar atrocities of Romanian in Transylvania", signed by Kosztin Arpad
was published in 1998 in Budapest by "BIRO family" publishing house.
With 9 chapters, one preface and one epilogue, the publication is a blaming, a disrepute of everything that is Romanian. The book is an ordinary attack against the entire Romanian people and its political, cultural and scientific personalities.
In the 185 pages of his book, Kosztin Arpad presents his sick vision on the history of Romanians from the beginings to the present days.
In the 9 chapters, Kosztin shows his hatred against Romanians, presenting the "atrocities against Hungarians in Transylvania", in the important historical moments: the revolt of Horea, Closca and Crisan, the 1848/49 revolution, the world wars, the Hungarian revolution of 1956 and the post 1989 revolution period in Romania.
The book written with unthinkable ill will against Romania and its leaders, has as a motto an excerpt from the work of Orban Balazs, titled "The Description of Szekely Land", published in 1860 in Pest, excerpt that is relevant for what Kosztin Arpad claims in his work:
"...even in the character of Wallachians it is the suspicion, the stupidness of prejudices together with a cunning malevolence: they are arrogant, cruel when in power and they crawl like snakes, being humble when they are overcame or defeated: they are cowards in front of the stronger and merciless to cannibalism towards the weeker..."

Posted by: Takács Péter October 22, 2004 08:31 am
1.Admin-What is the forums language?

2.:"The Fascist-Horthyst Terror in North-Eastern Transylvania."
"Romanian atrocities against the Magyars in Transylvania" two books.


Posted by: dragos October 22, 2004 08:58 am
QUOTE
1.Admin-What is the forums language?


The language used by the members is English. I have posted an excerpt from a Romanian publication, which I didn't have time to translate entirely, only the first part. If anybody is interested, I will translate further from it, when my time allows it. However, I think what I have translated is relevant enough.

QUOTE
2.:"The Fascist-Horthyst Terror in North-Eastern Transylvania."
"Romanian atrocities against the Magyars in Transylvania" two books.


When translating from one language to another, different publishing houses may have different translators. I think it's about the same book. If it is a similar book, but not identical with the one you posted, then at least we know who the author is.

Posted by: Takács Péter October 22, 2004 10:02 am
You deleted my non english text!

I know that are two books.I mean you have a book and we have a book.

Posted by: dragos October 22, 2004 10:21 am
The rules regarding the language are clear. All personal comments must be written in English. When quoting articles, the text may be posted in the original language, but the translation must be provided when asked for. So enough about this.

Posted by: Takács Péter October 22, 2004 12:23 pm
And the other book?


http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/feher/feher.pdf

Posted by: dragos October 22, 2004 08:08 pm
Unlike the previous document, this one deserves attention. It focuses around the crimes of the Black Coats (Sumanele Negre) under the leadership of Gavril Olteanu.

Posted by: dragos October 22, 2004 10:44 pm
QUOTE
There were abuses, mistakes, arrests and murders [made by Hungarians] - this is unquestionable. Nevertheless, unlike the 1944 September-October anti-Hungarian vengeance campaign, these events were far from being organized.


The article tends to attribute Romanians an overreaction to the crimes of Hungarians in the same area. I have to refute the above statement. My grandfather, who fought in Transylvania at Toplita-Prunisor, was eye witness of columns of Romanian refugees, who said that the Hungarians soldiers were burning their houses in their controlled regions.

Posted by: Victor October 23, 2004 09:41 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Oct 22 2004, 10:08 PM)
Unlike the previous document, this one deserves attention. It focuses around the crimes of the Black Coats (Sutanele Negre) under the leadership of Gavril Olteanu.

That is Sumanele Negre. The article has been presented on the forum in another threads and it is clearly more scholarly written and researched.

Posted by: dragos October 23, 2004 11:49 am
Yes, I knew that, but I was thinking exactly to that error when I was typing and I have made it myself. The article use the term Black Hundreds smile.gif

Posted by: Takács Péter October 25, 2004 07:17 am
Oh!Olteanus crime not crime!I understand.And burning houses bigger crime like died thousands......Hm it is interesting!

Posted by: aerialls October 25, 2004 08:39 am


Olteanu's crimes were an act of "unjustifieble" (if i may call it so)... "revenge"... I think you know that allready, but you are still boiling waters around here...

Still here?




Posted by: dragos October 25, 2004 09:02 am
QUOTE (Takács Péter)
Oh!Olteanus crime not crime!


Nobody said that.

QUOTE
And burning houses bigger crime like died thousands


I didn't say that either. I said that the abuses, mistakes, arrests and murders made by Hungarians were organized too.

Posted by: Takács Péter October 25, 2004 09:10 am
I did show to you reminiscences of eyewitnesses and list of the victims with name,date and place.You can't show me anything!

Revenge?I beleive some things about the Hungarian army and gendarment but i think it was the reveage about what started at 1918 and finished in 1940!

The crime is crime!Irrespectively of who made.

Show me datas!


Posted by: dragos October 25, 2004 09:46 am
QUOTE (Takács Péter)
I did show to you reminiscences of eyewitnesses and list of the victims with name,date and place.You can't show me anything!


It has been discussed, only it seems you don't want to see!

Some of what has already been mentioned on this forum:

Treznea - 9 September 1940: 87 Romanians and 6 Jews killed

Ip - 14 September 1940: 157 killed

Sarmasu - 5 September - 10 October 1944: 126 Jews, 39 Romanians killed

Killed at Sarmasu:
QUOTE
dr. Banu Vasile (n. 1918, com. Mociu/Cluj, primpretorul Plasei Sarmasu, impuscat la marginea localitatii); plut. maj. Teodor Jucan (n. 1882 Buza/Cluj, fost sef al postului de jandarmi din Sarmasu/Mures, impuscat la coltul padurii comunei Camarasu/Cluj); Iuliu Moldovan (n. 1916, com. Catina/Cluj, contabilul Plasei Sarmasu/Mures); Ioan Moldovan (n. 1906, primarul com. Gabud/Alba); Alexandru Fizesean (n. 1896, com. Catina/Cluj, impuscat la coltul padurii Camarasu/Cluj; in urma lui au ramas 5 copii orfani); Vasile Micu (de 71 ani, preot, com. Sarmasu/Mures, participant la Marea Unire din 1 Decembrie 1918 de la Alba Iulia); Petru Cadar (61 de ani, taran roman din Sarmasu/Mures); Letitia Rusu (17 ani, impuscata la fantana in Catina/Cluj); Solomon Istoc (de 18 ani, din Grebenisu de Campie/Mures); serg. Iulian Predescu (seful Pichetului de graniceri Marasesti/Band); Zachei Seulean (71 de ani, taran din Grebenisu de Campie/Mures); sold. Barbu Radu (de 22 de ani, granicer, nascut in comuna Petresti/Dambovita, impuscat la pichetul Visuia); Ioan Gorea (n. 1925, in Visuia); Maria Gorea (mama, satul Visuia/Bistrita-Nasaud); Sofia Harsan (n. 1874, mama, satul Visuia/Bistrita-Nasaud); Eugen Harsan (n. 1925, fiul, satul Visuia/Bistrita-Nasaud); Ioan Loga (de 70 de ani, din Geaca/Cluj); Ioan Miron (71 de ani, din Geaca/Cluj); Ilonka Takacs (27 de ani, din Geaca, unguroaica, casatorita cu roman, in urma ei au ramas 5 copii orfani); Maria Rusu (de 2 ani, mama unguroaica); Ioan Teglas (20 de ani), Vasile Suciu (de 52 de ani); Ilisie Suciu (42 de ani); Cioba Viorel (de 3 ani); Maria Catinean (49 de ani); Tanasie Baciu (23 de ani, soldat din Regimentul 83 _ infanterie Turda, sosit acasa in acea zi in permisie); Ioan Lucaciu (40 de ani); Miron Filip (67 de ani), toti din Geaca/Cluj; Mihaly Estera (19 ani, evreica); Mihaly Rozalia (evreica, de 17 ani); Iosif Moldovan (taran); Ioan Cat (taran), toti din Sucutard/Cluj; sold. Ioan Gainusa, (de 22 de ani, n. Magureni/Prahova); sold. Gheorghe Pana (22 de ani, granicer, impuscat la Sarmasel/Mures); sold. Nicolae C. Nicolae (22 de ani, n. Hotcarau/Prahova, impuscat la Pogaceaua); sold. Florian Popa (granicer, de 22 de ani, n. Corbesti/Bihor, impuscat la Pogaceaua); sold. Gheorghe Ciulei (23 de ani, n. Ramnicu Valcea/Valcea, impuscat la Iclandu Mare/Mures); Ioan Craifalean (n. 1888, fost primar, impuscat in Iclanzel/Mures); Vasile Padurean (de 54 de ani, taran din Valea Larga/Mures); sold. Alexandru Bexa (granicer, n. Cacuciu/Mures), sold. Gheorghe Florea (din Reg. 7 _ graniceri Alba Iulia, ucis in Valea Larga/Mures) si altii

http://www.cuvantul-liber.ro/articol.asp?ID=11032

QUOTE (Takács Péter)
The crime is crime!Irrespectively of who made


I agree with this.

Posted by: Takács Péter October 25, 2004 11:26 am
I heard the 126 jews victims at Nagysármás but the romanians not.In your list i see a lot of armymen.They were prisoners or died in battle?

Posted by: Takács Péter October 25, 2004 11:47 am
Anyway you can find a lot of interestings at:
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/index.htm

Posted by: dragos October 25, 2004 12:30 pm
QUOTE (Takács Péter @ Oct 25 2004, 02:26 PM)
I heard the 126 jews victims at Nagysármás but the romanians not.In your list i see a lot of armymen.They were prisoners or died in battle?

The Romanians killed were villagers and soldiers captured during the battles of Oarba de Mures - Ludus - Chetani.

Posted by: Takács Péter October 25, 2004 12:52 pm
And do you see any different about this and the prisoners camps(more thousands) victims?

Posted by: dragos October 25, 2004 01:41 pm
What prisoner camps are you speaking about?

Shooting prisoners is a crime, no matter where they are.

Posted by: Takács Péter October 25, 2004 01:53 pm
Yes,shooting is a crime!But to martyr and to famish to die too.Like at Gyulafehérvár and Brassó.

Posted by: Chandernagore October 25, 2004 02:54 pm
Frankly I'm not sure where all of this is headed, with both sides just lobbing hot potatoes on the opponent's head. I'm not even sure wether the casualty count from atrocities can reveal something we didn't know or help explaining anything at all. What make me smile, but it shouldn't, is how one people's "massacre" becomes another people's "affair" or "revenge" in a war of words trying to take root in past ghosts. Rather futile.

Posted by: aerialls October 25, 2004 09:40 pm
Gyulafehérvár and Brassó... Alba Iulia.... and Brasov... formally known as Kronstadt. unsure.gif ohmy.gif

... lame post.... huh....

sad.gif

Posted by: Takács Péter October 26, 2004 06:37 am
"... lame post.... huh.... "

Your answer was great and substantive!

Posted by: aerialls October 26, 2004 07:42 am
Your answer was great and substantive!

I think it is short and with no meaning what so ever.... besides that: sad.gif

elaborate... pls.

anyway.... i should have give an adjective aswer but bad luck...: (

Posted by: Victor June 05, 2005 05:48 am
[split from the "Ethnic minoriteis in the Romanian Army" topic"]

QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu)
read some time ago about a hungarian origin pilot (don't know if he was officer or not), who bailed out above Transilvania after 23 august - the legend says he was captured by hungarian military and beaten to death.I am not sure where I read this - need to read some books again.


It was slt. av. Franz Secicar, from the 65th Fighter Squadron/2nd Fighter Group, who was shot down in IAR-80C no. 406 on 25 September 1944. He was found dead on the Feleac Hill, near Cluj, hanging upside down and skinned alive.

He was a German ethnic I believe, not Hungarian.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu June 06, 2005 09:27 am
Thank you Victor - what book was this written in ? Was it IAR-80 book ?

Posted by: Dénes June 06, 2005 10:51 am
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 5 2005, 11:48 AM)
It was slt. av. Franz Secicar, from the 65th Fighter Squadron/2nd Fighter Group, who was shot down in IAR-80C no. 406 on 25 September 1944. He was found dead on the Feleac Hill, near Cluj, hanging upside down and skinned alive.

He was a German ethnic I believe, not Hungarian.

I've read several versions of the story. I would like to see the original report, as this 'skinned alive' version is rather fishy and smells as propaganda...

Indeed, Victor is right, he was an ethnic German, or at least half-German.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: sid guttridge June 06, 2005 12:44 pm
Hi Guys,

It also smells of black propaganda to me. I would also be interested in knowing the original source.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Victor June 06, 2005 06:18 pm
Vanatorul IAR-80 by Dan Antoniu and George Cicos.

Posted by: sid guttridge June 07, 2005 08:35 am
Hi Victor,

Thanks. I have the book on order in French, so I cannot follow up their sources at the moment. I understand that their work is based on archive research. Do they give a document file number or other source?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Victor June 07, 2005 03:19 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 7 2005, 10:35 AM)
Hi Victor,

Thanks. I have the book on order in French, so I cannot follow up their sources at the moment. I understand that their work is based on archive research. Do they give a document file number or other source?

Cheers,

Sid.

No, there is no file mentioned for this information, but I can ask mr. Antoniu about it if you are really interested.

Posted by: sid guttridge June 07, 2005 06:55 pm
Hi Victor,

Yes, it would be very useful to know what Mr. Antoniu's source was. There is a big difference in reliability between contemporary archive material and ill-remembered anecdote sixty years later. It would help establish the credibility of this tale, which is important not just in terms of historical accuracy, but because it can create or perpetuate animosity today.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu June 08, 2005 06:37 am
Sid, I am almost sure his source came from the archives - but it is good to be 100% sure.But even if it was from the arvhives remember one thing: propaganda is the most efficient weapon, that pilot could have been found dead (hanged by a tree and beaten to death for example) and propaganda machine turned it into "skined alive" .

Posted by: sid guttridge June 08, 2005 09:23 am
Hi D13th-Mytzu,

I tend to agree. Angry civilians in many countries beat downed airmen to death (i.e. in Germany and Malta). Such a report could therefore turn up virtually anywhere.

However, while beating to death of downed airmen in the heat of the moment is commonly recorded crowd psychology, the skinning alive of someone is not. This is something that requires cold calculation and previous expertise, which implies a contemporary culture of such activities.

I think it very likely that what you say is correct. If the incident is verified, it is far more likely that the pilot was beaten to death and his body then strung up. Thereafter, rumour and/or propaganda probably exaggerated the story. Either way, it is not a happy tale.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Agarici June 16, 2005 02:05 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 8 2005, 09:23 AM)
Hi D13th-Mytzu,

I tend to agree. Angry civilians in many countries beat downed airmen to death (i.e. in Germany and Malta). Such a report could therefore turn up virtually anywhere.

However, while beating to death of downed airmen in the heat of the moment is commonly recorded crowd psychology, the skinning alive of someone is not. This is something that requires cold calculation and previous expertise, which implies a contemporary culture of such activities.

I think it very likely that what you say is correct. If the incident is verified, it is far more likely that the pilot was beaten to death and his body then strung up. Thereafter, rumour and/or propaganda probably exaggerated the story. Either way, it is not a happy tale.

Cheers,

Sid.


Unfortunately such a culture existed and has prolonged its existence until recently. A succession of facts:
- 1601, city of Cluj: Baba-Novac, Michael the Brave’s mercenary general of Serbian origin, then around 70 years old was skinned alive and then impaled, together with his confessor (an Orthodox Serbian monk) in front of a wide audience composed by the Hungarian nobles and their wives. He survived the skinning because, conforming with contemporary sources, the executioner has orders to stop from time to time and pour water on his body in order to keep him alive as long as possible. This was meant to be an example for all the “usurpers”, with an emphasis on those of Walachian/Romanian origin.
- September 1940: after the Treaty of Viena imposed the annexation of North-Western Transylvania to Hungary, a series of abuses and atrocities followed. In Huedin, Cluj County (a part of the annexed territory), an Orthodox priest was beaten to death for hours by a gang of local civilians of Hungarian origin; they torn apart his hair and beard (together with the flesh) and one of them forced a walking stick into his mouth until in came out on the other side. A former civil guard (employee of the Romanian state before the annexation) tried to intervene and convince the aggressor to let go of the priest (he was one against more that ten); for this reason only, he was beaten to death too. It took ten days until the family was allowed by the authorities to bury the priest.
- 1956, the Hungarian Revolution, the first large scale anti-communist upheaval in Eastern Europe: some Communist Party activist and secret police officers were beaten to death, skinned (alive, according to some sources) and hanged upside down by the public lighting pillars and by the main Danube bridge (“Lanc Hid”) in Budapest.
- December 1989, the “Secui/Szekely land”, a region with Hungarian speaking majority in Central Romania: after the overthrow of the communist regime some police officers were beaten to death by their fellow citizens, Hungarian (Secui/Szekely) ethnics; their eyes were poked out, their penises cut off and stuffed into their mouths, and then they were abandoned to be found by their families. This was the real version documented by the newspapers, later next year; the TV version (without images) was that they put dead rats into their mouths…

I don’t say that those proofs of “furror Hungarorum” were completely unprovoked or that all the victims were innocent. I don’t want neither to open the gates of hell in the never ending Romanian-Hungarian dispute (now fortunately taking place at the intellectual level) nor say that they represent a specific or inherited treat of the Hungarian people - it would be stupid, illogical and incorrect to do so. But those things happened and they weren’t exceptions. Such barbaric acts (and a subculture of such practices) are a shame for any modern people, and the most shocking fact is that some, if not all of them, tried to be justified in a way or another, after they took place. When condemned, the savage killers of the policemen from 1989 claimed to be some kind of victims of a prejudiced Romanian majority (and its biased judicial system) and their pardon was asked by both the Hungarian president (at that time) and by the political organization of the Hungarian ethnics from Romania, RMDS… and eventually they were released before having done their time in jail. If a fellow citizen would have done or inspired such acts I would not be content but with his conviction to the most severe penalty allowed by the judicial system, as a small but necessary compensation for his crimes and for the offense brought to me as his fellow citizen/ethnic by his evil acts. Let’s take the example of Miron Cozma, the ex-miners leader, Romanian ethnic by the way, responsible for the street violence in Bucharest, 14-15 June 1990: I think his liberation before the term is a mistake and an unwelcome act of mercy. But for some it appears that such a judgment is obscured by the reason of common language or ethnicity with the perpetrator (or fight against a common enemy), which is a very sad thing.

Posted by: sid guttridge June 16, 2005 10:26 am
Hi Agarici,

I would suggest that what you are doing is perpetuating inter-ethnic hostility without hard contemporary evidence.

It is perfectly possible to believe in such cruelties in the Late Middle Ages, even 1601.

It is also perfectly possible to believe that people are beaten to death by mob violence in the contemporary world. (There was film on the BBC of Chinese peasants being beaten todeath by a club-wielding mob only yesterday).

However, if one wants to suggest that calculated acts such as skinning alive are a feature of the last 60 or 70 years one must come up with the who, what, when, where and how, and respectable verifiable sources. If one cannot, one is simply spreading ethnic hatred.

Have you such evidence?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Victor June 16, 2005 05:56 pm
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 16 2005, 04:05 AM)
- 1601, city of Cluj: Baba-Novac, Michael the Brave’s mercenary general of Serbian origin, then around 70 years old was skinned alive and then impaled, together with his confessor (an Orthodox Serbian monk) in front of a wide audience composed by the Hungarian nobles and their wives. He survived the skinning because, conforming with contemporary sources, the executioner has orders to stop from time to time and pour water on his body in order to keep him alive as long as possible. This was meant to be an example for all the “usurpers”, with an emphasis on those of Walachian/Romanian origin.

