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|Posted by: padre February 07, 2005 01:04 pm|
Erou intre dusmani
Povestea celui mai faimos ofiter roman care a luptat de partea trupelor SS impotriva bolsevicilor
Duminica, 06 Februarie 2005
La 23 august 1944, Ion Toba Hatmanu, maior al Armatei Regale, se afla in Germania, la un curs de vinatori de tancuri. Ca multi alti camarazi, a ales sa lupte alaturi de trupele germane impotriva trupelor rusesti bolsevizate, convins ca nu isi calca nicicum juramintul militar. Caracterizat de comandantii sai inca de cind se afla pe bancile scolii militare drept “element prea bun, inteligent, vioi, disciplinat si de incredere, autoritar in comanda si chiar sever atunci cind trebuie”, in scurt timp Ion Toba a devenit cel mai temut vinator de partizani comunisti. S-a achitat de sarcina cu brio, stirnind admiratia germanilor, ceea ce i-a determinat sa-i puna in subordine doua companii germane, plus un batalion de voluntari tatari. Incarcat de glorie, primeste porecla “Hatmanu”, i se inchina cintece, deopotriva germane si romane, in schimb comunistii, neavind alt mijloc de a-l lichida, pun un premiu pe capul sau. O parte din romanii care au luptat pina la ultima picatura de singe impotriva comunismului au fost incadrati in “Jagdwerband Kommando Skorzeny Sud-Ost”, sub comanda celebrului Otto Skorzeny. In cadrul unitatii se instruia si detasamentul romanesc de sub comanda SS-Sturmbahnführerului (maiorului) Ion Toba-Hatmanu. Misiunea lor era sa taie liniile de comunicatie in spatele frontului inamic si sa dezorganizeze legaturile inamicilor, mai exact trupe de comando. Membrii acestei formatiuni au rezistat pe baricade, in Germania, mai precis in Muntii Tirolului, pina in ultimele clipe ale semnarii capitularii si, dupa cum afirma Hatmanu in jurnalul sau, multe zile dupa aceea, intrucit nu primisera nici un ordin. Istoria fascinanta a acestui grup putea ramine insa anonima daca soarta nu ar fi facut ca jurnalul lui Toba Hatmanu sa-i cada in mina lui Dan Giju, redactor-sef al “Vietii Militare”. Istoric si scriitor prolific, autor al remarcabilelor carti “Pumnul de fier” si “Diribistii”, maiorul Dan Giju a avut amabilitatea de a ne oferi citeva fragmente din cartea-document “Istoria o scriu invingatorii”, in pregatire la Editura Phobos, Bucuresti, care descrie epopeea celui mai faimos conducator al trupelor de comando romanesti.
Brasov, 28 septembrie 1974. Ziua cind, pe la ora zece, trei ofiteri din Inspectoratul Judetean Brasov al M.I. au sunat prelung la usa locuintei de pe strada Poarta Schei nr. 25. In baza consimtamintului scris al numitului Toba Ion, nascut la 10 iulie 1903 in comuna Zavoaia, judetul Braila, cu ocazia perchezitiei au fost gasite si ridicate mai multe documente si manuscrise. In plus, Ion Toba a mai predat un numar de opt fotografii care-l reprezentau in uniforma
SS-ului, alte cinci fotografii reprezentindu-l tot in uniforma SS, in grup cu ofiteri din Waffen SS, o fotografie cu dedicatie de la Otto Skorzeny, in uniforma SS, si, in fine, bine cunoscuta decoratie “Crucea de Fier”, pe care o primise in Crimeea, de la feldmaresalul Erich von Manstein.
Cu toata experienta lor, ofiterii de securitate brasoveni aveau sa rateze insa confiscarea celui mai important document, anume Jurnalul de razboi al “Hatmanului” Ion Toba. Verificasera tot, pereti, tavan, dusumea. Un singur lucru nu le trecuse prin minte: ca respectabila doamna trecuta bine de 80 de ani, care privise absenta pe geam tot timpul cit durase perchezitia, apucase, in rastimpul cind gazda s-a aflat la usa, sa ia de pe biroul de lucru al acestuia registrul nu foarte voluminos si sa se aseze pe el.
La mai bine de un sfert de veac de la disparitia autorului sau, Jurnalul “Hatmanului” Toba vorbeste. De pilda, iata ce consemneaza despre momentul cind primise periculoasa misiune de a stirpi bandele de partizani sovietici care bintuiau prin Muntii Iaila (Crimeea), in spatele liniei frontului romano-german:
• 6 august 1943. Catre ora doisprezece - mare fierbere in sat. Un partizan risca sa stea in drumul patrulelor si este prins. Adus la mine, ordon executarea. Pistolul-mitraliera isi spune cuvintul. Drept in inima. Ca dupa o jumatate de ora sa fie in pamint.
Cealalta fata a lui 23 august
Ce-i drept, au fost si situatii, nu putine, cind nimeni nu si-ar fi dorit sa fie in locul lui Ion Toba Hatmanu. Cum s-a intimplat in cruciala zi de 23 august 1944, de pilda, cind Ion Toba, in momentul acela maior al Armatei Regale, se afla in Germania, la un curs de vinatori de tancuri (care de lupta). Pe 11 septembrie, cursul se termina si ar fi revenit in tara. Abia astepta. Cineva insa nu a mai avut rabdare...
• 22 august 1944. La ora saptesprezece vorbesc la radio si mi se inregistreaza vorbele pe o placa, sa o duc in tara./.../ Seara, la cinema, vedem un film despre campania lui Napoleon din 1812-1813 in Est, intitulat “Focul orasului”, unde este vorba despre luptele partizanilor germani contra invaziei franceze. Urmeaza un jurnal de razboi cu luptele din Vest si secvente izolate de pe Frontul de Est.
• 23 august 1944. Vorbesc din nou la radio si maiorul Klaus Haake imi raspunde foarte frumos. Totul e inregistrat pe discul patefonic.
Am inceput cursul de tactica. Facem o tema cu angajarea divizionului de vinatori de care in situatia de a stapini pe timp limitat un cap de pod, avind in sprijin si alte unitati. Miine, ofiterii mei din artilerie pleaca la Grosshauz, in Pomerania, pentru citeva zile. Ramine sa terminam cursul tot pe noua septembrie ‘44 si apoi sa plecam in tara. (...)
Seara mergem la teatrul de variet?. Cind iesim, aflam comunicatul extrem de alarmant, anume ca trupele anglo-americane sint la portile Parisului, iar in rasarit rusii au patruns adinc, in doua locuri, la Sudul Basarabiei si in directia Chisinaului. Baietii discuta cu aprindere si fac ipoteze. Mergem la harta. Ramin singur. Tirziu ma gindesc si eu serios la chestiunea aceasta. Daca porcii astia de bolsevici imi cotropesc tara, ramin in munti, ca partizan. Pacat ca nu sint acum in tara, sa vad ce este de facut! Adorm tirziu si azi.