According to the description of eye-witness Ciro Spontoni (related in the May 2005 issue of Magazin Istoric) Baba Novac and his priest were slowly burned at the stake, not skinned alive. They died following an extreme torment of one and a half hours. Afterwards, Baba Novac's body was impaled outside the city walls, near the Taylors' Tower.

According to mr. Antoniu, Franz Secicar hid away for a few days before being captured. He and the old lady that hid him were taken to be executed, but it seems tehrewas a change of plans and he was hanged upside down from a tree and skinned. The old lady was set free after being forced to watch this and she was the one that came later with other villagers to cut him down and bury him.

The author recorded teh story from three different sources: cdor. av. Fotescu Constantin, adj. av. Bouru Alexandru and adj. av. Lazar Victor.

Wether this story is true or false, we might never find out for sure. Sadism doesn't take in to account ethnical background. There are sick people in every nation and in times of war many come out in the light.

Posted by: Imperialist June 16, 2005 06:17 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 16 2005, 10:26 AM)


I would suggest that what you are doing is perpetuating inter-ethnic hostility without hard contemporary evidence.

However, if one wants to suggest that calculated acts such as skinning alive are a feature of the last 60 or 70 years one must come up with the who, what, when, where and how, and respectable verifiable sources. If one cannot, one is simply spreading ethnic hatred.


I think you're overreacting.
Also, 60 or 70 years ago large number of people were turned into soap, or thats what we've learned. One could say thats even worse than the Middle Ages.
So why would it be so far-fetched?

Posted by: Alexandru H. June 16, 2005 06:49 pm
During the collectivization of agriculture in the late `50s, the people in the village Flamanzi revolted against the local communist apparatus and beheaded every communist official in the village. The result? The village is now destroyed, most of its former residents were either deported in the south or placed in prisons...

Another example, from Africa....

Economist: "Even by the standards of war, some of the atrocities in eastern Congo are shocking. Zainabo Alfani, for example, was stopped by men in uniform on a road in Ituri last year. She and 13 other women were ordered to strip, to see if they had long vaginal lips, which the gunmen believed would have magical properties. The 13 others did not, and were killed on the spot. Zainabo did. The gunmen cut them off and then gang-raped her. Then they cooked and ate her two daughters in front of her. They also ate chunks of Zainabo's flesh. She escaped, but had contracted HIV. She told her story to the UN in February, and died in March." http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4054895


Posted by: dragos June 16, 2005 07:15 pm
QUOTE (Alexandru H. @ Jun 16 2005, 09:49 PM)
During the collectivization of agriculture in the late `50s, the people in the village Flamanzi revolted against the local communist apparatus and beheaded every communist official in the village. The result? The village is now destroyed, most of its former residents were either deported in the south or placed in prisons...

What is your source ?

Posted by: Alexandru H. June 16, 2005 08:55 pm
One of our professors, Dragos Petrescu, the director of IRIR (Romanian Institute of Recent History), told us that story. He said that the most important part of the story is still in hiding in the archives of the Securitate, but from some witness reports, some inner documents of the Party and an important testimony of an ex-Securitate colonel (unfortunately "off-topic" in journalistic slang, therefore he was unable to get his version printed) they were able to get much of the truth. Nowadays, few people even remember of the whole affair and informations are scarce (mainly because the story would make us seem like barbarians).

I think that the info can be found in some books about the period, but unfortunately I am not familiar with even one...

Edit: by destroyed, I don't mean that the village doesn't exist anymore (it very much exists). But a lot of its former denizens were "evicted" from it... But the battle spirit of Flamanzi won't ever die!

Posted by: sid guttridge June 17, 2005 10:53 am
Hi Victor,

I would suggest that while Mr. Antoniu may have heard the same story from three different individuals, as all are aviators it is likely that their source was the same one. Does he say if any of them were personal witnesses? If not, do we know how many intervening links there are in the chain of reportage between witnesses and them?

I would suggest that if it cannot be ascertained with any certainty whether this story is true or false, it should only be repeated with the severest of qualifications.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Imperialist,

The story of large numbers of Jews being turned into soap is largely an urban myth. However, it is apparently true that Himmler was once presented with a lamp shade made of skin from Jewish corpses. He was reportedly disgusted.

However, leaving that aside, there is a very large gulf in credibility between stories of what went on in the extermination camps and what allegedly happened in this instance. The amount of primary witnesses, physical and documentary material attesting to what happened in the concentration camps is overwhelming. However, in this case primary witnesses, physical and documentary material appears to be entirely lacking.

I have no problem with this story being repeated if it is demonstrably true. However, it would not appear to be demonstrably true on the evidence we have so far. That being so, it cannot be presented as a hard fact.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Alexandru H.,

A consistent feature of conspiracy theories is that the "authorities" are hiding something in the archives (in this case those of the Securitate). (See Feldgrau for threads on Oradour and Shingle Street, where some people claim that French and British archives contain material that the authorities are deliberately holding back, but for which they can provide absolutely no evidence).

In these instances the stories should only be reported with warnings that they are unconfirmed. Had Dragos not asked you a question, we might have been led to believe the Flamanzi story as you originally reported it, rather than with the qualifications you gave in reply to him.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In short, I would suggest that we should not be too ready to accept things as fact without good evidence, and we should not repeat them without qualification.

Cheers,

Sid.






Posted by: Imperialist June 17, 2005 11:24 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 17 2005, 10:53 AM)


However, leaving that aside, there is a very large gulf in credibility between stories of what went on in the extermination camps and what allegedly happened in this instance. The amount of primary witnesses, physical and documentary material attesting to what happened in the concentration camps is overwhelming. However, in this case primary witnesses, physical and documentary material appears to be entirely lacking.


Sid, no offense intended, and in a peaceful tone, I just wonder what if ever will satisfy you.

Let me give you an example:

QUOTE
It is written in the records of January 13, 1945 [13] that
guardsmen raped István Kovács ' pregnant wife in Árkos (Arcus)
on September 22.


In the notes section, at number 13, we find:

QUOTE
13 Where there are no specific notes, we quote from the grievance-list
compiled for the Peace Preparation Department of Budapest Ministry of Foreign
Affairs.
  Az Erdélyi magyarág ellen 1944. VIII. 23. óta [Románia katonai átállása
óta] elkövetett atrocitások (Atrocities committed against Transylvanian
Hungarians since August 23, 1944 [since Romania’s military breakaway]).
Findspot: MOL, Román TÜK, XIX-J-1-j, 18. d., 16/ b cs. (Hereinafter: Record.)


source: Mária Gál, Attila Gajdos Balogh, Ferenc Imreh; "The White Book. Atrocities Against Hungarians in the Autumn of 1944"; KOLOZSVÁR, 1995; pg.46

Obviously, I too can challenge that "record" for being biased and unclear. Who wrote it, how many witnesses, how many intervening links, etc. Plus the conflict of interest of it being compiled for the Hungarian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

In this way, apart from the large scale massacres in history, the rest of the atrocities in this world are "unreliably referenced".

Posted by: Alexandru H. June 17, 2005 01:45 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 17 2005, 11:53 AM)

Hi Alexandru H.,

A consistent feature of conspiracy theories is that the "authorities" are hiding something in the archives (in this case those of the Securitate). (See Feldgrau for threads on Oradour and Shingle Street, where some people claim that French and British archives contain material that the authorities are deliberately holding back, but for which they can provide absolutely no evidence).

In these instances the stories should only be reported with warnings that they are unconfirmed. Had Dragos not asked you a question, we might have been led to believe the Flamanzi story as you originally reported it, rather than with the qualifications you gave in reply to him.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In short, I would suggest that we should not be too ready to accept things as fact without good evidence, and we should not repeat them without qualification.

Cheers,

Sid.

The Flamanzi episode is quite real. I've heard it about two years ago, and last summer, when I went into Bucovina, I passed through Botosani and had the chance to ask some of the locals about it. While the normal number of morons were present, some of the others confirmed parts of it. You should know that the village was the original starting point for the last great peasant uprising in Europe, the 1907 debacle, and even in this day the villagers are fighting bitterly with the state autorities for the control of Dracsani pond.

Now, I don't want to seem like a conspirator, but the one that originally told me this story runs a very important historical institution that deals with the communist era. And since most of our archives are still closed from the general public, the little bits of informations we get doesn't seem reliable enough...

Posted by: dragos03 June 17, 2005 02:33 pm
About the problem of the stuff hidden by the state in the archives: some months ago i went to the archives of the Romanian Army General Staff in Bucharest. I was very surprised to find out that many documents are still classified, including many dossiers from WW2 and even files from WW1 and before.

I don't know what WW1 secrets they're hiding but the procedure if you want to find out is very complicated. One has to write a long letter with his motives and present his arguments to a large commision in charge of acces to these files.

So, if Romania still has so many secrets, i'm sure that Britain and France have many more.

For a Hungarian war crime (attested by all the survivors from the village, including the Hungarian ethnics) see this: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=122&st=30
As you can see in the thread, Denes still dismissed this crime because one of his books said otherwise. So, every crime is disputed, no matter how many first-hand accounts you get.

Posted by: Victor June 17, 2005 03:30 pm
I think we should return to the original topic.

Posted by: Agarici June 17, 2005 09:24 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 16 2005, 10:26 AM)
Hi Agarici,

I would suggest that what you are doing is perpetuating inter-ethnic hostility without hard contemporary evidence.

It is perfectly possible to believe in such cruelties in the Late Middle Ages, even 1601.

It is also perfectly possible to believe that people are beaten to death by mob violence in the contemporary world. (There was film on the BBC of Chinese peasants being beaten todeath by a club-wielding mob only yesterday).

However, if one wants to suggest that calculated acts such as skinning alive are a feature of the last 60 or 70 years one must come up with the who, what, when, where and how, and respectable verifiable sources. If one cannot, one is simply spreading ethnic hatred.

Have you such evidence?

Cheers,

Sid.


You should not use your ignorance for denial. If you want to know the truth you should start searching for yourself instead of dismissing everything that does not fit to your view of the world.

The name of the priest was Aurel Munteanu (protopop, that is a rank in the Orthodox Church hierarchy) and that of the civil guard Gheorghe Nicolae, and his brutal killing is pretty much common knowledge in Romania. There are more than 5 books (in Romanian) and numerous articles which mention the fact. It generated a big scandal in the contemporary press (Romanian and international), Romanian diplomacy protested at to the Hungarian authorities and eventually the criminals were brought in front of the Hungarian justice for this crime. Today in Huedin there is a street named Protopop Aurel Munteanu.

The books I mentioned present the whole range of excesses and abuses which occurred after the 1940 annexation of North-Western Transylvania, which are also rather common knowledge. And when I say abuses I mean almost anything you can imagine, from forced expulsion and expropriation to randomly killing civilians, pregnant women (with the bayonet), pulling out nails, torturing and beating to death, burning alive... The books are well documented and use multiple contemporary sources and archives documents; although some of them are faulted from the writing style/conclusion point of view, being conceived as a response to the Hungarian nationalistic propaganda.

The 1989 episode is also common knowledge for the people who lived in (were in contact with) Romania in these years. I’ve read it in the newspaper, as I told you. The facts were everywhere in the media, the situation analyzed, a parliamentary commission instituted and its report published. The perpetrators were convicted and then pardoned by the president (Iliescu, at that time). So come to Romania, learn the language and start studying the archives.

For the atrocities occurred during 1956 revolution, I’ve read this in a book, in my first or second year of faculty, and I was quite shocked. I don’t remember what book it was but it surely did not seem to be garbage, plus I found it in an American cultural center (I don’t know if this could/should be an argument). It is true that it was the only time when I red such a thing related to the Hungarian revolution, but than again this event was not of major interest to me.

I have a question for you, but I don’t want you to give me an answer, just give it to yourself: if I’ve described, in a much more detailed manner but without giving the sources, crimes against Jews, would you reaction have been the same, saying that I incite to Ethnic hatred? Or in your pattern of thinking it would have been better not to be aware/to ignore outrageous and painful realities like the Holocaust was, in order to keeping the people happy and not allowing them to hate each other?

Posted by: Agarici June 17, 2005 10:55 pm
In my previous reply I gave an answer to the question you asked. Here I want to say something about the style you use. I find your post rude, offensive and your personal remarks completely unwelcome; I’m insulted by your innuendos that I incite to ethnic hatred and I expect you to apologize.

Now a few subjective remarks: the inflation of your posts, on every subject, started to be annoying for me; not because you have to say something about everything, but because in most of the cases the background of what you say is nothing more then your willingness to have a saying in everything. As I said this is a subjective perception, which I did not express until you started making personal remarks. But what is most disturbing in your stile is your condescending and patronizing attitude, lecturing everybody. In almost any of your posts there is a line where someone is told what he/she should do or think. Moreover, you often try to impose your own subjective views, which I think is at least ridiculous. An example is what happened when you implied that Indrid was not at all useful around here. First of all this was another denial based on ignorance: you did not know what he posted, so you wisely decided he was rather a burden than an asset. After you said that (rude how it was, but it was your subjective opinion) people learned what you think and many of them, one after another, started saying good things about Indrid - their subjective opinions. But you didn’t let go and reasserted what you have said, on and on, trying to convince them that your opinion is the true one and the best. The same thing in the thread about the gay parade: if you didn't get it until now, I’m telling you that some people around here (including me) do not love that particular lifestyle. But you are a man with a mission; you insist and go on lecturing them until they will step on the right path. What’s the point? In Romania the gays have legal rights (only making proselytes is banned by the law, but as we could see that law is not applied) and nobody in here said something against them or suggested anything about interdictions, penalties, persecutions. Some only said that this lifestyle is not normal in itself, and in my opinion it desn’t take more than common sense to be able to see that. And personally I find the politically correctness-type, sophistical assertions of the type “what is not socially injurious is normal” offending to my common sense and intelligence. One thing is to ban/allow an activity legally, and another to preach its normality. Most of the psychical affections, for example, are not injurious for society, nor is the ridicule. I don’t want to waste my time with this kind of discussions, but I don't welcome anybody to push its version to the limit against the opinions/options/moral choices of the others.

In the end a suggestion, if I may: people around here (around being related not only with this site/forum, but also with the country/part of the world) does not like too much to be told what to do. Neither they like the pre-chewed, ready-to-go ideologies or pseudo-ideologies. One of the things people learned during the communism (but which they could practice only after its fall) is to look in a critical way to any ideological statement (like the one that say that if you don’t like the gay sexual preferences or you don’t consider it normal, you’re to blame - and it’s like you don’t like colored people). And this apply to a upside-down ideology like the politically correctness one too. I only speak for myself but I also I think people on this forum don’t like being patronized, neither an aggressive or arrogant stile of interaction, concealed by a few “please”, “should” or “cheers”. So in my opinion a change of attitude is badly needed from you… By the way, how many things do you know about Romania or about this part of Europe (except its place on the map), to act so self-sufficient?

Posted by: Victor June 18, 2005 05:26 am
Agarici, this kind of more personal dicussions should be handled via PM, not in public. Its is also off-topic.

Posted by: Alexandru H. June 18, 2005 08:46 am
Victor, this kind of message is not for PM use, because it is not only intended for Sid's eyes, but for our approval as well. And all I can say is... Two thumbs up, Agarici! Your post really covered everything... I'm kinda of jealous now... biggrin.gif

It is also not off-topic, because Sid's interventions pretty much decided the last page of this thread.

QUOTE (Agarici @ the king)
For the atrocities occurred during 1956 revolution, I’ve read this in a book, in my first or second year of faculty, and I was quite shocked. I don’t remember what book it was but it surely did not seem to be garbage, plus I found it in an American cultural center (I don’t know if this could/should be an argument). It is true that it was the only time when I red such a thing related to the Hungarian revolution, but than again this event was not of major interest to me.


I don't even know why Sid insisted we bring forward proofs for this one, as the 1956 events are well too documented by now. Sid, read Silviu Brucan, who went with Gheorghe Gheorghiu Dej in Budapest immediately after the events and saw the secret agents.

Posted by: sid guttridge June 18, 2005 10:19 am
Hi Agarici,

You misrepresent my position.

I have no reason to dispute the Flamanza episode. I was questioning internal contradictions in your two consecutive descriptions of the same incident. If the thread had stopped after your first post on Flamanza, we would have a rather different impression than we have now.

My point was about methodology and presentation and applies generally, not just to Romanian history.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Imperialist,

Yes, one should always challenge something when the record is unclear. One should also make the necessary qualifications when one repeats something of less than solid origin.

Yes, you can challenge the particular incident you gave on all those grounds, but at least the description is accompanied by a hard copy source for you to begin following up. Where does one start with the skinning incident?

I have here a copy of "Horthyist-Fascist Terror in Northwestern Romania, September 1940 - October 1944" (Meridiane, Bucharest, 1986), which I bought in a Dutch bookshop about fifteen years ago. It is full of stories about Hungarian brutality and killing of Romanians, all of which are footnoted and sourced. Whether the sourcing is accurate or not I cannot say, but they do leave a trail by which the incidents reported can be checked.

However, the book (which does not go lightly in its accusations and is, I imagine, regarded by some as black propaganda) contains no reference to the skinning of the Romanian airman, nor does it seem to contain any reference to any other accusation of skinning.

I have no reason to doubt the death of the Romanian airman. I also consider it perfectly possible that he was beaten to death and strung up by a mob because this is recorded as happening in several other countries. However, I do question the skinning story, as there is apparently no hard, or even circumstantial, evidence that this occurred. At the moment it has no more weight than a rumour, and as such should only be repeated with qualifications to this effect.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Dragos03,

We have about 1,000 closed files in the British National Archives, the oldest of which apparently go back to about 1910.

They fall into two categories. The subject of the contents of the great majority of them are known, it is just the actual contents that are not. However, there are a minority about which neither the subject, nor the contents are known. In neither case does anyone know whether the contents are incriminating or not.

In some case the files are clearly not incriminating and have merely not been released because nobody had previously asked for them. In my researches about five years ago I inadvertently ordered one of the closed files. The subject was secret British intelligence reports of Hungarian (and some Romanian) troop movements in 1944-45. I was told it was closed, but that on review it would be released to me as they could see no reason why it should have been retained. It appeared to contain Enigma decrypts from German sources.

I have details of the Traznea incident: It occurred on 9 September 1940. According to one source 263 Romanians were reported killed and the bodies of 68 were identified. Another source states that 87 were killed. The sources can apparently be found the Romanian State Archives, Bucharest, Collection Presedintia Consiliului de Ministri, Cabinet file 125/1940, pp.63-87 and in the Archiva M.I., Fond Documentar, file No.10, volume 16, p.217, amongst others.

So Traznea seems to be well documented. The skinning incident doesn't. That being so, they cannot both be given equal credibility and the latter should only be repeated with qualifications.

Cheers,

Sid.





Posted by: Agarici June 18, 2005 11:45 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 18 2005, 10:19 AM)
Hi Agarici,

You misrepresent my position.

I have no reason to dispute the Flamanza episode. I was questioning internal contradictions in your two consecutive descriptions of the same incident. If the thread had stopped after your first post on Flamanza, we would have a rather different impression than we have now.

My point was about methodology and presentation and applies generally, not just to Romanian history.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Sid, I said nothing about Flamanda episode. I understand that we as individuals are small and unimportant entities to you, but apparently you are mistaking me with Alexandru H ohmy.gif . This is way too much; I’ll send you my seconds this evening and the duel should take place first thing tomorrow. Being a gentleman, I’ll leave it to you to choose the weapons laugh.gif .

Now seriously, if you don’t even have the patience to carefully read what everyone said you should not rush yourself into radical, rude and offensive accusations. Perhaps you didn't know, but replying to every post is not compulsory on this forum. So I’m still waiting for you to apologize, and maybe it would't be such a useless thing to read, at least now, what I said.

It seems that you have something with the word skinned/skinning. You mentioned “Teroarea horthysto-fascista… “ (which falls into the group of books I mentioned in a previous post - well documented about those events, but also using some degree of propaganda) saying that you haven’t found out anything about skinning in it - you should read again. However, since you have red it you should be familiarized with the documented accounts the many killings, beatings, tortures… and other less common physical violence practices: pouring petrol on a four year old girl’s head from a Suncuius, Maramures County, and setting her on fire, forcing a retried person from Oradea to eat excrements spiced with paprika and drink urine, raping and torturing Aurica Manea from Bretcu, Trei Scaune County, in front of her father, and many others. As a part of this general picture does the skinning alive look like an outlying practice to you…?

Posted by: Alexandru H. June 18, 2005 12:29 pm
Sid, there is no contradiction between my two posts. In the first one, I described what happened; in the second, I mentioned my sources....

Posted by: dragos03 June 18, 2005 03:04 pm
Sid, nobody contests that the Treznea incident happened. The problems is that the Hungarians have different story concerning the motives of the massacre. The Hungarian story claims that Hungarian soldiers passing through the village were machineguned from the church by the priest's daughters (!).

The truth was that not the soldiers were responsible (the soldiers passed through in order and without any incidents), there were Hungarian ethnics from the nearby city of Zalau, dressed in Hungarian military uniforms, sent by the ex-noble who owned the village. The noble wanted as many villagers as possible to be killed in order to reclaim the deserted village afterwards.

At Treznea the old orthodox priest was burned alive after being shot in both legs. A pregnant woman was stabbed with bayonets in the whom and let to die. Many other women and children were brutally murdered. They even killed 2 ethnic Hungarians from the village, as traitors, because they were trying to stop the massacre and protect their neighbours. I don't know what is so hard to believe that people who did those things could also have skinned a man alive.


Posted by: Dénes June 18, 2005 04:31 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Jun 18 2005, 09:04 PM)
I don't know what is so hard to believe that people who did those things could also have skinned a man alive.

I just returned from Europe and started to read through last weeks' posts.

I am very sorry to see that lately posts of certain members with extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views have flourished, who propagate unproven facts, with no apparent reaction from the moderators' part, casting a shadow on this forum, directly affecting its credibility.

I will not even attempt to react to all these inflammatory posts, as I am convinced that no amount of reasoning and counter-proofs will change, even the slightest, the opinion of these posters - who luckily are in minority here.

If my time permits, I will select a few posts, particularly those that are connected to aviation, and try to answer them, so the view of others would be heard as well.

I hope the quality of this forum will stay on course and won't slide to substandard levels and thus fade into obscurity.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos03 June 18, 2005 04:41 pm
Was anything extremist or xenofobic in my posts? Was there a lack of souces? I spent one day to talk to an entire village before writing what i wrote.

It is a shame to this forum that this guy can be a moderator.

Posted by: Agarici June 18, 2005 04:52 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 18 2005, 04:31 PM)

I am very sorry to see that lately posts of certain members with extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views have flourished, who propagate unproven facts, with no apparent reaction from the moderators' part, casting a shadow on this forum, directly affecting its credibility.

I will not even attempt to react to all these inflammatory posts, as I am convinced that no amount of reasoning and counter-proofs will change, even the slightest, the opinion of these posters - who luckily are in minority here.



I must say I don't see too many unproven/undocumented facts mentioned by the last posts in this topic. And may I ask, Mr. Denes, who those extremist, xenophobe, chauvinist members would be?

Is this another version of the strategy of denial or some members are still more equal that the others around here, and they could simply tell us what the truth is without having to bring forward a single proof?

Posted by: Imperialist June 18, 2005 05:02 pm
QUOTE
I am very sorry to see that lately posts of certain members with extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views have flourished, who propagate unproven facts, with no apparent reaction from the moderators' part, casting a shadow on this forum, directly affecting its credibility.


I dont know who those members are exactly, but we shouldnt forget members with "one-sided propaganda agenda" who also deal terrible blows to this forum's credibility, as seen here:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2027&st=15&#entry34611

take care

Posted by: dragos June 18, 2005 05:09 pm
Given the fact that this is a sensitive topic, in order to maintain a level of quality of the debate, it is required that all the facts presented should be brought together with the sources, be those books, eye witnesses, indirect accounts etc.

On the other hand, Denes, if those facts are presented with the proper sources, you can attack those sources (with arguments), not the people presenting them.

Posted by: Dénes June 18, 2005 07:11 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Jun 18 2005, 11:09 PM)
Given the fact that this is a sensitive topic, in order to maintain a level of quality of the debate, it is required that all the facts presented should be brought together with the sources, be those books, eye witnesses, indirect accounts etc.

On the other hand, Denes, if those facts are presented with the proper sources, you can attack those sources (with arguments), not the people presenting them.

I agree with Dragos' fair stance on this issue and the points outlined above, which hopefully will find their way into the forum's guidelines (the sooner the better).

Once the problem of listing the sources of various allegations of both sides are clarified - dismissing outright all 'facts' that are not properly sourced - we should take a closer look on the sources themselves. For example, citing the infamous book 'Teroarea horthysto-fascista in nord-vestul Romaniei, septembrie 1940 — octombrie 1944' ['The Horthyst-Fascist Terror in North-Western Rumania (translation: Hungarian Terror in Northern Transylvania)', Sept. 1940 - Oct. 1944] in my opinion is similar to citing Herr Göbbels' or Comrade Ilya Ehrenburg's finest 'works', or the Hungarian extremists' hate-laced texts, like Csaba Dücsö's.

The problem of eye witnesses' recollections after more than a half decade of the events is a controversial one, as memory and over repeated facts can play tricks even on the best intended persons - as I personally learned while talking to persons in their late '70s, early '80s about events that happened during World War 2. What they recall today may or may not be true and can be hardly used as solid evidence.

I am looking forward to seeing the enforcement of the moderator's guidelines on future posts, dismissing all older posts that do not live up to this minimal standard.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. I don't have either the time, or the desire to reply to individual personal attacks, which only qualify the authors. If anyone has anything personal with me, use the PM feature or knock on my door.

Posted by: Agarici June 18, 2005 09:27 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 18 2005, 07:11 PM)


Once the problem of listing the sources of various allegations of both sides are clarified - dismissing outright all 'facts' that are not properly sourced - we should take a closer look on the sources themselves. For example, citing the infamous book 'Teroarea horthysto-fascista in nord-vestul Romaniei, septembrie 1940 — octombrie 1944' ['The Horthyst-Fascist Terror in North-Western Rumania (translation: Hungarian Terror in Northern Transylvania)', Sept. 1940 - Oct. 1944] in my opinion is similar to citing Herr Göbbels' or Comrade Ilya Ehrenburg's finest 'works', or the Hungarian extremists' hate-laced texts, like Csaba Dücsö's.



This is a radical, exaggerate view and I will simply not take it into account; also, by your own standards it is not documented.

You can see my opinion about the book mentioned expressed in an earlier post. Do you also have some arguments for dismissing this book as a source? I would very much like to hear them, if they exist. It appears to me that you fail to make the difference between the hard facts used, quoted, listed by an author and his conclusions. I think nobody in here quoted any conclusion or value statement from that book - they are pretty much cheap propaganda. But in what the facts itself are concerned, I must tell you that I don’t care who uses (or is trying to use them) if they are accurate, backed by data which could be found and verified in the archives.

Posted by: johnny_bi June 18, 2005 09:36 pm
QUOTE ("Denes")
The problem of eye witnesses' recollections after more than a half decade of the events is a controversial one, as memory and over repeated facts can play tricks even on the best intended persons - as I personally learned while talking to persons in their late '70s, early '80s about events that happened during World War 2. What they recall today may or may not be true and can be hardly used as solid evidence.


As an observation... I do not intend to defend any of the above statements... As I have said - just an observation: you can not put under the sign of relativity all the testimonies... Many of these testimonies are collective testimonies, as I have explained few months ago (my grand-grand mother being sliced by some guys)... I have explained also how my grand-parents "dealed" with such kind of memories that are however hard to forget...

It is pretty sad to see that this thread became a kind of "you killed more people than we did ..."

Posted by: Agarici June 18, 2005 09:43 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 18 2005, 07:11 PM)

P.S. I don't have either the time, or the desire to reply to individual personal attacks, which only qualify the authors. If anyone has anything personal with me, use the PM feature or knock on my door.


It is strange that you talk about personal attacks. But you are right and I completely agree with everything you say here. Also in the view of what you have said earlier, your individual personal attack only qualifies you...

Quote Denes:
"I am very sorry to see that lately posts of certain members with extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views have flourished, who propagate unproven facts, with no apparent reaction from the moderators' part, casting a shadow on this forum, directly affecting its credibility."

Posted by: dragos03 June 18, 2005 09:43 pm
Actually Dragos's stance is not fair at all. You insulted me (and other unidentified members) by calling me extremist, xenophobic and chauvinistic, without any reason. And you got away with it, without at least getting a warning.

I never insulted anyone on this forum. My posts were always based on facts. And now i am insulted by a moderator and the other moderators seem to think it's ok. I will not tolerate this situation. So, unless Denes gets a clear, public warning or he apologises for what he said about me, i will quit this forum soon.

Posted by: johnny_bi June 18, 2005 09:48 pm
I know that this thread regards the Romanian & Hungarian war crimes, but what about the Germans...

I remember my grand father saying that he saw many Germans gathered together at Ocnita (near Teaca - between Bistrita and Tg-Mures) and being beated by the Romanians (he told me that they were soldiers or gendarms)... There were Romanian warcrimes against the Germans? (Soviets excluded).
As a side note, I observed that the Romanians had a very good opinion about Germans. (actually Saxons)

Posted by: Imperialist June 18, 2005 09:53 pm
Agarici, Dragos03, relax.
If members were accused of extremism, xenophobic, Victor was among "us" too:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=274&st=45

He brought into discussion the skinned alive incident. And he also gave a source!
Apparently his source wasnt good enough either. dry.gif

[edit -- OK, he didnt actually bring it into discussion, but he confirmed it thru the source in his reply to D-13th]

Posted by: Agarici June 18, 2005 10:04 pm
QUOTE (johnny_bi @ Jun 18 2005, 09:36 PM)


It is pretty sad to see that this thread became a kind of "you killed more people than we did ..."


If this is how it looks like I completely agree with you… It’s not only sad but also immoral. But in what I’m concerned I never meant something like that. And I also think that denying the facts of the past, because they could (and often they do) inflate the spirits in the present is no less sad and immoral. And interfering in the process of reconstituting the historical realities (because this is a site of military history after all) with arguments from the sphere of modern ethnic prejudice is not useful and it's incorrect.

Example: two communities, a conflict in the past, one of the parts did the majority of the killing, and brutal ones - but we should keep quiet about that because from today’s point of view it seems incorrect and prejudiced that there’s mainly one to blame, and this could be harmful for the present relations between them. Oh, and it is also embarrassing for some…

Posted by: dragos June 18, 2005 10:26 pm
For the sake of constructive discussion, avoid getting personal.

The new Forum Guidelines on personal issues:
QUOTE
13. Issues and personal problems between members should be settled in private, with the request to not make use of insults or threats, which will result in the banning of the member responsible for it.

Posted by: Alexandru H. June 18, 2005 10:51 pm
From what I saw, Denes started this personal attack business, accusing some posters of extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views, and even asked for harsher enforcement of the forum rules for them, in other words warning or banning the offenders.

Dragos03 asked for the right thing (I never insulted anyone on this forum. My posts were always based on facts. And now i am insulted by a moderator and the other moderators seem to think it's ok. I will not tolerate this situation. So, unless Denes gets a clear, public warning or he apologises for what he said about me, i will quit this forum soon.) and the administrators should take a better look in their homegarden. I know that the new rules forbid us from being harsh on the admins, but this is one of those situations when they shouldn't stick together, for the sake of leadership...

Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 01:43 am
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Jun 18 2005, 10:41 PM)
It is a shame to this forum that this guy can be a moderator.

QUOTE
I never insulted anyone on this forum.


I see a blatant contradiction here.
Try at least to be consistent and not to scream 'thief'...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 02:01 am
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 03:27 AM)
Do you also have some arguments for dismissing this book as a source? I would very much like to hear them, if they exist.

Even without getting into the details of this book (I don't have it handy anyway), it's enough to observe that it was published by Editura Politica (not even by Editura Militara - a much more appropriate publishing forum for such a work that pretends to be a history book), in 1985, at the height of Ceausescu's national-communist regime. This detail alone would classify the book as a politically loaded one, published under strict supervision of Communist apparatchicks, thus clearly having a political goal, so it could be dismissed as a historically reliable secondary source by anyone genuinely interested in history.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 02:20 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Jun 19 2005, 03:53 AM)
Agarici, Dragos03, relax.
If members were accused of extremism, xenophobic, Victor was among "us" too:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=274&st=45

He brought into discussion the skinned alive incident. And he also gave a source!
Apparently his source wasnt good enough either. dry.gif

[edit -- OK, he didnt actually bring it into discussion, but he confirmed it thru the source in his reply to D-13th]

Divide et impera, Imperialist? wink.gif
Nice try...

Gen. Dénes

P.S. I'll return to the Secicar incident later on, when I'll find some more time.

Posted by: Imperialist June 19, 2005 06:41 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 02:01 AM)

Even without getting into the details of this book (I don't have it handy anyway), it's enough to observe that it was published by Editura Politica (not even by Editura Militara - a much more appropriate publishing forum for such a work that pretends to be a history book), in 1985, at the height of Ceausescu's national-communist regime. This detail alone would classify the book as a politically loaded one, published under strict supervision of Communist apparatchicks, thus clearly having a political goal, so it could be dismissed as a historically reliable secondary source by anyone genuinely interested in history.

Gen. Dénes

The dismissal of a book because of the Editura that published it is completely unfair and unacademical. Its the same with attacking an idea because of the person that issues it. Editura Political published dozens of serious books, does it mean they are unreliable and secondary sources? Just like that, en masse? Wow. Years of reading blown away in just a sentence.
And if you dont have the book at hand, why did you intervene in such a radical fashion? If you want to disprove this info you have to go into the details of the book, not dismiss it for the Editura that published it.
I wouldnt have intervened any more, were it not for this attack on Editura Politica. Many of the books I have are from that publishing house, and many did I use in my papers. I sure wouldnt like for someone to come and argue my papers are useless because their sources are corrupted by their publisher or by the time period they were published in.

take care




Posted by: sid guttridge June 19, 2005 09:52 am
Hoi Alexandru H.,

A small apology. Having re-read your first two posts on Flamanzi, I think I may have been a bit over critical.

I was reacting to the part in your first post where you wrote "The village is now destroyed" and your clarification in your second post where you wrote "By destroyed I don't mean that the village doesn't exist any more (it very much exists)."

My point about coming away from the first post with a different impression from the second still stands, but you were absolutely right to clarify your original post and I was wrong to say anything that might discourage you from doing so.

My apologies.

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge June 19, 2005 09:58 am
Hi Agarici,

I also owe you an apology. You did, indeed, not bring up the Flamanzi episode. I can only plead confusion as a consequence of trying to hold three or four conversations simultaneously.

Are your seconds still coming round? If so, I chose Cricket to the death, on the grounds that nobody can learn the rules overnight and be ready by dawn the next morning, which should give me a significant advantage.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Alexandru H. June 19, 2005 10:17 am
Sid made a joke ohmy.gif

Thank you, Sid! Apologies accepted... By "destroyed" I merely meant the spirit of the village not the burning of everything in sight...

Posted by: sid guttridge June 19, 2005 10:17 am
Hi Agarici,

Having got the pleasanteries out the way, to business.

If there is something about skinning in "Horthyist-Fascis Terror.......", please stop implying that there is and give me the reference so I can check it. By making the insinuation without any evidence you are displaying precisely the sort of sloppily vague insinuation that I am questioning.

Of course I read the rest. Do you not realise that if one accusation is found to be false, it throws doubt on all the others? It shouldn't, because they should each stand on their own evidence. But that is not how the general reader will view it.

So, a straight answer to a straight question would be appreciated: Is there a reference to skinning in Horthyist-Fascist Terror....." or not? If so, where?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: sid guttridge June 19, 2005 10:44 am
Hi Dragos03,

It is not hard to believe that most of us are capable of dreadful things, but if a direct accusation is made I want to see the evidence. Is this wrong?

"Horthyist-Fascist Terror......" is full of sourced acusations that are far more plausible than the supposed skinning episode because they have analogies elsewhere. Not only that, but none of them are as contrived as skinning. Skinning is not an act of spontaneous or mob violence like all the other acusations of murder, rape, beatings, etc. It requires calculation and expertise, so it is unlikely to occur in isolation. Human skin cannot be detached from the living human body in the way leather can from a dead animal. It is a skill specific to itself.

This particular accusation of skinning is so unique to the situation (unless of course Agarici can come up with his implied reference in "Horthyist-Fascis Terror.....") that it must be questioned, especially as it remains without supporting evidence, or even circumstantial evidence.

It is vitally important in such situations to stick to the established facts. The only people who benefit from turning rumour into facts in the public mind are the sort of people who seek to benefit from inter-ethnic hatred. There is already quite enough evidence of other atrocities. Why this eagerness to manufacture more by lowering our standards of evidence?

I have simply asked for evidence of this particular incident. So far all we have is hear-say.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge June 19, 2005 11:01 am
Hi Guys,

We all have an equal right to offer an opinion, but not all opinions are equally valid. It is therefore perfectly reasonable to ask for sources. How else can one differentiate between informed and uninformed opinion?

It is also perfectly reasonable for the moderators to require us to "play the ball, not the man".

Cheers.

Sid.

Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 11:05 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Jun 19 2005, 12:41 PM)
The dismissal of a book because of the Editura that published it is completely unfair and unacademical.

I assume that's your personal opinion.

My approach is that one should select the sources for a serious historical study appropriately if he/she doesn't want to be mislead. To me, a publishing house stricktly supervised by the Communist Party in the 1980s, at the height of Ceausescu's reign, is unreliable, as historical facts might be manipulated for the sake of a certain political goal.
This is my personal approach, of course.

QUOTE
Its the same with attacking an idea because of the person that issues it.

Yes, correct. I would not quote ever certain persons who discredited themselves in a serious study I author. Would you quote, for example, Ceausescu on matters of history? Or Funar on matters of inter-ethnic relations and how to solve the existing problems? I wouldn't.

QUOTE
And if you dont have the book at hand, why did you intervene in such a radical fashion?


Because I've read it at the time when it was published, so I do know what's inside the covers.

QUOTE
Editura Political published dozens of serious books, does it mean they are unreliable and secondary sources? Just like that, en masse?

Yes, again. I would not use for my studies history books issued by this publishing house in the 1980s.

Please list works related to the history of Rumania, between 1930-1980, published by Editura Politica in the 1980s, that you have found reliable, so we can see your study methods.

QUOTE
I sure wouldnt like for someone to come and argue my papers are useless because their sources are corrupted by their publisher or by the time period they were published in.

One of the first things I do when opening a history book for the first time is to check out the bibliography. The sources listed denote a lot about the book I am about to read.
But that's only my approach, of course.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist June 19, 2005 11:42 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 11:05 AM)
To me, a publishing house stricktly supervised by the Communist Party in the 1980s, at the height of Ceausescu's reign, is unreliable, as historical facts might be manipulated for the sake of a certain political goal.
This is my personal approach, of course.

Yes, correct. I would not quote ever certain persons who discredited themselves in a serious study I author. Would you quote, for example, Ceausescu on matters of history? Or Funar on matters of inter-ethnic relations and how to solve the existing problems? I wouldn't.