“Nu ma poate nimeni aresta”
• 24 august 1944. Zi trista, mohorita. Intram la curs de la ora sase si facem lectii de zor. Pe la ora unsprezece, alarma mare, prelungita. Se suspenda studiile si trecem spre case. Ma opresc in parc. Timpul revine, cerul este iar plin de soare, dar albit de fumul avioanelor anglo-americane. Stau pe iarba si ma duc cu gindul la ai mei. Mi s-a facut dor de acasa. Tare-mi este sufletul negru din cauza vestii de ieri, anume ca rusii inainteaza. Ma simt singur in pustiul asta numit Europa. Ma apasa ceva greu. Mi-e dor de toti, de lupta, chiar. (..) Ce aud nu-mi vine a crede. Rusii au ajuns la Roman si Galati. Si Maresalul inlaturat, Regele tradeaza si fuge, armata in revolta, guvern comunist etc. Nu mai inteleg nimic! Se invirteste totul si in capul meu este haos. E grozav! De ce lipsesc eu acum, in momentele cele mai grele, de linga ai mei? Ce pot face? Miine plec la Berlin, direct la atasatul militar. Ce o fi in tara? Ce fac ai mei, ramasi la discretia valurilor?
Ora douazeci si patru. Nu pot dormi. Ma plimb prin vila. Baietii, agitati, vin cu intrebari. Ce fac? “Ma duc ori in tara, ori voluntar impotriva comunistilor, la SS”, le-am spus. Daca as fi in tara, as forma voluntari partizani, in muntii nostri. Ii potolesc pe toti cu cuvinte convingatoare: Patrie, Neam, Juramint, Drapel etc. Toti camarazii germani ne privesc cu compatimire. Ce am ajuns dupa trei ani de razboi? Ce va fi cu noi?!
• 25 august 1944. Pe mine nu ma poate nimeni aresta cit timp sint inarmat si cu constiinta clara. (...)
“As vrea sa mor luptind”
Si nu l-au arestat. De unde in martie 1941, cam la o luna si ceva dupa rebeliune, Horia Sima ii expediase prin curier un glont de Parabellum si o carte de vizita pe care scria sec, lapidar: “Deocamdata numai atit!”, ca avertisment pentru ca actionasem cu prea multa impetuozitate in noaptea de 21/22 ianuarie 1941, la Brasov. Brusc, dupa 23 august 1944 avea mare nevoie de serviciile lui pentru ca pusese pe picioare o noua armata. Pe undeva, cam ceea ce urmarise Stalin in anul 1943 prin crearea Diviziei “Tudor Vladimirescu”, respectiv “Horia, Closca si Crisan”, urmarea de asta data Hitler. “Hatmanu” intra in joc, ferm convins ca va ajunge sa comande unul dintre regimentele Armatei Nationale de la Viena. Fara sa stea prea mult pe ginduri, cu energia care-l caracteriza, porneste la recrutarea soldatilor, dar, mai ales, a cadrelor (...). In final, “Hatmanu” ajunge in tabara legendarului Skorzeny, acolo unde avea posibilitatea sa faca exact ceea ce stia el mai bine l 17 septembrie 1944. (...) Aici sint Sturmbahnführer (maior). (...) Ajung iar la Newecklau, si ascult Radio Donau, fiindca nu ii pot prinde pe ai nostri. Ce greu sa ai stiri numai dintr-o singura parte! Am scris generalului Von Alwensleben ca doresc a fi lasat in Muntii Carpati, sa formez echipele de partizani romani nationalisti. Cred ca voi primi aceasta misiune cit de repede. Numai asa voi ajunge sa ma razbun pe bestiile rosii.(...) Pornesc pe drumul asta, sa vad ce-mi va mai hotari soarta. Miine raportez colonelului. Mi-e sufletul asa de pustiu! La radio se transmit numai cintece de durere, insa atit de frumoase, ca-mi vine sa pling. (...) Soseste maiorul de la SS care imi da in lucru formarea primului regiment roman. Pina tirziu in noapte lucrez cu organizarea unui regiment si fac repartitia a saptezeci si unu de ofiteri si junkeri. Timp mort aici la Zwetel Schiff, dar si inima grea, amarita, ma doboara. Si cit de mult as vrea sa mor luptind! Poate am norocul asta si atunci am terminat. Un vis, asta e viata unui om.
“Ma retrag in munti”
• 19 februarie 1945. (Pagina cu autografe). In prezenta marilor nostri sefi depunem azi legamint de credinta pentru lupta noastra sfinta spre salvarea si dezrobirea tarii, pentru incadrarea ei nationala (...) Cu gindul la Patrie, inainte! Ziua de azi, 19 martie 1945, va ramine ca sarbatoare pentru “Vinatorii Carpatilor”. Dedesubt Hatmanu va completa satisfacut: Am impacat lucrurile, deci nu voi mai avea piedici sa plec cu avionul in tara. Acolo ajuns se va sti ca am lucrat sapte luni de zile singur si cum m-am zbatut, inconjurat numai de nesiguranta si de minuitori. Tara trebuie ajutata, sistemul nu intereseaza. Plec prin Viena la Döllersheim, dupa oameni noi, sa-mi maresc formatia la maximum. (...)
• 1 mai 1945. Plec si ajung in timpul mesei la Ruhstern, cu rucsacul plin cu conserve pentru depozitare. Aud stirea cu Mussolini si apoi de lupta si moartea lui Adolf Hitler; Dönitz inlocuieste, e inlocuit si Ribbentrop. Moga il aduce pe Rottlender si inca doi baieti noi. Dorm pe cota, la H.
• 2 mai 1945. Horia Sima a dizolvat Guvernul, lupta continua. Se anunta ca Himmler ar fi fost la o conferinta cu anglo-americanii.
• 3-8 mai 1945. Ruptura completa cu Legiunea si armata. Ma retrag in muntii Austriei, sa astept ofensiva rusa.
• 8 mai-8 iunie 1945. N-am mai putut scrie fiindca tot ce am trait si vazut, pe zile si ore, nu pot uita niciodata si pot rememora oricind, intocmai ca in clipa cind s-a petrecut; ceva de nedescris ce voi putea pune cindva pe hirtie. Acum am acte si incerc drumul spre tara. Apuc spre vest, spre Tirol, apoi prin Greim, inapoi, pribeag in tara straina. E prea mult si nu pot scrie acum fiindca ma framinta ideea intoarcerii in tara. Va veni poate ziua cind voi putea scrie totul. Sau poate nu va veni niciodata! Mai devreme sau mai tirziu ma voi sfirsi intr-un fel, asa cum scriu in prima pagina. Dar daca ajung tinta, se va sti - trag nadejde - adevarul faptelor mele: acela de a nu fi avut drept tel decit sa-mi servesc tara si pe ai mei. Cu bine! Rog, cind nu voi mai fi in stare sa ma ridic, acest album scris al vietii mele sa fie trimis in tara “Asociatiei Cercetasilor de Razboi 1916-1919”, strada Orlando, numarul 5, Bucuresti.