One of the first things I do when opening a history book for the first time is to check out the bibliography. The sources listed denote a lot about the book I am about to read.
But that's only my approach, of course.

Gen. Dénes

On your 1st point.
Following that logic, the entire academical history of Romania in the last 50 years is thrown at the garbage because you think the times were stinky.
I dont agree with such generalisations and simplifications.

On your 2nd point.
Well, the question is hypothetical, depends on what the paper is about. But:
Yes, I think I would. So as to get as many points of view as possible on a historical event.
The reader will make his mind of what point of view is right.
Thus, even if I do say in different places what the current consensus is about those events, the reader can choose the interpretation closest to his mind. This was a common practice in controversial books that needed to go through censorship in the communist era.
As a sidenote, Ceausescu's opinions on things are hard to find these days. I searched a book with his speeches for one of my researches and found none. (apart from a lot of books with small introductive speeches). Where did all those books go?

On the 3rd point.
Doing that is one thing, dismissing the whole paper/book because you have a certain view on a publisher, thats totally different and worring.

Let me give you just a few example of books published at Editura Politica. I have them at hand:

Dwight D. Eisenhower "Cruciada in Europa"; 1975
Charles de Gaulle "Memorii de Razboi"; 1969
Marcel Jullian "Batalia Angliei"; 1968
Walter Lord "Pearl Harbour"; 1970

And several others I dont have at hand right now, but among which also books written by Alvin Toffler and published by Ed.Pol.!

I guess these books were seriously hampered with by the Party and are probably full of politically driven "corrections" in them.
Too bad universities still list them on their compulsory course bibliography.
Besides, one wonders why in the "grand" days of capitalism we have to rely on crappy old communist books. Really wonder now...


Posted by: sid guttridge June 19, 2005 12:01 pm
Hi Imperialist,

In a society where there is no independent publishing industry for political reasons, it is always necessary to be suspicious of official publications that touch on the political sphere.

Romania is one such example. In the military field, the years 1941-44 disappeared almost completely from puiblications between 1947 and the 1980s.

While one cannot dismiss everything written in those years, one must view it in the knowledge that it was not produced in an era of academic freedom and so might be prone to distortions or omissions.

The mere fact that there was an English-language edition of "Horthyist-Fascist Terror....", for which there was no demand or market, tends to imply that, whether accurate or inacurate, the book was seen as a propaganda tool. The copy I have got was originally a gift to the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist June 19, 2005 12:21 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 19 2005, 12:01 PM)


In a society where there is no independent publishing industry for political reasons, it is always necessary to be suspicious of official publications that touch on the political sphere.

Romania is one such example. In the military field, the years 1941-44 disappeared almost completely from puiblications between 1947 and the 1980s.

While one cannot dismiss everything written in those years, one must view it in the knowledge that it was not produced in an era of academic freedom and so might be prone to distortions or omissions.

The mere fact that there was an English-language edition of "Horthyist-Fascist Terror....", for which there was no demand or market, tends to imply that, whether accurate or inacurate, the book was seen as a propaganda tool. The copy I have got was originally a gift to the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
Romania is one such example. In the military field, the years 1941-44 disappeared almost completely from puiblications between 1947 and the 1980s.


Not true. For example I have at hand (meaning its visible in my bookcase, I dont have to search it harder) "Marea Conflagratie a Secolului XX. Al Doilea Razboi Mondial", written in 1974! Yes, it politically interprets the political side of WWII, but an average intelligence person can spot the propaganda a mile away. The propaganda I ignore, and I use the good fruits. Why should I throw the whole book away?
So I wonder where you got the info from. That should say something to you about the source you got it from. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
The mere fact that there was an English-language edition of "Horthyist-Fascist Terror....", for which there was no demand or market, tends to imply that, whether accurate or inacurate, the book was seen as a propaganda tool.


Completely agree. But thats not something new.
Besides, what was the act of propaganda, putting the info in english to have better circulation or falsifying the info?


Look for example here:

http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/rum.htm

Why would someone publish a book "Genocide in Transylvania - Nation on the Death Row" or "The Origins of the Rumanians"; "The Daco-Roman Legend" or "Witnesses to Cultural Genocide".

Is(nt) that propaganda?




take care



Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 12:25 pm
Mr. Imperialist, I don't know to which post you have answered to, but apparently not mine. Let me point out why.

QUOTE
Following that logic, the entire academical history of Romania in the last 50 years is thrown at the garbage because you think the times were stinky.
  I dont agree with such generalisations and simplifications.

Your interpretation of what I've said is totally erroneous. The logic you're referring to is certainly not mine.

What I've said is that books related to Rumania's recent history [not the entire spectrum], published by Editura Politica [not the entire Rumanian book publishing industry], in the 1980s [not in the entire post-war period], in my eyes, are suspicious and I wouldn't use them in my research.
Just as an example, there are many interesting books published by Editura Militara, related to the Rumanian Army (the anti-Axis campaign, of course, as the whole anti-Soviet campaign was mostly ignored), which I already used and would use in the future, too. But I would disregard historical works about Rumnaia between 1930-1989, issued by the publishing house of the Communist Party, in the 1980s.

QUOTE
Yes, I think I would. So as to get as many points of view as possible on a historical event.
The reader will make his mind of what point of view is right.

The book I was originally referring to is not the opinion of certain authors, but is rather a collection of twisted 'historical facts', which were meant to be shown as the ultimate truth. A big difference.
You're approach is valid when directly quoting a certain person in order to clash ideas. I agree with it. However, my point was totally other.

QUOTE
Doing that is one thing, dismissing the whole paper/book because you have a certain view on a publisher, thats totally different and worring.

See above.

QUOTE
Let me give you just a few example of books published at Editura Politica. I have them at hand:

Dwight D. Eisenhower "Cruciada in Europa"; 1975
Charles de Gaulle "Memorii de Razboi"; 1969
Marcel Jullian "Batalia Angliei"; 1968
Walter Lord "Pearl Harbour"; 1970

And several others I dont have at hand right now, but among which also books written by Alvin Toffler and published by Ed.Pol.!

Again, completely off the target. Thus all your following reasonings are irrelevant to my original point.

Let me repeat my original question:
QUOTE
Please list works related to the history of Rumania, between 1930-1980 , published by Editura Politica in the 1980s , that you have found reliable , so we can see your study methods.


If you intend to engage in a debate, then please stick to the other party's exact words and don't try to add a spin to them. I don't like when people put words in my (virtual) mouth that I've never said.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist June 19, 2005 12:41 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 12:25 PM)


Let me repeat my original question:
QUOTE
Please list works related to the history of Rumania, between 1930-1980 , published by Editura Politica in the 1980s , that you have found reliable , so we can see your study methods.


If you intend to engage in a debate, then please stick to the other party's exact words and don't try to add a spin to them.

Would that change anything. I'd say I've found it reliable, you'd say no.
I did say I found the Editura Politica a very useful and informative publishing house. 1960s, late 1970s or mid-80s, this remains to be seen depending on the books I have at hand. I will not go about ransacking my book place to find exactly a mid-1980s book. If I do, I'll let you know.
The spin can appear due to various causes. Like the other parties' initial attitude, the evolving discussion, misunderstandings, incomplete data or faulty reading (happened before too). Are you implying it a conspiracy and I intend to discredit you or something? Please dont.

take care


Posted by: Victor June 19, 2005 01:50 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Jun 18 2005, 06:41 PM)
Was anything extremist or xenofobic in my posts? Was there a lack of souces? I spent one day to talk to an entire village before writing what i wrote.

I believe it was the last phrase, which was taken a little out of context by Denes, not the Traznea incident, which IMO you researched pretty well. That particular phrase could be interpreted as a dangerously radical generalization. There were Romanians that also comitted attrocities. That does not mean by default that any Romanian was pre-disposed at making such crimes. The same goes for Russians, Hungarians, Germans etc.

Trying to prove that Secicar was skinned by relating to other warcimes comitted by other Hungarian soldiers/civilians isn't a viable solution IMO and should be avoided. The men that killed Secicar were most likely others than those that killed the people in Traznea and other villages in 1940. We don't know who they were exactly, we don't know their psychological profiles. We just have an eye-witness (the old woman) that told a story. Wether it is correct or "embelished" (I heard even more horrible accounts of Secicar's ordeal) it will be difficult to establish. However, we can't reject it on the simple grounds that it is just an oral testimony. Until someone will dig out an official report on Secicar's death (maybe from the Gendarmerie archives) it is all we have and specullations on the "culture of skinning" should be avoided as they usually lead to faulty generalizations. To an old woman, "skinning" could be just several cuts made on the body of the victim.

The "Fascist-Horthyst terror" could indeed be questioned as a reliable source of information. Even the title is a typical Communist manifesto. Fascism was in Italy, not Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Croatia etc. Also "Hortysm" did not exist to my knowledge. Leaving these details aside, I believe that this book should be always double checked with a more reliable source. Unfortunately, there aren't many serious studies on the subject post-1996 (to the best of knowledge). But this book wasn't the source on the info on Secicar's death.

Dragos03, Denes is a moderator only in the ARR part of the forum, where his knoweledge on the subject is superior to most of us here, not also in other sections as well. He is practically similar to the hosts on AHF several years ago.

Posted by: johnny_bi June 19, 2005 01:54 pm
QUOTE ("Sid")
The mere fact that there was an English-language edition of "Horthyist-Fascist Terror....", for which there was no demand or market, tends to imply that, whether accurate or inacurate, the book was seen as a propaganda tool. The copy I have got was originally a gift to the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs.


This is quite funny... If you compare this to Corvinus library "machine", the above mention book is just a scent... - just an observation...

Any answer to my above question regarding the Germans?

Posted by: sid guttridge June 19, 2005 01:58 pm
Hi Imperialst,

As a a matter of interest, how does your reference to a poltical book on a political subject address, let alone contradict, my point about the yawning gap over 1941-44 in the Romanian military historiography of the Communist period before the 1980s?

In a few days I will give you a short book list from my own shelves giving some examples of the yawning gap in the military historiography of Romania between 1941 and 1944 that ocurred in the Communist era.

I am rather surprised you haven't noticed it before.

Cheers,

Sid.




Posted by: Victor June 19, 2005 02:00 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 18 2005, 06:31 PM)
I am very sorry to see that lately posts of certain members with extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views have flourished, who propagate unproven facts, with no apparent reaction from the moderators' part, casting a shadow on this forum, directly affecting its credibility.

There were indeed some interpretable phrasings in some posts, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were extremist, chauvinistic or xenophobic. A little nationalistic maybe. There was no invitation to hate, just a listing of some facts, with sometimes debatable sources. There is a little nationalist residing in all of us. This is why such discussions should be handled with calm.

Posted by: johnny_bi June 19, 2005 02:07 pm
QUOTE ("Sid")
As a a matter of interest, how does your reference to a poltical book on a political subject address, let alone contradict, my point about the yawning gap over 1941-44 in the Romanian military historiography of the Communist period before the 1980s?


Actually the question was not for me, but... Regarding those "situations" that involved killings of "others" nationality in Transylvania, one can find many witnesses today... As I have said I have talked to such witnesses myself. Those witnesses have no hardfeelings against one or another...

I ask myself if such witnesses tell their story, would they be called as "nationalist"?

Posted by: Imperialist June 19, 2005 02:09 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 19 2005, 01:58 PM)


As a a matter of interest, how does your reference to a poltical book on a political subject address, let alone contradict, my point about the yawning gap over 1941-44 in the Romanian military historiography of the Communist period before the 1980s?


Its not a political book!!!!!
Its very much military history, only that the political-diplomatic context is mentioned, and thats where the politics comes in.
The rest of it is listings of Army groups strengths, maps, analysis etc.
Its a military history book. It contradicts you.

take care

Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 02:23 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 19 2005, 08:00 PM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 18 2005, 06:31 PM)
I am very sorry to see that lately posts of certain members with extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views have flourished, who propagate unproven facts, with no apparent reaction from the moderators' part, casting a shadow on this forum, directly affecting its credibility.

There were indeed some interpretable phrasings in some posts, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were extremist, chauvinistic or xenophobic. A little nationalistic maybe. There was no invitation to hate, just a listing of some facts, with sometimes debatable sources.

By listing similarly looking barbaric incidents from the Middle Ages, then 1940, 1956 and 1989 - reportedly done in cold blood by Hungarians - and pointing out that such a barbaric 'culture' pertinent to the Hungarians existed all along (and presumably still exists and will ever exist), and implying some sort of pattern typical to the Hungarian people, in my eyes fully fits the adjectives I listed: extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic.

If one is "little nationalistic", then he/she should present the qualitites of his/her own people and not try to denigrate or villify other people. Once this is done, IMO nationalism turns into chauvinism. Lately, this has happened on this very forum, hence my upset and call for moderation, for the sake of this forum I fully enjoy.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos03 June 19, 2005 02:46 pm
I repeat: there was nothing extremist, xenofobic or chauvinistic in my posts. I only wrote about the Treznea incident and simply told Sid that, if horrible things happened at Treznea, it is possible that they also happended in other places. I didn't say the pilot was skinned, i only said that it's possible. Also, i am not the one who wrote about the incidents from the Middle Ages or 1989, nor did i imply that the Hungarians are a barbaric culture.

Yet, i was insulted (being the only one quoted in Denes's original post). Now i am insulted again with the same adjectives. The forum rules are for all, including moderators. So, if Denes doesn't apologise (or gets a warning), i will quit this forum.

Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 02:55 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 19 2005, 07:50 PM)
Trying to prove that Secicar was skinned by relating to other warcimes comitted by other Hungarian soldiers/civilians isn't a viable solution IMO and should be avoided.

My point, exactly.

QUOTE
We just have an eye-witness (the old woman) that told a story.

The book of Mr. Chereches, In cautarea eroilor (Looking for Heroes), which gives the fullest account of the incident - as seen by the author - and the most probable source for the story repeated later on, mentions that the old lady was executed on spot by a Hungarian soldier.
I'll return to this book and Secicar's case later on.

QUOTE
Until someone will dig out an official report on Secicar's death (maybe from the Gendarmerie archives) it is all we have and specullations on the "culture of skinning" should be avoided as they usually lead to faulty generalizations.

Very well said. I couldn't have said it better myself.

QUOTE
The "Fascist-Horthyst terror" could indeed be questioned as a reliable source of information. Even the title is a typical Communist manifesto. Fascism was in Italy, not Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Croatia etc. Also "Hortysm" did not exist to my knowledge. Leaving these details aside, I believe that this book should be always double checked with a more reliable source.

My point, exactly.

QUOTE
Dragos03, Denes is a moderator only in the ARR part of the forum.

Questioning my co-moderator status and linking it to my alleged faulty personal character, IMO amounts to a clear personal attack. However, I don't ask for an apology or the issue of a warning to the perpetrator, as I see no point for doing this and, moreover, I am used to be targeted by certain individuals.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Agarici June 19, 2005 03:07 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 02:01 AM)
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 03:27 AM)
Do you also have some arguments for dismissing this book as a source? I would very much like to hear them, if they exist.

Even without getting into the details of this book (I don't have it handy anyway), it's enough to observe that it was published by Editura Politica (not even by Editura Militara - a much more appropriate publishing forum for such a work that pretends to be a history book), in 1985, at the height of Ceausescu's national-communist regime. This detail alone would classify the book as a politically loaded one, published under strict supervision of Communist apparatchicks, thus clearly having a political goal, so it could be dismissed as a historically reliable secondary source by anyone genuinely interested in history.

Gen. Dénes


These are your only arguments?? I can’t believe my eyes. Seeing how vocal you were against this book I’ve expected to see entire list of reasons - or at least some credible ones - to be put forward. With what you have, you are wasting everybody’s time. I expected some arguments from within the book, dealing with the way the documentation was done and the sources were used, and you come with nothing. You tell us that you have red the book in 1985 and you use your recollections to make assertions about it. Let me ask you, how old were you in 1985 and which was your level of historical expertise back then?

Apparently you have failed to see what my point was in making the difference between the conclusions of a book (aka the propaganda message, in this case) and the facts documented. Even I have more arguments against “Teroarea horthysto-fascista…” that you presented here, but they are entirely insufficient for it’s dismissal as a secondary source and more than that - have nothing to do with the quality of the primary sources used. The authors - Ardeleanu and Musat - were professional historians, although close to the Communist Party line, so that’s why the entire part of the conclusions should be dismisses from the beginning. Probably the most compromising for the book is it’s title.

PS: for those of you too young, or who left Romania for a long time, or who’ve never seen a totalitarian regime from inside, you should do some research about how the censorship worhed and how a book needed to look like to be given the green light for the print. This could give you some hints about how a book published in that period should be revised (this sounds for Victor too). And Denes, maybe you should do a little more documented research about the Romanian communism before uncritically accrediting clichés like “national-communist regime”. We could rather speak of national-communist rhetoric of the regime. For your info I was in Romania that time, quite able to realize what was going around (from my age point of view) and now the study of those realties is not far from my field of expertise.

Posted by: Agarici June 19, 2005 03:48 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 02:23 PM)
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 19 2005, 08:00 PM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 18 2005, 06:31 PM)
I am very sorry to see that lately posts of certain members with extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic views have flourished, who propagate unproven facts, with no apparent reaction from the moderators' part, casting a shadow on this forum, directly affecting its credibility.

There were indeed some interpretable phrasings in some posts, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were extremist, chauvinistic or xenophobic. A little nationalistic maybe. There was no invitation to hate, just a listing of some facts, with sometimes debatable sources.

By listing similarly looking barbaric incidents from the Middle Ages, then 1940, 1956 and 1989 - reportedly done in cold blood by Hungarians - and pointing out that such a barbaric 'culture' pertinent to the Hungarians existed all along (and presumably still exists and will ever exist), and implying some sort of pattern typical to the Hungarian people, in my eyes fully fits the adjectives I listed: extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic.

If one is "little nationalistic", then he/she should present the qualitites of his/her own people and not try to denigrate or villify other people. Once this is done, IMO nationalism turns into chauvinism. Lately, this has happened on this very forum, hence my upset and call for moderation, for the sake of this forum I fully enjoy.

Gen. Dénes


Mr. Denes, your appreciation of the facts is irrelevant for me, since in this matter I find you far from being objective. What you presented here is what you think I was trying to imply, and you are wrong with your guess. You could be right only if the facts presented by me wouldn’t have been real, but unfortunately they were, from what I know. You reiterate, again and again, the same pattern of thinking which say “if you bring forward the crimes committed in the past and if they are the product of the members of one community you have something against that community, so you should keep quiet”. I’m quite tired of this so-called argument, it is illogical and leading nowhere. I will not be able to change your mentality. If some conclusions are drawn from the facts mentioned by me towards any kind of responsibility or guilt for the contemporary Hungarians, these belong to you and not to me. But let me tell you this is quite far from what the mind set of a professional historian should be, in my opinion.

And now I will explain that one more time: Sid dismissed the story of the (German ethnic) IAR 80 pilot downed and then skinned alive by the Hungarian locals on two accounts:
- the lack of sources
- the idea that such an event would be implausible up to impossible to happen in modern times unless “a subculture of such facts existed”.

While he was right in both his objections, I suggested with facts that such a subculture could have existed. And culture/subculture, as social science concepts, have little or nothing to do (and in any case do not equal) with genes and innate/inherited treats. I did not come with sources in my first post because the facts were common knowledge and too widely debated to be considered uncertain. So if you have arguments to say that those events didn’t take place please bring them forward. I will not answer to any other general comments, because as I’ve already said this is leading nowhere. And from now on please send your offensive observations about me being racist, xenophobe and chauvinist via PM, it’s not necessary to be (repeatedly) rude in public.

EDIT: In what I’m concerned I also reject the epithet “nationalist”, generously granted by the moderators - but without pointing out to anybody. If you read what I said and correctly understand the concepts used, there are no premises for such a conclusion. And since this is a personal remark and you don’t know me in person you are deprived of that argument too.

Posted by: Imperialist June 19, 2005 04:18 pm
Agarici, Dragos03, Johnny, I made a new thread.
To avoid further off-topics here or something else that may cause a mod intervention.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2233&st=0&#entry34730

I dont know if the new thread has any point for us who "know" some things, but let me know what you think there.

take care

Posted by: Victor June 19, 2005 07:13 pm
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 12:04 AM)
Example: two communities, a conflict in the past, one of the parts did the majority of the killing, and brutal ones - but we should keep quiet about that because from today’s point of view it seems incorrect and prejudiced that there’s mainly one to blame, and this could be harmful for the present relations between them. Oh, and it is also embarrassing for some…


And what would be insinuating here? Is it so hard to speak frankly?

QUOTE (Agarici)
EDIT: In what I’m concerned I also reject the epithet “nationalist”, generously granted by the moderators - but without pointing out to anybody. If you read what I said and correctly understand the concepts used, there are no premises for such a conclusion. And since this is a personal remark and you don’t know me in person you are deprived of that argument too.


You also don't know other members in person, but you had no problem assuming things about them just from their location and nationality. But that is another matter.

The "nationalist" epithet isn't something bad, at least IMO, when used reasonably. I myself am one and despite much BS I have to put up with, I am proud to be Romanian. The nationalist I had in mind was dragos03, because ever since I knew him from different WWII forums (AHF and Feldgrau) he always defended Romanians when it was the case, usually with evidence and reason, just like I tried to do. I would be very sorry if he chose to leave the forum, even though we had different opinions on some matters.

You I don't know that well and don't really want to, but my opinion is that you are wrong. Regarding the "subculture" you tried to prove it existed. You presented several examples, of which one was in 1601 and it did not involve skinning, but burning. The example for 1940 was a lynching as was the one in 1989. Only the one from 1956 actually presumed skinning alive. IMO unconvicing and seems more like specullating. Btw, you haven't answered Sid's question about episodes from "Teroarea Fasicsto-Hortysta" with skinning alive.



Posted by: Victor June 19, 2005 07:28 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 04:23 PM)
There were indeed some interpretable phrasings in some posts, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were extremist, chauvinistic or xenophobic. A little nationalistic maybe. There was no invitation to hate, just a listing of some facts, with sometimes debatable sources. [/QUOTE]
By listing similarly looking barbaric incidents from the Middle Ages, then 1940, 1956 and 1989 - reportedly done in cold blood by Hungarians - and pointing out that such a barbaric 'culture' pertinent to the Hungarians existed all along (and presumably still exists and will ever exist), and implying some sort of pattern typical to the Hungarian people, in my eyes fully fits the adjectives I listed: extremist, xenofobic and chauvinistic.

If one is "little nationalistic", then he/she should present the qualitites of his/her own people and not try to denigrate or villify other people. Once this is done, IMO nationalism turns into chauvinism. Lately, this has happened on this very forum, hence my upset and call for moderation, for the sake of this forum I fully enjoy.

Gen. Dénes

But that wasn't dragos03 who listed those events, it was Agarici. Dragos03 just presented the Treznea incident and made a debatable comment. He did not vilify or try to denigrate others, at least not IMO. I think a clarification is neccessary to settle things out.

Posted by: Dénes June 19, 2005 09:45 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 20 2005, 01:28 AM)
But that wasn't dragos03 who listed those events, it was Agarici. Dragos03 just presented the Treznea incident and made a debatable comment. He did not vilify or try to denigrate others, at least not IMO. I think a clarification is neccessary to settle things out.

Please note that when I made my initial comment yesterday, following my return from Europe, that stirred the subsequent furor, I wasn't referring to a particular member, but several ones. Dragos03 was one of them, as I directly quoted his text. Agarici was another one, as I summarized his inflammatory post. There are others, too.
I hope this clarifies the issue.

I would be sorry to see Dragos03 or any other current members leave, as it wouldn't solve any issues, just would leave them hanging in the (virtual) air, unanswered.

We are all adults here and joined the forum to debate issues. I hope we all can handle criticism, even if it may sound harsh to the addressee. If I would have not be able to do the very same thing, believe me I would have left long time ago, as I was personally targeted repeatedly thoroughout my activity on this forum. As it turned out, some of those are no longer with us here and I still am.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Victor June 20, 2005 05:13 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 11:45 PM)
We are all adults here and joined the forum to debate issues. I hope we all can handle criticism, even if it may sound harsh to the addressee. If I would have not be able to do the very same thing, believe me I would have left long time ago, as I was personally targeted repeatedly thoroughout my activity on this forum. As it turned out, some of those are no longer with us here and I still am.

Gen. Dénes

Criticism is one thing, accusations of xenophobia and chauvinism are more serious and should not be used so easily IMO.

Posted by: dragos03 June 20, 2005 02:18 pm
Thank you Victor for your attitude on this issue.

I also think that we are all adults here and we can discuss based on facts, without insults. I quoted my sources on the Treznea story. When i researched it, i asked people from all sides, including the Hungarians.

Denes didn't quote any clear source for his version. The fact that he only relied on Hungarian sources proves his lack of objectivity. Instead of facts, he turned to insults. It seems that we're not all adults on this forum after all.

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 03:03 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 19 2005, 07:13 PM)
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 12:04 AM)
Example: two communities, a conflict in the past, one of the parts did the majority of the killing, and brutal ones - but we should keep quiet about that because from today’s point of view it seems incorrect and prejudiced that there’s mainly one to blame, and this could be harmful for the present relations between them. Oh, and it is also embarrassing for some…


And what would be insinuating here? Is it so hard to speak frankly?

QUOTE (Agarici)
EDIT: In what I’m concerned I also reject the epithet “nationalist”, generously granted by the moderators - but without pointing out to anybody. If you read what I said and correctly understand the concepts used, there are no premises for such a conclusion. And since this is a personal remark and you don’t know me in person you are deprived of that argument too.


You also don't know other members in person, but you had no problem assuming things about them just from their location and nationality. But that is another matter.

The "nationalist" epithet isn't something bad, at least IMO, when used reasonably. I myself am one and despite much BS I have to put up with, I am proud to be Romanian. The nationalist I had in mind was dragos03, because ever since I knew him from different WWII forums (AHF and Feldgrau) he always defended Romanians when it was the case, usually with evidence and reason, just like I tried to do. I would be very sorry if he chose to leave the forum, even though we had different opinions on some matters.

You I don't know that well and don't really want to, but my opinion is that you are wrong. Regarding the "subculture" you tried to prove it existed. You presented several examples, of which one was in 1601 and it did not involve skinning, but burning. The example for 1940 was a lynching as was the one in 1989. Only the one from 1956 actually presumed skinning alive. IMO unconvicing and seems more like specullating. Btw, you haven't answered Sid's question about episodes from "Teroarea Fasicsto-Hortysta" with skinning alive.

I have to say that your post was quite an unpleasant surprise for me. I thought you are another kind of person. But never mind…

QUOTE VICTOR:
“Agarici: ‘Example: two communities, a conflict in the past, one of the parts did the majority of the killing, and brutal ones - but we should keep quiet about that because from today’s point of view it seems incorrect and prejudiced that there’s mainly one to blame, and this could be harmful for the present relations between them. Oh, and it is also embarrassing for some…’

Victor: ‘And what would be insinuating here? Is it so hard to speak frankly?’”

You didn’t understand al all what I was trying to say. I was implying any such reality, not only the abuses of the Hungarians in North-Western Transylvania. I had in mind the deportation of Gypsies by the Romanians during WW2, and the executions which occurred during the reinstauration of Romanian administration in Bassarabia, in 1941.

QUOTE VICTOR:
“You also don't know other members in person, but you had no problem assuming things about them just from their location and nationality. But that is another matter.”

When exactly have I done that? I think you are taking me as someone else.

QUOTE VICTOR:
“You I don't know that well and don't really want to…”

Thank you. I think I should use that as a motto in each of my post from now on, so that your mature and polite attitude towards a fellow member would became visible. If I remember well I never attacked, offended or had a fight with you. Unlike other members I didn’t blame you when, according to Dragos, you insisted for only a temporary ban for Alexkdl regardless his outrageous insults and threats to me and to other people; and let’s remember that unlike some of them I was right in the middle of everything. We’ve also exchanged some private messages after that incident, with a quite positive feed-back from me. Neither had I manifested the syndrome of “liberating” the forum from some administrators which control everything in spite of what the members think.
Given your above statement though, I think there is no serious chance of a neutral, unbiased discussion/attitude in here. At least Denes was man enough to tell me frankly what he think about me and I did the same. Sometimes when a dispute is heated this kind of things happen but as mature persons we can deal with them so I have no hard feelings towards him. But for jumping from a difference of opinion to assertions like “I don’t like your face” there is a word in Romanian, I can’t find right now its English equivalent: “mojicie”...
If my presence here is disturbing for you, you can tell me that straight. Or you can make a list with the members you don’t like and kick them out, it is your site after all.

Posted by: dragos June 20, 2005 03:46 pm
QUOTE
If I remember well I never attacked, offended or had a fight with you. Unlike other members I didn’t blame you when, according to Dragos, you insisted for only a temporary ban for Alexkdl regardless his outrageous insults and threats to me and to other people


I assure you that at the moment when both Victor and me discovered the threats and insults sent by PM by that member, none of us had second thoughts on banning him permanently. Having clarified this, let's move on.

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 03:55 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 8 2005, 09:23 AM)
Hi D13th-Mytzu,

I tend to agree. Angry civilians in many countries beat downed airmen to death (i.e. in Germany and Malta). Such a report could therefore turn up virtually anywhere.

However, while beating to death of downed airmen in the heat of the moment is commonly recorded crowd psychology, the skinning alive of someone is not. This is something that requires cold calculation and previous expertise, which implies a contemporary culture of such activities.

I think it very likely that what you say is correct. If the incident is verified, it is far more likely that the pilot was beaten to death and his body then strung up. Thereafter, rumour and/or propaganda probably exaggerated the story. Either way, it is not a happy tale.

Cheers,

Sid.


Victor and Sid,

I hope I will clarify this once and for all.

Quoting Sid, I was referring to skinning alive or other “SUCH ACTIVITIES”, which require a contemporary culture of that kind. Skinning doesn’t have a special place since the action involved means a calculate activity having as purpose or finality the killing of that person/those persons in great torment and involves sadistical acts. Is this so difficult to understand? So the activities which would qualify would be pulling out the nails as a part of beating to death, forcing a stick in someone’s mouth until it get through the other side, trying to skin a person with a fork or pulling out his eyes and putting a coin or an insignia in the orbits, pouring petrol on a person’s head and setting her on fire, raping and killing someone in front of the family and other of this kind. A culture/subculture which have tolerated such acts in big number, during a certain period of time, could have also been, in my opinion, an environment where the skinning alive of a person was plausible.

Again, I repeat: I used only well-known examples because this should have prevented, in my opinion, the useless debates around the question if they really took place or not. It seems that I was wrong. The fact that they are common knowledge was also the reason for which I didn’t mention any sources (and that I admit it was a mistake); maybe they aren’t common knowledge after all. And the case of Baba Novac was mentioned only to illustrate that, as Sid said, the practices of this kind are originated in the pre-modern age, being quite common occurrences in those times.

Posted by: Victor June 20, 2005 06:55 pm
QUOTE (Agarici)
I have to say that your post was quite an unpleasant surprise for me. I thought you are another kind of person. But never mind…


The feeling is mutual after reading your initial posts in this topic.

QUOTE (Agarici)
When exactly have I done that? I think you are taking me as someone else.


Jun 18 2005, 12:55 AM, you wrote:

QUOTE
I only speak for myself but I also I think people on this forum don’t like being patronized, neither an aggressive or arrogant stile of interaction, concealed by a few “please”, “should” or “cheers”. So in my opinion a change of attitude is badly needed from you… By the way, how many things do you know about Romania or about this part of Europe (except its place on the map), to act so self-sufficient? 


QUOTE (Agarici)
You didn’t understand al all what I was trying to say. I was implying any such reality, not only the abuses of the Hungarians in North-Western Transylvania. I had in mind the deportation of Gypsies by the Romanians during WW2, and the executions which occurred during the reinstauration of Romanian administration in Bassarabia, in 1941.


Thank you for clearing this up. My mistake.

QUOTE (Agarici)
Thank you. I think I should use that as a motto in each of my post from now on, so that your mature and polite attitude towards a fellow member would became visible. If I remember well I never attacked, offended or had a fight with you.


It is not about attacking or fighting with me. There are plenty members that had disagreed with me over the time. It is your attitude and subtle ironies that just don't make me want to befriend you. No need to feel offended about it, because it wasn't meant as an offense. We don't all have to be friends here.

QUOTE (Agarici)
Unlike other members I didn’t blame you when, according to Dragos, you insisted for only a temporary ban for Alexkdl regardless his outrageous insults and threats to me and to other people; and let’s remember that unlike some of them I was right in the middle of everything.


So that is what is really bothering you? If it makes you feel better, just yesterday I have received 142 emails from that person with "EAT SH*T AND DIE" or something like that.

QUOTE (Agarici)
Given your above statement though, I think there is no serious chance of a neutral, unbiased discussion/attitude in here


Have any of your opinions been censored here before? As for bias, none of us are bias-free, including yourself.

QUOTE (Agarici)
But for jumping from a difference of opinion to assertions like “I don’t like your face” there is a word in Romanian, I can’t find right now its English equivalent: “mojicie”...


I never said: "I don't like your face". First of all I don't cathegorize people by the way they look, but by how they act. I just said that you are right that I don't know you that well, but I don't feel the urge to get to know you better. I just don't like your attitude and I think I am entitled to my opinion. I have disagreed with many other people in the past and I would never jump from a difference of opinion to assertions like “I don’t like your face” and resent this statement.

Posted by: Victor June 20, 2005 07:09 pm
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 20 2005, 05:55 PM)
Quoting Sid, I was referring to skinning alive or other “SUCH ACTIVITIES”, which require a contemporary culture of that kind. Skinning doesn’t have a special place since the action involved means a calculate activity having as purpose or finality the killing of that person/those persons in great torment and involves sadistical acts. Is this so difficult to understand? So the activities which would qualify would be pulling out the nails as a part of beating to death, forcing a stick in someone’s mouth until it get through the other side, trying to skin a person with a fork or pulling out his eyes and putting a coin or an insignia in the orbits, pouring petrol on a person’s head and setting her on fire, raping and killing someone in front of the family and other of this kind. A culture/subculture which have tolerated such acts in big number, during a certain period of time, could have also been, in my opinion, an environment where the skinning alive of a person was plausible.

I disagree. In my opinion that is generalization that simply doesn't hold. The number of people committing attrocities is too small compared with the larger part of the population. Going by the same logic, Romanians are predisposed to cruelties because some bruttaly disfigured the bodies of a couple of MI officers during the 1989 Revolution or for beating people to death because they look like intellectuals in 1990. In such cases, where a large decree of sadism is involved, I believe it is better to judge each case in part, according to the sources available and to the individuals involved in it. Culture/subculture doesn't IMO influence maniacs that much.

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 07:24 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 20 2005, 06:55 PM)
QUOTE (Agarici)
I have to say that your post was quite an unpleasant surprise for me. I thought you are another kind of person. But never mind…


The feeling is mutual after reading your initial posts in this topic.

QUOTE (Agarici)
When exactly have I done that? I think you are taking me as someone else.


Jun 18 2005, 12:55 AM, you wrote:

QUOTE
I only speak for myself but I also I think people on this forum don’t like being patronized, neither an aggressive or arrogant stile of interaction, concealed by a few “please”, “should” or “cheers”. So in my opinion a change of attitude is badly needed from you… By the way, how many things do you know about Romania or about this part of Europe (except its place on the map), to act so self-sufficient? 



QUOTE (Agarici)
Thank you. I think I should use that as a motto in each of my post from now on, so that your mature and polite attitude towards a fellow member would became visible. If I remember well I never attacked, offended or had a fight with you.


It is not about attacking or fighting with me. There are plenty members that had disagreed with me over the time. It is your attitude and subtle ironies that just don't make me want to befriend you. No need to feel offended about it, because it wasn't meant as an offense. We don't all have to be friends here.

QUOTE (Agarici)
Given your above statement though, I think there is no serious chance of a neutral, unbiased discussion/attitude in here


Have any of your opinions been censored here before? As for bias, none of us are bias-free, including yourself.

QUOTE (Agarici)
But for jumping from a difference of opinion to assertions like “I don’t like your face” there is a word in Romanian, I can’t find right now its English equivalent: “mojicie”...


I never said: "I don't like your face". First of all I don't cathegorize people by the way they look, but by how they act. I just said that you are right that I don't know you that well, but I don't feel the urge to get to know you better. I just don't like your attitude and I think I am entitled to my opinion. I have disagreed with many other people in the past and I would never jump from a difference of opinion to assertions like “I don’t like your face” and resent this statement.


1. As an answer to your first quotation, the difference is that I while I presented some facts you made a personal remark.

2. For the second, I was reacting to another personal attack, that of Sid Guttrigge who said that I incite to ethnic hatred. I still expect his apologies for that. My reply was more substantive that the paragrapt you quoted and I told him that it is not normal to deny facts based on ignorance; if one does't know if a fact is real or not is normal to question that fact instead of denying it. And such a categorical attitude as Sid's was at that point seemed to me of the self-sufficient and patronizing type

3. As for the last three of them, I think it is obvious regardless what you're trying to say: I mentioned some facts and I clarified what I was trying to say. You cannot and would not deny the facts, instead you reveal an entire web of innuendos from which I can understand only that it seems normal to you to develop personal hardfeelings to the members of the site and react on that basis, and that you resent me because I use irony. Maybe you should close the forum or keep it for your close friends only. However, very disappointing...

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 07:46 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 20 2005, 07:09 PM)
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 20 2005, 05:55 PM)
Quoting Sid, I was referring to skinning alive or other “SUCH ACTIVITIES”, which require a contemporary culture of that kind. Skinning doesn’t have a special place since the action involved means a calculate activity having as purpose or finality the killing of that person/those persons in great torment and involves sadistical acts. Is this so difficult to understand? So the activities which would qualify would be pulling out the nails as a part of beating to death, forcing a stick in someone’s mouth until it get through the other side, trying to skin a person with a fork or pulling out his eyes and putting a coin or an insignia in the orbits, pouring petrol on a person’s head and setting her on fire, raping and killing someone in front of the family and other of this kind. A culture/subculture which have tolerated such acts in big number, during a certain period of time, could have also been, in my opinion, an environment where the skinning alive of a person was plausible.

I disagree. In my opinion that is generalization that simply doesn't hold. The number of people committing attrocities is too small compared with the larger part of the population. Going by the same logic, Romanians are predisposed to cruelties because some bruttaly disfigured the bodies of a couple of MI officers during the 1989 Revolution or for beating people to death because they look like intellectuals in 1990. In such cases, where a large decree of sadism is involved, I believe it is better to judge each case in part, according to the sources available and to the individuals involved in it. Culture/subculture doesn't IMO influence maniacs that much.


This is exactly what I meant. It is that simple and still you failed to understand; sorry. I started form a manual-type definition of culture (political, social culture) like Almond and Verba's (the same implied by Sid Gutridge I think). So in this acception the culture/subculture is circumscribed to a space (community) and time (a certain period). And you are right again, due to certain social-political features (the dissolution of authority after a totalitarian regime, the preeminence gained by so many suppressed conflicts) Romania of the post-1989 years was the stage of such a violent culture. That's why the probability of such kind of events to take place was much higher here and in that time than in other countries in that time or in nowadays Romania.