Ion Toba a ajuns totusi in tara, cu jurnal cu tot, dar si cu o misiune secreta, o noua misiune specifica numai unuia ca el. Judecat de Consiliul generalilor, achitat si repus in drepturi, Ion Toba-Hatmanu nu va apuca sa se bucure prea mult de libertate. Pentru Romania incepea “Era comunista”. Iar pentru unul ca el - calvarul. (Dan Giju)
Juramintul contra comunismului
• 4 noiembrie 1944. (...) Eu nu vad numai invingerea bolsevicilor, ci cit mai repede eliberarea Romaniei. Batuti si aruncati peste Nistru e tot ce vreau azi. (...) Ma duc in curind la Viena sa fac un ultim efort si daca nu voi fi inteles plec in alta parte, sa lupt singur, cel putin sa mor luptind. (...)
• 17 februarie 1945. O zi grea se anunta. Programul meu de lucru si planul de organizare au ajuns pina la Skorzeny, Benesch si H S (Horia Sima - n.r.); merge bine, primit cu admiratie. (...) Grele zile de incercare. Dar parca nu simt pericolul, din contra, mai tare ma indirjesc. Cred ca voi putea conta pe baieti. (...)
• 19 februarie 1945. Pregatim juramintul, cu drapele, figuri si aranjamente cerute de solemnitatea momentului. Apoi asteptam oaspetii. Programul mai jos. La ora unsprezece si zece au sosit Horia Sima si generalul Chirnoaga, plus Borobariu; dau raportul, apoi revista de front. Compania germana a locotenentului König prezinta onorul. Eu trec in fata si depun singur juramintul, apoi trag sabia si jur; patru ofiteri se prezinta si toti, dupa mine, repeta formula. Apoi se cinta “Glorie tarii” si “Deutschland über alles”, dupa care vorbesc eu, maiorul Benesch si generalul. In cadrul solemn, figurile baietilor mei par statui cioplite in piatra. Urmeaza, in cabana mea, conferinta documentara. Participa Horia Sima, generalul, eu, Benesch, locotenentul Müller, adjutantii lui Benesch si al meu. Se pune totul la punct. Desfasor planul meu de activitati, apoi maiorul Benesch subliniaza chestiunile la ordinea zilei. (...) Pleaca toti multumiti, dupa ce le-am luat un autograf pe fila ce urmeaza. Dupa masa fac o plimbare de recunoastere spre Reich-ul lui Marthel; e in plina sedinta de instructie si vorbim numai cu seful reflectoarelor germane, ca sa pornim prin ultimile ramasite de zapada spre cabana mea. Ce or fi facind ai mei?
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 07, 2005 08:51 pm|
| Good article, when i have time ill translate it in English.
(=> this is the only book I know that deals with this Subject)
|Posted by: padre February 09, 2005 02:50 pm|
| Der Maresal,
Please how I can see this book? Is very important for me.
Florian BICHIR (padre)
editor "Evenimentul Zilei de Duminica"
|Posted by: Benoit Douville February 09, 2005 07:08 pm|
| I am also waiting for the translation of this article and I am also interesting about this book dealing with the Romanian in the Waffen-SS.
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 10, 2005 05:02 pm|
| That book will be hard to find.
I know it has been on Ebay for some time, it is written by Richard Landwehr, probably a german I think.
If you know 'Geto Dacul' on this forum, he has this book and may be able to help you.
From I've been hearing from this book, amongst other things was that when the Romanian units finally surrendered to the US forces at the end of the war, they were ill treated, hummiliated and guarded by black soldiers (on purpose) as this was how the US army had decided ss prisonners should be taken care of.
It must be an interesting book, I also have the cover of the Spanish version of the book. "Il Ejercito National Rumano"
I never knew...
Interesting articles you have, on Chirnoaga, Toba.. (I've printed your article on General Chirnoaga and passed it to my grandmother which after reading said .."these were the real men, not the ones we have today"
keep in touch -
|Posted by: Benoit Douville February 10, 2005 09:45 pm|
| I know Richard Landwehr and he is a great Historian known for his famous work "The Stalingrad of the Waffen-SS" about the Battle of Budapest.
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 11, 2005 12:56 am|
| This you would want to buy -
The SS magazine of those days titled 'Siegrunen'
The no. 55 edition features:
In this issue: SS-Unterscharfuehrer Kaspar Sporck, The Stand at Lushno - SS' Totenkopf' Division in battle, September 1941, Ukranian Volunteers in other Waffen-SS divisions, Officers in the 1st Romanian SS Regiment plus Waffen-SS miscellany
get it before it dissapears: http://www.tmhbs.com/topic_siegrunen_P2.htm ~ £15.00
well worth it
|Posted by: padre February 11, 2005 09:11 pm|
| Thanck you Der Marechal
|Posted by: mihai February 12, 2005 12:56 pm|
| Is this book out of print?
|Posted by: VLADTEPES February 16, 2005 11:09 pm|
I WORK WITH MINISTRY OF INTERIOR IN BUCURESTI....I WILL NOT DISCLOSE MY NAME BECAUSE IS NOT RELEVANT .......................BUT .....................60 YEARS AFTER WWII END THERE ARE STILL A LOT HIDDEN CONVINCED NEO NAZZIES , FASCIST FUNS AND EXTREMISTS MILITANTS LEFT IN RUMANIA WHO WITH PLEASURE WOULD KILL ,RAPE AND COMMIT ATTROCITIES IN THE NAME OF THE "BLUE BLOODED" ARIANS AND COMMIT ATTROCITIES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.....LIKE YOUR BROTHERS COMMITED IN CRIMEA AND BASARABIA.
AS A MATTER OF FACT YOU ARE BOUNCH OF INTERNET BIG MOUTHED TALKERS AND COWARDS TALKING A LOT SHIT UNTIL SOMEONE IS GOING TO LOCATE YOUR IP ADDRESS AND LOOK FOR YOUR RESIDENCES....AND GET YOU IN A PLACE BEHIND BARS UNTIL YOU GET TO FEEL WHAT MEANS TO BE HUMILIATED.....
NOW YOU UNDERSTAND ON WHY THE RUSSIANS HAVE DEVASTED SO BADLY ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL COUNTRIES IN EASTERN EUROPE AND LATER THE ROUMANIAN COMMUNISTS KEPT YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES OVER 30 YEARS WITH THE NOSE UNDER THE TABLE !!!
I AM NEITHER A COMMUNIST NOR A FASCIST LIKE YOU, THOUGH IF I COULD I WOULD TAKE YOU ALL THROUGH THE VALD TEPES SHARP SWARD OR SIMPLY GET YOU IN FRONT OF FIRING SQUAD BECAUSE YOU DON'T DESERVE ANYTHING BETTER !!!!! BY THE WAY IO AM ALERTING JANDARMERIA NATIONALA REGARDING THE TOPICS DISCUSSED ON HERE !