Two observations tough: the MI/USLA military were shot dead by the Army military who did not know who they were (thought they are terrorists) and then desfigurated. It is a major difference because the policemen from Harghita and Covasna were beaten/tortured to death, some by their fellow citizens who knew well who they were.

The second: you don’t usually measure the gravity of such atrocities in comparison with the number of population; you do not make a ponderate calculus. If one would do that the threshold of tolerance for such actions would be very low for the countries with big population. You count the facts itself, and if you do want to make a comparison you compare the analyzed society with another similar social environment. If you do that you will see that the situation from Transylvania, 1940-1944 (peace time, not an area of operations) stands out.

EDIT: maybe now you'll understand how gratuitous your attaks were.

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 08:19 pm
And I still have one big remaining question: why couldn't you, as the moderator you are, simply ask what was I trying to say if this was unclear, instead of attributing your thoughts and guesses to me, and saying that you dislike me as a person? By the way, I never used irony on you, as for the others they were perhaps mature enough (for not saying "men enough") to take it as irony of to "fight back". And if this is in your view a reason for making personal remarks, you should modify the forum rules in order to forbid irony.
If you'd be a fair, civil person you would apologize for that, but I don't have too much hope... However, this type of reactions to a difference of opinions does say something about one's character.

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 08:33 pm
As for interethnic realities, maybe we should start a thread with multicultural realities and positive experiences, or maybe those who will remain on the forum should do that. We had enough about crimes and it would be only fair to talk about the good things too.

The fact is that for almost every violent event happened in Transylvania during 1940-1944 or in Harghita-Covasna in 1990 there were Hungarians who risked and often lost their lives in defense of their neighbors or friends. I think their personal example and outstanding courage in front of the angry, manipulated lynching mobs surely stands out and are real assets for the humanity. We should not forget or neglect that, by focusing too much on the conflicts.

Posted by: Dénes June 20, 2005 08:48 pm
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 09:07 PM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 02:01 AM)
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 03:27 AM)
Do you also have some arguments for dismissing this book as a source? I would very much like to hear them, if they exist.

Even without getting into the details of this book (I don't have it handy anyway), it's enough to observe that it was published by Editura Politica (not even by Editura Militara - a much more appropriate publishing forum for such a work that pretends to be a history book), in 1985, at the height of Ceausescu's national-communist regime.


These are your only arguments?? I can’t believe my eyes. Seeing how vocal you were against this book I’ve expected to see entire list of reasons - or at least some credible ones - to be put forward. With what you have, you are wasting everybody’s time. I expected some arguments from within the book, dealing with the way the documentation was done and the sources were used, and you come with nothing.

I clearly stated that I don't have the book handy (I have better usage of my luggages' payload when I fly back than to carry the aforementioned book about "horthysts" and "fascists"). Explain it, please, how can I comment on the book's specific details if I don't have access to it? sad.gif

QUOTE
You tell us that you have red the book in 1985 and you use your recollections to make assertions about it. Let me ask you, how old were you in 1985 and which was your level of historical expertise back then?

I've read the book in the late 1980s, not necessarily right after it was published. That happened about 18-20 years ago.
To answer your question, back then I was in my '20s (like many current participants of this forum). I don't know how were (are) you in your '20s, but I can assure you that I was fully capable of understanding what has been written in the book and the political motives behind it being published.

QUOTE
PS: for those of you too young, or who left Romania for a long time, or who’ve never seen a totalitarian regime from inside, you should do some research about how the censorship worhed and how a book needed to look like to be given the green light for the print. This could give you some hints about how a book published in that period should be revised (this sounds for Victor too). And Denes, maybe you should do a little more documented research about the Romanian communism before uncritically accrediting clichés like “national-communist regime”. We could rather speak of national-communist rhetoric of the regime. For your info I was in Romania that time, quite able to realize what was going around (from my age point of view) and now the study of those realties is not far from my field of expertise.

FYI, I was unfortunate enough to fully experience first hand the "benefits" of Ceausescu's regime. You don't need to explain to me how those time were.
The adjective 'national-communist' is not a cliché, but a characteristic I personally experienced long enough, thus I don't need to "do a little more documented research".

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes June 20, 2005 09:03 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 20 2005, 11:13 AM)
Criticism is one thing, accusations of xenophobia and chauvinism are more serious and should not be used so easily IMO.

I agree.

Perhaps I overreacted a bit, moved by the deep disillusion of reading the said inflammatory posts, which collectively imply a pattern of barbarism to a whole people - despite the authors' later distancing from this obvious intent - instead of reading interesting details related to the military history of Rumania - the very goal of this forum.

There is a Canadian saying, pertinent to my above lines: if something moves like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it's a duck. I baptised the duck upsetting him/her in the process.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. We should split this thread and rename it: "the futile thread that solves nothing and leads nowhere."

Posted by: Dénes June 20, 2005 09:13 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Jun 20 2005, 08:18 PM)
I also think that we are all adults here and we can discuss based on facts, without insults. I quoted my sources on the Treznea story. When i researched it, i asked people from all sides, including the Hungarians.

Denes didn't quote any clear source for his version. The fact that he only relied on Hungarian sources proves his lack of objectivity. Instead of facts, he turned to insults. It seems that we're not all adults on this forum after all.

Thanks, Dragos03, for yet another personal insult. No problem.

Regarding the Treznea incident, I quoted the Hungarian version in order to also show the other side's take on the unfortunate events, as recorded soon after.
I did not (would not!) say that that's the only credible version, as I always try to include all involved parties' accounts of a certain event and find the version closest to the ultimate truth, no matter how "politically correct" it might be. Apparently, that's not your style of documentation. Again, no problem from my part. Carry on.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 09:22 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 20 2005, 08:48 PM)
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 09:07 PM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 19 2005, 02:01 AM)
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 19 2005, 03:27 AM)
Do you also have some arguments for dismissing this book as a source? I would very much like to hear them, if they exist.

Even without getting into the details of this book (I don't have it handy anyway), it's enough to observe that it was published by Editura Politica (not even by Editura Militara - a much more appropriate publishing forum for such a work that pretends to be a history book), in 1985, at the height of Ceausescu's national-communist regime.


These are your only arguments?? I can’t believe my eyes. Seeing how vocal you were against this book I’ve expected to see entire list of reasons - or at least some credible ones - to be put forward. With what you have, you are wasting everybody’s time. I expected some arguments from within the book, dealing with the way the documentation was done and the sources were used, and you come with nothing.

I clearly stated that I don't have the book handy (I have better usage of my luggages' payload when I fly back than to carry the aforementioned book about "horthysts" and "fascists"). Explain it, please, how can I comment on the book's specific details if I don't have access to it? sad.gif

QUOTE
You tell us that you have red the book in 1985 and you use your recollections to make assertions about it. Let me ask you, how old were you in 1985 and which was your level of historical expertise back then?

I've read the book in the late 1980s, not necessarily right after it was published. That happened about 18-20 years ago.
To answer your question, back then I was in my '20s (like many current participants of this forum). I don't know how were (are) you in your '20s, but I can assure you that I was fully capable of understanding what has been written in the book and the political motives behind it being published.

QUOTE
PS: for those of you too young, or who left Romania for a long time, or who’ve never seen a totalitarian regime from inside, you should do some research about how the censorship worhed and how a book needed to look like to be given the green light for the print. This could give you some hints about how a book published in that period should be revised (this sounds for Victor too). And Denes, maybe you should do a little more documented research about the Romanian communism before uncritically accrediting clichés like “national-communist regime”. We could rather speak of national-communist rhetoric of the regime. For your info I was in Romania that time, quite able to realize what was going around (from my age point of view) and now the study of those realties is not far from my field of expertise.

FYI, I was unfortunate enough to fully experience first hand the "benefits" of Ceausescu's regime. You don't need to explain to me how those time were.
The adjective 'national-communist' is not a cliché, but a characteristic I personally experienced long enough, thus I don't need to "do a little more documented research".

Gen. Dénes


This is never-never ending, but al least you are a person with whom I can discuss with arguments smile.gif .

I didn't questioned your capacity of social and political understanding (don't ask about how mine was in my early 20's, I had a long childhood smile.gif ) but your level of historical expertise, given your relatively young age the fact that this was a totalitarian regime. Also we know the intensity of the reaction this type of repressive system could generate from the part of the citizens against anything perceived as official propaganda. And we have both agreed that the book had a propagandistic message.

As for the regime itself, I made fine tuning of what you said. In my view it was a personal/family-type totalalitarian regime (some analysts called it of a "sultanistic" type) using national-communist-type rethorics; and there is a difference and maybe sometime we'll have the time to talk about it.

But the book validity as secondary source remains untouched until now. If the facts mentioned have been correctly documented, regardless the propaganda employed, then the book could be used to quote those facts...

Posted by: C-2 June 20, 2005 09:30 pm
That's it!
I had it!
I'm banning you all !

Posted by: C-2 June 20, 2005 09:36 pm
No ! second thought,the forum will be left without members..
I'm flying away.
http://www.imageshack.us
Photo: Ju 87 Stuka diving

Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 09:38 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jun 20 2005, 09:03 PM)

Perhaps I overreacted a bit, moved by the deep disillusion of reading the said inflammatory posts, which collectively imply a pattern of barbarism to a whole people - despite the authors' later distancing from this obvious intent



And here you are, stepping in Victor's footsteps. This is again disappointing for me. How was it so obvious, my original intent? Do you know me in person to make such personal allegations? What entitles you to think that in my first post I was myself the racist, chauvist and xenophobe and that I was a hypocrite posting the last one, about multiculturalism? Do you know what I do in my day to day life to say that?

The use of this thread could be summarized in a proposition: that in spite of all the horrors presented in my first post, the humanity never was never absent, all those years. So we can find it without forgetting or falsifying the past from the perspective of the present political correctness, as some would like to do. And I think this has both the power of a warning and of an example.
But when someone is prejudiced as you are, nothing can make him happy. With that I think I've said enough.

Posted by: Victor June 20, 2005 09:57 pm
QUOTE (Agarici)
1. As an answer to your first quotation, the difference is that I while I presented some facts you made a personal remark.


Please review what you posted on Jun 18 2005, 12:55 AM and the edited on Jun 18 2005, 01:06 AM. Those are personal remarks IMO.

QUOTE (Agarici)
2. For the second, I was reacting to another personal attack, that of Sid Guttrigge who said that I incite to ethnic hatred. I still expect his apologies for that. My reply was more substantive that the paragrapt you quoted and I told him that it is not normal to deny facts based on ignorance; if one does't know if a fact is real or not is normal to question that fact instead of denying it. And such a categorical attitude as Sid's was at that point seemed to me of the self-sufficient and patronizing type


First of all he didn't say that you incite to ethnic hatred, but if that someone makes statements regarding such crimes, without providing some evidence is inciting ethnic hatred. Then he asked you for sources. It didn't look like a personal attack to me and if it was one you had to report it to the admins. You used the personal attacks you so much resent and started patronizing (also something you said you resent). You are way too to sensitive and jumpy IMO and take things too personal for a virtual forum. I didn't need to quote your entire post. Just the last phrase, which I put in bold, was enough IMO. For your information, Sid does know more on Romania and this part of the world, than its place on the map and I think that would have been obvious from the posts he made in the military history part of the forum. But if you don't belive me, go on Feldgrau.net and do a search for the word Romania and see who and what posted in the threads were the word appears.

QUOTE (Agarici)
3. As for the last three of them, I think it is obvious regardless what you're trying to say: I mentioned some facts and I clarified what I was trying to say.


Actually I did deny the first fact you posted and even mentioned the source (the Baba Novac execution). You haven't challenged it yet. The rest of the facts you posted included only one episode with skinning, not enough IMO to prove that there was "culture" for such a thing.

QUOTE (Agarici)
You cannot and would not deny the facts, instead you reveal an entire web of innuendos from which I can understand only that it seems normal to you to develop personal hardfeelings to the members of the site and react on that basis, and that you resent me because I use irony. 


I see that you have an inclination to oversimplifying things and generalizations. Unlike you (or at least this is how it seems to me), I don't take discussions on these forums personal. My personal life is outside it and with the exception of Dragos, Dan Po and C-2, whom I know well I can't say that other of the members here are part of it at this moment. I don't hold grudges, but I think that I am entitled to have opinions about the people I meet in here, just like anyone else can have one about me. Those who know me well can judge me and only their opinion counts for me. I don't have anything to prove here.

Posted by: Victor June 20, 2005 10:06 pm
QUOTE (Agarici @ Jun 20 2005, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE (Denes)
Perhaps I overreacted a bit, moved by the deep disillusion of reading the said inflammatory posts, which collectively imply a pattern of barbarism to a whole people - despite the authors' later distancing from this obvious intent


And here you are, stepping in Victor's footsteps. This is again disappointing for me. How was it so obvious, my original intent?

sid guttridge initially wrote that:

QUOTE
However, while beating to death of downed airmen in the heat of the moment is commonly recorded crowd psychology, the skinning alive of someone is not. This is something that requires cold calculation and previous expertise, which implies a contemporary culture of such activities.


To which you replied:

QUOTE
Unfortunately such a culture existed and has prolonged its existence until recently.


Posted by: Agarici June 20, 2005 10:46 pm
I've already answered to each and every of your points, more than once for some of them. I won't do it again and again just because you don't want to understand. You should read what I wrote and maybe learn to admit when you are wrong or have made a mistake, or accept that some might simply not agree with you. It appears that you absolutely lack this ability, essential in my opinion for a moderator.

Also form now on you should refrain yourself from any comments or innuendos about my personal life. You are right, I am maybe less placid than other members and I will accept no bullshit from you. We all know about your faculty, dance classes and site you have to deal with... oh and you have a personal life too. I've noticed your quite vicious habit to imply that the persons who spend much time around here don't have one. You should be rather glad that they populate and animate your site and forum. But for me, I have a job and also some other projects apart from that, each requiring probably more focus than all you activities together do, when I have to work for them.

Posted by: Victor June 21, 2005 06:05 am
I don't insinuate, as it doesn't characterize me. I usually just speak my mind, without useless subtleties. For what it's worth I was just explaining to you why I have no heartfeelings against you as you claimed. But you can understand and interpret my words anyway you wish according to your prejudice against me (or anyone else that you feel that offended you). I can't speaking about others and their personal lives, because I don't know what they do most of the day, when they are not in here. I can only speak about myself. Having said that, the discussion is over from my side.

Posted by: dragos03 September 18, 2005 09:16 pm
A document made by the Romanian Ministry of Internal Affairs gives the following numbers of Romanian victims in Northern Transilvania, during 30 August 1940- 1 November 1941:
- 919 killed
- 1126 tortured
- 4126 beaten
- 15893 arrested
- 124 desecrations (of churches and graves)
- 525 houses destroyed

Posted by: dragos03 September 18, 2005 09:40 pm
An interesting case is that of the death of Romanian priest Aurel Munteanu, from the town of Huedin. On 10 September 1940 he was tortured and beaten for four hours in the middle of the town, until he was killed, by 21 Hungarian citizens. They scalped his head and his beard and they killed him by sticking a pole in his mouth until it penetrated his head. They also killed another Romanian who tried to help the priest (Nicula Gheorghe).

What is interesting about this case is the sentence of the Royal Hungarian Court in Cluj, in the murderers' trial in 1941. 13 men were accused, of those only 7 were found guilty for "beatings leading to death". They were sentenced 2-3 months of jail.

A quote from the sentence (that was published as a brochure in 1941 in Cluj) details the excuses found by the court for the low punishment: "they were never punished before, they were in an emotional state that explains their sorrow and strong emotions that could easily lead to excesses from those happy about the liberation and driven by high patriotic feelings."

So, the court considered that the brutal torture and murder of a priest was a simple "excess" from people with "high patriotic feelings".

The court also found the motive of this horrific crime: "the mobile of their act was that feeling common to all humans, that is normal for all the true members of a proud nation". No comment.


Posted by: dragos September 19, 2005 06:47 am
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 19 2005, 12:16 AM)
A document made by the Romanian Ministry of Internal Affairs gives the following numbers of Romanian victims in Northern Transilvania, during 30 August 1940- 1 November 1941:
- 919 killed
- 1126 tortured
- 4126 beaten
- 15893 arrested
- 124 desecrations (of churches and graves)
- 525 houses destroyed


The study is published in detail on the page of the Legionary Movement:

http://www.miscarea.com/transilvania7.htm



Posted by: Dénes September 20, 2005 04:26 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 19 2005, 03:16 AM)
A document made by the Romanian Ministry of Internal Affairs gives the following numbers of Romanian victims in Northern Transilvania, during 30 August 1940- 1 November 1941

Dragos03, what's exactly your point in listing all these statistics and individual cases?

Based on this thread's title, one could also list similar statistics on Rumanian attrocities against ethnic Hungarians in Southern Transylvania (1940-1944) and Northern Transylvania (after Sept. 1945). But what would be achieved?
Nothing constructive, IMO.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. What's the published source you took the info from (unless you found the documents in the archives)? Isn't it, by any chance, the infamous 'Teroarea Horthysta...' book?

Posted by: dragos03 September 20, 2005 05:12 pm
The point was that maybe somebody has other figures, to compare.

And yes, it is from the "Teroarea...". BTW, that book is not so innacurate as you seem to consider it. I didn't bother to read it all, i only read the parts about certain crimes (the ones i knew the truth about, from eye-witnesses, like the Aurel Munteanu "excess" or the Treznea and Ip massacres).

The murder of Aurel Munteanu is accurately described, without any distortion. The accounts of the massacres at Treznea and Ip contain exagerations and some facts are altered (like blaming the Hungarian regular troops for the Treznea massacre). But most of the basic facts in the accounts are real.

So, i believe most of the facts in the book are real, although some false data was added. That's why i posted the numbers, i am curious if they are real or not. Is there any other statistic to compare it with this one?

Posted by: Agarici September 20, 2005 11:15 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 20 2005, 04:26 PM)
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 19 2005, 03:16 AM)
A document made by the Romanian Ministry of Internal Affairs gives the following numbers of Romanian victims in Northern Transilvania, during 30 August 1940- 1 November 1941

Dragos03, what's exactly your point in listing all these statistics and individual cases?

Based on this thread's title, one could also list similar statistics on Rumanian attrocities against ethnic Hungarians in Southern Transylvania (1940-1944) and Northern Transylvania (after Sept. 1945). But what would be achieved?
Nothing constructive, IMO.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. What's the published source you took the info from (unless you found the documents in the archives)? Isn't it, by any chance, the infamous 'Teroarea Horthysta...' book?


Again "infamous"? If I remember well you have said that before, without being at all able to sustain in any credible way the fact that, apart from the easy recognoscible (and though easy to eliminate) propaganda messages, the book is not a reliable secondary source. Have the archive documents it quotes become less credible because the authors subscribed to the official party line and propaganda…? I have refrained myself to post anything new in this topic in order not to inflate the spirits, although I run into some new data about September 1940, North-Western Transylvania; recently we marked 65 years from those ill fated events. But now that you brought it forward…

As for the first part of your post, I have no information about any atrocity committed in Southern Transylvania, apart from the harassing and economical boycott (or even stealing or robbery) to which some Hungarian ethnics was subjected by the “legionari”, or by the (indeed infamous) “politie legionara”, especially after November 1940 and during the legionar rebellion. Also from what I know, these cases were rather isolated and they seldom included violence, so I would not call them atrocities. I think there’s practically impossible to compare these abuses with the crimes and barbaric acts that happened in the Hungarian occupied zone of Transylvania. Unfortunately after September 1944 it seems that there were several abuses and crimes comitted against the Hungarian ethnics from Transylvania by Romanian extremist groups; also unfortunately these were fuelled by a feeling of revenge generated by numerous report and press account about what happened in North-Western Transylvania during the Hungarian occupation. But we should also note two more things: first, from what I know, those crimes were not backed by or covered for the Romanian state, as it happened in 1940-1944 with the Hungarian state; and I think this is an essential difference. And the second is that the acts of violence that occurred in Transylvania after 1944 were not at all as unilateral as you imply. Take for example what happened in Cluj, 1945, when the Romanian students initiated, in the center of the town, a peaceful manifestation, celebrating the administrative reunification of North-Western Transylvania with Romania; a counter-manifestation was organized by a group of the new Communist Party activists of Hungarian ethnicity. They were against “the sons of the rotten Romanian bourgeoisie, espousing their decaying nationalism”, so they sprayed them with rocks and empty bottles and then stormed them armed with knives and bats. Many students were savagely beaten; they took refuge in their dorm (caminul “Avram Iancu”) and baricadated there. The Hungarian activists assaulted the dorm and, not being able to break in, tried to put it on fire; the students were saved form being burned alive by a Soviet patrol - the soldiers fired a few shots in the air and the aggressors abandoned the “siege” and ran away. So I think you should also take these kind of events into account when talking about Romanian abuses after 1944. Actually the Romanian administration was oficially reinstalled only in 1945 and was pretty frail during the first years after the war, the only “stable” force in the area being the Red army. And as a very strange occurrence, the new ruling party leaders, at least in Transylvania, were in majority Hungarian ethnics.

About “Aurel Munteanu” case, I agree with you, it has been already presented in this topic.

PS: and for the sources, some of my university professors witnessed those events...

Posted by: Agarici September 21, 2005 02:10 am
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 20 2005, 05:12 PM)
The point was that maybe somebody has other figures, to compare.

And yes, it is from the "Teroarea...". BTW, that book is not so innacurate as you seem to consider it. I didn't bother to read it all, i only read the parts about certain crimes (the ones i knew the truth about, from eye-witnesses, like the Aurel Munteanu "excess" or the Treznea and Ip massacres).

The murder of Aurel Munteanu is accurately described, without any distortion. The accounts of the massacres at Treznea and Ip contain exagerations and some facts are altered (like blaming the Hungarian regular troops for the Treznea massacre). But most of the basic facts in the accounts are real.

So, i believe most of the facts in the book are real, although some false data was added. That's why i posted the numbers, i am curious if they are real or not. Is there any other statistic to compare it with this one?


Dragos, about “Teroarea horthysto-fascista…”, I don’t think that the authors added new facts. They (Ardeleanu and Musat) were professional historians, tough close to the party line. In my opinion, their big mistake was to go along with the socialist/communist vision about history, as a science/discipline serving a political (higher) purpose instead of having as only objective to establish the facts. They discredited themselves by doing that; so given that their interpretation of the events is not to be taken into consideration, in my opinion. But the book is dealing mainly with facts and the analysis/ interpretation part is limited to the introduction and to a few paragraphs in each chapter. There is another flaw of the book which should be underlined here: the title sounds strange (propaganda), and I think it wasn’t a good thing to focus only on the atrocities and to extract them from the general explanatory context of the period in which they took place; however, I think this was highly unusual. In the spirit of Denes’ attitude towards the book, I admit that it could have a manipulatory effect on people completely ignorant of the historical context of those years, which is not the case with most members of this forum. I would like to have a better book about those events, balanced and written with maximal objectivity. Since we don’t, we have to discriminately use what we have, and I think/hope we can deal in a mature way with that. We should also very seriously point out that the authors did not use any offensive or derogatory content towards the Hungarians or their political leaders (not from the present nor from the past); if they had, it would have been a shame to even mention that book, regardless its documentaristic quality. Unfortunately, this thing happen quite often the in the case of Hungarian nationalist propaganda. There was a book presented by Dragos (the moderator), somewhere on the forum, wrote by a Hungarian "historian" - a sort of compendium of Romanian history, full of invectives; still the book was used as a source by some fellow forum members. As for the facts presented in “Teroarea horthysto-fascista”, probably some of them are less or incorrectly documented (Dragos mentioned the Traznea episode), but this kind of shortcomings can quite simply be overcame by using a critical manner of reading: we should check the references for each case in part. If an episode is properly documented than everything is OK, if there are no sources we shouldn’t even mention it, and if the references are incomplete we should proceed with maximum caution and search for complementary/alternative sources.

Denes, I agree that the historian's role is not to count the crimes of the past… but neither to hide them. I think the historian's mission (even of an amateur, “after work hours” historian as some of us pretend to be) is to establish the facts and to analyze them. To hide the realities of the past behind considerations linked with the comfort of the present might be as counterproductive as the counting of the crimes. As for maintaining/improving a good “climate” in the present, I suggested a topic in the General section, with each one’s relevant intercultural experiences (because I’m convinced they exist)… but apparently nobody seemed to be interested. I think this kind of communication is more efficient in fighting any possible prejudices than hiding those events from the past which are not convenient for us… In my humble opinion, if we want to live in harmony we should be working for that in the present (and with the present), and not "re-inventing" the past.

Posted by: Samus September 21, 2005 09:54 am
QUOTE (Agarici @ Sep 20 2005, 11:15 PM)
<<Many students were savagely beaten; they took refuge in their dorm (caminul “Avram Iancu”) and baricadated there. >>


When I was student I lived in "Avram Iancu" hostel. I heard this story from older students. They were baricadeted at the last floor (3th floor) with beds and other pieces of furniture and used boiled water against agresors.

And again about romainian "atrocities": My grand father started the military service after the war, in 1945 in Cluj. After instruction period, his mision was mainlly to accompany the war invalids (blinds) to the medical visit. He told me that for a romanian soldier it was very risky to walk alone in the suburbs of the town or in town in the night because of the hungarian ethnic population's agressivity. From the begining they were stongly adviced to walk allways in groups.

Posted by: New Connaught Ranger January 26, 2006 12:56 pm

With regard war crimes, Romanian and Hungarian WW2, while at my brother in laws house I found a book called "TEROAREA HORTHYSTO-FASCISTA IN NORD VESTUL ROMANIEI Septembrie 1940 - Octombrie 1944,"

Published in Bucharet in 1985 Inside page says: Authors ION ARDELEANU, GHEORGHE BODEA, MIHAI FATU, OLIVER LUSTIG, MIRCEA MUSAT, LUDOVIC VAJDA,

Contains lots of information and pictures, possibly a copy can be obtained at a local bookseeler or your public library.

I hope its some help, Kevin.

Posted by: Dénes January 26, 2006 04:17 pm
That controversial book has been discussed at lengths before. Check previous posts.

Basically, the book was published by Editura Politica (Political Publishing House) during the last period of the Communist regime, presumably to political order, to fit the nationalist agenda of those times. Therefore it's unreliable and cannot be regarded as a scholarly source.
I believe it has been published in English as well.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos03 January 26, 2006 04:28 pm
Have you read this book Denes?

It is not unreliable, just biased. The book is based on extensive sources and almost all of the facts in it are real. Only some details can be questioned, the basic facts are accurate.

Posted by: Dénes January 26, 2006 04:41 pm
I did read parts of the book, not all, many years ago, so I know what I am talking about. Just look at the title, for example...

I am really surprised that there are historically minded people who still look at this controversial book as a reliable source. That speaks volumes of their mindset.

We've discussed this before, and I don't wish to engage into further polemics on this topic.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos03 January 26, 2006 04:58 pm
Maybe you should read the book again, the full book. And after that, maybe you could tell us why this book is innacurate and which facts are not true.

I only bought this book some months ago. Before that, i also thought it is an unreliable book. But, after reading it and checking some of the facts, i changed my opinion.

It is ridiculous to contest a book without presenting any facts and without reading it fully, just because it was published by the communists. I can send you a copy of it if you want. After you read it, we can continue the discussion about it, based on facts.

Posted by: sid guttridge January 26, 2006 06:39 pm
Hi Guys,

I think there are two issues here. One is propaganda intent and the other is historical accuracy.

There is no reasonable doubt that the book had nationalist propaganda intent for the Ceausescu regime when first published, some of it probably inherited from wartime propaganda, judging by the photos. However, this does not necessarily mean that it is wildly inaccurate. Truth makes the best propaganda.

Several things did strike me. Firstly, the scale of alleged deaths is not massive by WWII standards. If the numbers are exaggerated they are not exaggerated to implausible heights.

The second thing is that the book is heavily annotated, which means that an attentive researcher can if necessary follow up all the sources if he so wishes. So the authors have left numerous hostages to fortune.

The greatest weakness is that there is no academic detachment. The book is entirely from the Romanian perspective and lacks any Hungarian counterpoint whatsoever.

Despite its limitations, it is a useful book to have because there is nothing much else on the subject. However, I would very much like to see a more truly academically detached study that uses Hungarian sources as well.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Dénes January 26, 2006 09:00 pm
Sid, I have not asserted that the book is baseless. Obviously, there were atrocities committed during those years - by both sides.

What I've asserted is that since it was written under obvious political guidance in a totalitarian regime, one cannot know where historical accuracy stops and fabrications start. That's why, in my view, the book is unreliable and therefore useless for serious historical studies.

QUOTE
it is a useful book to have because there is nothing much else on the subject.


I disagree here. The book's singular status - which I doubt, BTW - does not make it more trustworthy by a single iota. A unique rubbish is still a rubbish - except for artworks, perhaps.

QUOTE
However, I would very much like to see a more truly academically detached study that uses Hungarian sources as well.


I agree here. I would also like to see a scholarly comprehensive study on this touchy subject. However, I am afraid we have to wait way too long until such a book would be published. Perhaps I am wrong, though. Time will tell.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos January 26, 2006 10:22 pm
Since the book in discussion offers plenty of photographic material, which can hardly be dismissed, I'm still waiting to see photographs showing Romanian atrocities in Transylvania. Since supposedly there was an equivalence of atorcities between the two sides, there should be the same balance in photographic evidence.

Posted by: Imperialist January 26, 2006 10:27 pm
I know this might seem a little off-topic here, but it actually puts things into perspective:

QUOTE

a. On or about 15 January 1999, in the early morning hours, the village of Racak (Stimlje/Shtime municipality) was attacked by forces of the FRY and Serbia. After shelling, the forces of the FRY and Serbia entered the village later in the morning and began conducting house-to-house searches. Villagers, who attempted to flee from the forces of the FRY and Serbia, were shot throughout the village. A group of approximately 25 men attempted to hide in a building, but were discovered by the forces of the FRY and Serbia. They were beaten and then were removed to a nearby hill, where they were shot and killed. Altogether, the forces of the FRY and Serbia killed approximately 45 Kosovo Albanians in and around Racak. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule A, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

b. On or about 25 March 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded and attacked the village of Bela Crkva/Bellacërkë (Orahovac/Rahovec municipality). Many of the residents of Bela Crkva/Bellacërkë fled along the Belaja River outside the village and were forced to seek shelter near a railroad bridge. As the forces of the FRY and Serbia approached the bridge, they opened fire on a number of villagers, killing 12 persons including 10 women and children. A two-year old child survived this incident. The forces of the FRY and Serbia then ordered the remaining villagers out of the streambed, at which time the men and older boys were separated from the elderly men, women and small children. The forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered the men and older boys to strip and then systematically robbed them of all valuables. The women and children were then ordered to leave towards an adjacent village called Zrze/Xërxë. A doctor from Bela Crkva/Bellacërkë attempted to speak with a commander of the attacking forces, but he was shot and killed, as was his nephew. The remaining men and older boys were then ordered back into the streambed. After they complied, the forces of the FRY and Serbia opened fire on these men and older boys, killing approximately 65 Kosovo Albanians. A number of men and older boys survived this incident and other persons hiding in the vicinity also witnessed this incident. In addition, forces of the FRY and Serbia also killed six men found hiding in an irrigation ditch in the vicinity. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule B, which is attached as an appendix to the indictment.)

c. On or about 25 March 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia attacked the villages of Mala Krusa/Krusë e Vogël and Velika Krusa/Krushë e Mahde (Orahovac/Rahovec municipality). The villagers of Mala Krusa/Krusë e Vogel took refuge in a forested area outside Mala Krusa/Krusë e Vogel, where they were able to observe the forces of the FRY and Serbia systematically looting and burning their houses. The villagers subsequently took refuge in the house of Sedje Batusha, which is located on the outskirts of Mala Krusa/Krusë e Vogel. During the morning of 26 March 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia located the villagers. The forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered the women and small children to leave the area and go to Albania. The forces of the FRY and Serbia detained and searched the men and boys and confiscated their identity documents and valuables. Subsequently, the forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered the men and boys, under threat of death, to walk to an unoccupied house in Mala Krusa/Krusë e Vogel. The forces of the FRY and Serbia forced the men and boys to enter the house. When the men and boys were assembled inside, the forces of the FRY and Serbia opened fire with machine guns on the group. After several minutes of gunfire, the forces of the FRY and Serbia set fire to the house in order to burn the bodies. As a result of the shooting and fire, approximately 105 Kosovo Albanian men and boys died. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule C, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

d. On or about 26 March 1999, in the morning hours, forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the vicinity of the BERISHA family compound in the town of Suva Reka/Suharekë (Suva Reka/ Suharekë municipality). Tanks were positioned close to, and pointing in the direction of, the houses. The forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered the occupants out of one of the houses. Men were separated from women and children and six members of the family were killed. The remaining family members were herded towards a coffee shop by forces of the FRY and Serbia. Those family members were herded, along with three extended BERISHA family groups, into the coffee shop. Forces of the FRY and Serbia then walked into the coffee shop and opened fire on the persons inside. Explosives were also thrown into the shop. At least 44 civilians were killed and others seriously wounded during this action. The bodies of the victims were dragged out of the shop and placed in the rear of a truck, which was then driven in the direction of Prizren. Three injured persons, thrown in among the other bodies, jumped out of the truck en route to Prizren. Property pertaining to at least six of the persons killed in the coffee shop was found in a clandestine mass gravesite at a VJ firing range near Korusa/Korisha. In addition, identification documents pertaining to at least five of the persons killed in the coffee shop were found on bodies exhumed from a clandestine mass grave located in Batajnica, near Belgrade, Serbia. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule K, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

e. On or about the evening of 26 March 1999, in the town of Dakovica/Gjakovë , forces of the FRY and Serbia came to a house at 134a Ymer Grezda Street. The women and children inside the house were separated from the men, and were ordered to go upstairs. The forces of the FRY and Serbia then shot and killed the 6 Kosovo Albanian men who were in the house. (The names of those killed are set forth in Schedule D, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

f. On or about 26 March 1999, in the morning hours, forces of the FRY and Serbia attacked the village of Padaliste/Padalishte (Istok/Istog municipality). As the forces of the FRY and Serbia entered the village, they fired on houses and on villagers who attempted to flee. Eight members of the Beke IMERAJ family were forced from their home and were killed in front of their house. Other residents of Padaliste/Padalishte were killed at their homes and in a streambed near the village. Altogether, forces of the FRY and Serbia killed approximately 20 Kosovo Albanians from Padaliste/Padalishte. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule E, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

g. On or about 27 March 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia shelled the village of Izbica/Izbicë (Srbica/Skenderaj municipality) with heavy weapons systems. At least 4,500 villagers from Izbica/Izbicë and surrounding villages took refuge in a meadow in Izbica/Izbicë. On 28 March 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the villagers and approached them, demanding money. After the forces of the FRY and Serbia stole the villagers' valuables, the men were separated from the women and small children. The men were then further divided into two groups, one of which was sent to a nearby hill, and the other was sent to a nearby streambed. The forces of the FRY and Serbia then fired upon both groups of men and at least 116 Kosovo Albanian men were killed. Also on 28 March 1999, the women and children gathered at Izbica/Izbicë were forced to leave the area and walk towards Albania. Two elderly disabled women were sitting on a tractor-trailer unable to walk. Forces of the FRY and Serbia set the tractor-trailer on fire and the two women were burned to death. (Those persons killed at Izbica/Izbicë who are known by name are set forth in Schedule F, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

h. On or about the late evening of 1 April 1999 and continuing through the early morning hours of 2 April 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia launched an operation against the Qerim district of Dakovica/Gjakovë . Over a period of several hours, forces of the FRY and Serbia forcibly entered houses of Kosovo Albanians in the Qerim district, killed the occupants, and then set fire to the buildings. Dozens of homes were destroyed and over 50 persons were killed. For example, in a house located at 157 Milos Gilic/Milosh Gilic Street, forces of the FRY and Serbia shot the occupants and then set the house on fire. As a result of the shootings and the fires set by the forces of the FRY and Serbia at this single location, 20 Kosovo Albanians were killed, of whom 19 were women and children. (The names of those killed at this location are set forth in Schedule G, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

i. On or about the early morning hours of 27 April 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia launched a massive attack against the Kosovo Albanian population of the Carragojs, Erenik and Trava Valleys (Dakovica/Gjakovë municipality) in order to drive the population out of the area. A large number of forces of the FRY and Serbia were deployed, and several checkpoints were established. Throughout the entire day, villagers under direct threat from the forces of the FRY and Serbia left their homes and joined several convoys of refugees using tractors, horse carts and cars. In Meja/Mejë, Korenica/Korenicë and Meja Orize/Orize, a large, and as yet undetermined, number of Kosovo Albanian civilian males were separated from the mass of fleeing villagers and abducted. Many of these men were summarily executed, and approximately 300 persons are still missing. Identity documents pertaining to at least seven persons who were last seen at Meja/Mejë on 27 April 1999 were found on bodies exhumed from a clandestine mass grave located in Batajnica, near Belgrade, Serbia. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule I, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment).

j. On or about 2 May 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia attacked several villages north-east of the town of Vucitrn/Vushtrri including Skrovna/Skromë, Slakovce/Sllakofc, Ceceli/Cecelija and Gornja Sudimlja/Studime e Epërme. The villagers were forced out of their homes, and many of their houses, shops and religious sites were completely burnt. They were subsequently forced into a convoy of approximately 20,000 people travelling on the "Studime Gorge" road, in the direction of the town of Vucitrn/Vushtrri. In the course of these actions, forces of the FRY and Serbia harassed, beat and robbed Kosovo Albanians travelling in the convoy and killed approximately 104 Kosovo Albanians. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule H, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

k. On or about 22 May 1999, in the early morning hours, a uniformed person in the Dubrava/Dubravë Prison complex (Istok/Istog municipality) announced from a watchtower that all prisoners were to gather their personal belongings and line up on the sports field at the prison complex for transfer to the prison in Nis, Serbia. Within a very short time, hundreds of prisoners had gathered at the sports field with bags of personal belongings and lined up in rows to await transport. Without warning, uniformed persons opened fire on the prisoners from the watchtower, from holes in the perimeter wall and from gun emplacements beyond the wall. Many prisoners were killed outright and others wounded.

(i) On or about 23 May 1999, in the afternoon, forces of the FRY and Serbia threw grenades and shot into the drains, sewers, buildings and basements, killing and wounding many additional prisoners who had sought refuge in those locations after the events of the previous day. Altogether, approximately 50 prisoners were killed. (Many of the murdered prisoners remain unidentified, however, the names of those persons who are known to have been killed are set forth in Schedule J, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

l. During the period between March 1999 and May 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia launched a series of massive offensives against several villages in the municipality of Kacanik/Kacanik, which resulted in the deaths of more than one hundred civilians.

(i) On or about 24 March 1999, the village of Kotlina/Kotlinë was attacked by forces of the FRY and Serbia. In the course of the attack, most of the houses were burnt down and at least 17 persons were killed. Some of those killed were captured in the woods, executed and then thrown into wells. Explosives were thrown on top of the wells.