PS : MR SYSOPS , PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE LANGUAGE AND TOPICS DISCUSSED ON YOUR FORUM
|Posted by: dragos February 16, 2005 11:26 pm|
Unless you have some proofs regarding this fact (which is a bad national insult, not suited for somebody working for "ministry of interior") stop posting such enormities. By the way, what is the actual name of the institution, in Romanian, please?
We sure do, therefor you have a warning for your language.
|Posted by: Victor February 17, 2005 07:52 am|
With all due respect to your grandmother, why would she think that those who did not respect their military oaths and honor, mostly to escape the POW camps, were "real men"? I suupose then that those who did respect them, who fought in a bloody campaign lacking many of the necesseties, having an ally that often treated them very badly and who were lucky to survive only to return home to be humiliated and imprisoned, without knowing why, should be considered "supermen", right? Or just because they fought against Germany they weren't as "tough"?
|Posted by: CB1 February 18, 2005 11:31 am|
Regarding Richard Landwehr and Siegrunen maybe this site would be helpful:
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 18, 2005 10:55 pm|
Maior Toba was not in the POW camp, he was not dying of hunger nor was he "forced" to fight the russians. Chirnoaga too was not forced to fight the soviets -both men fought free-willingly and with conviction.
What happens if it's true that Avramescu indeed wanted to defect with his entire army to the Germans, and thus the reason for his death later ?...
What if a document comes to light (that was not supposed to) and proves that it was true. What will you say then? Will Avramescu for you suddenly turn from a patriot and great general to a 'dissilusioned' 'confused' man who made a bad decision??
Will your respect for him diminish? Will you see him just like the others, Toba, Chirnoaga... a 'fascist collaborator'? Right now, the situation in romania, the National Archive keepers, and historians have an 'interest' that such sensitive facts and others like them ~ don't see daylight. It's not the right moment to release all the facts about ww2.
You like to hear that all those that fought the Red Army after 23 August did so because they were forced too or "were just waiting to throw away their black uniform and go home" - but it is not so.
Maybe some of the lower rank soldiers that were captured and taken out of the POW camp after, were like that... but the higher rank soldiers, officers and all those of the Iron Guard in exile were convinced of what they were doing. They had no where to run away. For them there was no home.
"Home had been conquered."
Why would the regular Romanian Army fight the Germans in Hungary and Czechosloviakia with determination and bravery, and at the same time the Romanians in the SS don't fight the Red Army with the same or greater will ?
In my opinion, a Romanian fighting the Red army in 1945 would fight with greater courage and will, then one on the other side fighting against an already defeated army.
-For the Romanian fighting the Red Army in 1945, the enemy was clear. An enemy that had invaded is country previously 5 years ago. An enemy that his country had fought for the last 4 years. An enemy that now had complete controll over his country and people, and would impose his system and his way of life over his country. (Soldiers had seen the misery and powerty in russia and the results of the communist experiment) nobody wanted that in Europe.
Was that not worth fighting for?
-For the guy on the other side fighting along side the reds, and against a dying nation, there was nothing but confusion. An enemy that had been so for the last 4 years (and may have killed many of his comrades )suddenly became his "friend".
Days of uncertainty awaited the Romanian soldier after the war. Maybe an old photograph with him and some germans would be found and he would be arrested.
Maybe his old romanian version "Signal" or "Adler" magazines would be found and him labeled a fascist. Or maybe an Iron cross he earned would be found and he would be imprisoned for that. Maybe he had warm feelings towards the king, and wanted to maintain the Romanian monarchy, and did not want communism.
Or maybe he just did not like russians, or had some brother that defected.
Maybe he just did not fit into the new system, he would be dismissed from the army, - he had served far too long in the "old" romanin army.
All this going through his mind wile fighting his former allies beyond the romanian border. I would not have liked to be in his shoes.
The future was very uncertain after 23 August.
Think how many faced prison, exile, killed, or simply dissepeard.
-Perhaps our 'government' that switched sides tought that Romania would remain and indepent country - that the russians would reward us for this by leaving us alone and letting him (the king) remain in power, and by not imposing their system or interfearing in our affairs. That was a nice dream.
The king was removed shortly after and replaced by what the people really wanted ( ) marxism.
In the haste and confusion of events in August 44, the monarch and his advisors believed all the cheap russian promisses. Maybe he had no other alternative - but how long did he think he would really last?
We lost the war, let's admitt it. We did not win it by "breaking free from the chains of fascism" as the propaganda made us believe for 50 years. I thought this kind of propaganda had stopped in 1989, but it's still alive i can see.
There were some good times in communism no doubt, in the 60's...but the imediate period after the war was horrible. And we treated our war heroes miserably. We still do; to this day..because we don't want to talk about those '12,000' who fought for the other side...
Not only they "didn't exist" but they are "war criminals" too.
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 19, 2005 12:10 am|
| Oh, yes the bad treatment recieved from the Germans made such men like Platon Chirnoaga come back to Germany (from France) to live the rest of his life there (when there were so many other places he could have gone).
Do you know Romanians that have willingly moved back to the USSR ?
(I know many that want to be as far away from it as possible )
I don't know about that guy's grandfather who couln't wait to go home, these ones here look very different. You think after their oath of allegiance and deployment to the front they simply ran away?? Doubtfull. (1 or 2 documented cases only......) and 3000 dead.
I suppose besides Chirnoaga and Toba, there were others who's names had to be erased from romanian history until 1989..but why after 1989 too?
Colonel Alexandrescu, Commander Bailla, Cap. Dreve & Cojocaru, Iaschinsi, Tanase, Capt. Opriş, Virgil Popa, Stanculescu....etc...
Perhaps Avramescu too would have remained anonymous - had he joined them.
It's easy to criticise them now (yet these were intelligent high ranking men) What would we have done in their shoes back them. Run to the Russians and wave a white flag? Go home cowardly, "the war is lost, abandon you ally"?
That's not the romanian way.
As you can see above in one of the photographs - they are gathered around a Romanian red yellow and blue flag. The other flag is a green Iron Guard one.
No German flags, no swastika, crosses or Eagles no Fuhrer.
And they wear their country's emblem on their uniform, not the Red Star.
leaving that aside...
It's very very interesting, how to have witnessed all the different factions in Romania fight one another. Antonescu and his supporters, his Royal Highness and his advisors, and the Legionnaires of the Iron Guard.
Antonescu during his trial was sitting near a legionary man, he himself had condemned for many years of prison sentence. Now they would both get communist justice.
Generals like Chirnoaga, Toba Hatmanu, may not have been associated with the iron guard, (perhaps they had been against it before, who knows) but now they had to put their differences aside and form an army. (Chirnoaga told the Legionaires personally to renounce the right hand salute and to obey superior orders. What was going through the king's mind when he was forced into exile?
What did he think when he saw the new communist romania, the hammer and sickle, the red banners, posters in Bucharest of Lenin, Marx and Ana Pauker?