(ii) On or about 13 April 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the village of Slatina/Sllatinë and the hamlet of Vata/Vata. After shelling the village, infantry troops and police entered the village and looted and burnt the houses. During this action, 13 civilians were shot and killed.

(iii) On or about 21 May 1999, the village of Stagovo/Stagovë was surrounded by forces of the FRY and Serbia. The population tried to escape toward the mountains east of the village. During this action, at least 12 persons were killed. Most of the village was looted and burnt down.

(iv) On or about 25 May 1999, forces of FRY and Serbia surrounded the village of Dubrava/Lisnaje. As the forces entered the village, the population was ordered to gather at the school and leave the village on tractors. Men were then separated from women and children. During this action 4 men were killed. In addition, 4 members of the Qorri family were killed while trying to escape toward the woods. (Those persons killed in the municipality of Kacanik who are known by name are set forth in Schedule L, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)


http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-2ai011029e.htm

Reading "Teroarea Horthysto-Fascista..." one sees an almost identical type of crimes and atrocities.
But I am sure that some Serbs argue that the ICT data is biased and politicised, mere rubbish.

Posted by: Dénes January 27, 2006 12:49 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Jan 27 2006, 04:22 AM)
Since supposedly there was an equivalence of atorcities between the two sides, there should be the same balance in photographic evidence.

Since the atrocities you're referring to were committed by Rumanian troops/gunmen, on territory that remained all along under Rumanian control, I believe the photos you're looking for can be found in the Rumanian archives.

All I've seen so far are photos of Hungarian ethnics expulsed by Rumanian authorities from Southern Transylvania into the Hungarian controlled territory.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes January 27, 2006 12:53 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Jan 27 2006, 04:27 AM)
I know this might seem a little off-topic here, but it actually puts things into perspective:

QUOTE

a. On or about 15 January 1999, in the early morning hours, the village of Racak (Stimlje/Shtime municipality) was attacked by forces of the FRY and Serbia. (...)


Mr. Imperialist, having in mind that the Serbs were mostly allies of the Rumanians, and the Hungarians were mostly at war with them (e.g., in the dying days of the 2nd World War and the immediately post-war time period an estimated 40.000 Hungarian ethnics from Vojvodina were massacred by Serbian Communists under Tito's command), I am confused: which side are you trying to compare the Serbs' action in Kosovo to? sad.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist January 27, 2006 07:22 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Jan 27 2006, 12:53 AM)
Mr. Imperialist, having in mind that the Serbs were mostly allies of the Rumanians, and the Hungarians were mostly at war with them (e.g., in the dying days of the 2nd World War and the immediately post-war time period an estimated 40.000 Hungarian ethnics from Vojvodina were massacred by Serbian Communists under Tito's command), I am confused: which side are you trying to compare the Serbs' action in Kosovo to? sad.gif

Gen. Dénes

I am showing that the atrocities presented in the book "Teroarea" are common to ethnic cleansing actions whatever the time, place or party. And therefore, it is hard to consider them mere politically ordered fabrications.

Posted by: sid guttridge January 27, 2006 10:14 am
Hi Denes,

I agree with much of your reply, so I will just address the parts I disagree with.

I do not agree that the book is entirely useless for historical studies. Firstly, once one is aware of its limitations these can be factored into one's analysis.

Secondly it gives sources to follow up.

Thirdly, it is not the last word on the subject. Quite the reverse. It is only the first word on the subject. As such, it is merely the foundation upon which better informed studies can build. However, until they are available it is all the general public has, so we have to make the best of it.

However, anyone who believes this book is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is on shaky ground. It would be like accepting the validity of a trial in which only the witnesses for the prosecution were available.

My recommendation is that the book is worth reading, because it deals with a real issue, but with a great deal of sceptical reservation because it contains only one side's perspective.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Dénes September 27, 2007 06:59 pm
This evening, while driving home, I heard on the radio, in the 'Without borders' program, a detailed report on the commemoration of the massacre of Hungarian civilians in the village of Ginta (in Hungarian Gyanta), in Bihor/Bihar county, by Rumanian troops, committed this very day 63 years ago, in 1944.

The report stated that 41 Hungarian civilians - from 11 to 60, men, women, and children - were killed by Rumanian troops entering the village in pursuit of Hungarian troops. Further six villagers were shot in the nearby Hălmăgel (Kishalmágy).

A small monument was recently raised in the memory of the victims, erected in the local protestant church's yard.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. I did not want to open a separate thread for this topic. This thread should suffice for all similar incidents happened in this area.

Posted by: 21 inf September 27, 2007 08:31 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ September 27, 2007 06:59 pm)
This evening, while driving home, I heard on the radio, in the 'Without borders' program, a detailed report on the commemoration of the massacre of Hungarian civilians in the village of Ginta (in Hungarian Gyanta), in Bihor/Bihar county, by Rumanian troops, committed this very day 63 years ago, in 1944.

The report stated that 41 Hungarian civilians - from 11 to 60, men, women, and children - were killed by Rumanian troops entering the village in pursuit of Hungarian troops. Further six villagers were shot in the nearby Hălmăgel (Kishalmágy).

...

Gen. Dénes

...

In October 07, 2004 mr. Takacs Peter, a Hungarian member of this forum, informed us at http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=274&st=0 that “1944.September 24.:Gyanta,48 dead innocent Hungarians” by Romanian troops.

It were 48 or 41?
It was on 24 september 1944 or it was on 27 september 1944?

Posted by: Dénes September 27, 2007 08:57 pm
Both Mr. Takacs and I give the date as 24 Sept., not 27.

As for the victims, I mentioned that according to the radio programme and the sources I consulted later at home, there were 41 victims shot in the village, plus six more in a neighbouring village. That's a total of 47. One more could have died of his wounds.
By the way, if anyone wants to know the exact number of the victims and their names, he/she should visit the mentioned memorial erected in the village.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf September 27, 2007 09:45 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ September 27, 2007 06:59 pm)
This evening, while driving home, I heard on the radio, in the 'Without borders' program, a detailed report on the commemoration of the massacre of Hungarian civilians in the village of Ginta (in Hungarian Gyanta), in Bihor/Bihar county, by Rumanian troops, committed this very day 63 years ago, in 1944.
....

Gen. Dénes

...

You said that the massacre and the comemoration was in the very date that you posted the message.
The date when you posted is 27 september 2007.

It was on 24 (mr Takacs's date) or in 27 september (radio's date)?

Or maybe the sources used by the radio program were not reliable?

Mr Takacs is mentioning 48 in Ginta alone, not mentioning the other village.
1 is still missing on the number to be 48, even if one count the both villages together.
The presumption that that one died of wounds is only a hypotesis if not proved.

In Oarba de Mures a number of romanian peasants (childrens and adults) were victims of fight for the area between axis and romanian forces, as they didnt evacuated the war zone.

If the radio post is not from Europe (and even if it is) it is amazing how interested was this radio to mention such an local event.
I'm sure they sent on the air also news and a detailed report about the comemorations from 9th september from Traznea, Salaj county and from 14th september from Ip, Salaj county.

Posted by: mihnea September 28, 2007 08:14 am
This is very interesting, I'm interested in more details (I don't care if they were 41 or 47 or 48 or if it took place on 24 or 27 September) I want to know how were the civilians killed? Executed or were hit by artillery or they were covering in a church and were killed all at the same time. Also the circumstances regarding this incident (unfortunately I’m 100% sure it wasn’t a lonely event).

@ 21 inf : I don't see the connection between Gyanta and Traznea/Ip , these war crimes were done by different armies.

Posted by: 21 inf September 28, 2007 02:53 pm
QUOTE (mihnea @ September 28, 2007 08:14 am)
@ 21 inf : I don't see the connection between Gyanta and Traznea/Ip , these war crimes were done by different armies.

For some it seems too soft the sugestion... biggrin.gif

Mihnea, isnt it very strange that a radio post, excepting probably a hungarian or romanian one, to be interested in such detailed way by a such small event as a local comemoration? And it is even much odd if this radio is not from Europe or it is outside Hungary or Romania. And I bet that the radio wasnt from Romania. In this circumstances, what is the purpose of this kind of very detailed report about a very local event? As far as I know, this kind of detailed investigations require a sum of money. Who is intested to spent money on this kind of local events? And in what purpose, like I said above?

You said that at Ginta and Ip/Traznea were war crimes.
Please define war crimes. Please define it because you said very true thing: it is not the same if civilians are killed in a war zone due to combat or they are killed in an organised way by their own village neighbors. In the case of Ip/Traznea it was an organised crime.
Will one consider a war crime if the civilians from Ginta died because an artillery shell felt on their shelter?

The numbers are important, even if not relevant. 1 more or less victim does not change the tragedy of loosing human lifes and it also does not matter if it was on 24 or 27 september. Try to review the posts of romanian members about linked articles when the autors of the posts were asked in a very demanding way to give numbers and 100% certain facts to be believed.
Some members around here contested the book "Teroarea hortysto-fascista..." because the facts are not true. My own grandfather, a survivor of Ip massacre, was interviewed by the authors of that book, he donated his ww2 era photos, and he was also put on the book with his photo, in his own garden were the killing took place. So, again, can one say that the book is not well written, and with what arguments? That the book was written under comunist rule and published at Editura Politica? cool.gif

To be clear for some people who will disagree me after what I said above: to loose a single human life, is a very big tragedy and i dont like things like this.

21 inf dixit.

Posted by: Dénes September 28, 2007 06:16 pm
QUOTE (mihnea @ September 28, 2007 02:14 pm)
This is very interesting, I'm interested in more details (I don't care if they were 41 or 47 or 48 or if it took place on 24 or 27 September) I want to know how were the civilians killed? Executed or were hit by artillery or they were covering in a church and were killed all at the same time. Also the circumstances regarding this incident (unfortunately I’m 100% sure it wasn’t a lonely event).

Mihnea, I didn't post deliberately any details on this regrettable incident as not to further exacerbate the already tensioned spirits of this highly sensitive topic on war crimes.
Suffice to say that the killings at Ginta/Gyanta were carried out execution style, with the villagers - ranging from 2 to 80, men, women, children - lined up then shot. They were victims of no shelling, no accidental fire, etc.

If you wish to learn more, I suggest you to find a good Hungarian-English on-line translator programme, so I can point you to a few links, that discuss the event. Then you can decide for yourself how accurate and how truthful the described killing were (and you're correct, these were not the only such mass killings in the area). Here is one such link:
http://www.emi.erdely.ma/?id=125
This particular site mentions that the Rumanian army unit that entered Ginta that very day was the 3rd Mountain Division. This info can be checked.

To Bogdan. Apparently, I wasn't clear enough in my earlier posting talking of the radio programme 'Without Borders'. It aired a report made on site, on 24 Sept., including testimonies of survivors and eyewitnesses. They were all talking of the same date, the 24th. It was only the programme that was aired on the 27th, which I've heard in my car.

As you can see from my above post, the killings were done deliberately, and not some sort of 'collateral damage' as you try to imply. You should come to terms of the fact that such war crimes committed by Rumanian troops did occur in the Autumn of 1944 - even if these regrettable events are not mentioned in the Rumanian literature. And yes, Hungarian troops did also commit war crimes.

As for the exact number of victims, I just found on the nets (thanks to Google) a short video clip posted on YouTube with the mentioned memorial erected in the village's protestant church's yard. There you can see the names of the identified victims, including their ages, thus you can count them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94P_T3R5LZw

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf September 28, 2007 06:26 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ September 28, 2007 06:16 pm)

You should come to terms of the fact that such war crimes did occur in the Autumn of 1944 - even if these regrettable events were not mentioned in Rumanian literature.

Just as academic interes, because one cant find reports on romanian literature about the events as above done by romanians, are there any mention in hungarian literature about such events like the much mentioned Ip/Traznea, or Marca, Cerisa and so on?

Cos looks like some alcoholic treatment this disease. Before start the treatment, it is important to recognise...

In romanian literature there are not such event mentioned, so we need more time.
What about the hungarian part?

Posted by: Dénes September 28, 2007 06:35 pm
QUOTE (21 inf @ September 29, 2007 12:26 am)
Just as academic interes, because one cant find reports on romanian literature about the events as above done by romanians, are there any mention in hungarian literature about such events like the much mentioned Ip/Traznea, or Marca, Cerisa and so on?

Yes. For example, those events you're referring to are mentioned, in details, in a scholarly written book I have posted here information about earlier:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2026&view=findpost&p=40334

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf September 28, 2007 06:42 pm
i dont have the book.
"Transylvania on War Path"-your description says that it speakes about military actions.

Posted by: Dénes September 28, 2007 06:50 pm
That hard cover book is quite cheap, about 5 Euros. You could try to find it somewhere on-line, particularily as I've read that you know some Hungarian.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: mateias December 10, 2007 10:10 pm
For Gen. Denes and Takacs Peter,

I wonder what do you think of the massacre from Sarmas (Sarmash) in 1944. Do you think the culprits were from another planet ? Did somebody punish them ?

Source: http://isurvived.org/Romania-Holocaust_Sarmas.html

Holocaust Survivors' Network
iSurvived.org



The Holocaust within the territories of Romania: Take Sarmas

Photo Exhibit



Memorial to Jews massacred at Sarmas, Romania in 1944
Photo Credit: Scott Edelman
(The United States Library of Congress Archives)



Posted by: Dénes December 11, 2007 08:35 pm
QUOTE (mateias @ December 11, 2007 04:10 am)
Do you think the culprits were from another planet?

I am sorry, Mateias, but stupid questions only warrant stupid answers. I refrain to give you one such answer and ask you instead to contribute to this serious and sombre thread with new and relevant information, not mockery. dry.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: mateias December 11, 2007 09:24 pm
Congratulations, Denes. It's quite clear that for you those unfortunate Jews from Sarmas are not human beings. I lived to see this in the 21st century. I wonder what says the forum administrator on your ideas. That "mockery" image is from the American Library of Congress. You do not deserve any more reply, at least not on this topic.

Posted by: Dénes December 11, 2007 10:09 pm
Mateias, don't distort the facts and attempt to label me with anything! mad.gif

When I said 'mockery', of course I was not referring to the photos you posted, but clearly to your peculiar sentence, explicitely stated on the top of my earlier post, namely:
QUOTE (mateias @ December 11, 2007 04:10 am)
Do you think the culprits were from another planet?


I think this is clear to anyone, but you...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Victor December 12, 2007 09:31 am
mateias,

This is a sensitive topic and there is no need to inflamate it by posting in an aggressive manner. We are all adults and I think we can act accordingly. This is not Romania Mare and pamphlets are not encouraged.

A post was moved to http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2466, because it obviously belonged there.

Posted by: mateias December 12, 2007 12:52 pm
For Victor,
You are right. The Romanian army killed Jews at Sarmash in October 1944. This is the final proof: the link to the Hungarian site quoted quite often by Denes and his other friends.



http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/genoci/genoci04.htm

PRESS REPORTS
The Sarmas Massacre

Transylvanian World Federation
Geneva, Switzerland

TWF, Geneva, Switzerland ¬ A refugee from Sarmas, Transylvania, residing now in Switzerland, whose name cannot be made public for well¬known reasons, testified in front of a Geneva judge concerning the "Sarmas Massacre of October 1944. Here is part of his testimony:
"I was fourteen years of age when my entire family was killed. We lived in a town named Sarmas, in Transylvania, My father was a tinsmith. We were Hungarians. Sarmas was a Hungarian town..."
"THE RUMANIANS CAME BACK ON A SUNDAY. It was in mid¬October. I don't know the date, but it was Sunday. My mother wanted us to go to church, but father said no, we better stay home. There may be some trouble, he said. We heard shots from the direction of Bald. Many shots. We saw some German trucks coming down the highway, rushing through the town and disappearing Northbound. I remember my father saying that the war was over..."
"THEN WE SAW THE RUMANIAN SOLDIERS COMING AT US FROM EVERYWHERE. Along the highway, across the meadows, across the cornfields, and even from the hilltop they came, across the pastures. They were firing shots everywhere. I couldn't see any enemy in front of them, but they were still firing..."
"They chased the Hungarians out of their houses, and herded them down toward the market¬place, like sheep. We hid in the house, and locked the door, but they broke it down. Mother begged them to leave us alone but they kicked her in the belly. My father got mad and reached for the axe. One of the soldiers shot him, and he fell. Then we were chased out of the house, my mother, my grandmother and my five brothers and sisters. My youngest sister was only three, and she was holding onto mother's skirt, screaming. Mother was screaming too, and everybody else..."
"I fell into a ditch. The ditch was full of weeds and nobody could see me. I was just lying there in the weeds, I was trembling..."
"Then I heard the shots, down at the marketplace. Many shots. Screams and more shots. And then everything was quiet. I have never seen my family again. The soldiers ordered the rest of the Hungarians to dig a hugh hole in the Szasz cornfield and bury all the dead. THERE WERE 134 BURIED THERE, THAT DAY..."


In fact, this is a thread opened and discussed a lot by many others and I am not interested at all in it. However, it's good for everbody to understand how propaganda works, even now. Bye, this thread.








Posted by: 21 inf January 03, 2008 07:46 pm
About Sarmas:

1. The articles found on this link http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/genoci/genoci04.htm are only hungarian propaganda made in the old fashion as they used to made it: hungarians are only victims of their neighbours, especially romanians; a great nation (hungarian) is the inocent victim of Trianon diktat; romanian killed hungarians everywhere; romanians killed hebrews everywhere; the gifted and peacefull nation of Hungary is killed even nowadays by romanians; they are killed culturally, by language and so on.

2. "in the Jewish cemetery in Sarmas, where the victims of a 1944 mass murder of Jews by Hungarian fascists are buried." source: Tel Aviv University, Stephen Roth Institute.
I visited that cemetery 4 years ago and on the great stone it is written the same: Hungarians killed that poor hebrew civilians.

Posted by: mabadesc January 04, 2008 02:17 am
QUOTE
The articles found on this link http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/genoci/genoci04.htm are only hungarian propaganda...


I haven't read the entire body of work, so I cannot state my opinion yet, but the articles are certainly quite suspicious.

One particular article is entitled "The White Book. Atrocities against Hungarians in the Autumn of 1944, in Transylvania, Romania".

In the article, the author refers to General Macici as "the blood-stained leader of the massacres in Bessarabia"

http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/feher/feher.pdf


Posted by: pet32 January 11, 2008 12:51 pm
Dear all,

I'm sorry to disappoint you but all the crimes committed by Hungarian nationals with or without the approvals of their authorities between 1940-1944 are not war crimes as till 1944 the status between Romania and Hungary was PEACE, so they can be consider as crimes against humanity, or genocide.

Regarding Secicar Frantz as far as I read it in "IAR 80 story of the unknown hero" it is related as follows:
Shot down 25 September, found at Dealu Feleacului by Romanian soldiers, hanged by his feet beaten and Skeen alive, from local inhabitants accountings he was captured by Hungarian troops and executed by a squad of Hungarian Crosses with Arrows

Regarding the Hungarians crimes as far as I know there was an ample and well documented memorandum prepared by Iuliu Maniu and his party during the war, so hm I don't think you can accuse him of being ultra-nationalistic. smile.gif

Regarding war crimes my opinion is that there is no war without war crimes but at the end of all wars only the one who loses the war will be judged for his crimes, as the winner is the one who is writing the official history, the loser sources are dismiss as nationalistic, extremist, etc. As an example of recent history we can all remember Katyn.

Posted by: Dénes January 11, 2008 01:53 pm
QUOTE (pet32 @ January 11, 2008 06:51 pm)
Regarding Secicar Frantz (...) he was (...) executed by a squad of Hungarian  Crosses with Arrows

This cannot be true, as the extremist Arrow Cross regime came into power in Hungary only after Horthy's futile attempt to exit his country from the war on October 15, 1944.

I would not comment the rest.

Gen. Dénes

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