Did he like what he was seeing?
The Army, the King, the Iron Guard...they all fought one another and in the end, they were weak, and they were brushed aside.
|Posted by: Victor February 19, 2005 07:50 am|
| For a person living in Canada, you seem to have problems understanding plain English. You posted 100+ lines, without actually answering my simple question. Why are those few considered real men, while others who went through much more suffering, who did not enjoy a life in the West after the war, be considered less? Answer the question please, without starting a monologue.
These were only a few men. Even the members of the Iron Guard were only a few hundread, mostly used as part of the adiministration of the "National Army". The majority of the soldiers were from the 4th Infantry Division of brig. gen. Platon Chirnoaga captured on the Tisza, who took the chance t oget out of the POW camps, just like others did in the Soviet Union. The memories of that guys grandfather are not the exception, rather the rule IMO.
Yes, my respect for him will diminish. But I personally find the theory to be extremely far-fetched. There is no "conspiracy" to keep secret files away from the public, but you can always blame the Free-Masons and the Jews.
I never considered Toba, Chirnoaga etc. as "fascist collaborators" as they were not collaborating with Fascists, but with Nazis. I have nothing against presenting their actions, but it bothers me to see them glorified, while others who did their duty, despite all the BS they had to put up with, are despised and minimized. History should presented like it was, grey, with objectivity, not with embelishments that suit your agenda, especially since you still got a lot to learn about Romanians and WW2.
Now you know what I think? I never said that all had such ideas, but most of them
thought this way and couldn't care less about the ideals you dream they had.
You assume too much. First of all, most of the soldiers in the 4th Infantry Division had never seen Russia, as the vast majority were new recruits. They had no idea what was there and couldn't care less about it. Read the memories of simple Romanian soldiers. They and the NCOs formed the majority, not the officers, even though the officers get to write history. They weren't driven by any superior ideals during the campaigns in the Soviet Union, except for the first month of the 1941 campaign. As I said before the "Crusade against Communism" was just cheap propaganda. I am not sure what stimulated them in the fights in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Austria, after Transylvania was reagained. Loyalty and the sense of duty they were brought up with for some, the will to survive for others, who knows? There were far too many men to say for sure what it was for all of them.
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 25, 2005 12:06 am|
Let's clarify some things here. We were talking about Chirnoaga, about the Romanian officer of those days, not about the SS. No where did I suggest that those that fought in the anti german campaign were lesser men. My grandfather fought in that campaign too, he flew missions after switching sides too, and recieved a russian medal that looked like a red star, i never mentioned that before.
Many did not know what to expect after the war, had they known what was comming many more would have defected.
The desertion rate in the Romanian army was high in the 1944-1945 period. Those that could flee the country did.
So again, "real men", "real Romanians" like the Generals, Maiors, Captains of the Romanian Army in those days compared to;.. for example the politicians and bad folk in general of today - is a valid comment.
Go look on Evenimentul-Zilei website and read the comments made by many Romanians there to both articles. You'll see that many say the same thing. "Few men like these you will find today". It is not just me and my grandmother to think this way.
Haha, very funny.
There is a little bit of truth in everything you know.. and that comment above is neither 'gray' nor with 'objectivity' as you said. Most people (including teachers) have never heard of freemasons, others I see 'simply turn their brains off' when they hear the word 'conspiracy'. If one believes only what he sees with his eyes, then maybe Religion is an abstract thing, and God is "an invention of man", no?
I'm not naive to think that all archives of world war 2 are open and available to the public. Certainly one that has the potential to cause scandal or 'problems' with a 'minority group' should better stay where it is. I'm not talking about the Avramescu thing, (altough the circumstances regarding his death are very suspect to me )
In England most of the correspondence of Winston Churchill or that of the Windsor familly is not accessible to anyone, not even any historian has access to it.
(Maybe there is something regarding the royal familly and their nazi relatives that the public must not know.) In Germany too, like for example the propaganda movie 'Triumph of the Will' from 1934. It's locked behind doors, it's banned.
What is the reason behind that? - You tell me.
When Hamburg was bombed, a firefighter filmed the firestorm with color film and made a movie out of it. He filmed the flames, the rubble, and the "ash/dust" that was left of those the next morning, that had been in the air raid shelters
The British secret service after the war confiscated the film. Why's that?
The Russians - the most secretive -, they too have alot to hide. Everything from secret documents, to the list of executions or gulag statistics, to the 'Schlieman treasure'. It's not accessible to the public, there is no information on it, and it took them 46 years to admit they had it.
So in Romania too, for sure there must be "classified material", secret files, movies, photographs, documents that not only the public is not shown, but also historians have no access to. In every country there is.
Again, they are not considered lesser men, but they who fought on the western front were the only ones to be glorified for 45 years. Those that fought on the eastern front are barely remembered today, while those in the National Army (12,000 or so) are virtually non existent. If you have no problem presenting their "actions" why is there no mention of these on your site? Or maybe 'they couldn't wait to go home, as soon 'as they saw the russians, they threw their weapons and ran' ..'those romanian ss', so their contribution was not that important'.. And why is there no mention of these in Romanian schools?
(Teachers travell to 'other countries' to learn what to teach in Romanian ww2 classroom, that is outrageous. There is no place for alternative history (certain things must not be told) - so maybe my conspiracy theory is true.
|Posted by: dragos February 25, 2005 12:40 am|
So now you put the religion on the same level with the conspiracies. To believe in something without proof, with the excuse the same thing applies to religion...
But they are remembered in actual Romanian history books (see "Armata romana 1941-1945" - 1996). Of course, the level of interest is according to their importance in the general context. If one is interested only in history, and not in ideology, then his focus should lay in the majority of the troops and not in the stragglers.
|Posted by: Victor February 25, 2005 08:41 am|
Simply because they were not part of the Romanian Army in WW2, which is the subject of this site, not foreign volunteers of the Waffen SS, as there are plenty of them on the web.
But you are wrong when you insinuate that I am a hypocrit and even though I say that I would have nothing against presenting their actions, I didn't do it. You have here a link to an older topic on the forum: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=44, which I am curious to know how come you missed it, since you were already a member of the forum (for a week) when it was posted. Furthermore the same text was posted on the old Feldgrau Forum (not the new phpBB version) before that (Florin can confirm it I believe) and was intended to cover the Romanian Waffen SS onm the Feldgrau.com site. Unfortunately, for reasons unknown to me, Jason Pipes has failed to add it to his site for two years now.
And yes, their contribution was not that important at all. One infantry regiment (roughly 3,000 men) involved in a battle of millions of men is a drop in the ocean.
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 25, 2005 11:28 pm|
| I would not mind seeing a bit about them on your main site, just as I would not mind seeing something about the Tudor Vladimirescu or H,C&C Divisions.
Perhaps only a little, mentioned in the operations section.
The later were incorporated into the Romanian Army after the war, while the SS were lead by former Romanian Army officers that had served in Russia (so I think it relates to the army in ww2).
Mentioning something of both sides would not make your site appear like it favours one over the other. How about that ?
The level of interest will grow when more people will know more about it.
Some people reading those articles are hearing that for the first time.
|Posted by: Curioso February 26, 2005 11:27 am|
And why should they support crackpot theories and wild-eyed conspiracy tales? They are secret documents, so by definition you don't know what's in there, and your guesses are just about as good as the rest of your ideas.
|Posted by: Der Maresal February 26, 2005 09:06 pm|
Can't be worse then your Atomic Bomb theory.
|Posted by: Curioso February 28, 2005 09:44 am|
Dear Maresal, mine is not a theory - it's the way the applicable laws at the time are. The fact that you can't spot the difference of that from your unsupported claims (=theories) speaks volumes about your mindset.
|Posted by: Florin March 06, 2005 01:27 pm|
| I have to remind to all of you that the fact that some Romanians fought in Waffen SS proves nothing and it is not such a big deal, eventually.
The questionable politics of the German leadership resulted in the German involvement in too many frontlines in the same time, with so many enemies in the same time (the talent of any superpower ). As a result, an acute shortage of human personnel was felt as early as 1942.
Himmler coordinated, supported and encouraged volunteers who wanted to enlist in SS, from any nationality.
There was a whole division made from French (Charlemagne), another division with Wallonians, led by Leon Degrelle, one with Spaniards (Azul), one having in it a lot of Scandinavians (Wiking).
100,000 Ukrainians were enlisted in SS. There were SS units made from British, in Waffen SS, but also in the branch "supervising" the prisoners in concentration camps (in Ravensbruck, for example). There were also attempts to create a SS unit from American prisoners, but it is not clear to me if this really resulted in an American SS unit.
There were whole divisions made from people from Baltic states (Latvia, Estonia, Lituania) or from the Muslims living in Bosnia and Albania. There were even units made from Indians, some of them acting in Europe, and one unit successfully arriving in India after hiking along mountains, across Iran, Afghanistan and today's Pakistan. These Indians, with their German style military training, were a very important asset for the Indian nationalists after 1945. (In 1947 India and Pakistan became independent. Later Pakistan divided into Pakistan and Bangladesh.)
So, to end, tell me who was not in SS...
|Posted by: RHaught March 16, 2005 02:28 am|
|The British Freikorps had about 18 members. A veteran of the 10th SS told me about his time with the division on the eastern front and in his unit were 2 Romanian SS translators who spoke russian and french. They were then transferred to France with Frundsberg to assist there as well. Just to be a pain, haven't read of anyone from Mexico in the SS. As for the book Romanian Volunteers in the SS by Richard Landwehr, I have a copy and can find them if needed. But after reading it, felt like the author was a true national socialist/fascist. As for the gentleman in the ministry office, come and get me!!! In the US and would love to see you at my door! Because to tell people to stop writing (whether you agree or disagree) is not democratic which means you are no better than the fascists or communists you state you are not a part of.|
|Posted by: ostuf Charlemagne April 06, 2005 08:01 pm|
| RHaugt : You are mistaken in some points :
Quote :"Just to be a pain, haven't read of anyone from Mexico in the SS."
Well actually it was at last one volksdeutsche (father german ,mother mexican) in the Waffen-SS (mentionned but not by name ,in "Forgotten legions" by Antonio Muñoz (www.axiseuropa.com)
Also it was a volksdeutsche from Honduras (whom I know personnally ) who served in the Sipo-SD and it was a 100% central american volunteer (guatemalan or honduran) ,his name was R. Monzon Toledo and he served in 1944-45 as correspondent of the spanish newspaper (phalangist ,pro-nazi and anti-Franco)
"Enlace" ,under the uniform of the Waffen-SS .This newspaper was printed in germany by the "Ibero-American Institute" of general Faupel and all its journalists
(mostly spanish veterans of the division Azul who stayed in Germany to keep on the fight after Franco repatriated the division Azul ) served under SS uniform .
Then it was at last 40 cubans serving within the division Azul in 1941-43 (but that was the Heer ,not the SS....) they belonged to the cuban chapter of the Spanish Phalange in La Habana .
About US citizen in the SS ,I was able to find about 9 of them ....
On other topic :"after reading it, felt like the author was a true national socialist/fascist."
So what ? It is surely not a shame !
|Posted by: Victor April 07, 2005 04:25 am|
No, it's a shame that people still think like this today, instead of finding other causes to devote themselves to, causes that don't promote hate. Read the forum rules and see that we don't tolerate nazism, fascism and communism here. try to respect the rules or you will eventually have the same fate as you had on AHF.
Please use the [QUOTE] tags when quoting other members.
|Posted by: ostuf Charlemagne April 08, 2005 11:21 pm|
| You are getting over-emotionnal ,Viktor .
What I wanted to mean is that either if the author (which I know personnally and let me tell you that as a professor of history in a spanish university and also as a writer ,he is really respected by even the left-wing 'cause he is extremely documented ) is a fascist or not , this does not mean that he is wrong in what he writes ,or that he is mistaken . Period .
|Posted by: Victor April 09, 2005 05:14 am|
| Talking about getting emotional.
I don't know the man, but as long as I am concerned, ideology and history don't mix well. A historian must be objective and such sympathies generally make him biased.
|Posted by: ostuf Charlemagne April 09, 2005 11:22 pm|
|Fair enough ...Here I agree with you .|
|Posted by: Panzermahn April 12, 2005 07:45 am|
Does the book Romanian Volunteers of the Waffen SS 1944-1945 by Richard Landwehr had nay photos of the Romanian Waffen SS collar patch worn by its members?
|Posted by: RHaught April 13, 2005 01:31 am|
Looked briefly at the book just now. Will look closely at the pics but does have drawings of the collar tabs. Do you want me to confirm if they wore it on the uniform?
|Posted by: RHaught April 13, 2005 01:48 am|
| [QUOTEWell actually it was at last one volksdeutsche (father german ,mother mexican) in the Waffen-SS (mentionned but not by name ,in "Forgotten legions" by Antonio Muñoz ]
I too have this book and read it! What page number are you talking about? Also have Soldiers of the Waffen SS, The Waffen SS Encyclopedia, The Waffen SS Handbook, Waffen-SS Hitlers Elite Guard at War, German Order of Battle Waffen SS and other units in WWII. Threw that in because there were countries that didn't have members in the SS. As for Americans, if you found 9 then you must be really better than some of the authors out there. Were large amounts of German immigrants who came received citizenship/changed names and went back before the US became involved or studied/lived here. The Germans counted them as Americans also (this too comes from SS vets!)
|Posted by: Panzermahn April 13, 2005 06:42 am|
Yes i would like to confirm if they were worn on the uniform..Would it be possible if you post a picture of it?
|Posted by: ostuf Charlemagne April 14, 2005 09:54 pm|
| RHaught :
I am not at home now ,but I will get you the page of the book tomorow.
Americans : I am talking of 100% american volunteers like Monti ,Peter Delanney (Pierre De La Ney Du Vair ) ,not of the american volksdeutschen ... (well ,Monti had a mother who was volksdeutsche ,here you may get the ponits ,ahahah...)
|Posted by: RHaught April 27, 2005 01:36 am|
don't worry if not at home; get the points , seems strange but wouldn't most english/american volunteers had been in Germany or joined prior to 1939 or 1941?The one name was also French and not many in the US unless in Louisiana or Canada.
Now have to figure out how some students actually picked Ronald Reagon and the fascist leader of Italy?
|Posted by: ostuf Charlemagne April 27, 2005 11:29 pm|
| RHaught : The mexican SS .Here the reference in Forgotten Legions , by Antonio Muñoz : page 369. Also I have a bit more references of this guy in some others old publications (non-english lenguages ).
About the other ones ; I have wroten a book (“True Believers ; Spanish volunteers of the Heer and Waffen-SS 1944-45” ) published by Axis Europa Books of...Antonio Muñoz . [ www.axiseuropa.com] and I am currently working on many more projects ,incluiding a book about latin-americans volunteers on Axis side .
Quoting you : “seems strange but wouldn't most english/american volunteers had been in Germany or joined prior to 1939 or 1941?”
Logical .....but remember that US Air Force captain Monti deserted flying his P-38 aircraft from Karachi (!!!) to Milan ,Italy ,in ...1944 ! He had to be a “True Believer “ ( in the Cause) to do it so late in the war ...or either he suffered a strong overdose of whiskey J or he got deeply bored by pakistani girls... But the fact is that he ended the war ,in Italy ,as an SS Untersturmführer in the SS PK “Kurt Eggers”,( being captured by US troops while still in SS uniform !) Strangely enough ,he was rapidly forgiven ‘cause of the Cold War and re-instaured as an US Air Force officer and fought against communism in Korea ...before to have his case re-opened by the FBI and was sentenced to more than 10 or 20 years of jail in..1960 !
Quoting “The one name was also French and not many in the US unless in Louisiana or Canada.”
Peter Delanney was indeed from Louisiana and appeared in France ( I think he lived in France since before the war ) and francized his name in Pierre de la Ney du Vair ,claiming he was a Count . He was actually one of the founders of the Vichyst Milice Française in 1943,being the first director of the School of Uriage ,the Militia’s Officers School ( where he exiged so much intelectual-college degrees to the cadets/ candidates that Joseph Darnand ,Milice’s top chief, was absolutely amazed at his teaching programm- this according to testimony of Léon Gaultier , another one of the first founders of the french Milice ,responsable of the Milice’s propaganda and further SS Untersturmführer of the french SS Sturmbrigade . Léon Gaultier ,who was severely wounded at the battle of Sanok in Galicia in 1944 [ and passed away in 1999] was a friend of Delanney and you may find this testimony in the book “Siegfried et le Berrichon “ by Léon Gaultier ,edit.Perrin ,France ,1991)
After a disagreement among him ( and others milicans chiefs ) and Darnand , De la Ney left the Milice and was for a while a lecturer at Taverny School , (the training school of the Gestapo –sponsored french Selbstschützpolizei ) were the activists of the collaborationnist parties – who were specially targeted by the resistance - who needed a gun for self-defense ,were trained in counterterrorism techniques and received also a basic police formation before to comeback to their party with a gun permit , a 7,65mm (.32 auto) caliber pistol and a special ausweiss autorizing the bearer to call for the help of the german police at any time . The best elements of the SSP stayed as permanents ,around 50 of them in each french department (counties) under Sipo-SD command .The other ones were to be ready to any call from the Sipo-SD if it was need of them ....In some books you will find De la Ney mentionned mistakenly as a Quebecquois canadian instructor of Taverny. A total of 5.000 students followed the courses of Taverny - 3 weeks duration – incluiding white russian emigrees and italians residing in France and even a north african Kabyl ( a mountain tribe from Algeria of arian origin ) who had served before in the Waffen-SS .
Then de la Ney and another Milice ‘s dissident ,Dugé de Bernonville , joined major Besson –Rap (ex-french army ,ex- officer of the Vichyst antimasonic police ) and Louis Macé ( also ex-officer of the Vichyst antimasonic police .This antimasonic police ,the SSS ,or Service against Secret Societies , had been formed by Vichy ‘s premier admiral Darlan in 1941 before to be disolved by Pierre Laval who remplaced Darlan in 1942 ,and who , as a professional politician ,had many free-masons friends ....)
Under command of major Besson-Rapp , Louis Macé ,Dugé de Bernonville and Pierre de la Ney du Vair (aka Peter Delanney in the USA) formed the SD –controlled “French Free Corps” whose “official” task was to defend the french territory in the zone of Bordeaux (southwest France ) against any allied landing . It must be noted that ,unlike the Milice (which was not authorized in the sector of Bordeaux because of german intrigues) the French Free Corps was not an official french vichyst unit ,but directly under german control , being a troop of Sipo-SD auxiliaries of no more than 100 men bearing french army uniforms with german Wehrmacht ranks on shoulder clapps .
Delanney / de la Ney was seen in a recruiting campaign among the french volunteers of the 8th company ( a mixed french / spanish company) of the Brandenburg Abwehr’s special forces division . It seems that this was a failure since it was surely much more prestigious for the men to belong to a crack german special force unit like the Brandenburg ,than to the minuscule and relatively unknown “French Free Corps “ , beginning with the uniforms ,for instance . Maybe disappointed , de la Ney , who lived in the sector with his wife ,a french woman , enlisted the LVF in spring of 1944 , with the rank of captain .When the LVF (french legion of the Heer ,under german uniform in the eastern front ) was versed to the french SS Charlemagne division in september 1944 ,de la Ney became a Waffen-Hauptsturmführer der SS ,being the PK officer of this SS unit .After the disaster of the plain of Belgard were most of the division was crushed by soviet tanks , de la Ney was part of the small french SS Sturmbataillon (around 350 men) who reached Berlin in the last days ,for the last stand , were they would defend the bunker of Adolf , being tactically attached to the SS Nordland division ( and this is why Marcus Wendell stated mistakenly that Delanney was an Hauptsturmführer of the Nordland division , in a post in Axis History Forum ).
He was missing in action (surely KIA) during this battle .
Quoting . “Now have to figure out how some students actually picked Ronald Reagon and the fascist leader of Italy? “ .... I am afraid I don’t understand the joke (??)
|Posted by: RHaught April 28, 2005 01:14 am|
| Quoting . “Now have to figure out how some students actually picked Ronald Reagon as the fascist leader of Italy? “ .... I am afraid I don’t understand the joke (??)
teach History and my US History II class picked the picture of Reagan and not Mussolini (was grading papers when I was trying to type)
|Posted by: 21 inf July 13, 2007 09:12 am|
| According to http://www.ssocr.com/webtv_index.html , the
11th Freiwilligen Panzer Grenadier Division "Nordland" was raised from following nationalities:
german, dane, finn, french, dutch, norwegian, hungarian and ROMANIAN.
Fought in Croatia. Russia, Curlandia, Germany and Berlin.
Anihilated in Berlin at the end of the war.
|Posted by: Victor July 14, 2007 11:24 am|
|That should be read as Romanian citizens. They were Germans from Transylvania.|
|Posted by: RHaught July 14, 2007 03:43 pm|
|"Thirty-five percent (35%) of the original strength of Regiment "Danmark" were ethnic Germans from Rumania" as found on http://www.waffen-ss.com/membership/page.php?page=3355|
|Posted by: ion koga August 25, 2008 05:32 pm|
| a new edition in romanian :
Armata Nationala Romana a Guvernului de la Viena
Autor(i): Carlos Caballero Jurado, Richard Landwehr
Pret: 15 lei
Scurta istorie a aparitiei in limba romana a cartii "Armata Nationala a Guvernului de la Viena" incepe in ianuarie 2006, cand am gasit intr-o librarie din Madrid aceasta carte in limba spaniola. Chiar la hotel, in Madrid, i-am aratat-o domnului Ion Marii, bun cunoscator al limbii spaniole si un luptator neobosit al raspandirii scrisului legionar in lume. Domnia Sa a apreciat-o ca este foarte buna si oportuna sa apara in limba romana, fiind in aceasta perioada un gol in cartile scrise despre miscare, deoarece cartea scrisa de Comandantul Horia Sima despre Guvernul de la Viena, nu trateaza in amanunt probleme armatei nationale, ci numai la modul general.
Gheorghe Jijie http://www.librarie.net/carti/96164/Armata-Nationala-Romana-a-Guvernului-de-la-Viena-Carlos-Caballero-Jurado-Richard-Landwehr
|Posted by: Odal September 12, 2008 01:40 pm|
Am cumparat cartea direct de la editura Vicovia prin comanda e-mail. Comanda a fost onorata prompt. In 3 zile am primit cartea.
|Posted by: Odal September 12, 2008 01:51 pm|
|[link removed by admin]|
|Posted by: Alexei2102 September 12, 2008 04:22 pm|
| As of this moment, there are no foto evidences of the Romanian SS colar tabs in wear.
|Posted by: Victor September 13, 2008 08:30 am|
|Odal, please read the forum rules regarding posting links to such websites. Thank you.|
|Posted by: Odal September 13, 2008 05:28 pm|
So you do not read historical material on some pages that have a certain identity politics? In this way you study history? And what is wrong with that site? What is the problem? Frankly do not understand.
Best regards, Odal.
|Posted by: Victor September 14, 2008 11:41 am|
| These are the rules. You don't like them, then go somewhere else. Nobody is forcing you to stick around.
If you wish to add information, you are welcome to post it in this topic, but I will not allow you to make propaganda on this forum.
Your account has been suspended for a week.
|Posted by: Alexei2102 September 26, 2008 07:55 pm|
Source: TESSIN - German Army OOB
|Posted by: Alexei2102 September 27, 2008 11:18 pm|
Source - Tessin
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 08, 2009 04:30 pm|
| This guy joined the SS in July 1944. Unfortunately, no papers were fround in regards to his military career, only his paramilitary one. He was from Hermannstadt (Sibiu), rank SA Scharfuhrer and Kreisleiter (cell leader).
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 08, 2009 04:33 pm|
| He was a receipient of the Romanian Volksdeutsche Sports Badge.
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 08, 2009 04:34 pm|
| Did his Home front service
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 08, 2009 04:35 pm|
| And he was a member of the Romanian NSDAP. The party number matches with the Ausweiss one.
|Posted by: MMM April 09, 2009 03:31 pm|
|Do you have any idea what happened to him after the war? If he survived, of course...|
|Posted by: dead-cat April 09, 2009 09:22 pm|
|actually he's born in Langenthal/Valea Lungă. Apparently he was an engineer.|
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 10, 2009 09:11 am|
|Dunno if he survived the war - must check with Volksbund.|
|Posted by: MMM April 10, 2009 09:33 am|
|Hey! The "waffen-ss" site is not free! Darn! Please give another site, except axishistory (if any ).|
|Posted by: Alexei2102 April 14, 2009 06:45 pm|
|Checked with Volksbund, the guy is not listed, so he must have survived the war.|
|Posted by: MMM April 16, 2009 11:16 am|
|I meant that he would have been "interned" or something like that if he ever returned to Romania. I was just curious...|
|Posted by: Ertogrul November 13, 2010 01:20 pm|
It's obvious that it is about Transylvanian Saxon volunteers, but could someone translate what the guy is saying?
|Posted by: C-2 November 13, 2010 08:19 pm|
|"The ethnic german population from transilvania enroles in the waffen ss.|
|Posted by: chisi November 28, 2010 06:03 pm|
| "In Transylvania, numerous young village natives from the german enclave on the romanian territory are enroling in the Waffen SS."
The location seems to be the city of Medias, Sibiu.
|Posted by: Petre May 14, 2012 06:53 pm|
|Posted by: cainele_franctiror April 23, 2013 04:21 pm|
| Not long ago, in Archives, I saw a folder with Romanian citizens in Waffen SS.
In spring 1943 was a violent campaign for enlist in SS. A lot of young German ethnics were forced (not all) by Andreas Schmitt's men to accept enlisting. Anyway, there were some numbers:
District Timis-Torontal 16.400 volunteers
- Arad 6.700
- Severin 1.602
- Caras 1.153
- Bihor 5
- State Prisons - around 100 (actually, most of them only declared they intent to join SS, they were free and... vanished)
Nothing about other districts (Brasov, Sibiu etc).
|Posted by: ANDREAS April 24, 2013 09:43 pm|
|Thank you for sharing these informations cainele_franctiror! I have a neighbor ethnic german who was recruited during that period! He fought on the Eastern Front and later in september 1944 in Northern Transylvania against our own army in the 8th SS Cavalry Division "Florian Geyer".|
|Posted by: cainele_franctiror April 25, 2013 03:55 pm|
|Very interesting. Did you interview him? How old was him when joined the SS?|
|Posted by: Alan Stroe March 21, 2015 05:47 pm|
| I wrote a novel based on my grandfather's WW II survival story. He was kidnapped from his village by the Germans as they retreated, and interned into a POW camp where he was starving to death. He joined the Romanian Waffen-SS to survive, along with most Romanian prisoners in the camp.
According to most sources, the Romanian Waffen-SS units were destroyed by the Soviets, or captured by the Americans. Well, my grandfather and a friend of his chose to go east instead, returning to Romania. As far as I know, the two of them were the only ones who made it back home. His testimony contained some interesting details that I haven't found anywhere else.
The book is available for pre-order on Amazon, and it will be released on May 1st, 2015: